SPEAKER_00: coming up on this week in startups you and i have a are going to have a difference of opinion i on on lyft versus uber i tend to be you know bullish on lyft long term i was on the board there for many years as we were brawling with uh with travis and crew over at uber and uh and i i

SPEAKER_03: think they've got a you know what's that like what's that like going up against how on earth

SPEAKER_04: that's what i knew for sure i was never going to found another company and i'm like what these guys are going through oh man the the hijinks behind the scenes we could do a whole other

SPEAKER_06: live stream on that yeah that could be a two-hour episode this week in startups is brought to you by nordvpn is improving vpn services globally access content from over 59 countries and stay safe online go to nordvpn.com twist or use twist at checkout to get 73 off a two-year plan plus an extra bonus gift disruptive advertising get one thousand dollars off your first month of service at disruptiveadvertising.com twist and our crowd helps you invest early in pre-ipo companies alongside professional vcs if you're interested in investing you can join our crowd for free at

SPEAKER_10: o-u-r-c-r-o-w-d dot com slash twist all right next up on the program in his first appearance on this week

SPEAKER_11: in startups is jeff lewis he is a self-described spelled entrepreneur and now vibe capitalist who's actually been doing quite well as an investor uh he's with a bedrock capital and has been there since 2017 which he started after leaving founders fund bedrock uh according to pitch book has six billion dollars in assets under management 260 million in dry powder you probably know some of the startups uh canva when we had melanie on the program back on episode 939 he invested in c steve my greek brother from cameo episode 963 if you haven't uh seen that episode he was a great guest too and uh recently we had uh garrett langley on from flock safety and investment i missed but i thought was absolutely incredible a little controversial but overall i think a very important startup that tracks license plates in neighborhoods to reduce crime that was episode 12 49 he also uh led the series b

SPEAKER_15: in a startup called lyft which got absolutely demolished by uber welcome to the program jeff lewis

SPEAKER_19: what's up jason what a what a great intro i thought you would i had to have fun with the intro since you

SPEAKER_11: are absolutely an irrepressible delightful candid uh personality on twitter is that a is that how you've been your whole life just absolutely unfiltered and candid or is this a character you play on twitter

SPEAKER_21: uh well it's neither it's neither uh it is uh it's been a recent development i'd say i'd say over

SPEAKER_23: since uh i'd say 2019 was kind of a turning point for me where i decided you know what i've spent so much time caring so much what other people think about me i i'm just going to stop caring and it was sort of an evolution i'd say it started in 2019 it sort of got accelerated through covet and at this point there's like one stakeholder who i care about which is the entrepreneurs that i work with that that's the only person i care about and beyond that i'm just i'm just myself if we vibe we vibe

SPEAKER_11: if we don't we don't and uh that's kind of the way it is well you know what having independent success as an investor and coming to this realization is completely freeing and will make you a great guest on podcasts at the very least because my i have an x y axis for great guests which is how successful

SPEAKER_10: are you and how candid are you and typically as people get more successful they perceive they have something to lose so their answers become more staged and media trained and then the best guests

SPEAKER_19: or you know chamath or keith roboi or david sacks or mark cuban or chris sacca because as their success goes up their candidness goes up and it makes it just so much easier so uh let's go back a little bit

SPEAKER_11: uh tell me about uh the failed startup and not being able because i saw you talk about this uh in a talk you gave at web summit which is pretty funny uh in the web summit talk you talked about how you wanted to be a legendary entrepreneur and absolutely did not come close you were pretty self-deprecating uh which was charming uh but that that eventually led to you becoming a investor so let's start there

SPEAKER_10: what was the startup you created and um why didn't it succeed and what did you learn

SPEAKER_27: well the startup was ultimately uh this company called top guest which actually wasn't a failure we

SPEAKER_28: sold the company and it was a sort of two to three x for our investors and we made money as founders but on a relative basis it was a it was a failure but we didn't lose anyone's money which is which is always important when you're an entrepreneur at least from my vantage point now as an investor certainly and jcal you were one of the first people that actually uh was pitched the startup okay because we launched the first version of the company at techcrunch50 which i believe you were the co-owner back at the time i was uh and it was it was called uh it was called eudors uh initially we ended up pivoting it uh we auditioned for techcrunch50 in the old sequoia offices yeah and that was a sort of a very auspicious start to a very inauspicious uh inauspicious exit so you know

SPEAKER_00: sort of fast forward two and a half years one pivot later uh no product market fit i'd burned through sort of several team members and there's sort of a what was the original business idea and then what was the pivot people always love a good pivot yeah i mean the original business idea ended up getting executed correctly by quite honestly instagram and pinterest so as you could tag brands and places

SPEAKER_28: in your photos you're trying to create a new photo sharing app we launched about a year before instagram uh or two or three years pardon me and the execution was just horrible i mean i'm not an engineer i'm not a designer i'm sort of like a business thinker type person and we just never had those chops uh so it was about it was about sort of tagging brands and places in your pictures we then pivoted it when we saw that like foursquare remember like 2010 2011 foursquare guala getting momentum to basically be you could uh you could earn uh rewards uh whether they were sort of like loyalty points from actual loyalty programs like airlines and hotels or cash rewards for like checking into places and we called that business top guess ended up selling it to a privately held travel company i it was a brutal pivot it was really like we had a business that didn't work we kind of did a 180 uh and then ended up eking out an exit uh and it was sort of a two and a half year journey from for me from like 29 to mid 2011.

SPEAKER_11: so it sounds like the lessons there were hey design and execution are paramount you had the right idea but you didn't execute at a high level so you never got enough traction and product market fit so that's just a super important lesson for founders why don't you double click on that and expand on it in terms of how you carry that lesson forward as an investor when you work with

SPEAKER_36: new entrepreneurs yeah how do you fix that problem in other words well it's it's it all comes down to

SPEAKER_00: it all comes down to entrepreneurs starting the company and so at least on on our end here at bedrock anything where you uh that's sort of heavily product driven we're digging down we're digging super deep on the on the sort of chops around engineering around product and and design um you know the other the other pieces if you're investing pre-product market fit um you sort of uh i found that you always want sort of a not super great articulation of how the company is going to get to product market fit i feel like the better the articulation is of like how you're going to get to product market fit before you have it the less likely you are to get to product market fit so when i was pitching you doors when i was pitching top guests i had a great narrative on how that business was going to end up transcending was going to end up being huge ultimately i just didn't have the ability or the skill to actually architect that product nor was i successful in building a team that could do that so yeah i was pretty much a failed entrepreneur on those factors not financially but certainly executionally and realized that i sucked at building software companies but it turned out that i you know

SPEAKER_28: felt like i was pretty good at figuring out which other software companies or tech companies that weren't my own were going to work which sort of led to to me becoming an investor a decade ago

SPEAKER_11: yeah i mean i think it's is really important lessons that reflect back to you what i'm hearing

SPEAKER_10: hey you got the ideas right and you had the strategy right and you were so good at the storytelling of the idea of the strategy and that you told the story right so you got the money but at the end of the day that money that story that market has to manifest itself in a product that then touches customers and they have to fall in love with it and if you could go back and do it again

SPEAKER_11: the next piece you talked about was recruiting talent that was elite and that if you are not able to make a world-class product the only other option if you're not a designer ux person yourself or a coder is to be an incredible recruiter of talent and that becomes a deciding factor i think in success if you

SPEAKER_41: look at some of the great idea founders strategists steve jobs had great taste but he also had johnny ive

SPEAKER_11: right and you know uh you can go right down the line with other great entrepreneurs travis you know surrounded himself with great deal makers great product people great designers you can recruit and

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SPEAKER_11: we always get asked as investors jeff what are the qualities of entrepreneurs that lead to success we've identified some of the ones that were successful for you and you were able to get that exit which uh is obviously uh speaks to your ability to tell the story and identify an opportunity

SPEAKER_10: when you carry forward now and you've made these investments are there things that for you you find

SPEAKER_23: important in founders you know it is always impossible to assess the founders outside of the

SPEAKER_00: context of the companies and so i can there's some people out there that are like you know someone like sam lesson who wants to invest just in the people before they have a company so i can't do that i have to know what is the business they're going to build uh and how do they tell me the story and then i use how they tell me the story uh to basically because i'm so good at storytelling i'm so good at narrative i think i have sort of an innate ability to figure out okay what are the holes here what doesn't quite add up and or like really unpack and double click in your parlance jason like every layer of that story and then through that narrative plus like what they've built and the team they've surrounded themselves with it's always like a company specific bottom-up build on is this a great entrepreneur or not and is this whatever gonna go all the way like a few common threads are all they're always cliched so i hate sort of giving the common threads but it is sort of this like there is a real like really long time horizon mission that feels even more important today now that i think sort of the you know public markets are sort of not not looking very good so i think any any company that's going to be valuable 10 15 years from now needs to be building on sort of a very long time horizon and and have an actual like vision that if it works can be one of the biggest companies you know if not in the us in the world so that's kind of what we're looking for now so the authenticity of like how the founder tells that story and the way it manifests through the team members he or she or they have surrounded themselves with is obviously really relevant uh and then i do sort of i am really biased towards people that have some sort of like a something they want to prove a chip off their shoulder not insecurity per se i i think you can sort of select for highly insecure people and that can work in certain contexts but it can also blow up horribly uh you know i'd rather find people that are that are confident but that sort of really do have have something to prove which is which is like super cliched but uh but i think is is true of a lot of these great founders and you know i'd say like garrett from flock it's a company that you mentioned you know we here at bedrock led a very early round there sort of a series a1 have doubled tripled quadrupled down into that company over every one of our funds every one of their rounds he's the perfect combination of like huge ass mission i mean crime in the us we spend a hundred billion dollars a year on policing it's it's not working very well to sort of put it mildly huge market if you can actually be the technology company that solves crime he is motivated by that mission and he does feel like he has something to prove but he's not insecure

SPEAKER_32: so like that is my modal sort of founder product like everything lines up on that company i think

SPEAKER_41: that was the that was literally the company i was going to go to uh to build the example because

SPEAKER_11: if you look at what flock security does for people who don't know they basically build a system that you could put outside of your house or on a road anywhere or on a a phone pole a lamppost that will uh have a small computer in it with a camera it reads license plates it puts those license plates and time stamps essentially the metadata not pictures of the people because they care about privacy and then if you put these into your neighborhood crime goes down 50 percent 75 because when people commit crimes in neighborhoods they typically drive a car in now you have every single license plate that's coming to that neighborhood they typically keep it on for 60 to 90 days it's not infinite uh and when there's a crime they can look and say who drove down main street who drove to 7th street what were the license plates they can identify the license plates of the people who live in that

SPEAKER_10: neighborhood and neighborhoods are buying these and individuals are buying them uh and it is just one one of the perfect ways as you said if you think about a 10 or 20 year mission my lord making a neighborhood

SPEAKER_11: safer through these cameras is is a mission that's going to take decades and who doesn't want to live in a more safe community and we care about privacy but you could tell when i talked to him you know garrett he was very attuned when you talked about storytelling not only of why this is important obviously people want to be safer but he was incredibly thoughtful and considered about the details and i think to build on your assessment when somebody really does care deeply about the mission and they tell the story correctly inevitably they have thought through each of those edge cases and details and they have a thoughtful answer to it that you may not agree with but i don't know if you've had this experience with founders but every question you can think of they've already thought it through they've got the answer now they're going to test it it may or may not be right but that was what i loved about that particular investment that man i'm super jealous that you were able to get in that one early because i was literally going to buy it for my neighborhood after we had a series of break-ins and uh he told me oh yeah by the way i just looked up your zip code um yeah we worried

SPEAKER_41: we're talking to them we're talking to your police department in your in your town so congratulations

SPEAKER_11: on that one when you look at cameo and you look at canva when did you engage with those companies what

SPEAKER_00: did you love about those founders and their mission sure well i can't take any credit for for the cameo investment that was my partner when my partner's here at bedrock who found that but i i loved i i

SPEAKER_23: love the founder steve i felt like he was someone who was just going to be underestimated by uh by by investors because he's you know he's a real person okay so so many people out there are just are just like uh these sort of like facts like not real they're just sort of standard talking points no personality no energy steve is just who he is and it's all out there and i'm like this is someone

SPEAKER_00: who's going to really resonate with celebrities with agents in that entire world uh and and it's going to take it all the way because steve honestly i thought he was a founder who wanted to get invited to all the best parties around the world i thought that was going to be something that was going to be very motivating for him the founder of cameo and in order to actualize on that he was going to have to build a very valuable business and cameo was going to have to play sort of a key role in the entertainment industry and and uh it was just sort of a too dumb to fail idea so sometimes you never want to overthink things like okay letting this sort of long tail of influencers and celebrities have another way to monetize have a way to connect one-on-one with their fans that idea is just too dumb to fail so our thesis on cameo was uh it's too dumb to fail uh and then on canva uh it's actually a huge mess because i should have invested a lot more i mean there's the category of misses that you talked about uh where it's like you see something or you don't see it early enough and you miss it for that reason in the case of canva i invested like a tiny amount personally and then on behalf of founders one when i was a partner there before i left to start bedrock about four years ago uh but did this back in 2015 in the series seed i in canva and if i'd only invested like you know whatever 10x more i would have been just a massive win at this point it's still great but i didn't put nearly enough into that in that one it was just the founders were unbelievable i mean melanie and cliff uh again it's like all the stuff we've talked about already you go through this set of questions they have answers to everything they've thought through all of these things and they saw a market before it existed they saw this huge market of being able to design online very easily not for front-end web development like our other portfolio company versell helps enables or something like figma but just for the everyday use case like a social media manager or an assistant or like invitations or like everyday people so i felt like it would just apply to a broad swat the population but i made a huge error or sin i like to call it sort of my my original sin on that one which is once i knew it was working after the seed investment not like aggressively trying to get more capital into that company over the follow-on rounds and i really learned from that one i mean friends of mine like wesley chan at

SPEAKER_56: felices he did the series a then other people that i know did the series b and the series c and it's like every one of those rounds i should have been like flying to australia to their headquarters like

SPEAKER_32: trying to like preempt the rounds and i just totally dropped the ball there have apple's new privacy

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SPEAKER_11: want to ride your winner something we talk about on the all head podcast over and over again and uh peter thiel actually in the 2015 interview um perhaps was talking about facebook um but just not plowing more and more money into the winners and it was something i fixed in my game when i went out to raise my second fund and then my third fund you know people were like okay you put 25k or 50k into this famous unicorn why didn't you put more and i was like well i didn't have any more capital uh and then since that time we now invest in five six seven rounds just every round we put a little bit more money and try to keep our pro rata or sometimes even go super pro rata and my lord if you invested in the 250 million dollar round of calm.com the billion dollar round of calm.com you would feel pretty great about it let alone an uber which you did by the way you did you did those rounds well with calm yeah we we did put a little bit of money in and then we also took a little money

SPEAKER_36: off the table and you know that's actually a new phenomenon companies like this are growing so quickly that you could have one set of lps that's happy to invest at a seed round but after they get to 50 or 100x on their investment would like some liquidity and then you've got another group of investors who very much want to invest only when the company gets to a billion dollars and they're looking for a 10x and they want to put a bigger check in but they don't want to take all the zeros you

SPEAKER_11: get when you're investing in those seed stage companies so it's actually a very interesting moment in time where you can as a capital allocator be doing both simultaneously you could be selling and you could be investing just different pools of capital and we're seeing that with people with multiple uh rounds of different pools of capital for growth etc i found this one company that you had invested in called praxis p-r-a-x-i-s and they're trying to build a city a country they're trying

David Friedberg: to country a crypto state okay so i is this your jump the shark moment like you're peter thiel i'm going to start seasteading and avoid taxes what is the thesis on this seemingly crazy idea well there's

SPEAKER_73: there's no way that it would enable me to avoid taxes because i'm just a minority minority shareholder so there's definitely no no angle like that there maybe for the citizens of the sad crypto you know

SPEAKER_23: world are they trying to find an island and literally create a new country well it's not going to be a seaside presumably so they're looking for some land yeah they're looking for some land in the mediterranean uh and they're gonna they have a plan to tokenize you know it's one where

SPEAKER_00: so this is sort of you know goes to the another attribute i look for in people which is tenacity and so i met these founders dryden and charlie like three years ago now i think two and a half or three years ago and they just articulated sort of a very different version of this vision but sort of they they had a high level vision that basically there should be a lot more you know innovation on on countries and nation states and the sea setting idea was was interesting but the actual execution of doing it on a seastead is maybe not the right way to do it people don't really want to live on on seasteads maybe but all that said maybe there is room for for more new countries and then they sort of have iterated and innovated over the years with really building a pretty large and hyper engaged online community which you know you more than anyone know the value of having that where they've got i think at this point almost 10 000 members in this in this online community that only launched recently uh really that want to move to this new nation state once it exists that are also uh have a lot of overlap with the crypto world a lot of these folks have done really well and sort of meme currencies and bitcoin and ethereum and other cryptocurrencies and so it's sort of all coming

SPEAKER_56: together now in this vision of can we actually build a crypto state uh where people will move and it's it's not actually about taxes at all it's about uh trying to create a society that's sort of healthier uh where people can live better lives uh more flour more flourishing lives uh with a new uh economic system and a new system of laws and governance built on the blockchain now what in practice that means i have no clue but i like the pitch i like the pitch and uh you know is it worth is it worth putting in a few million bucks and backing backing this team absolutely so we did it we're delighted to have led the seed around there and if it works it's going to be big i mean we would put

SPEAKER_80: that in the moonshot category of absolutely moonshot yeah chances are very difficult for something like

SPEAKER_11: this to work but you just have to ask yourself what if it does that would change the world absolutely okay so for the people who are watching this episode of this week in startups live which we are

SPEAKER_10: increasingly doing live interviews with the guests who are brave enough to do it uh you can if you want to become part of the notification gang which we call the noti gang you just go to youtube.com this weekend subscribe to our youtube channel and hit the bell and then that means you'll get a notification

SPEAKER_11: whenever we go live and if you get in there you'll then watch this episode live or future episodes live as opposed to waiting a day or two for us to process the video and release it to our podcasting stream which means you do get to ask a question to our guests and we're gonna start going to guest questions in just a moment so if you're listening to us live go ahead and put in your a concise question and it could be anything from capital allocation to startups to product to business to careers any of that is on the table let's talk for a moment jeff about valuations and people getting credit for extremely high valuations before they reach the milestones you and i work in an industry capital allocators venture capitalists uh which has traditionally been a milestone based system of investment you get 12 to 24 months of capital you make some uh promises some plans for what you'll achieve and then if you hit those goals or exceed them you then are typically able to raise more capital in order to reach the next milestone in today's market we're seeing people get credit for two or three milestones before they actually hit them you started uh you know five or six years ago in this game and it has changed wildly how are you thinking about valuations that are not commensurate with milestones in 2021 going into 2022 well it's always been the same for me which is i've i've actually been

SPEAKER_23: doing investing in tech companies since 2012 and i thought we're in a bubble on valuation since like

SPEAKER_00: 2016. i've i felt particularly at sort of growth stage enterprise sas anything that can easily comp to the public markets i felt the valuations are generally like way too high and so you have to basically find the few counter examples and you know i think we're in a few of them things like versell things like flock safety rippling arguably the growth stage where there's something really special with that company and the and the founder and the the momentum where a super high multiple can be justified where you can give them the credit even in a correction but basically we've been in an environment where all anyone's thinking about uh is the micro uh everyone it's like oh it's the company it's the revenue multiples uh and if you're a founder you shouldn't be focused on the micro but the job of an investor in my opinion is you have to also think about the macro and the markets and i do think that things are clearly massively correcting so i'm i'm elated to be honest with you jason because i've been waiting for this moment for five six years i thought i thought things are overvalued since 2016 and uh i'm delighted for this moment to finally come i think founders need a moment being a correction and maybe people coming back down to earth yeah it's going to take a while to filter down to where we play uh in the private markets and you know in the case of bedrock and i think uh the stuff that you do it's a little bit earlier stage so like the latest will usually go

SPEAKER_23: here it's like a series d at the very late stage most of what we do is series a and b uh and then you know other weird things like crypto and things like that a little bit of seed but so it'll take a

SPEAKER_00: year or two years to trickle down i think to valuations here be at the early stages but uh yeah there's going to be a correction i i i think because you have the growth companies are just being revalued now by the market given you know all of the crazy macro conditions which aren't news to

SPEAKER_90: anyone we've talked i'm sure you've talked about these with other guests all around the world tech

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SPEAKER_11: up for free today so uh here's a question from our notification gang the nodi gang uh paul asks what's the one thing jeff believes that most people don't believe i guess this is the peter thiel contrarian question is there something that you believe that you find most people disagree with you on

SPEAKER_100: yeah i believe that anyone who's familiar with that question should never answer it so that's

SPEAKER_90: the one thing i believe so i'm familiar with the question i strongly believe that one should never

SPEAKER_11: answer it if asked so that's my answer in other words if you figured something out about how to win at poker best you keep that to yourself if you have an edge why would you ever give it away i've always

SPEAKER_46: felt the same way about that question when people ask me that question what do you figure it out

SPEAKER_19: never answer never answer that would i tell you that makes absolutely no sense um okay uh zen profit

SPEAKER_11: asks a quick question here uh how important is a stanford ee and i'll expand that question for you which is in our line of work in 2021 going into 2022 how important are these ivy league degrees or even a technical degree versus just the overall ability to execute uh making brilliant products

SPEAKER_23: there might even be net negatives at this point um you know and i can only speak from experience in

SPEAKER_00: my case i went to sort of a random school in canada i grew up in canada i didn't go to any son of tools two school teachers i didn't go to an ivy league school or stanford no engineering background it's worked out pretty well for me and quite honestly the best founders in our portfolio i don't think any of them went to stanford maybe there's one exception but when i think about our transcendent founders the next generation that i'm super bullish on they don't have these pedigrees um and and there's a way in which it's yeah it's it's kind of you think that things are going to be much easier than they are if you go to one of these schools maybe and it was particularly in like e or simsis at stanford it's like okay everything's gonna be super easy for me and that has been true for the last decade so it has been very easy as a founder on a relative basis relative to history over the past decade and i do think that it's going to just be much harder going forward and it's better if you're not trained that your your life is going to be super easy that's my one one person's opinion here

SPEAKER_11: yeah and i i can't disagree that you know people who come out of those schools have had uh incredible opportunities presented to them historically but in today's market where you know these degrees are incredibly expensive you might actually limit the risk you're about to take or allowed to take or just practically can take because you're 250 in debt or a hundred thousand dollars in debt whatever it is you can't afford to take a 60 70 thousand dollar job or a 5k a month draw to be a founder because you've got 3k a month in uh you know bills you have to pay on this master's degree you got or your mba it's very hard to take risk and you might have to take this job as an analyst at goldman sachs and just push paper around and do reports as opposed to do something actually creative with your life and most people uh the skills that are being taught in these schools are now so much further behind the reality of what tools are being built uh you know on the edge of technology there's no course at mit i'm certain on how to you know work on the blockchain or build technologies you're going to learn that by going into a discord server or github or wherever or learn it you know in some chat room so

SPEAKER_22: we're both in absolute alignment on that and i will say like to his credit peter teal was right

SPEAKER_00: about that before anyone else i mean peter teal called out this college thing uh really before anyone else did and i think he was with his teal fellowship or whatever back in like 2010 or 2011 and now that's just consensus knowledge that like yeah there's like this huge insane student debt problem with uh with college i don't think you should answer the peter teal question but credit where

SPEAKER_04: it's due on on calling out the college bubble uh very early there all right uh nodi gang member

SPEAKER_113: original og bob g asks if you could invest in one category what is your favorite and why do you have

SPEAKER_11: a top category that you just find delightful to invest in no i don't like categories uh the

SPEAKER_04: the best assets are like n of one assets so it's like you know everything great gets mistakenly

SPEAKER_00: categorized into something else some some category that doesn't really exist i don't like the categories

SPEAKER_39: uh i you and i are in alignment on this one i always tell people you know when i invested in uber

SPEAKER_11: or other people invested in you know postmates or airbnb the concept of on demand was not a term that term came five years later when some analyst or journalist decided to say oh you know what you can get things on demand by pressing a button on instacart and that's kind of similar to airbnb and it's kind of similar to hotel tonight so it's the on-demand economy but that wasn't a category and the only things i can think of are business models as categories so i'm going to build upon bob's great question are there business models ways of making money that you find uh scale very

SPEAKER_23: nicely or appealing for a venture investment yeah sure i mean look obviously like to state sort of a

SPEAKER_00: truism software is super special so if you have an ultra high margin software business that's very valuable um and and there's no other category of asset like that even things like bitcoin which i you know i am quite bullish long term on on cryptocurrency writ large a lot of this is just speculation today um software high margin software is like a one-of-a-kind category business model to invest in i'd say maybe the sort of undervalued version of this would be all of the heat on software for so many years has been you know high margin sass high margin enterprise house i'd say something like what you did with com jason consumer sass consumer subscription where people are consumers they're not companies they're not businesses they're people and they're paying a monthly subscription for software now not media like software you're engaging with that makes your life better like com or like duolingo or businesses like that we have a thesis at bedrock that those businesses you know

SPEAKER_90: there's a lot of those opportunities that are going to be very valuable in the future so like consumer sass is a business model i'm pretty interested in right now and we are here on the team

SPEAKER_41: yeah 100 in agreement after our experience with com we went on to invest in fit mod

SPEAKER_11: which is like fitness as a subscription and steezy dance as a subscription and we did two in music tone bass classical music subscription musician music singing guitar piano as a subscription uh and right on down the line brilliant teaching you math and science physics as a subscription and if you think about it i like how you broke that down which is it's not just music and netflix spotify and netflix those ones are obvious they were the first tip of the spear but after music and movies and television shows people have other interests and just like magazines i always make the magazine analogy in the 90s if you were passionate about fly fishing or bow and arrow hunting or muscle cars or italian sports cars there was a magazine that you could give five dollars a month to 50 a year to 30 a year to have a subscription and then that went away and now it exists as apps or you know otherwise online subscriptions so uh consumer subscriptions are just so delightful they have higher churn than sass like

SPEAKER_36: business sass but you know and i've seen so many of my contemporaries i introduce them to companies and

SPEAKER_11: so many people turn down doing the series a series b of steezy or fit odd or calm even uh because they were like the churn's too high and i'm like yeah but the product is so affordable and people want to try guitar but it doesn't stick for them it's not like zoom or slack or salesforce or you know whatever you know zendesk whatever product people become obsessive with as a sass product that becomes integrated into their workflow it's just completely uh different um question comes in from uh bear script do you invest in competitors in your portfolio i'm going to expand this question to add one which is what do you do when you've got 50 100 300 investments and then you know some new technology like dow's cryptos nfts happen and hey maybe people start adding that functionality into their products and now companies that weren't competitors in your portfolio are now you know pivoting or evolving to be actual competitors it does happen how do you manage that yeah i mean it's it's it's a tricky

SPEAKER_123: situation i'd say like two cuts on it one is sort of applicable to everyone one is specific to us at

SPEAKER_00: bedrock the applicable to everyone hot is i think that sort of ex-ante if you're a vc you shouldn't invest in two directly competitive companies unless the unless the entrepreneurs know that you're doing that and are okay with it so ex-ante we would not day one if the company is directly competitive invest in two directly competitive companies typically if there's lots of competition we don't even want to invest if there's like 20 of the companies and we bedrock have to use our sleuthing skills to find the best one we don't even want to get involved in that category now there is an ex post scenario which you alluded to where like two companies start off doing very different things over many years or a decade converge in that situation it's not our problem look and you know i'm straight up with the entrepreneurs if you guys are converging uh we're gonna we can do information silos we can like roll off the board if you want we can not share information between the two companies we're happy to give up all of that like and just like let it ride but if the companies converge over many years like that's that that just happens in business that's part of like what it means to be on business and then the bedrock specific cut is we actually just don't invest in very many companies so i think that's one of the unique thing with us i think we have less than 50 companies across our whole portfolio across all our funds uh we don't do that much we try and pick things we really like and then concentrate capital on the few winners so we've never actually run into this issue

SPEAKER_25: yet in our portfolio of two directly competitive companies and uh you think that does speak to being a series a series b investor you're placing a very large bet on a small number of companies

SPEAKER_11: to build on your answer when you have an accelerator you're got an exception from this accelerators tend to invest in you know very small amounts of money in a large number of companies who are still figuring out what their products are so we do not avoid uh conflicts in our accelerator unless it's a copycat product which i just find offensive and don't like if somebody just photocopies com nah but we had a company that did you know a story app for putting children to bed so arguably it's five or ten percent overlapping with com and we felt you know we and i've talked to the com founders about this hey if we have people who are adjacent and we invest in them that's actually good because if there is an acquisition down the road we obviously won't share information about the two companies but we could make the introduction at some point and we have some common dna and then for platforms like the syndicate.com increasingly now that we have multiple syndicates unless something's a copycat product which i just did have a copycat product but i said i'm not comfortable syndicating where it's a platform where companies can syndicate their their deals so it's not exactly like i'm picking them but when i do pick them some of the companies i pick some of them are picked by the audience of investors you know if i pick them i'm avoiding conflicts if the audience picks them we're kind of independent about that all right let's take a look at your questions coming in again if you want to ask questions you uh will find out about live interviews live news reads going on when mollywood joins the program in january you'll be able to ask mollywood questions and hear us in our new co-hosting roles uh chopping up the news live every day and in the mornings typically sometimes in the afternoon if there's a breaking news story you can do that by going to youtube.com slash this weekend click the subscribe button right next to it is a bell you want to click that bell and about five times a week six times a week you're gonna get an alert when i go live you get to jump in here and ask questions so another question coming in uh should nfts have a block style ledger to avoid theft and copying i'll expand this question so you can start with aside from this specific question about theft and copying um do you f with nfts do you think that's an intelligent interesting business

SPEAKER_132: model do you think it's nonsense or somewhere in between well i definitely i definitely have with

SPEAKER_23: them um i i created one i minted one uh and sold it on opensea and donated the the proceeds to the the graphic designer who helped me uh make it i assume this was you with your shirt off in an ocean

SPEAKER_88: in hawaii because when you're doing that when you do your vibe updates with your shirt off i was i was shirtless but it was a it was a rendering of me so it wasn't an actual shirtless

SPEAKER_00: photo it was just a rendering god it was the metaverse version of you got it it was the metaverse it was the metaverse shirtless jeff that's right i think i might have been pantsless as well but there was some sort of loincloth or something so i f with them but uh i do i i do think that you know there's the the new stuff now with uh with crypto punks with the copyright stuff i don't really love what's going on there i've looked at sort of like the the board apes and the lazy lion stuff i think we're in very much like 1999 world on nfts i think it's 1999 on the mean cryptocurrencies i don't i and i i lump those together i know they're very different but i lump this together it's 1999 there very well might be real future of nfts i don't think we are in a world now or like long-term massive valuable uh i don't think it's like the next like massive asset class i might be

SPEAKER_56: wrong i would love to be wrong actually not for my own bank account because i mean i'm missing out on a lot of gains but because i think that'd be really cool i think a lot of the people that are engaged heavily in nfts today are just incredibly talented like very interesting people and it would be great for there to be a wealth transfer from sort of the type of people who collect lots of art uh old school art to like the people that are like minting nfts or collecting nfts that would be great for society but i don't think we're there yet um so i'm pretty skeptical but i'm i feel like you just have

SPEAKER_00: to you have to dabble in these things if you if you want to invest because there's always a chance i'm wrong and you can't miss like the next wave or it's detrimental yeah when a when a new technology like

SPEAKER_11: nfts comes out there are more problems and issues and edge cases than there maybe are uh problems that

SPEAKER_41: have been solved and tightened up here at art basal where i am now which i'm referring to as nft basal

SPEAKER_143: because it's more about nfts than it is about art uh really just really wow there's more crypto people

SPEAKER_41: here than old rich people with more money than time looking to spend their last uh you know to buy

SPEAKER_11: million dollar paintings but what the most interesting trend i was alerted to here was the fact that um you know uh people who are running galleries or auction houses have now had a portion of their business absolutely had the rug pulled out from under them which is you buy an nft it appreciates in value

SPEAKER_36: the artist gets 10 of every resale i decide i'm gonna buy this you bought it for 10 000 i'm gonna buy it for 20 000 instead of the gallery getting 30 or 40 of that sale the original artist gets whatever it is 10 or 20 you and i trade the asset we never go to a gallery you buy a hundred nfts you immediately put them all up on openc or whatever other platform and say hey make me an offer or

SPEAKER_11: you put them in your wallet and say i own these offers can come in and you can sell them independent of an intermediary this is absolutely completely disruptive to the command and control that galleries

SPEAKER_36: and art dealers have their business is absolutely going to go to zero in the digital art space they do not provide value in that sense and i was spending a bunch of time with uh mike aka people when i was here the guy who sold the 70 million dollar nft and you know he did sell that through a uh uh sotheby's or whoever one of the one of the auction houses but in the future like people's a brand

SPEAKER_11: people makes a piece of art a day it sells as an nft or they sell 100 pieces of it whatever it is people is the distribution he does not need distribution he is the distribution and it would be the equivalent of you know quentin tarantino being able to produce movies directly for his audience who are buying tickets for it from him right and they just which actually seems like a pretty killer idea now that i think of it i mean if they're trying to do that with music too like with

SPEAKER_119: royal uh yeah i mean that could happen jason like yeah nfts might enable that well music sounds like an

SPEAKER_11: easier one because you're talking about you're not talking about a three-year project to make once upon a time in hollywood for a hundred million and get the actors and spend years making it you're talking about making a song which could take a week or two or three or ten minutes if it's the beatles you know and they're and they're savants they could just be making a song a day you buy the rights to it everybody splits it i mean it's it really is i have to say store of value and money transfer to me more inane not important for the modern world use utilizations i mean i'm sure in an emerging country where you know you have a dictator or currency appreciation and inflation that's out of control those things are very important but for the rest of the world we don't have money transfer storage problems but uh you know these other pieces i find super super compelling you have described yourself as a vibe capitalist the audience wants to know what is the difference

SPEAKER_154: jeff between a vibe capitalist and a venture capitalist well uh you know look it it really is that uh

SPEAKER_00: well it's the short answer is that uh it's it's about uh it's about the energy and the connection with the people and so ultimately um you know the zoom world that we were living in for like a year and a half that world did not does not work well for vibe capitalists uh we like i like to meet people in person uh connect with entrepreneurs connect with teams uh it's about there's a lot about interpersonal chemistry and then it's about what the companies are actually doing or what the businesses are actually doing so like nfts those are those are vibe assets man like there's like a creative energy there's uh it's not about efficiency it's about actually uh creativity and and sort of having the creators capture more of the value that's a positive vibe you know there's there's a lot of companies out there i would argue something like uh like tick tock looks like they're it's about a vibe because there's all these funny videos but it's actually just about efficiency it's about hooking you in uh for as long as possible to like this pointless mindless content and gathering as much data as possible on you so i would juxtapose sort of vibe capitalism vibe companies versus efficiency companies uh and uh and i like to i like to invest in things with vibes and i like to invest in people with vibes my vibes are not right for everyone uh very polarizing vibes uh but if it's a fit it's like a really good fit for life and so that's just how we operate here uh and it basically means that uh we have real personalities we stay what we think in the boardroom if you have a bedrock board member you're going to hear our actual opinion on things uh and uh we might not vibe in which case we won't invest and we'll leave you alone uh but it's just a different approach to how

SPEAKER_10: we do things here uh did you invest in andrew uh is that andrew uh explain that company why you

SPEAKER_11: invested and uh what's the vibe in uh safety security civil defense uh for you as a category

SPEAKER_23: well there can't be any vibes if if the u.s is destroyed by china so that'd be sort of the starting point there won't be there won't be vibes at all if we don't have we don't have we'll be

SPEAKER_00: violence we'll be lifeless and vibeless so that's sort of that's sort of like part one part two obviously that's a founding team with insane vibes you know it was incubated out of the firm that i used to work at founders fund uh that founding team with palmer lucky uh matt grimm brian trey stevens like that's a incredible vibes on the team and then what are they building what are they building well they're building a lot of they're building a lot of stuff i mean andrew basically is uh effectively uh integrating all of the hardware and software into a common operating system it's sort of like an os for defense and then they obviously have like hardware they've got all sorts of pieces to their hardware but like their whole lattice infrastructure sort of integrating everything in defense with this one common operating picture like that's a big deal and they've built an insane go-to-market machine like next level go-to-market machines so like yeah we're not huge investors there i wish we had a lot more capital in that company but it's definitely a vibe company i'd say like quite honestly everything defense tech almost that's not the like old school primes that have been you know had this sort of uh crazy uh sort of cartel on the us defense budget for the last you know 50 years everything other than the primes like raytheon and and those guys are vibe companies anyone doing anything in defense that's a startup i'm like super interested in digging

SPEAKER_41: into because i think it's so important would you invest in drones robots or any autonomous weapons some people have said they won't do that google says they won't support the military uh google has

SPEAKER_11: made a ton of money and they live in a free country but their employees refuse to support the government that gives them the ability to do that i feel that's kind of lame but there is this issue of autonomous uh weapons weapons that can go find humans and kill them without a human behind the controls kind of controversial uh you could be certain north korea china iran other assorted dictators would build them in a heartbeat if they aren't already built would you invest in one of those yes or no well we

SPEAKER_00: no but we have invested in a company that is counter unmanned autonomous systems counter uas called epirus which we are extremely excited about uh this business was incubated by my friend joe lonsdale and his firm 8vc they have a high-powered microwave technology which uh basically has multiple defense applications uh as well as dual use which means like commercial applications as well for those of the viewers who aren't aware but their initial go-to-market is with the u.s and its allies around counter uas using this breakthrough high-powered microwave chip uh so just explain uas again for the audience so yeah it's it's basically like you talk about drones that are killing people so autonomous weapons this is a system that you know shoots down those autonomous weapons not with shooting them but with sending a high-powered microwave beam to zap them out of the sky and it's been tested now you know many many times with an incredible uh hit rate so it's to basically protect us and our allies from these autonomous weapons so if it's if it's something that is going to protect us against these autonomous weapons yes we would invest in it would i invest in sort of a you know weapon like actually making

SPEAKER_88: weapons not sure yet i'd have to check our lpa our our limited partner agreement we might have to make

SPEAKER_33: it's putting aside lpa i mean it becomes a uh really interesting line in the sand i don't have

SPEAKER_88: an answer for it either it really depends on the orientation of the team and what they're who they are working for um and the good guys are the bad guys yeah but that's hard to diligence oftentimes we

SPEAKER_11: have uh there are unmanned aircraft systems aka drones um which don't have humans on them but they're they have humans somewhere you know the thing that's you know obviously coming and is at some point the chinese or the russians or some dictatorship will make a quadcopter that's able to identify um you know the the uniforms of american soldiers let's say or south korean soldiers and let's say some deranged north korean leader decides i'm just going to send drones that are packed with explosives and when they see somebody in this uniform in these coordinates it's going to just zip a 70 mile per hour drone and kill them these are coming and you know if we don't have them the other side is going to have them and it really becomes this arms race like nuclear or what we've seen in space which is you know reportedly some uh authoritarian countries are already experimenting with disrupting satellites in space with unmanned autonomous flying machines and uh it's going to be a crazy world if we're not you know on top of it i gotta think we are uh you know we we have the ability to put a bomb on top of anything obviously and we already have computer vision so all the components are there

SPEAKER_27: really interesting moment i haven't thought it through enough i'll be honest very important sector

SPEAKER_00: with an added bonus if you're an investor of these companies are like not there was no crazy run-up on like defense companies in the public markets and so they are you they are not going to be hit in a

SPEAKER_90: downturn in the public market so it's another reason why i'm very bullish defense technology sectorally

SPEAKER_11: yeah um let's take another couple of questions from our audience what are your thoughts on uh ai do you invest specifically in the ai space or are you uh partial towards that category question

SPEAKER_183: comes from bob g again og bob g i wonder i'm curious who this og bob g is now he's asking interesting

SPEAKER_11: questions basically one of the first 10 people he's got his notifications on he's always one of the

SPEAKER_46: the first 10 to show up for these uh and he's got always got tight questions bob g og nice always

SPEAKER_00: with the type questions mad props bob g um look yeah i look i do think ai plays an important role in the future and and so i a lot of a lot of folks that i know are very skeptical of ai or think that ai is evil or things like that i don't think things are black and white on ai i think it's shades of gray and it can be used for evil we're very far from agi you have to differentiate like artificial general intelligence from just like narrow applications of ai we have several investments that are sort of narrow applications of ai and we also have some some exposure and interest in sort of bigger ai uh projects longer term ai projects and uh i i think it's really important i think it's one of the most

SPEAKER_24: important things that that engineers could be working on and and it's an important part of our portfolio

SPEAKER_11: here at bedrock uh and as we wrap up here that's on the uh market uh turmoil of the last week we had the friday after thanksgiving i think it was the 26th um this new coronavirus strain sent the markets into

SPEAKER_189: a tailspin uh the following strain it wasn't the strain that did it but anyways okay so uh the stream

SPEAKER_11: was announced the market collapsed but i guess you're in for you're basically uh thinking maybe that was the excuse if i'm interpreting correctly or just people wanted to take chips off the table so

SPEAKER_23: why not do it that day without people got loaded people have gotten loaded over the last two years

SPEAKER_00: um you know and there's a lot that fed's gonna raise rates and look like ultimately there's a narrow jeff lewis experience of every time i've sold a stock i've regretted it literally every single time anytime

SPEAKER_04: i've sold anything i've regretted it um that said i don't think that's always going to be true and so i

SPEAKER_24: i think i might end up being vindicated over the next few months and some of my uh my poor sales

SPEAKER_11: decisions in the past so we'll see it is a uh you know when when it is a great company if you believe the company will be here for 10 or 20 years uh liquidating is uh almost never a good idea if it's going to stand the test of time if you were to look at public market companies let's take out the top 10 that are obviously you know we know apple and microsoft facebook tesla google these companies you know we can be pretty assured they're going to be here in 10 and 20 years well facebook's not here

SPEAKER_198: anymore it doesn't it doesn't exist anymore yeah it doesn't exist it's gone already it's gone already

SPEAKER_11: yeah the collection of assets formerly known as facebook but if we look at uh you know everybody else let's call it the under 200 billion dollar crowd the coin bases the robin hoods the pelotons the airbnbs the lifts the ubers the door dashes the instacarts when you look at that cohort of

SPEAKER_200: companies i mentioned some which ones do you think will be here in 10 years and be doing better than

SPEAKER_23: they are today i mean airbnb is going to be a lot more valuable in the future i think it is super

SPEAKER_00: highly valued today like i was just looking at it today because i was like okay do i own too much of this company or what should i be doing and uh in terms of my portfolio of public companies and um i it is valued like more i think than all the hotel companies combined or something at this point so it feels like the valuation is very high but feels like that should be more valuable i'm obviously you know you and i have a are going to have a difference of opinion i on on lyft versus uber i tend to be you know bullish on lyft long term i was on the board there for many years as we were brawling with uh with travis and crew over at uber and uh and i i think they've got a what was that

SPEAKER_04: like what's that like going up against travis hell on earth there's hell on earth that's what i knew for sure i was never going to found another company when i'm like what these guys are going through oh man the the hijinks behind the scenes we could do a whole other live stream on that yeah that could

SPEAKER_11: be a two-hour episode i mean the good news is i actually think both of them have an incredibly bright

SPEAKER_205: future you can't imagine a world in which door dash infrastructure yeah i mean and and they're all no longer discounting they're all hitting profitability and when people actually look at the core

SPEAKER_11: businesses whether it's airbnb door dash you know lyft or uber the the potential to throw a free cash flow from those businesses and the number of people who use it i mean you're talking about tens of millions or even in uber's case over 100 million airbnb this is so these are such large passionate user bases that are only growing and if those businesses weren't there i mean can you imagine

SPEAKER_36: that what life would be like without those companies i mean those are vibe companies they make life

SPEAKER_00: better that's what a vibe company is makes life better those are all vibe companies docu-sign is not

SPEAKER_41: yeah i will docu-sign does seem like a uh you know a feature inside of microsoft word or carta or any

SPEAKER_11: other piece of software i think peloton's a vibe company but it's it's getting demolished because they were just too popular during the pandemic but my god i love that product and they're just such a passionate group of people they may have gotten ahead of their skis and valuation but i i gotta think

SPEAKER_36: peloton has five more products in them i have the hydro and i can't imagine that that's not part of peloton or peloton doesn't build a competitor product i have the tonal system i can't imagine peloton doesn't buy that company or come out with their own smart equipment like that is going to be the default equipment in gyms like i went to a gym that had a tonal the when i was at the austin hotel in uh the proper hotel in austin cool they had the tonal have you used a tonal before my friend is the cmo

SPEAKER_100: of tonal so i'd like to give them a huge plug i should have invested in that company yeah that's great

SPEAKER_19: yeah but here's the great part i go into this hotel you know the hotel gyms are not giant typically

SPEAKER_36: the proper hotel in austin had a decent sized gym and i look and i see a tonal i'm like oh wow that's pretty cool i wonder how that works do i log in i've never seen a tonal in a gym you go and it says if you have a tonal membership take out your app and scan this barcode that qr code i scan the qr

SPEAKER_19: code i kid you not all of my workouts all of my history pops up in one second i was like my mind just

SPEAKER_36: melted and then i was like wait a second is there a peloton tread here and there was a peloton tread but it doesn't do that or i didn't see obviously how to do that but i think that's going to be the vibe which is you move into an apartment building and they got that tiny little

SPEAKER_11: gym that's like the size of a two bedroom and they've got two peloton's two tonals two hydros jason works out look at you know this is the problem with the live audience you guys didn't notice i lost 21 pounds come on give me some credit here live audience is dragging me through the

SPEAKER_218: comments but that to me is the vibe take your shirt off take it prove it you look you look pretty good

David Friedberg: to me you gotta take your shirt off you chamoff and prof g all with your shirts off are like you're

SPEAKER_11: making a super team of capital allocators and uh in six more pounds i will be taking my shirt i'm going to be good i'm just giving people fair warning 2022 i'm going to be wearing a shirt on this week in startups and all in about 50 of the time half the time i'm going to be in a sarong me and chamoff are committing to all in sarongs and so is sax because he's lost so much space listen you're a great guest appreciate you coming on i think we got to book you and uh you put you on the calendar for one year from today we do a catch-up call uh if people want to pitch you it's the best way uh to reach you to pitch you and and what uh zone what stage what would you like to see in a company when they pitch you what's too early what's too late what's the goldilocks zone for

SPEAKER_23: jeff goldilocks zone is if you think you're going to be one of the most important companies in the world want to talk to you and the best way to pitch me is to figure out what my email is and email me

SPEAKER_106: it's not that hard if you're a capable person if you can't guess the email of somebody in a 20 person

David Friedberg: company you failed the first test for me i have to say when people come to me and they're like i have the greatest idea i can't find a co-founder i'm like you done failed the first test son like if you

SPEAKER_11: can't convince one person to come on the journey with you for a bucket full of stock and be your co-founder i know it's not easy but if you don't have the wherewithal to spend a year or six months

SPEAKER_36: finding a co-founder you're just not good enough i hate to say it you're just not going to be a founder because that is not the hardest task in the world it's a hard task but that is not the

SPEAKER_11: hardest thing you will face all right listen it's been a vibe thanks for coming on the show i think we got everything you have a podcast or a book or a twitter handle to plug i gave everybody your

SPEAKER_15: twitter handle before we'll throw it up on the screen one more time any no plugs any plugs you want to

SPEAKER_224: get out here before we go jay nothing to plug peace out thanks for having me all right and we'll see you all next time on this week startups bye bye