SPEAKER_00: never told anybody this but fox uh rupert murdoch uh put in a late bid to buy weblogs inc okay when you already tried when you already had the aol deal on the in the red zone and they were like SPEAKER_02: hey how about plus three million and i was just like how about no like yeah and i just told them SPEAKER_05: like if you're going to give an offer that's 30 more than what they're offering which would have SPEAKER_06: been nine million dollars and i'll consider it but if you're just gonna we're not playing the prices right here sorry respectfully rupert yeah you sold early on that one jake how wow 18 months SPEAKER_10: from zero to 30 million yeah wow dude i needed to secure the bag i mean that was that was the David Friedberg: setup of all setups once you get your first 10 milli yeah you're dangerous that's what i always SPEAKER_14: tell people get that first 10 million in the bank and man just to think how it's been it's all good SPEAKER_16: though all good this week in startups is brought to you by miro helps take ideas from in your head to out there in the world with its ability to democratize collaboration and input sign up for free at miro.com startups netsuite once your business gets to a certain size the cracks start to emerge things you used to do in a day take a week you deserve a customized solution and that's netsuite learn more when you download netsuite's popular kpi checklist absolutely free at netsuite.com twist SPEAKER_17: and vanta compliance and security shouldn't be a deal breaker for startups to win new business vanta makes it easy for companies to get a sock to report fast twist listeners can get one thousand dollars off for a limited time at vanta.com twist all right everybody welcome back to this week in SPEAKER_21: startups it is 2024 and it's monday no it's not monday it's tuesday but we're going to treat tuesday like it's SPEAKER_22: a monday because you love you all love this this week in startups ai every monday man we'll do it on tuesday this time because monday was a holiday happy new year i get together with my good friend SPEAKER_23: sandeep mantra there he is sunny how you doing sunny happy new year i am doing great happy new year i SPEAKER_24: have my mid journey generated ah yes mid journey yeah yeah you know it's interesting to bring up mid SPEAKER_21: journey we with the big news that dropped this past week while we were on break was of course this new york times lawsuit and then i saw on tick tock and i this tick tock that said mid journey uh for audio SPEAKER_05: had specifically sampled all of the major artists to make the styles i don't know if this claim is true or not or if we have any backup to this did you see a story break about mid journey and musicians SPEAKER_28: no i i didn't know about mid journey doing the augment the musician stuff i didn't see that it must SPEAKER_20: have been during the break so yeah we're going to keep an eye on that but there are some mid journey journey a company or an open source project or both because this is another one of these situations SPEAKER_32: where i'm a little it is not an open source project it is a company and it is a not venture backed company and it is gone from zero to 200 million in revenue without any venture dollars SPEAKER_37: wow i was totally unaware of this yes and so okay they are leveraging open source to build what they're doing but they are not open sourcing their models so you can give a prompt for mid journey on SPEAKER_21: artists i think so anyway this is good i'm just curious when you saw that new york times story and by the way today we're going to do some predictions and bets for what's going to happen in ai in 2024. so we're going to make bets we're going to make five bets explain to the guys what we're going to do SPEAKER_46: yeah we're what we're going to do is we're going to make them mid-year because a year is like really long so let's make them mid-year and then and we're going to do over under so you know person SPEAKER_32: has to take either side of it and they're going to be things that we've touched on throughout the last couple of months um and they're all going to be pretty relevant i think to how 2024 shapes up so the bets are also encapsulations of our predictions or my predictions more accurately but i think you would SPEAKER_51: align there well yeah as and this is going to be great so we're going to say hey six months SPEAKER_05: over under we each pick over under yes we do five bets thousand dollars a bet yes so if somebody sweeps it's five dimes yes if somebody doesn't sweep it could be two dimes three times four SPEAKER_55: dimes who knows what's going to happen here but this is big money on the line here this is not SPEAKER_21: inconsequential so we got to think about this and that means on august 1st we're going to check in on the bets uh july 1st oh sorry i meant july 1st july 1st yes the seventh right yeah perfect okay so let and then at the end of this episode let's talk about this new york times lawsuit if we have time because everybody wants to hear your comments on it sandeep because okay you're the technologist and i am the content creator so we have this beautiful peanut butter chocolate here we could SPEAKER_59: have a really interesting granular discussion what's our first bet okay the first bet so there will be SPEAKER_11: a billboard top 100 song created by ai a billboard yes top 100 song created by ai yes okay SPEAKER_46: do do do do okay now what i'm going to do is we just don't want to do predictions i'm going to show you the latest in ai lyric and song creation and to give us a little warm up here to just level set where we're at and how much further we'd have to go and we're going to talk a little bit about what happened earlier in the year as well so and we don't think there's been one already because if you SPEAKER_05: told me there's been one and one of the grimes mashups had made it i would have not i would have believed it but i don't think one has because we would know that yeah and i don't think it it it went into the top 100 got it so it has to be in the top 100 and it has to be a hundred percent created by ai not this is you know taylor swift and then they do a little ai on it it's an ai artist or an ai representation of with the ai representation of grimes count i think it would yeah we're gonna allow SPEAKER_32: that to be part that that's okay that's sufficient if someone takes an ai voice and so i think we have nick on with us nick you have uh just for a quick recap let's go backwards the ai drake uh collaboration SPEAKER_76: can you throw that on for us nick yeah so this is from earlier in this year remember there was a song hard on my sleeve that everybody thought was real and this was sort of in the early stages of generative ai where people were kind of confused about if drake actually did this or not and here's just a video this isn't the person who made it but here's just a guy basically recreating how they SPEAKER_81: did it uh very simply okay she know what she need oh i need oh she bless uploading those vocals to an ai generator she know what she need oh i need a ds up she know what she need auto-tune artist making SPEAKER_83: sure that he's in key some light reverb on top so this is the final result i kind of like producer bae SPEAKER_90: i know what's up with producer bae that guy should be i mean he's handsome he's got the accent and he's SPEAKER_05: got i mean do you see his hand eye coordination the speed at which he's editing that stuff yeah man producer ai bae has got potential man he's got to drop some more tracks so what you're saying here SPEAKER_32: sam kenway by the way is his name kenway shout out that was six months ago right so that was uh you know so that's what you know it's out there people have figured out how to do it anybody can take SPEAKER_96: it's indistinguishable it's indistinguishable today so let's just put that out there so it's SPEAKER_98: indistinguishable so what we're really betting on here is and i guess i'll go first on this one SPEAKER_100: before we don't know before we do this one more piece of evidence here now at the end of last year SPEAKER_46: exactly because we've got to have yeah it's okay it's well produced yeah you're very excited this SPEAKER_32: awesome so at the end of last year just a couple of weeks ago a week ago suno.ai was released and they already have their own trending list like you would see in a um spotify spotify exactly and you know SPEAKER_47: people have created different you know obviously there's a christmas tune up here here's a bluegrass inspirational lively and so i'll just kind of rewind this back and hit play okay and so what this does SPEAKER_32: is you can create and what i did and i'm just going to keep going forward here i actually uh made a paw patrol drill rap song and so that was my uh my prompt was using the characters of paw patrol make SPEAKER_05: a uh you know breaking all copyright violations here you got the paw patrol ip you've got whatever SPEAKER_115: artists well i got their names 50 cent in here i love it and so i'm going to play this and let's go back here and just rewind this here cease and desist kind of when you see we run this game SPEAKER_117: okay so oh yeah man i can see kids digging that yeah and so again uh now we've gone from what the um SPEAKER_32: we saw in the youtube video where you you had to at least you know put the lyrics in yourself write SPEAKER_124: the lyrics this is all just prompt based yes the music is prompt and the lyrics are also generated just SPEAKER_46: on the theme full service here ai what we call ai all the way down all the way down got it yeah so that's what we have you can do sort of be really bespoke or you can just say type in prompts there's SPEAKER_131: a spotify one of those songs makes it in the top 100 over under july 1st right okay so i'm going to SPEAKER_05: take the over now let me explain why okay it's clearly this is easily technical technically possible in fact it's probable and in fact we probably could have had a billboard 100 in the last year or so so what you have to understand when making this bet this is my thinking behind the bet now wait have you picked your choice over or under well no what we're going to do is you got to SPEAKER_45: go first so next time i get to go first so okay so i have to take the other okay great that's right SPEAKER_21: so okay so you have the under by default i took the over over the reason it's the over and the reason SPEAKER_41: i'll win this one hands down is because nothing happens in the music industry without the music industry making it happen this is an industry it's kind of like china right like they they'll decide what the SPEAKER_57: renminbi is they'll decide the stock price they'll decide inflation they'll decide what gdp is yeah SPEAKER_21: everything is decided by the people in charge so the music industry runs like a communist country or you know any other you know dictatorship so the music industry you'd have to ask would they want this would they want it now i think the music industry is a little scared of doing this right now and opening up this can of worms with artists so the only way this could happen is if a true artist like taylor swift um who has more leverage over the music platforms than the platforms have over her right so how many artists have more power than the music industry itself it's taylor swift it's jay-z it's beyonce and you you could tell this because remember beyonce jay-z and taylor swift all took the music off of spotify at different points in time to make a point yep yep so i don't know who SPEAKER_05: else is in that rarefied air but i think it's those three so unless one of those three says i'm putting out this ai jay-z track and i don't think jay-z would ever do it i don't think beyonce would ever do it and i don't think taylor swift would ever do it unless they were doing it as some sort of a goof or proof of concept so i think the muse and i don't think the music industry is ready for this um because it would create all kinds of union issues contract issues and other things that would trigger artists to not want to participate in the music industry or it just creates a fight and SPEAKER_147: tension that they don't want it's smoke they don't want yet so that's why i'm picking the over and SPEAKER_32: that's why i'm going to win a thousand dollars okay well i'm going to take the under because think about remember rebecca black friday yes that that kind of one hit wonder and we have those all the time and i think given these tools someone will create at least a one eight one hit wonder to begin with SPEAKER_148: that'll get into the top 100 this year so i'm actually okay with the under on this one okay SPEAKER_05: that's fine you think that the music industry actually that that 100 list is not picked and sorted over by the music industry you think you could actually break into it it can be an SPEAKER_151: independent an independent song right it doesn't have to be on a label yeah right any song in the SPEAKER_57: billboard 100 the billboard 100 though i think is bought and paid for it that's all i'm saying i don't have evidence of that i just think this is like a tony soprano kind of situation how did SPEAKER_155: rebecca i think they let her on i think they let her on i think anybody gets on that list it's because they let them on i think it's okay you can look at the history of the music industry it's a SPEAKER_156: little bit of the inside i don't know yeah i don't know that side of the world there but i think SPEAKER_21: it's like one of these the few remaining industries that is run by a cartel okay and from what i SPEAKER_155: understand from friends of mine who are in the music industry and you can look up stories of people putting guns to people's heads and sign over these royalties and you should get rob goldberg on for an episode because he knows this stuff really knows this music industry but i just think the music SPEAKER_163: industry is still like one of the few remaining gangster yes driven industry that's why i'm picking SPEAKER_164: the over but i could be wrong who knows okay awesome all right so i'm going to be under great and SPEAKER_165: awesome all right so we're done the first one yum SPEAKER_172: um founders always ask me for pitch deck punch-ups how to make my pitch deck a little better well i've got some great news for you we work with the team at miro uh you know like hero miro m-i-r-o that awesome whiteboarding software i've told you all about and what we worked with them to create an amazing pitch deck template for founders which you can see if you're watching the video right now or if you're listening you can see this pitch deck at miro.com miroverse and do a search for SPEAKER_173: pitch deck m-i-r-o dot com slash miroverse m-i-r-o-v-e-r-s-e i want you to go check this SPEAKER_172: out because our founder university of participants they love this template they use it all the time and so go ahead and check out that pitch deck template you're gonna love it and if your team is hybrid or fully remote miro is incredibly useful for you because it's like an old school SPEAKER_174: whiteboarding session you know those great ones but this one is distributed and asynchronous let's everybody brainstorm ideas collaborate on projects from anywhere in the world this software is so popular and when you think of miro i want you to think of zero to one but faster if you get SPEAKER_178: all those ideas out on your whiteboard with miro you're going to have all kinds of creative breakthroughs and it's hard to do creative breakthroughs when you're just in text so miro is much more than just a simple digital whiteboard your team can collaborate on everything planning research design feedback cycles and faster inputs equals faster outcomes and velocity is how startups win so to access our new miro verse template and thousands of others sign up today for a free miro account at miro.com startups miro.com startups that's miro.com startups to sign up for SPEAKER_184: free okay so the next one is um ai j cal doing a short episode of twist okay define short like 15 SPEAKER_32: minutes like a 15 minutes like a 15 minute episode of twist like a first segment like a yeah let's just SPEAKER_188: say a segment let's say a segment yeah because a segment is 12 minutes let's you go 12 minutes 12 minutes segment or less 12 minute segment exactly so a 12 minute segment and and basically you know SPEAKER_46: we'll put it out there and no one will know that it was um done via um ai okay so this is a setup this SPEAKER_197: is a setup we're going to make an ai of me yeah we're going to have me comment on a news story yep and SPEAKER_21: then we're going to see if the audience we won't tell the audience we're doing this we'll put it in one of the random segments of a news program and then we'll see if the audience can tell the difference SPEAKER_172: that's the bet we'll be able to pick it up yeah okay so this what we're about to watch is a video SPEAKER_208: of a vc speaking yes using agent using hey jen jen already congrats to the hagen team on their SPEAKER_210: rocket ship growth this year we at conviction are so excited to support joshua and wayne in their mission to make ai the new camera they are democratizing expensive video production i love seeing all the creator marketing sales and education use cases for hey jen as well as the ability for everyone to SPEAKER_124: extend their reach by speaking fluently okay well wow so that is look from the video it's perfect the audio is a little bit you know you can a little robotic a little robotic but yeah again no mistakes SPEAKER_221: the problem is no mistakes yeah so i'm just going to give her i'm going to toss you the over under you SPEAKER_222: can pick if but where you're at but if you want me to go first i'll repeat repeat what the bet is SPEAKER_46: repeat what the bet is the bet is we're going to have a segment okay of which is in our control this weekend startups you have to wear the same clothes i'll wear like this yeah exactly um actually no let's not do that because then people can it'll be like a segment be like hey this is a segment we recorded previously or something we'll find a way not to like trip people off on it and we'll SPEAKER_32: put it in and it'll be you talking about a subject so not you and a guest or anything like that but SPEAKER_46: maybe like copyright solo news solo news ai copyright something like that and we'll put it SPEAKER_98: out and we'll see if people can pick it up great so what we'll do is actually here's the better way to do it we'll just release it on the twitter when we do that we do segments so we just do like a SPEAKER_230: news up hey is jake i'll talk about this yeah and we'll just see in the replies in the replies if people say is that ai yeah that's it so the replies if they say is that ai yeah so wow SPEAKER_158: no i'm gonna let you you we have to do this fairly okay i'm gonna take the under i'm gonna take the David Friedberg: under okay i would have taken the under as well okay the under you're taking is that people don't SPEAKER_46: notice people don't notice they interact they comment on it you know yeah they don't notice okay no no it's not over one per and look yeah um now people are gonna be looking out for it so SPEAKER_06: yeah gotta have uh so we'll go with the majority majority yeah majority yeah so the majority of replies or something or let's just say it's significant it can't just be one but it's like SPEAKER_241: yeah okay well nick how do we make this bet a little bit tighter here how would you make it SPEAKER_246: tighter how about most people don't notice yeah i will say i do think this is this is going to be over by a lot and the reason is because i've done this before and i've trained jason's voice on a SPEAKER_76: couple of different platforms 11 labs by the way for audio only is the best one by far jason has a very unique cadence of speaking and he has a unique pitch and it's very hard for any model that i've tried to train on jason for it to get it right so like for instance remember the jason peter j uh jason jordan peterson thing we did yeah that was perfectly it nailed jordan peterson but for you it wasn't exactly perfect and i think that's because you have a really interesting what you have a unique SPEAKER_251: yeah i have cadence yeah yes your way of talking i change it too because i could be excited to be up SPEAKER_19: here yeah sometimes i can lay back i can lay back and be thinking about that stuff you know i have a SPEAKER_254: yeah as a performer you can see i do different things keep the audience's attention all right i like SPEAKER_19: it i like it i like it i get the over uh we'll see what happens here uh very interesting let's go to SPEAKER_55: our third bet for a third bet i feel like right now i got two dimes in my pocket yeah okay so the SPEAKER_32: third bet is ai pixar ai pixar right we had a bet on this yeah yeah and so um you know there's there's a couple things we're going to just pull up here just to get kind of state of the art level set we're going to level set to level set this is just you know kind of state of the art someone made a little SPEAKER_264: short here oh i remember this yes was this mid journey or who is this this is a combination of SPEAKER_32: tools i think like pika there's a bunch of tools that people are using this now because you're you're gonna generate the characters in probably in kind of one of the big image models and use the video models to there's a few different ways people are going to go at it one would be straight text to video others will be like stitching together two or three different tools and then um you know in relation to this uh we saw something else over the holidays which i'm going SPEAKER_109: to try to pull up here as well uh so give me a second this is amazing yeah i mean yeah this this SPEAKER_155: looks like uh i would say cable tv movie more than a pixar but you know like uh the next level down yeah SPEAKER_05: okay but i have to say that the that gap i just want to point out the gap between what's a movie David Friedberg: and what's a tv show you know in terms of budget of special effects that gap is closing and so you see this in the star wars films uh and the star wars tv shows like and or or like mandalorian there are SPEAKER_05: moments that are indistinguishable between those two or ashoka where like especially when they're doing space battles and stuff like that you're kind of like that could be a movie that could have SPEAKER_274: been you know rogue one star wars empire you know whatever or it could have been a tv show yeah yeah David Friedberg: and i'll tell you one there's a there's this thing called the monster series um with titans in it so like godzilla king kong godzilla versus king kong kong skull island and so my daughters and i have been SPEAKER_21: watching that and then there's a tv show out on apple tv called monarch which is about the secret um organization that since the time of godzilla appearing when the nuclear bombs went off in hiroshima and nagasaki that's kind of the folklore of it all till now there's been this monarch monarch agency this like stealth agency uh that tries to protect humans and monitor these titans these giant monsters like moth etc wow anyway my point here is the tv show is so well produced and the apple tv's got unlimited cash obviously so that factors into it but having just watched the movies at the same time as watching the tv show you cannot tell the difference the difference yeah yeah there's no SPEAKER_287: difference and so that's kind of a watermark moment movies like the thing you're talking about is it SPEAKER_155: like pacific specific rim is yeah got monsters and stuff in it but they kind of copied and did something derivative from the godzilla series and i really like godzilla and there's a godzilla movie out that's SPEAKER_42: a japanese language godzilla oh yeah it's been in the apple trending i've seen it right it is awesome SPEAKER_291: i went to see the movie theaters with subtitles and i took my 14 year old to it and she loved it SPEAKER_21: wow it is this and it really is about the japanese culture yep uh and how they uh you know um lost the SPEAKER_05: ability to go to war and not have an army and wow i don't want to spoil it for anybody but it is a very soulful deep personal story yeah with godzilla in it yeah it's awesome um like they're really kind of reimagining what godzilla means in terms of like nuclear war war in general uh you know and David Friedberg: uh you know all this stuff it's really interesting anyway actually it might be godzilla year zero or SPEAKER_32: something nick we can look it up here here's an example like just to build on that jake help they'll do the last example then we'll do the prediction on this one here's an example where SPEAKER_258: the voices are definitely done godzilla minus one by the way godzilla minus one well worth your time SPEAKER_32: here's one where the voices are definitely done with ai because they are the voices of characters but the video is questionable whether it's cgi or not which is you know we're that means we're trending in the right direction so this is like a short rap video that uh this user username SPEAKER_305: loreb on youtube created and it's like spongebob drill rap so we're just going to get into it right SPEAKER_319: now hilarious all right this might win two awards because that seems like it could chart on billboard SPEAKER_37: it's kind of a quick aside so i don't know like the did you see this this on jan first the disney SPEAKER_32: trademark on mickey mouse expired yeah now people have taken mickey mouse and created first person shooters and all kinds of stuff wonderful yeah it's a steamboat willy steamboat willy version of SPEAKER_46: him yeah i think that's what they call it the original original one right and so but um yeah SPEAKER_32: you know when you watch that video and the lyrics and especially you know it played it for nick uh you know who's definitely in the spongebob generation it's it's pretty pretty wild because the lyrics the SPEAKER_46: voices and then i don't know if the animations are ai or not but definitely someone someone will be able SPEAKER_326: to pull that off so what's our bet here what are what's our over under bad for our bet is a july SPEAKER_32: first we're just going to build up on the other one and we'll solidify it in here by july 1st a pixar short that is also made it into the mainstream and people are talking about it that's why the billboard 100 thing is there people are talking about it people are excited by it it's it's coming SPEAKER_157: up on nightly news short that is indistinguishable from an actual pixar short correct and it's SPEAKER_46: circulating in non-technorati site circles it's it's you know people are talking about it on the SPEAKER_155: national news so it's so good that the national okay that's good so it's so good it gets national SPEAKER_287: recognition yes okay so it's not enough that it comes out it has to get national regular recognition i take the over i take the over i take the over i think it's not going to get national recognition i SPEAKER_335: think it could like these things spread in on x twitter yeah i don't think it's going to spread SPEAKER_97: anywhere else yeah i i'm okay with the under on this one too i think we're gonna seems like the SPEAKER_184: best bet this is like the closest one for me i think there's so many creatives out there they have SPEAKER_47: access to so much tooling and computing power that they are really going to push to create something uh for society and i it's going to be fun so i'm good well here's here's here's something for SPEAKER_340: everybody i'm going to give you an idea okay um i don't think i i i think what we're doing here is SPEAKER_55: we're kind of challenging the ai community so this is a challenge the ai community take one of the SPEAKER_05: pixar's uh films and make a short about a character from a pixar film that you think should have gotten SPEAKER_55: more play i'm going to give you an idea there's the character anton ego in my favorite pixar film SPEAKER_21: ratatouille and there is a scene at the end when it's his childhood and how his mom made him uh ratatouille and how that dish you know changed his life anyway they show a quick scene of him it's just for a brief second they show him going back to his childhood in the final scene uh of the film when he says hey listen the life of a critic is not very important unless we're supporting new things so here we are you could make a film about anton ego as a child making ratatouille itself or learning how to make ratatouille from his mom or coming home from a rough day at school and then his mom SPEAKER_344: version of the mandalorian you're doing a little yes you're doing a little spin-off character so and SPEAKER_21: then i think in toy story you could do a spin-off character because i don't think they ever had SPEAKER_05: woody or buzz lightyear have a child right there was never they never pursued that right like a woody had a son or a daughter they were ageless right they were ages so here's another idea for you because they did have woody get a girlfriend right yeah at one point what about if woody junior and woody has to like raise a kid and just have woody being a dad yeah so there's another great one woody's a dad and he's got like a little son or daughter who is you know dealing with whatever issues kids are SPEAKER_351: dealing with these are trust me i have ideas i should have been a movie i always thought i should SPEAKER_184: run a movie studio i feel like it's not too late for me i think in in this you know next era that we're in SPEAKER_32: jaco you've always been a content producer writing books and obviously silicon alley and you know twist SPEAKER_191: and all yeah but i think now you can expand to that i think it's gonna be your fingertips i love SPEAKER_55: it i love it yeah so those are two good ideas for you somebody make them okay yeah here we go okay so David Friedberg: uh to be clear i have the over you have the under under i don't feel very good about this bet so i feel like i got two out of three right now okay and i just inspired these lunatics in the audience SPEAKER_05: to go do one of these ideas okay yeah i know and actually if you do either of those ideas i'll take you to lunch in the bay area so if anybody actually does those ideas and it's reasonably good SPEAKER_367: i'll take you to lunch okay let's keep going okay your business gets to a certain size and we know the cracks start to emerge things that you used to do in a day are now taking a week or a month you have too many manual processes you know that and you don't have one single source of truth if this is you you should know these three numbers 37 000 25 1 37 000 that's the number of businesses which have upgraded to netsuite by oracle you know netsuite it's the number one cloud financial system streamlining accounting financial management inventory hr and more 25 netsuite turns 25 this year that's 25 years of helping businesses do more with less close their books in days not weeks and drive down costs one because your business is one of a kind so you get a customized solution for all of your kpis in one efficient system with one source of truth manage risk get reliable forecasts and improve margins everything you need to grow all in one place so here's your call to action right now download netsuite's popular kpi checklist designed to give you consistently excellent performance absolutely free at netsuite.com twist that's netsuite.com twist to get your own kpi checklist SPEAKER_32: netsuite.com so over uh the holidays a new model was released uh i'm going to pull it up here which was called um tiny llama and it's a 1.1 billion parameter model run super fast and so it's a 1.1 billion parameter model uh it's tiny and it was trained just in 90 days using just 16 a 100 chips so a couple of things here it's very small to run it was trained with you know basically compute that's accessible by any person in the world and you can see that on a local device this thing runs at like a blazing speed all right so here i'm going to just show the speed of one of these tiny models running and you'll just see here someone's taken that tiny llama and you can see how quickly it's producing SPEAKER_372: results right and so describe what you see on the screen there for the people listening what we're SPEAKER_32: seeing is someone on their m3 max which is just uh an m3 mac which is the latest chip uh you can get SPEAKER_376: it in a laptop or an imac yeah only available in the pros right now the imac and the air only have m2 SPEAKER_377: but the m3 is so powerful yeah that you could train well it's not training this is just running SPEAKER_155: inference now so some running in first explain the difference between since we're here you know we like to educate everybody one more time training versus inference so training is what you do to SPEAKER_32: create a model so you take all of the information available to you including copyright on copyright information sure why not you you feed it into your training infrastructure to build a model and and it takes a sort of a rule of thumb you can use is the number of parameters a model has so in this case this tiny llama i just showed earlier is one billion parameters it probably took one trillion tokens to train it and when you get those bigger models like we see with llama 70b then you have to have a hundred times that amount right sorry a thousand times that amount so seven that would be SPEAKER_326: 70 trillion right and then when you get into and define what a token is it a token a word is a token a paragraph a sentence an image it's not quite a word but let's just say a word for for all intents and SPEAKER_46: purposes it's a word right and so that's what you use to to train it and so got it so here we're SPEAKER_388: running inference on the m3 yeah now you wouldn't be able to train this model on an m3 right now how SPEAKER_24: you need those it said you needed a page it took 16 uh a 100s which you can go get in amazon they're SPEAKER_32: not like the h100 this is the kind of previous generation of nvidia chip and what i'm showing here is running on your laptop this is like writing a story about the universe i'll just resume so instead SPEAKER_392: of using chat gpt 4 where you're sending your prompt up to a bunch of servers that are very SPEAKER_69: powerful and it's sending the results down to you edge computing we would call that client server SPEAKER_21: computing and server yeah this is your computer is the server and the client in one you're running it locally so if you turn off internet yes and you're you have no starlink which by the way shout out starlink i was getting 200 megabit down i put it at my ski house yeah i have unobstructed oh my lord wow yeah it just took a jump i got over 200 megabits down more and more satellites right you SPEAKER_155: know and so i don't know what to say i mean i'm kind of starting to think the fcc and the united states government is corrupt i mean the fact that they canceled that contract yeah i don't know if SPEAKER_400: you've heard that episode of all in where we talked about it and i also had on twist uh last week SPEAKER_155: actually the commissioner on brendan carron shout out to my guys two times he's been on the pod i now actually think that there are people at work in our government i don't get all deep state here SPEAKER_287: but i think there's a contingent of people in our government who are doing corrupt things i hate to SPEAKER_404: break the news to people but people might have ulterior motives inside of our government yeah SPEAKER_405: wild wait what yeah it definitely is i mean that one makes no sense no no one can explain it well SPEAKER_174: here's the thing if you cancel those people's free starlink because they're getting it at a discount or SPEAKER_55: free they're going to order starlink in the interim anyway yeah because it's the best solution so this would be like saying to somebody like i don't know what's the best uh hands down best thing oh like SPEAKER_05: an iphone right so let's say you were going to subsidize people to get an iphone you know two years before the iphone was available whatever because you had the digital divide you want to get an iphone and then you're like you know we're canceling this screw steve jobs he's too successful we don't like him as politics whatever and then all those people had a choice of what phone to buy SPEAKER_21: and then you know when that two-year contract came up 80 of them would buy the iphone anyway yes because it's the best product of course so literally we're sitting here and it's like this pizza is incredible uh oh no i don't think this pizza is great it's like no no this is like the best pizza you know date port and i gave it a 9.6 it's the highest rated pizza ever in pizza reviews SPEAKER_57: and they're like yeah no and then everybody goes to that pizzeria anyway and buys it it's it's a total farce i know i'm talking about my guy but i'm jason i would mention that the key point here is that SPEAKER_76: the free market is going to figure out what the best product is anyway but the reason that there's contention here is because the alternative is installing fiber lines which is going to take 10 more years and cost five times the price yeah yes for no reason and that money is going to be SPEAKER_05: burned for no reason that's exactly correct producer nick coming in in his final 60 days here producing for this week and starts before he goes full-time at all in and providing massive value David Friedberg: in year three what is this year four for you working for me i don't know i honestly don't even SPEAKER_423: know i don't want to wow crazy for a while he's been here for a while but now he's going to be working SPEAKER_93: for charmant the chairman dictator good luck to you producer nick march first sonny do you have any uh SPEAKER_427: do you have any experience in that realm i'm just joking i i think it's gonna i think you're gonna SPEAKER_05: have a really good you're gonna have a fun time you know he's very generous he's uh very kind um you know despite his uh gruff sharp elbows i think there's a lot of people a lot of money it's good SPEAKER_428: let's keep keep at it it's good i just i love that man don't get on the wrong side i know a couple people got on the wrong side it's your mom it wasn't pretty it went to the mat with a couple of SPEAKER_37: people and just on top of it you always are with information right you know he's always very fair when SPEAKER_432: you bring information at the table so yeah yeah he was your original investor right so deep in your SPEAKER_46: he's been an investor in all my companies right so yeah all right chairman dictator salute let's do it okay um yeah just on starlink i'll say i'll say the same thing i just i want to add one thing there which is it's i i just think the beauty now is uh for those folks that are struggling for connectivity SPEAKER_184: i saw that starlink's available at costco did you see that yeah no i didn't but that's like yeah nick SPEAKER_437: i don't know if you want to pull it up or you know it was yeah no when you when you wind up at SPEAKER_05: costco yeah it's game over yeah that's when you know you're a mass market product and everybody's aware of it like um you can get like i knew that wagyu and kobe beef was going to be a thing when it's SPEAKER_184: at costco yeah look at this yeah there it is costco i have i have a better one i have a better one hold on i have one where it's someone took a picture inside of costco i'm going to show you that SPEAKER_428: look at this yeah yeah just grab one grab one you know what grab also get the also get the locks SPEAKER_32: there's a really good deal on um nova scotia locks yeah i mean my wife goes to my wife goes to the fcc thing yeah look and i'm not supporting it because i think it's terrible is that go to your SPEAKER_453: costco go buy one set it up that's it and you don't need the government i mean that was my feeling on it i either listen i'm happy for my my friend and their company to save the government money yes SPEAKER_21: and to get a great contract that's awesome yeah i think that actually makes sense to me if the other op because i do believe the digital divide is real yeah and i do believe that taxing people who are in SPEAKER_291: cities a modest amount in order to make sure that we have broadband to people who are not in cities yeah that's it to me seems like a fair use of government right you don't want people on farms SPEAKER_46: yeah in rural america it wasn't fair when you had to pay you know several thousand dollars to get you know dsl or whatever it is or phone lines now like again my point is if you just go to costco like no one should get that contract if they're if it's gone from spacex it should be gone yeah yeah no it should and nobody gets it and the government would be like hey you know what you want internet SPEAKER_191: like a cell phone go get it from you know at and t yeah but i mean if you were a libertarian SPEAKER_05: you're like hey every you chose to live on a farm therefore you don't get broadband i think that is like a very un-nuance uh position it's like a very yeah brute force like i'm a libertarian SPEAKER_69: government get out of our lives if we live in a society yeah and we want society to be fair and SPEAKER_155: lift everybody if if one percent of americans let's just say three percent of americans let's you know out of a hundred and million plus households or some imagine households there's three million SPEAKER_287: people who can't get access to broadband would it not be okay for the 97 to pay an extra ten dollars a month or five dollars a month or three dollars a month whatever it is in order to subsidize those three million just to get some fiber out there and make sure they don't get left behind because it is such a critical essential piece of infrastructure i think that's worth it i also think it's worth it for electricity and clean water and public education right so that seems like a fair thing to do in society while we wait for technology to make those things possible and if technology is not possible yet that's a great use of government dollars or our tax dollars we can decide as a society is that's a good use of our tax dollars i don't think anybody's arguing that kids on a farm or living in rural america don't deserve to have the same broadband as kids and you know and families SPEAKER_323: who are in cities so anyway shout out to the team at star lake and also the team at amazon and hughes who are also putting up low earth orbit satellites shout out to all three of them and the team at costco SPEAKER_05: and the team at costco shout out to costco i'll never go to a costco and that's too much craziness especially with my level of micro celebrity now yeah i don't know if you know what it's like for SPEAKER_476: me to be in a public space anywhere you do because you've hung with me i've been with you yeah it's SPEAKER_55: very it's very disturbing you could have two or three people ask for a selfie every day it could be SPEAKER_477: as much as three selfies a day i have to take you realize how crushing that is on my email to have to SPEAKER_57: take people go to costco it happened you and i were out and somebody came over and they were the biggest fans and i was like happy to take a selfie they're like maybe later i was like excellent SPEAKER_482: all right listen selling software is hard it's hard right now right 2022 2023 it's been a grind SPEAKER_178: 2024 it's going to be hard too everybody's making very thoughtful decisions and the last thing you need is to slow your sales team down because you don't have your sock tube dialed in so if you're a SPEAKER_172: saas or services company that stores customer data in the cloud you need to check out vanta vanta will get your startup sock 2 compliant easier and faster vanta makes it really easy to get and renew your sock 2. on average vanta customers are sock 2 compliant in just two to four weeks compare that to three to five months without vanta vanta can save you hundreds of hours of work and up to 85 on compliance costs and vanta does more than just sock 2 they also automate up to 90 compliance for gdpr hipaa and more you can't afford to lose out on major customers because of silly stuff like lacking SPEAKER_05: compliance just work with vanta get your compliance automated and tight tight is right close those big deals the lighthouse deals that send all the other customers to you here's the call to action it's very SPEAKER_172: simple vanta is going to give you a thousand dollars off at vanta.com twist that's vanta.com twist SPEAKER_169: to collect a thousand dollars off your sock too what is the bet the bet is that is do we see small SPEAKER_32: models in apple's phones or android before you know those are two those are two very different SPEAKER_184: bets i know well okay we can do that's where it's going i say and mobile devices local models on local SPEAKER_155: devices pre-installed or installable let's say pre-installed okay so i think we need to break this into two yeah okay i will propose all right there is two flagships you have the pixel from google google SPEAKER_21: fi google pixel which they're still producing and they will they put their latest and greatest on that and then there's the iphone so i think we're breaking into two bits yeah and am i supposed to go first SPEAKER_59: yeah okay so i'm taking the over for the iphone okay and then should you make the bet on android to SPEAKER_497: make it fair yeah under on android yeah see it now so i think this is going to be a push this is a SPEAKER_287: classic push yeah well because you know you know apple takes time to do stuff yeah and they're thoughtful and you know google just you know is getting better and throwing stuff out there so SPEAKER_501: great i can give you just a little that's a great bet i think this is the most interesting one SPEAKER_32: yeah on you know again just before the holidays apple released uh like a version of a model called ferret and put it into you know hugging face and every yeah so whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa breaking news apple has a language model this is a first it's it's not their own so what they've doing what they've done is they've been working with existing models and modifying them okay the fact that they're putting SPEAKER_20: this out there is you know on a github account putting it out there there's a github account from apple SPEAKER_410: employees yes of something called ferret yes refer and ground anything anywhere at any SPEAKER_96: granularity yes okay so this is in order to do what this is for images this it seems like they've SPEAKER_37: done this for images exactly right and so they've done this on and the reason they've probably been SPEAKER_32: forced to open source it and i don't know like how much time you spend on open source there's certain models and sorry certain open source licenses that if you use them to build with you have to open source what you're doing so what i am taking this as apple is using this and they're kind of being forced to open source it because the license it was just a good thing for open source and so this tells us they must be closed if they're already pushing in the open source so so they are using SPEAKER_287: an open source model the open source license requires you to give to get so if you want to build on an open source model in some cases the licenses mean you have to give back any changes you make fair is fair so then apple is putting this out there and this is to identify images and to SPEAKER_32: make changes on images using ai no no this particular model is like like you can see the example of what is the relationship between object and object in this case there's like a you know a SPEAKER_111: dog and a ferret right and so it's basically what it's going to allow you to do is like kind of SPEAKER_90: maybe ask questions about stuff on your phone so this is for google this is for apple photos when you apple photo sucks when you're like bulldog and it's like it gives you like a piece of pizza yeah so this is they're obviously working on ai for google photos yes got it and well here's having everyone SPEAKER_46: upload all their photos and do it in the cloud they're like we'll just do it on your device with SPEAKER_241: all the compute that we have there okay that makes a lot of sense if you got an m3 if you eventually have oh no they're using the a chips on there i think they're up to a14 or 15 or something these are SPEAKER_111: just kind of like tuned down versions of them chips yeah nowadays yeah so i mean what an incredible SPEAKER_155: thing steve jobs did in his final uh years to get off of intel and make his own silicon and what a SPEAKER_287: tremendous advantage what a visionary thing to do what a great thing to do with your money yeah you know when you think about being an entrepreneur when you build up a chip stack SPEAKER_291: you know what can you do with the chip stack uh you can't buy things anymore obviously adobe SPEAKER_155: couldn't buy figma and they're trying to block every acquisition so you know what can you do with the money amazon built out data centers and warehouses uh apple decided to build their own silicon yep uh elon over at tesla built uh supercomputers and his own silicon and yeah with dojo so you know in deploying capital SPEAKER_287: if you're not allowed to buy things then build things and build things that are unbelievably expensive and insane long passes i love this idea like if you're the new york times right and you're starting to build up the subscription business yep what could you do with the money well you can buy little things like wordle and then keep adding them to your subscription or buy the athletic a small purchase or buy wire cutter they should be doing you know and i don't know the new york times never offered to buying gadget uh etc but let's just say they were dancing around and aol just had the cojones to come in quicker than the new york times but fox i never told anybody this but fox uh ruper murdoch SPEAKER_00: uh put in a late bid to buy weblogs okay when you already had a try when you had the aol deal on SPEAKER_02: the in the red zone and they were like hey how about plus three million and i was just like how SPEAKER_05: about no like yeah and i just told them like if you're going to give an offer that's 30 more than SPEAKER_06: what they're offering which would have been nine million dollars then i'll consider it but if you're just gonna we're not playing the prices right here sorry respectfully rupert yeah you sold early on SPEAKER_10: that one jake how wow 18 months from zero to 30 million yeah wow dude i needed to secure the bag David Friedberg: i mean that was that was the setup of all setups once you get your first 10 milli yeah you're SPEAKER_14: dangerous that's i always tell people get that first 10 million in the bank and man just to think SPEAKER_323: how it's been it's all good though all good well no i mean yeah but i mean in gadget right now if i SPEAKER_55: owned in gadget it'd probably be doing 50 million in revenue yeah whatever it is 15 20 years later almost like yeah that's not actually that big of a business it was a great business don't get me wrong SPEAKER_155: yeah but you know i i'm building something with inside.com that i showed you briefly that i think SPEAKER_453: is going to be the best editorial product to ever make awesome and that's my 2020 that's one of my SPEAKER_534: 2024 resolutions and you're bringing ai into it so it's kind of it's an ai based community news kind SPEAKER_453: of product that i'm i'm grinding on and i just got a very talented person to work with me on it so SPEAKER_155: i need a collaborator i need like a sandeep you know a technical collaborator because i'm not in the weeds but i think i might make something that's very interesting you know and i've always SPEAKER_205: had this obsession with the inside.com domain name and then i think i finally have the concept yeah SPEAKER_158: well with ai it fits really well because you want to be i think so yeah for the based on the stuff i've shown you i think we might have something we might have a winner here let's finalize this bet SPEAKER_134: so we said i got the over yeah apple you got the under under google google pixel yes and it's the SPEAKER_291: that it has that they bundle the model on the phone device yes on device if they announce it SPEAKER_287: does that count if they announce their bundling i think it should i think announced yeah yeah announced or executed either one of those so if they announce they're gonna have this model always SPEAKER_516: has this weird six nine month window sometimes between announcements and releases wait aren't the SPEAKER_155: vision supposed to be on sale yet didn't they say in the new year they were gonna have the the SPEAKER_549: goggles on sale i'm to be honest that's one thing i'm just not tracking very well nobody's tracking and SPEAKER_455: it's like isn't it amazing ai it's really great ai is it got so many practical consumer applications SPEAKER_405: yeah that ar vr yeah and crypto seem unimportant by comparison i will say and i i didn't pull it up SPEAKER_32: here and i i want to do it maybe next week but the new ray bands from meta have been coupled with the language model that they have and so you can wear them you can turn on record mode and you can say like hey what am i looking at and it will explain it to you so that's what i've always felt SPEAKER_555: would be the best use of those hands down is to what's in the world right so i felt like if i'm SPEAKER_05: looking out at a a building if you told me hey in that you know like when you're in japan yeah uh they'll have very tall buildings and the buildings will um uh when you're when you're looking at the SPEAKER_388: building there might be a 10-story building and there's three restaurants on each floor yeah and SPEAKER_174: there's all little signs and it's very hard to navigate and you have to go to the directory SPEAKER_05: but if i just looked at it and it said and i said just show me the four and a half five star yelp review google reviews yeah and i just looked around on the block and it just lit them up man that would SPEAKER_37: be powerful or what about you were wearing them at ces this year and you're like you know ah yeah show me the give me information on this information about this or just you know summarize what i just looked at here and book markets imagine real world bookmarks i'm just looking at something and i'm like SPEAKER_21: hey uh bookmark that and send it to sandeep that i look at a dish in a restaurant i'm always i use SPEAKER_287: food as the use case because we eat food all the time but imagine i'm looking at that french roast at the central bakery in japan yeah and i just looked at and i said send this to sunny and SPEAKER_174: it just sends you a video in the link man the bookmarking shared bookmarks on ar are going to be SPEAKER_46: sick yeah that's going to be the number one use case where you're like oh what was the name that place and it pulls it back out and you know french toast let's go yeah yeah all right here we SPEAKER_32: go okay so last one last bet the last this is going to wind up being six bets because we have SPEAKER_47: the double bet yeah so you know it was supposed to be five but we turned that into double but whatever we'll throw another throw another dime out there now wait are we on the last one are we 500 each or a SPEAKER_98: thousand each no just do a thousand it's like you know makes it easier so it's six thousand at stake SPEAKER_32: okay six thousand at stake now where i like it yeah so the last one is um and um we have some thing i can pull up but i want to just lay it out first last year was a year of like large language models text and what we saw at the end of the year is multimodal and you've started doing this with talking um you know we had a poker game recently and the settlement i don't know i didn't share this but the settlement was done by gpt you know i took the screenshot of the notes and did the settlement with chat gpt and so um and you know like typically we have someone do that and all that so like the the bet here is over under by july 1st do multimodal models become multimodal does an open source multimodal SPEAKER_21: model become the most popular model on the planet does an open source multimodal yes become the most popular planet and so this would be you're basically saying would it be better than chat gpt's app yes that's basically what you're saying because that's the number one and we assume it's not going to get displaced so will chat gpt4's multimodal app be displaced yes by an open source model SPEAKER_93: hmm by july 1st do you have anything to set this up or not are you going to show something to set this SPEAKER_574: up i i am i'm going to show this uh so okay let's show it and now we we're not saying by number of SPEAKER_05: downloads or paid subscribers it's just a better product qualitatively you know like how everyone SPEAKER_32: talked about chat gpt and gpt4 through all of 2023 right everyone starts to talk about um everyone SPEAKER_38: begin to begin to talk about um okay okay so i think the way to say this is will an open source SPEAKER_323: model displace multimodal very specifically but yes okay so multimodal i uh and is it my bet i think you did the android one last so it's my bet okay yes your bet go for it my bet um i'm going to take SPEAKER_251: the over i'm going to share my screen here i'm taking the over here because i just think open source SPEAKER_368: takes a long time to bake and get stuff out okay but maybe so this is a um a project called lava SPEAKER_584: large language and vision assistant and it's a combination microsoft research columbia and SPEAKER_179: remember this uh lava wisconsin l-a-v-a large language and vision assistant visual instruction tuning SPEAKER_238: yes got it wow this is impressive okay wait i may have to change my bet okay hold on based on this you SPEAKER_259: didn't yeah you got you had something here okay hold on so here's a picture of a guy ironing a SPEAKER_32: shirt on the back of a taxi yeah and okay and the question that i you know this is in the demo it says what is unusual about this and it says the unusual aspect of this image is that a man is ironing clothes while standing on the back of a moving car this is not a typical scene as ironing clothes SPEAKER_46: yada yada yada right it's done in a more indoor environment not and so the person can't balance SPEAKER_594: it'd be really hard to do it how does the model know that this is what's the old jay cal like you took the others the model know that i mean because you know i understand how it regurgitates like SPEAKER_264: what's the best coffee machine back to the new york times versus opening i know i get that yeah i SPEAKER_155: get when it makes an image and it's like hey make me an image of a happy new year image yeah and it SPEAKER_21: just goes finds other happy new year images and and you know builds off of it but what really trips me out about language models yeah is when they can interpret an image that always freaks me out this is the part where i start to think it's thinking well here's here's how unless it knows SPEAKER_482: this image does it know this image and somebody described it on the internet somewhere no it's actually figuring this out from the context that's what freaks me out about the way to think about SPEAKER_45: this is and this is there's a lot of there's a lot of energy around this particular topic SPEAKER_32: people believe that llms are actually um not should not be used as knowledge retrieval systems which is what they people use them for like hey you know tell me where you know expressor machines exactly but more their reasoning engines and because of their understanding of the language and so in SPEAKER_37: order what is reasoning right reasoning is like an understanding of language and they have an SPEAKER_32: incredible understanding of language and so if you think about what happens when this when this image is presented to a model it basically the first thing that happens the model has to describe what the image is and it'll say well it's a car and there's a person ironing on the back of it just a description and then the reasoning capabilities of the model say hey that's just not practical like it's you know because of what it's saying here because it's able to reason that from its understanding of every all the training material it's ever seen so it's see there's some query going on SPEAKER_46: that says query per se it's yeah it knows that it knows scenarios about driving you know scenarios about ironing and then it's able to kind of infer from that you look and it tells it say the car is SPEAKER_45: moving you want to be balanced if you're doing this so it's it's you know so it knows that this task SPEAKER_251: requires balance and it's done indoors and that this is outdoors so it knows it is mine in training SPEAKER_32: material when it learned about ironing right and it's like hey you want to have a stable surface SPEAKER_124: you want to make sure it's not tilted you know like uh you want to make sure the stable the surface SPEAKER_55: is very flat like don't you want to do it and it also knows that you it's dangerous to be in the SPEAKER_05: middle of the road yeah yes yeah so this is i mean i really think the reasoning part of ai is the part that i find so impressive i do think it's a bit of a parlor trick when it rewrites stuff because i you know it's very easy to understand that part the reasoning part is where i always get SPEAKER_184: impressed i have to be honest yeah and i think it's so impressive at the all-in summit i spend time SPEAKER_32: with uh stephen wolfram um and he's really big on the reasoning aspect of it as well so here we go SPEAKER_21: you're showing an image what are the things i should be cautious about when i visit here and it's showing a lake with a dock that walks out you know it's like a pier yeah when visiting the pier SPEAKER_287: over the lake there are a few things you should be cautious about first ensure that you have appropriate footwear with good traction as the pier may be wet or slippery especially if it has been raining or if there is algae on the surface well it's a deep pull second be mindful of the weather conditions the image shows a cloudy day oh here we go which could lead to sudden changes in weather such as rain or strong winds it's essentially be prepared for these conditions and to have a plan in case of an emergency lastly be aware of any potential hazards in the water such as submerged SPEAKER_622: rocks or debris and avoid swimming or wading lakes without proper safety measures so it knows it's a SPEAKER_623: lake it knows it's a dock it knows that there are since you said what should i be cautious about it SPEAKER_287: does a reverse and says we're dangerous what's dangerous about docks and lakes and yes and then it goes into to this one i get the reasoning a little bit better when you do something completely like the ones that always get me is when you put a meme in there and you say explain the mean yeah SPEAKER_482: yeah yeah they do a great job most of the time or sometimes it gets it nails it so i find that also very fascinating this has been an incredible year here um we didn't vote on this one yet it's my vote SPEAKER_561: i'm taking the over i'm taking the over i'm taking the under like we saw that i'm sticking with you SPEAKER_05: okay all right there we go all right everybody on the page it'll be up this week in startups.com slash bets is going to redirect to a bets page if you remember any of the long bets we've been making over the last decade here on the show or if you want to go search using our new ai website the new ai website powered by podcast ai is this week in startups.com all the ai episodes are available at SPEAKER_147: thisweekinstartups.com ai the bets will be available at thisweekinstartups.com bets startup basics is at thisweekinstartups.com basics that's kind of how we do things here because we just put a slash at a simple keyword uh sandeep can be found on x.com sun deep yes two e's and a p sun deep uh we call him sunny he's awesome i don't think you have any room for more customers or clients for definitive intelligence you're all you know we always do oh no you have room for one more okay so there's one SPEAKER_636: more client engagement for 2024 available uh definitive dot hi-o yes is that the url SPEAKER_206: that is i-o or sunday that definitive i-o is your email i believe and uh listen we're out of time but SPEAKER_155: on the new york times thing uh it's going to be an incredible lawsuit most of these things get SPEAKER_21: settled they tried to settle this one already but i think there is a i think this is landmark SPEAKER_47: it's sort of like what happened in the internet at the beginning you know with similar um yeah my SPEAKER_21: advice to new york times is to not back down on this one and go to the mat on it that's my best advice to them because this is the google crucible moment if all the publishers had gotten together and said to google if you want to index us and you want that snippet there because when you look at 10 snippets you might get 50 of the value of clicking and that's what a lot of us do you do some search on google you get the one box you get the snippets and then they went and they boiled the frog basically but if the top 500 publishers had said okay we'll no index google would have been worthless google would have been worthless let's be honest it would have never found all the information i think new york times should then team up with reddit quora stack overflow and a bunch of SPEAKER_291: other people and they should also open ai and all put these examples out there and they should just target open ai until open ai comes up with a licensing model that makes sense and i think the licensing model should be reasonable so that it encourages people to do it but it should be people's right to opt out of it and they should be able to set their own price so i believe what should happen is if you want to license the new york times you should pay a fee of one dollar per year per user of your service one dollar per year per user of your service if open ai gets a hundred million users a year they SPEAKER_287: should pay a hundred million dollars to have the new york times per year yeah forever that's my belief SPEAKER_32: okay and they may because i think the new york times is that value 240 dollars per user so they would be making two point sorry 24 billion right and so they would just have to fork out you know SPEAKER_55: a very small amount yeah if they're making you said they're making 20 per month or 240 per year SPEAKER_05: yeah 240 per year so they're only paying less than one percent to the new york times one of the top websites so they're paying 40 bips to them yeah and then they let's say they paid reddit and quora 10 bips 15 bips and let's say 30 percent of open ai's revenue went to licensing deals that seems pretty fair to me if 30 percent if google if 30 percent of google's revenue went to publishers right now hundreds of billions of dollars revenue i don't we wouldn't have the problem with publishers SPEAKER_21: being underfunded right now so i think yeah i'm going to give it the this is my best jcal judgment it's a jcal judgment call okay 70 30 split the language models keep 70 30 goes to who they trained on and you got to show up you got to have a license you got to have newyorktimes.com license.txt and the license.txt should if you make it available then you should have in there what it costs you say it's a dollar per user per year forever and it don't do a one-time fee i think the SPEAKER_291: one-time fee is the stupid stupidest thing you could ever do it should be a yearly licensing fee if you want my book in your index angel i should get paid i don't know what's a reasonable amount SPEAKER_287: 25 000 a year what about all my content of twist yeah okay so if listen if they said if you if youtube wants to train their model on twist 2 000 episodes i would say i don't know 100 an episode per year SPEAKER_155: ten dollars an episode i would take 25 000 to 200 000 because once it's done it once you don't SPEAKER_287: need to go backwards right no but i want to because just like artists should get paid residuals for their music so that it encourages more people to keep making music so that they can make music for the rest of the lifetime because youtube and open ai are going to be making money on it for those years SPEAKER_655: for those years so if they make money on it for those years why should i should yeah okay so that's SPEAKER_287: what this is where fairness comes into play for artists this is my belief yeah i get royalties SPEAKER_291: on my books uh i can have continuing revenue from this week in startups if the i can take my stuff off of youtube anytime and i can just let people go direct if youtube wants my stuff if they want to do a language model on my stuff if they want to index it it should just be they should cut a deal with SPEAKER_287: me and people are like oh that's not possible you know what open ai cuts a deal with every employee yeah right google has tens of thousands of employees they cut a deal with every employee doesn't mean it doesn't have to be standard but they can do it they can do it and you know maybe if you're in the long tail if you have under x number of pieces of content maybe you just have SPEAKER_55: to take the standard deal but maybe when you're over a thousand podcast episodes or over 10 million listeners then you have the ability to negotiate so again i would just put it in my license.txt SPEAKER_184: here's my license terms i like your approach i'm in like a different technological headspace on it SPEAKER_32: going back to this reasoning thing i think we are at a place now where we have models that can reason and we don't need to use them for information retrieval so you know if you're trying to get the best review of an espresso maker you can basically have the model reason to go out to something i have access to and pay for it and go get it so if i'm already subscribed to new york times it should be able to use my subscription to go get that from wire cut 100 right and new york times will provide that and so yeah exactly and i don't think models need that information anymore i don't think models get any better by feeding them all the wire cutter information um and so he adjusted it well i think even if you took it out and retrained the model i think we're at a place now where their reasoning capabilities are so good that if you going back to that image right that we just showed with the multimodal model i do think a different business model will emerge which is more like connect it to things i have access to rather than that licensing approach i think that's what will have end up SPEAKER_21: happening i think for people who have large amounts of data and that data is continuing to grow because the new york times said like their goal is to like increase the amount of content they have by 50 percent like the number of articles by 50 in the next four years or something wow okay you you probably want to have access to those next 50 you know percent increase i don't think it is because that'll be the newest freshest information what if the advice on cancer treatments what if the political landscape and history of ukraine ukraine ukraine changes you know and you want to have that information in your in your model like and it's in the new york times and that's the freshest data it might be worthy to you to give them 100 million a year to have that new access yeah like you may want your model to have that when you comment on ukraine you know is david sacks right about ukraine or not and like yeah well we'll find out in the next five years if who was right biden SPEAKER_28: nato sacks it's it's so it's a real inter intersection between technology and publishing and SPEAKER_05: then human knowledge and like how does that all work together it's a really and make being respectful of content creators is the best model for technologists we have not always been and i sit right at the i sit at the crossroads of both yeah i want to see the most powerful ai and i want to see humans who create great content be compensated for it in the long term yeah and it's so unfair um and this is the great thing about the new york times lawsuit and i applaud the new york times for filing it in SPEAKER_21: such a deliberate way because what they've done is they've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that these things are getting massive value and taking value away from the new york times franchise because the new york times is behind a paywall they require subscriptions open i require subscriptions and so i think actually as a human being you will be making your decision to get this information is it better to use the opening i interface or the new york times interface and i find myself doing searches about i literally did one on coffee grinders i was looking for a coffee grinder i did it on chat gpt SPEAKER_291: and i got everything i wanted then i went to wire cutter and i was like oh wait a second this looks familiar and it was like somebody had copied their homework you know when you take the two multiple choice test and you hold it up to the light and you can see like oh my god you picked all the wrong answers as well as the correct ones yeah yeah and i bought the oxo 99 or whatever it was great coffee grinder i love it it's great for drip coffee it may not be what espresso people want but i'm paying for both subscriptions i think people will pick one yeah and i think they proved it perfectly and then i SPEAKER_05: don't know if you start over the weekend there was a person who did what i did with the jedi's SPEAKER_687: remember i did the jedi bulldogs somebody said make me two italian cartoon characters in a race or Chamath Palihapitiya: whatever yeah and it made luigi and it made mario and then they did it again like a couple of days SPEAKER_05: later yeah and it wouldn't let them make mario and luigi anymore yeah and so open ai is going through right now and testing and removing characters they know they don't have the ip for because they know they're going to get smashed with a disney lawsuit and a nintendo lawsuit any day it is nintendo's right to make an ai generative ai where you can make the characters and make birthday cards out of them or SPEAKER_174: you know tweets out of them that's their ip they have the right to make those derivative products SPEAKER_691: not dolly chat gpt 20 a month yeah and the other ones are doing something similar i read something SPEAKER_305: somewhere about my journey where people were create recreate in the latest version they were recreating like you know marvel superheroes and stuff and so of course and you know what i want to do that SPEAKER_287: yeah but if i'm going to do that i kind of feel like it should be part of my disney plus subscription i shouldn't be doing it for free yeah now i know everybody wants everything for free but why would SPEAKER_172: stan lee create the next marvel characters if there's no residuals or no rights to it everybody can just have a free-for-all why should open ai or mid journey or stable diffusion get to make marvel characters for SPEAKER_291: my birthday party invite you know if i want to do an avengers birthday party invite i should be paying a license to or it should be part of my disney plus subscription that's only fair it should be part of SPEAKER_287: my open ai subscription yeah yeah 100 now if you wanted to make a parody parody is allowed but if you are providing a service to create parody that's not allowed so if i need a priority so you can go and SPEAKER_05: create memes well if i made memes on my own using a local version and i'm not trying to make money from it it's under parody it's fair use okay if i make a tool to make parodies and i charge for that tool then i've like a meme generator you're in then if i'm the meme generated now i'm in trouble so this is what people don't understand about copyright roll it's so nuanced that people are like well why can't i could draw it myself it's like yes but if you started charging for drawing it now you start to get SPEAKER_55: into a different place so if i did um if i started charging people on the web a hundred dollars to make versions of iron man or versions of jedi yep uh and i named them and i put star wars on it that's no i'm not allowed to do that right and here's to mario brothers dolly doesn't need so this guy SPEAKER_453: gary marcus is just doing what i did yeah like a month ago right he copied my uh thing here but he said video game italian and it made mario brothers of course it made mario we're getting into the SPEAKER_21: place where these things are going to need to block certain characters and not have the output as well SPEAKER_155: so i think and i think that's right i think that's the right thing to do and i'll be honest i said something in my newsletter i think i may have to do a clarification on i said something to the effect SPEAKER_291: when i wrote about this the day it happened that a bunch of people that open ai used the stolen SPEAKER_21: content to make a bunch of money in the secondary offering yeah i actually don't know i was kind of reading their minds i don't know that each individual open ai person is acting that way so i SPEAKER_287: take that back i'm going to clarify it uh that sentence because i don't want to mind read them or their intentions they might be just doing ai because i think it's good for society or it might just be a SPEAKER_05: job and they don't feel particularly either way about it but the fact is it's unfair that open ai is selling billions of dollars based upon of shares yeah they might sell more shares in their secondary than the entire value of the new york times if they sell 8 billion in secondary which is completely possible over the coming years they sell eight because a company let's say the employees own 30 percent of companies 30 billion new york times worth 8 billion so when those employees liquidate they're going to get four times the value of the new york times and they built it on the new york SPEAKER_69: times content that's unfair and that's where they're going to get so demolished in court for damages the SPEAKER_21: damages on this could be unbelievably high because so much commerce if open ai wasn't so successful and it was a non-profit it would be so hard to do damages but once the employees are selling billions of dollars in shares and they have a hundred million paid subscribers or whatever they have that's when it SPEAKER_719: becomes profoundly unfair i just did thanos as a farmer in mid-journey yeah that should be done on SPEAKER_21: disney plus that should be a feature of disney plus subscriptions make your own characters on disney plus and then it puts a logo there made by disney plus there's going to be a language model made by new york times and this is my thesis what if the new york times competes with open ai heads up they take a language model that was built uh on the new york times content and then they have a model where having access to that is pretty dope and it increases the number of new york times subscribers SPEAKER_291: and then they go buy in gadget from yahoo they go buy tech crunch they go buy a bunch of they go SPEAKER_32: buy ready well they would just take one of the big open source models and then to fine tune it with SPEAKER_55: their own data hopefully that model wouldn't be built on stolen content either so they'd have to SPEAKER_32: find a clean model on the open source models we can see where all the training data came from SPEAKER_174: so if they did that and then they made the new york times model as long as they don't have to give to get SPEAKER_05: like we talked about earlier the program the new york times is a competitor chat gpt and that's what the courts will realize and i am the tip of the spear i pay 300 to both companies i will not pay 300 to both companies forever i will pick one and if the if it goes to my chat gpt is going SPEAKER_147: i'll probably cancel my new york times because i'll get all the value from that yeah yeah i mean apple SPEAKER_32: does this really nicely with the news apple news plus thing yeah they pay they yeah you you have SPEAKER_55: to have a and i have uh what's it called apple one or something yeah for my family that has 40 bucks a month exactly i spend 500 a year with apple they made it much more expensive it's like it's more SPEAKER_57: expensive now mine's 38 a month so it's 500 a year basically yeah i get apple arcade apple music SPEAKER_21: apple news everything apple tv plus for my whole family and two terabytes of storage it's the greatest SPEAKER_287: deal ever it's a hundred dollars per family member it's great yeah and it's simple it's phenomenal this is what chat gpt should do they should have part of your subscription be apple right because they respect apple did it right yeah now imagine if chat gpt said include new york times for two SPEAKER_21: dollars more a month include disney characters for five dollars a month for ten dollars a year one dollar a month that could be a great way for them to make cut commercial deals with people and they're clearly they want a deal i think you know if if this is my challenge to sam altman if you're SPEAKER_155: such a great deal maker you know people are saying he's such a great deal maker well then make a deal SPEAKER_482: let's make a deal for content creators make a deal you know like make a revenue model that's SPEAKER_59: sustainable all right this has been another amazing episode we went a little overtime uh happy new year SPEAKER_735: again yada yada uh and we'll talk soon bye bye