SPEAKER_00: really the innovation engine that exists between private capital allocators and government buyers is the source of us competitiveness in a lot of ways just the relationship between financial leverage and operational leverage that positive feedback loop can provide is pretty astounding the source of that thesis as a credible thesis for venture investors to engage in started with palantir and then i think really picked up a lot of momentum with companies like andrew that showed that these are worthwhile investments to make and as soon as sort of you can make that argument that there is a financial return and that's a meaningful financial return with the venture scale then a lot of investors come out of the woodworks this week in startups

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SPEAKER_10: startups over the last couple of years we've seen a lot of fundraising go to ai obviously you're seeing that everywhere and of course since spacex has become such a huge hit we're seeing a ton of people investing in space related startups in the venture community finally uh in a multi-polar world with advanced technology dare i say guerrilla tactics uh affecting the battlefield we're seeing a lot of defense tech here in silicon valley evan rogers is the ceo and co-founder of true anomaly and he's

SPEAKER_13: joining us today on the podcast and he's working in all three welcome to the program evan thanks for having me so just briefly if you could who are you and what are you building so my name is evan rogers

SPEAKER_00: i'm the ceo and one of the co-founders of true anomaly and true anomaly is a defense tech company focused on protecting and defending uh the space domain so we build the technologies the software and the hardware that's required the united states and its allies to build the defensive infrastructure

SPEAKER_16: and the space domain awareness infrastructure that's necessary to defend the hundreds of billions of dollars worth of assets that we put in space over the last few decades you're building defensive

SPEAKER_10: systems i would say like iron dome for space to protect our satellites from adversaries am i correct

SPEAKER_00: in in my uh description there well right now we're pretty focused on making sure we understand what's

SPEAKER_16: happening in the space domain so no we're not building active defense systems today what we're focused on is really closing the knowledge gap that the united states has relative to adversaries like russia and china the number of assets on orbit have increased almost exponentially since 2015 a little bit before that russia and china are using the space domain in ways that they have never before and they've studied the western way of conflict and our dependence on space and so they're incentivized to deploy their own capabilities to exploit the space domain but also hold u.s and allied capabilities at risk at scale and we really don't have a strong understanding as a nation of the kinds of technologies they're deploying and what risk and threat that poses to

SPEAKER_10: the u.s so we need to understand that first got it so this is a two-phased approach is what i'm hearing step one we need to know what the heck they're doing and step two eventually we're going to need after we

SPEAKER_23: figure out what they're doing up there our adversaries how to defend against counter measures do i have

SPEAKER_00: that correct that's exactly right and i would actually add another phase to that which is we need to be able to train our operators to orient themselves to the complexity of space conflict and defense and then to be able to take action at scale and then we need to be able to understand

SPEAKER_16: what our capabilities are relative to the adversary's capabilities so these are processes that are mature in other domains but we've never had a really real need for it in the space domain until russia and china started weaponizing the domain so it's really threefold it's understand what's happening build the capabilities necessary to defend infrastructure and train to use those systems

SPEAKER_23: in a contested operating environment all right you've raised uh over 150 million dollars you just hit 100 million dollars series b uh led by riot ventures and so you are well uh funded to do this

SPEAKER_13: the startup though is only a year old you got about close to 100 people there i understand

SPEAKER_16: uh we're about two years old so we started first day of engineering was in june of 2022 and we've

Chamath Palihapitiya: been 120 folks today yeah and growing fast wow so about two-year-old company got 120 people raised 150 over 150 million uh have you put any satellites in space or devices in space yet and when does that happen

SPEAKER_35: yeah we have um we just initiated our our flight test campaign for our first set of space vehicles

SPEAKER_37: that we call jackal we can talk more about that later wow that's a heck of a name that's jackal

SPEAKER_00: that's right you came up with that yeah we did it i can't tell you the full reasons but it comes from my military background a couple of programs that i worked on oh um yeah so so jackal we launched the first two jackals in march um and we're executing an iterative flight test campaign so we're launching spacecraft we're testing them and then we're learning and iterating on their design so that we

SPEAKER_43: can maximize the performance over time a great political thriller day of the jackal i'll just give

SPEAKER_45: it a shout out right there this is before most people's time all right so that's the jackal i assume that's um figuring out what's going on up there let's pause for a second you in that third part of the three-step phase we need to train people up evan we heard trump talk about space force and he was going to uh you know start this i guess fifth branch of our military um is that who's going to coordinate all this and who you're going to work with as we you know as you said the third part of this is to kind of train our people up our soldiers are there going to be soldiers or are we just going to

SPEAKER_10: have people in front of you know like sort of uh drone uh style equipment flying it through space

SPEAKER_46: what what's this going to look like in the coming years yes the space force is an is a really interesting branch of the service and it's it's pretty misunderstood the space force actually

SPEAKER_00: really was initiated um by congressman rogers in the obama administration and the service wouldn't exist certainly without sort of trump's force of personality and and executing um really implementing the plans to stand it up but it really started in the obama administration after pretty significant observations about uh russian and chinese counter space capability buildup and the reason that a force like the space force is required is that protecting the domain and protecting the joint force from space enabled attack requires a set of capabilities and a specialized set of skills that necessitates a force that lives and breathes that every single day and so you really needed an organization that wasn't trying to to to battle other organizations internally for budget and to be able to have kind of chart its own destiny relative to the joint forces requirements so the force is responsible for organizing training and equipping military forces so that they can provide these capabilities to the rest of the to the

SPEAKER_16: combatant commands who then provide these capabilities the rest of the joint force in combat

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SPEAKER_10: dollars off your sock2 so uh let's be candid here uh have there been any military-like activities in space in the last year or two by our adversaries what's the latest reporting on that there's been

SPEAKER_16: a lot of reporting about this recently it's really picked up in the last three to four years as classification reform has allowed folks in positions of power in the pentagon but also the hill and the executive branch to kind of talk more openly about this china and russia have flat out begun weaponizing the space domain and they've also built a set of capabilities that are allow them to use the

SPEAKER_00: space domain to target terrestrial forces with missiles and electronic warfare systems that really hold human life at risk is particularly in the maritime and the aerial domain and so the body of intelligence and all of this is open source and unclassified now is really pointing to a pretty

SPEAKER_16: significant build up of kinetic capabilities so satellites that are designed to attack other

SPEAKER_58: satellites with with kinetic means are those called asats is that the category yeah that's right

SPEAKER_00: asats are a class of system that are designed to target satellites right but it also includes

SPEAKER_16: electronic warfare capabilities it just recently there's been some some reporting around the the massive amount of investment that china's really made in electronic warfare it's gonna be very tough

SPEAKER_00: um to operate in the indo-paycom region without uh in a in an em contested environment and then i think what's hit the press really most recently is this plan for a russian nuclear anti-satellite

SPEAKER_16: weapon so a system that detonates a nuclear weapon on orbit uh and then dumps a bunch of charged particles into the ionosphere which ends up having a cascading effect on other low earth orbit satellites

SPEAKER_22: whoa so let's unpack that last one it's a dirty bomb for space you get to orbit you blow this up it

SPEAKER_61: interferes with all the low earth orbit satellites that are out there in other words starlink etc yeah

SPEAKER_30: i wouldn't say it's a it's a dirty bomb that they're the a dirty bomb has sort of a different

SPEAKER_00: engagement mechanism that requires it to be in the atmosphere but it's a small tactical nuclear weapon that's detonated um in the space domain and that energy ends up propagating through the electromagnetic field that surrounds the earth and that charges up other spacecraft and and ultimately can affect electronics uh destructively not just sort of momentary disruption but can end the life of spacecraft that's

SPEAKER_64: right wow um and now um what weapons work in space we're talking about kinetic uh just things things

SPEAKER_11: that go boom uh things that blow up and then you have nuclear what what else is working in space we hear a lot about hypersonics you know things that fly very low but very fast off the surface of you know

SPEAKER_10: the land or the sea what what are the military uh paradigms in terms of weaponry in space what

SPEAKER_35: works what's going to be effective yeah so there's a couple of classifications of of weapons um and

SPEAKER_16: phenomenologies of weapons the first way to parse this is really to think about it in terms of space to ground weapons ground to space weapons and space to space weapons so in the domain and then crossing boundaries of domains and you there's analogies for this in other domains you have air to ground weapons you have air weapons and surface to air weapons right so all the same sort of phenomenologies apply in the space domain the next way to parse this is really destructive and non-destructive means or reversible and non-reversible means and there's a lot of different weapons that that kind of apply

SPEAKER_00: across that spectrum everything from missiles that target satellites that are launched from the surface of the earth called direct descent asats or surface to orbit missiles those tend to be destructive uh sort of or non-reversible and then on the other side of the spectrum you have ground-based jammers right so just dishes that can pump out electromagnetic energy and disrupt the signals that are coming through the space environment or from the space environment and any of those capabilities can be launched or leveraged from the surface of the earth to space in the space domain or from the space

SPEAKER_11: domain to the ground so there's a lot at stake here it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the treaties that have been signed i think the the major one was that outer space treaty in 1967 that i researched a bit before coming on the program you know a bunch of people sign these things but uh it wouldn't be the first time that uh a dictatorship of authoritarian countries signed a document and maybe didn't follow it to the letter of the law so we can assume some amount of these

SPEAKER_73: measures are already up in space yeah by some actors well one of the common misconceptions of the outer

SPEAKER_14: space treaty is is actually that it doesn't govern or prevent the employment and deployment of

SPEAKER_16: conventional weapons in space it only talks it only speaks to nuclear weapons you can't base nuclear

SPEAKER_00: weapons in space um certainly if russia executes what they might um that would be a violation of that

SPEAKER_16: treaty however the outer space treaty allows for the deployment of missiles and electronic warfare systems and directed energy systems in space got it so that's fair game which means it's up there

SPEAKER_11: and it's it's in all likelihood we have stuff up there and i'm sure they have stuff up there already you would agree with that general thesis russia and china certainly do yeah that's right got it and

SPEAKER_45: if we were to look at different satellites would you describe these as fragile or resilient uh you know on the spectrum in terms of how easy they would be to knock out you know you have thousands of let's say starlings up there if somebody sends up you know some sort of device uh to destroy all of them or the majority of them would this be de minimis and easy for somebody like russia china or the us to do is it easy to go up there send a fleet of satellites and have them go find all the other satellites knock

SPEAKER_82: them of course and just essentially push them back down to earth in theory yes and no conventional

SPEAKER_00: space weapons you need to have some ability to track satellites in orbit and you need to generally have

SPEAKER_16: a space launch capability there's only a few countries that have the ability to do that right okay so first

SPEAKER_11: of all you have to be able to get stuff to space that's right that's a limited cohort of people and

SPEAKER_23: it looks like the us has has you know run the run the table on that with spacex i guess in terms of carriage to space and then you have to get those weapons once you get the weapons up there you have

SPEAKER_00: to have the capability you have to be able to operate them that's right so you have to be able to send instructions to those satellites and then you have to be able to if you're employing a weapon you have to be able to to select a target out of the the many satellites that are in space and then you have to be able to do something send instructions to engage that target there's all sorts of complications

SPEAKER_16: to that and and challenges that the domain presents um clutter and vast distances and latency um and

SPEAKER_00: the thermal environment the vacuum environment can make all of that quite challenging in general you know we've used the united states has used the space domain largely for collection of information about what's happening on the surface of the europe either for intelligence purposes intelligence purposes

SPEAKER_16: supporting the military providing communications to the military or sending sending information and signals back down to the surface of the earth but that dependency has really created a vulnerability right and part of the vulnerability speaks to the first part of your question which is

SPEAKER_00: satellites are very sensitive they're not built for a contested environment they're not really war fighting systems they're not at least the satellites they don't have they're floating computers

SPEAKER_10: right yeah these are like if you had no shell around the innards of a humvee or tank like if it literally

Chamath Palihapitiya: had no protection that's what you're putting up into space because every ounce every kilogram matters right it's expensive to put stuff up there so we put up raw naked equipment essentially that's right and

SPEAKER_98: there was no threat until really 2007 and even in 2007 the threats that were posed by china were were still

SPEAKER_00: in this kind of research and development science technology development type phase it only is until recently that we've hit that inflection point of growth of what are called again space weapons or in more polite company called counter space capabilities so the set all of the infrastructure that was built and designed before space was really designated a contested environment before we said before the united states said space is a war fighting domain offensive and defensive things happen there it's important that we protect them all the systems are basically left undefended right and none of the infrastructure to defend those systems the supporting infrastructure let alone the capabilities to

SPEAKER_16: actually pose an active defense or avoid a threat uh existed either okay so we're starting getting into like

SPEAKER_11: imagining star wars up there in space is like the scene in return of the jedi when luke darth vader and the empire are like looking out from the death star at like this chaos occurring in space because what you just described to me as i think about it is much a sense of equipment and the current uh systems are

SPEAKER_10: just hit to kill right you just bump into these things you don't need to keep your offensive weapon you just smash into them it's like a kamikaze essentially that's but you do have to travel a large amount of distance to take one of these out so if you're going to take out 100 satellites and you might have to send up 200 of these hit to kill type kamikaze i'll call them uh devices and then they have to travel some inordinate amount of distance which requires some amount of propulsion

SPEAKER_45: locking onto the target and then hitting it is this possible today to send up 200 hit to kill vehicles and wipe out an entire satellite array is that possible probable where do you put that the physics

SPEAKER_14: and the technology certainly allow that kind of deployment at scale and that's that is an

SPEAKER_00: engagement modality that i think we're concerned about from russia and china in particular but most of china's that's hit hit to kill is one of them but it's certainly not we think you know one of the first and most dangerous courses of action that china could take against um against on-orbit infrastructure against satellites really it's going to start left of kinetics what you're describing what class of capabilities we call kinetics electronic warfare is is one of the earliest threats and we've seen this already even against commercial operators and i think this is an important part of the conversation to jason is the people's republican china and of china and russia don't make a very clear distinction between u.s military or intelligence systems and commercial systems supporting the fight and what we saw in the russian ukrainian conflict i think on day zero of the fight a cyber weapon was used to wipe out about 10 000 via sat terminals and and clear communications across all of europe it wasn't just in ukraine it wasn't just a via sat terminal supporting communications for the military in ukraine it actually had a much broader effect and that's an important aspect of space warfare is very difficult it can be very difficult to have your effects be localized and targeted right and not have a massive amount of collateral damage

SPEAKER_16: so nobody wants a fight that extends into space right it's actually quite dangerous you want to

SPEAKER_23: prevent that fight from happening in the first place what's the worst case scenario let's say bad actor

SPEAKER_11: you know really uh dicey situation russia decides hey we're going for it we're going to do a dozen of these tactical nukes we're taking everything out and it's no surprise to me that they don't see a difference between the government and the private sector because it's the same thing in this country the private sector and the government you know tick tock is a rush is a is a chinese government asset a ccp asset as much as it's a publicly or will be a publicly traded asset so there is no line for them worst case scenario they go up there and they start wiping out swaths of stuff what happens here on earth do we lose our gps and it's a bummer because we can't use google maps

SPEAKER_45: uh do we lose large swaths of infrastructure and the ability to do zoom calls because of space uh you know internet connectivity or life continues on no problem or a plane's going to fall out of

SPEAKER_111: the sky what's that what's the the doomsday scenario here yeah the infrastructure that is at risk

SPEAKER_00: cure that is kind of most important to the contemporary way of life are things like communications and gps and really a lot of systems support all of that and the timing signal from gps is used in a variety of different different industries it is the standard for timing for communications for the internet for banking or a lot of electronic transactions and for communication so you lose that timing signal um you don't just lose position so you can't just navigate you know to start difficulty navigating and finding starbucks it is also the degradation of that timing signal over time that will result in inability to do banking inability to do communications will disrupt internet

SPEAKER_23: traffic etc so all navigation communications you know just become chaotic on planetor and we're all pulling out maps and trying to figure out what our bank balances are uh it could get pretty hairy

SPEAKER_50: it could get pretty ugly yeah founders these jam sessions with jacal we've been doing are a huge success so far we've seen so many great submissions we picked two winners so far and we interviewed them on the show and we're still looking for three more amazing founders here's all you need if you want to come on this program this week in startups and jam with jacal where you pitch me your company and i give you a bunch of feedback just two qualifiers we want you to have less than two million dollars in funding so we want it to be a new startup you know one that needs help and we want you to have an awesome dot tech domain name so head to jam with jacal.tech jam j-a-m with jacal.tech it's so much fun the winners come on the podcast i have to tell you this is the greatest editorial segment on the pod for me i love doing it because you pitch me what you're working on i give you some unfiltered feedback we do it in real time we ping pong back and forth we pickleball i ask you a question you give me a response you ask me another question and you know what we both get smarter and we understand your vision for your startup and hey it never hurts to get your company on the number one startup podcast in the world and we're working with our friends at dot tech domains because it's super cool to have a dot tech rabbit dot tech aurora dot tech one x dot tech everybody's using them heck i use it for founder fridays dot tech so here's your call to action tell me about your awesome dot

SPEAKER_119: tech domain and startup and apply for the jam session with jacal contest today at jam with jacal.tech

SPEAKER_45: we're picking those last three winners soon all right so let's let's talk about running a startup getting government contracts where are you at with that because you know it does seem like we are in a renaissance right now and that the united states has a unique uh infrastructure plus capitalistic

SPEAKER_11: advantage and i know there's a lot of uh you know trying to use a delicate word here uh there's a lot of hippy dippies who you know in silicon valley don't want to back the military or back you know weapon systems

SPEAKER_45: but the fact is some percentage 20 30 have chosen to do this over the last decade and now we're seeing the fruits of that labor how big is our advantage right now because venture capitalists and entrepreneurs

SPEAKER_10: are able to get stuff in space shout out to elon and spacex team um are we running the table on space or you know and is and is our china is there a podcast going on in china or a discussion going on in

SPEAKER_122: russia oh my god the americans have run away with this i think there have been some really interesting

SPEAKER_00: um companies come out of china that are focused on space that are trying to keep uh prc's competitiveness with the united states particularly with respect to space launch because that really is the infrastructure that has to exist for a burgeoning space economy really the innovation engine that that exists between private capital allocators and government buyers is the source of u.s competitiveness in a lot of ways just the relationship between financial leverage and operational leverage that positive feedback loop can provide um is pretty astounding and trunomi is one of several companies in this ecosystem but really the source of that thesis as a credible thesis for venture investors to engage in started with palantir and then i think really picked up a lot of momentum with companies like andrew that showed that these are these are worthwhile investments to make and as soon as sort of you can make that argument that that there is a financial return and that's a meaningful financial return but the venture scale then a lot of investors come out of the woodworks and what we're starting to see is a lot of interest in in the defense space not just from early stage venture investors but from crossover investors and that that capacity for capital allocation is really what's required for long-term competitiveness and the viability of these companies and that's that's that has been the next that has been the inflection point in the last i would say probably two to three years in particular is the understanding by growth stage investors and croft with crossover investors of the importance and viability of this kind of not only this market but this this thesis and we've certainly benefited from that although when we were fundraising um there were when we fundraised we've funded several times obviously as you know um it's very clear that only a few venture teams really have a strong thesis and many are trying to play catch up i think at this point here's a video

SPEAKER_11: that will play of the jackal uh deployment this is your jackal x 1l 001 and 002 being deployed i'm

SPEAKER_45: assuming you went up with spacex or was it another uh that's right that's the transporter 10 uh falcon

SPEAKER_124: nine upper stage right there yeah there goes jackal 2. and uh what does that cost to make a jackal 2

SPEAKER_23: what did it cost you to get that first one out there oh one and oh two cost yeah less than five

SPEAKER_10: million a piece less than five million a piece when you make a hundred of these or you get to you know jackal 100 what's the cost going to be on these i think we can get the cost down to between one and two million got it and these are studying what's going on in space these aren't offensive weapons they're not defensive weapons these are your study try to figure out what's going on in space correct

SPEAKER_00: yeah the way to think about jackal is that it's really a platform for a variety of different mission sets um what it's really good at and what we designed it for is to conduct rendezvous and proximity operations against very agile objects and rendezvous and proximity operations isn't new we've been

SPEAKER_16: doing it since the gemini program it's how we we demonstrated that we could do um uh docking post a lunar mission um but also post the saturn 5 launch it's what happens every single time a dragon spacecraft docks at the international space station but it has some really important military applications and the gap has been to be able to do rendezvous and proximity operations to take a picture of an object

SPEAKER_00: that is actively trying to prevent you from doing that and to do that with a low cost system is very very difficult that's really the breakthrough that we've achieved with jackal okay so these are

SPEAKER_22: recognizance droids that you're sending out into the universe to go back to star wars like when they sent

SPEAKER_11: them to haw to go find the rebellion you're sending these things out they can i assume quickly

Chamath Palihapitiya: get to a location in space figure out what's going on over there take a couple of pictures this is

SPEAKER_11: eyes in the sky right this is like a drone for a bunch of uh green berets you know navy seals you pick pick your elite force this is their eyes in the skies your eyes in the skies now to figure out

SPEAKER_10: what's going on if you see if the military see something odd up there they can send you the

SPEAKER_03: jackal can go take a peek that's exactly right and they're inexpensive enough that the dod can buy dozens or hundreds of them um instead of just buying one or two all right so you've made the probe droid

SPEAKER_10: the next piece is hey this thing is going to uh need some countermeasures i would assume because

SPEAKER_45: once uh bad guys see that you got the jackal out there with eyes on them they're gonna want to take the jackal out so what are you thinking in terms of countermeasures or how to protect these assets when they're up there or do you just think of them as hey they're probe droids you want to knock them out have at it we got two or three hundred of them up here we'll send another one there's three more

SPEAKER_00: coming to your location i would say they probably look a little bit more like tie fighters they're really designed to be attritable so certainly we can evade an adversary or we'll we will demonstrate that uh over the next year in particular um but warfare is worth the one of the dominant trends in warfare is moving towards low cost heterogeneous or dislike systems and what we're trying to achieve with jackal is the ability to maneuver and operate without regret which means if i lose one of these either because of some system failure or because of adversary action it doesn't affect my overall ability to to accomplish my mission and so i think the the more cost effective approach is actually just to drive the cost the per unit cost down as low as possible without putting a bunch of defensive capabilities on board that might increase the cost significantly and then cause regret if you do lose

SPEAKER_102: it but we'll see i mean we'll we'll conduct those studies over the next uh over the next year here and

SPEAKER_11: it reminds me of like a swarm right you can you can swarm these things and yeah you have at it you want to take a couple out you know it's it's better we put an incremental 10 more of these up there

SPEAKER_10: and you're going to be have a heck of a time getting them all out of the sky than us putting

SPEAKER_56: you know three times the armament on it or countermeasures on it yeah yeah that's exactly right

SPEAKER_112: and by building in that way you have the ability to iterate very quickly so you're not you don't have

SPEAKER_00: that the capital requirement to be able to iterate a very very large system that that's very very expensive if you have low-cost systems and you're using commercial off-the-shelf components and focusing on hardening the systems that really matter like avionics that means that you can the pace of your iteration is economically viable and it also allows you to set the pace for iterating vis-a-vis another another uh an adversary right so we should expect our adversaries to change the way they operate in the environment the kinds of systems that they're building and we want to at the very least keep

SPEAKER_145: pace with that if not accelerate past it so one of the things uh palmer lucky a friend of the pod and

SPEAKER_11: other folks have talked about a bunch is cost plus uh the government does some sort of contract you do an overrun you take more time you race up the price they're going to give you plus whatever i don't know if it's 10 or 20 on average whatever you do and that's kind of the counter of everything we do in silicon valley or in just capitalism in general if you can make the car the phone whatever it is the

SPEAKER_10: the monitor the laptop cheaper that's what you want to do you want to drive the cost down while increasing the feature set and and the capabilities of the device cost plus kind of goes wise in the face of that so what's happening in the industry in private discussions between the government and this new cohort of companies and drill and yours and spacex about this weird non-capitalistic bizarre

Chamath Palihapitiya: pricing schema it doesn't make sense to anybody who's in capitalism to do cost plus it's just like it feels like a soviet communist approach to you know building products and companies it's very

SPEAKER_00: inefficient it's an important approach it's a tool like any other you actually do want that type of approach if you're building one-off very very exquisite systems where you have uncertainty about um the when you're trying to do something very very different right um you have to you have some new set of technologies to to develop that that have never uh been built before but it's inefficient in a world in which most electronic components autonomy and software is relatively modified and you can generate a lot of capability without without with what already exists and so that lends itself to firm fixed price contracts where you can actually establish a viable margin that allows you to have the capital necessary to invest as a company to invest in the next set of products i think the dod is really starting to understand that that at the end of the day the way that they choose to transact with companies like true anomaly and real and others is is the the primary driver of

Chamath Palihapitiya: innovation and the capacity to innovate i mean in their minds if there's enough companies out there

SPEAKER_11: competing for the same dollars what difference does it make if you get your five million dollar satellite to two million and you have an eighty percent margin on it better for the government than it's staying a five million and you having a twenty percent margin on it just makes more sense they can buy two or three times as many of these uh probe droids you're making huh that's right even more importantly that profit

SPEAKER_00: will drive the next generation of capabilities it will drive investment in competitive systems have you

SPEAKER_10: started and at what point does a company like yours go from using venture dollars to make very unique

SPEAKER_11: products in the world to looking at the needs of the government and maybe doing an rfp with them or are you saying hey look we made something here we think you're gonna love it and you pull the tony stark you know sheet off of the beautiful jackal and say hey look at this might i interest you in a couple hundred of these how is it working now did they tell you they want a faster horse or do you come to

SPEAKER_37: them with a car it's both okay it's actually both yeah and that that tends to be very productive and so what we we designed and build jackal both jackal and mosaic the operating system that

SPEAKER_00: will fly as jackal but also does command and control for other systems we looked across this the operational problems that the space force and the intelligence community would have for space security and space domain awareness and training we said what are the platforms that are going to enable the dod to solve those problems as quickly as possible and where are we going to be able to make the biggest biggest difference in biggest technological uh intervention and and that ultimately is is is where jackal and mosaic came from it's a sort of venn diagram of operational requirements and and technical competence of true anomaly and so as we designed and built those we involved a couple of program offices in that process and the operational community and got their feedback early on in the design process even informally that allowed us to to prioritize certain features or capabilities over others and so when the rfps eventually do come out we've ideally built a system that's that's well suited and very competitive for that rfb now we don't always we don't have the capacity to do to do that for every program um so we do we do make some adjustments to the jackal and the mosaic baseline design to meet emerging requirements that maybe we weren't involved in um in helping shape or or that

SPEAKER_03: uh are unknown broadly unknown to industry until they come out hey startups does your product need a

SPEAKER_161: facelift well a lot of companies get up and running quickly and that's part of the idea here in silicon valley and in startup land but hey the design suffers maybe you got flawed ui the ux decisions were made in a rush and that can be the difference between product market fit and not getting product

SPEAKER_106: market fit or weak product market fit medium product market fit or strong product market fit well here's the

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SPEAKER_11: week in startups you get 10 off what are the rules around you selling this technology to other

SPEAKER_23: countries how does that work and is are your customers israel france germany and other india

SPEAKER_148: other democracies in the world and how does all that work yeah it's very important that we sell our

SPEAKER_00: capabilities internationally one of the most important aspects of u.s power projection is we tend to do that with our allies and interoperable weapons systems underpin that and so if we're all if we can't if our fighters can't talk to each other and we don't have the same communication standards and infrastructure it can actually create friction in operations that ends up putting the operation at risk so having jackal like the f-35 like the f-22 not not so much the f-22 the f-35 f-18 etc that have been part of fms programs more broadly to our allies ends up creating um the ability to project

SPEAKER_23: power more efficiently and safely and we see this with nato if you join nato you buy the nato collection of standardized products so if nato troops have a tank from germany or france or the us they're going to

SPEAKER_11: be using the same treads the same equipment generally speaking it makes for a more efficient uh approach there have you started to talk to other governments yet or you just have the us as uh you know the

SPEAKER_177: customer for the first couple years we have had some really conversations but the focus has largely

SPEAKER_23: been on the united states department defense you spent a lot of time in uh our um you were in the

SPEAKER_111: air force i believe that's right uh yeah and you spent a decade or so uh working uh there thank you for your service um there's a lot of talk of the military industrial complex hey are we starting wars

SPEAKER_45: in order to move product and here we have capitalism coming in and again back to our man and tony stark you know the arc there is like are we you know propagating war because we make all these great tools to be in war or are we just trying to take a defensive stance and you know there's been a lot

SPEAKER_111: of criticism of uh the ukraine and russia and and us arming the world you've been inside um and now you're on the capitalist side when you're inside you're the customer now you're the seller of uh

SPEAKER_45: these technologies what what do we misunderstand and what do we get right about the military industrial complex and the concerns we should have about its impact on how we decide to go to war

SPEAKER_111: if we should be going to war or is this all a hallucination and a conspiracy theory well everything

SPEAKER_181: is just a hallucination right yeah apparently at this point it is we're all in a simulation let's

SPEAKER_183: just call it what it is that's it you're just playing the video you're just playing the video game at the highest level right now it's like there's a side quest you can go to space i'm just a brain

SPEAKER_00: in a vat i think that's clear absolutely yes i think it's deeply naive to believe that conflict is not a part of human existence and the united states is in obviously a privileged global position for a lot of i think very good reasons but also we've had a complicated in some ways very dark history but i think it's very clear that it is not a rational view to believe that the united states should not have a a meaningful if not dominant position on the geopolitical stage and in order to do that you have to have uh you have to have the capability to defend yourself and project power use all of the instruments of power not just the military instrument of power and that requires a very robust defense industrial base that rapidly innovates and if we don't do it our adversaries will do it do it and they have they've demonstrated an ability to do that at a scale that puts the united states at risk the reason that a company the reason that i left the military to start true and only with my co-founders is that the defense industrial base did not appear to have the capacity to meet the demands of a contested space environment we had just russia and china had just outpaced the way that we were buying capabilities the way that we were testing capabilities and even just the ideas the baseline ideas that were were being considered for the defense of that on-orbit infrastructure they just were not good ideas and and um or they were incomplete or they didn't scale and so if you believe in global competition as a as a as a real dynamic of human politics then you're incentivized uh if not responsible for generating that competitiveness and contributing it so that we can maintain um i think our way of life

SPEAKER_148: until dictators uh are gone and stop invading other countries probably a good idea for the free countries to have some weapons available when they decide we're going to take our neighbor uh country sovereignty

SPEAKER_23: not a bad idea yeah there are bad people in the world yeah i shocking uh evil exists i mean i don't know the naivete that some people have that they just think evil people don't exist like just

SPEAKER_148: watch a serial killer documentary then imagine that person is the president of their country the dictator of their country like evil mindset plus power plus resources not a good not a good situation

SPEAKER_45: um how much of the military industrial complexes and and what's going on in your industry

SPEAKER_10: is now taiwan and the china conflict the keystone around it seems like this discussion about protecting taiwan and how an invasion might occur has taken you know everybody's uh attention and we're watching

SPEAKER_11: the build up of a lot of small ships you know they don't have the the tonnage uh china that maybe the the west has as a group i got a lot of small ships and they seem like they really are starting to understand what we talked about earlier you know hey here's a fleet of drones here's what it's going to do to an aircraft carrier you know here's hypersonics etc so how much of the industry is now indexing around the potential of that conflict and is that conflict in your mind inevitable that

SPEAKER_00: is the generation defining conflict or age defining conflict no question the the objective here is to avoid that conflict is to deter right and the united states builds systems for deterrence and effectiveness in combat right we do we do there's types of operations that are purely to demonstrate combat power freedom of navigation operations etc so that's the important thing as nobody wants to go nobody reasonable wants to go to war with an adversary like the people's republic of china the second thing that's important here is that the people's republic of china has has created a very dangerous arsenal of conventional weapons so it's not as if they're just building small autonomous surface vessels they're building long-range air-to-air missiles long-range anti-ship missiles that outstick most of our capabilities um and and some of that has to do with i think a narrative around that that we've lost lost a little bit of focus with the counter counterinsurgency operations it's very difficult to fight fight fight a two-front war one against their strategic adversary and one against an insurgent force a girl force and so we should not we should not fool ourselves that china poses that it is a benign operator in in that region nor are they benign from a technological standpoint they have a vast set of resources very active rmd programs on a variety of different fronts that have generated dangerous weapons um that hold our most important power projection capabilities at risk so i don't think that conflict is inevitable i think a detente is possible and i think a peaceful solution is possible but in order for us to come to the table with a reasonable set of bargaining ships you do need

SPEAKER_11: to have um you do need to have a big stick and that's basically what's happening now that's part of this negotiation is hey here's a bunch of ships new zealand korea japan uh singapore france you know germany us all canada you know making uh some trips around taiwan and uh they're doing the same um let's end on this if that war does happen uh there's been talk of super weapons let's call them you know obviously

SPEAKER_73: hypersonics are part of this and cyber war is obviously a big part of it lasers emps all this

SPEAKER_23: kind of stuff what what is the major concern in terms of new weapons technology out there that maybe china is developing we've been hearing some people buzzing about this like maybe they've got some

SPEAKER_56: new things that we're going to face for the first time potentially hypersonic weapons at scale

SPEAKER_00: are one of the most dangerous for sure cyber weapons and then space weapons space control capabilities

SPEAKER_23: explain hypersonic weapons uh to the audience and and why this is uh uh so much talk and buzz uh

SPEAKER_00: has started about this hypersonic weapons are a class of of weapons that travel through the air but some some of them travel through near space uh or or pierce that boundary boundary line um that go generally above mach 6 um some of them can be mach 4 it sort of depends but even five times the speed of

SPEAKER_206: sound is what we're saying here that's right this is extremely extremely fast yep that's right um and

SPEAKER_00: by virtue of their speed they tend to uh be very very difficult to track and even if you could track them it's difficult to track them sufficiently to be able to deploy and a countermeasure against them to be able to have another hypersonic capability or defensive countermeasure system that has the ability to engage that kinetically um and so i think there are some really interesting ideas about ways to defend against them but the first thing that we need to figure out is is tracking and so hypersonic weapons can be launched from air platforms um from surface vessels or from from the ground and target a variety of different uh platforms whether they're air or their surface vessels or the or the ground so it there is um they could even be launched from space uh one of the things that general saltzman is has uh identified who's the chief of space operations for the united states space force has identified recently as china's test of a fractional orbital bombardment system which is a vehicle that's launched into space that orbits the earth and then strikes assets uh on the ground from

SPEAKER_11: space and this is where like a a moon base uh we start to get into moonraker and james bond but just

SPEAKER_10: more permanent installations in space are going to become important but these things can travel so fast and they're maneuverable you know they're they're not just like dumb missiles you could actually uh steer them from what i understand or retarget them or use ai so you know they might be able to maneuver

SPEAKER_45: around countermeasures at mach 3 4 5 6 you know like these are i think these ensure uh a massive amount

SPEAKER_11: of damage and a and a small chance of interception is i think what i'm hearing and they have so much

SPEAKER_14: kinetic energy you actually don't necessarily need a warhead so they're moving so fast that if they

SPEAKER_11: hit the deck of a uh one of these things hits the deck of an aircraft carrier god forbid at mach 5 it's going to split the thing in half it's going to go right through it and we do a lot of damage

SPEAKER_23: listen it's a brave new world i'm glad you're working on this stuff uh evan and the team over there we wish you continued success uh in defending the world against adversaries let's hope democracy starts to grow again you know this is the one thing that's stagnant you read any stephen pinker or anybody who's an optimist they're optimistic about so many things uh in the world the one thing that is

SPEAKER_111: not only not increasing but in fact declining due to population growth is people living in a democracy

SPEAKER_215: and that's something we really got to work on and and and and i think for me worth fighting for

SPEAKER_111: call me crazy but worth fighting for and i'm glad you guys are on the team i wish you continued success and we'll see you all next time on this week in startups all right everybody welcome back to jam

Chamath Palihapitiya: with jacow what is jam with jacow very simple concept i am an investor here in silicon valley i invest in my firm launch invest in a hundred companies a year always looking to meet new entrepreneurs so we decided we do a jam session what's a jam session it's where a couple of entrepreneurs investors get together and talk about you know a startup and try to jam on how to make it more successful with me today anna molhotra i got your last name correct yes perfect i'm good with indian names i i you know and sri lankan names my friend jama kalyapati i i teach all of our friends how to say his last name uh for some reason i'm just good with those names uh okay you understand the premise here our friends at doc tech you have a great dot tech domain name uh which is the rome app dot tech everybody can go check that out i'm gonna give you like two or three minutes uh to pitch me on your startup and then you tell me like what your challenges are your ideas and then i'll give you some ideas and maybe we'll grind

SPEAKER_217: out uh some good ideas and strategies for you to make your rome app even more successful three two

SPEAKER_218: go perfect thanks so much for having me jacal i'm anna co-founder and ceo of rome and we're working on yard sharing built for dogs i'm actually not going to pitch you today i'm going to go right to our problem uh but i will start with a bit of an intro of the product so right meet rome the dog he's a good boy and he loves humans and he's a husky so he has a lot of energy that he needs to let out every single day so he's not a menace to society but because he doesn't get along with other dogs uh public dog parks are just not an option for him which is true for about 70 of dogs even if the humans don't know it and unfortunately his humans live in an apartment and don't have a yard of their own to let rome play awfully safely and rome's humans are part of the growing rate of apartment dwelling pet owners and you probably guessed it but rome is mine and my co-founder's dog and he's the inspiration behind what we're working on which is yard sharing built for dogs with rome dog owners book a yard near them and neighbors can rent out their outdoor space and earn with every booking simply put we're a two-sided yard ship marketplace so the challenge we wanted to present to you today jacal is supply acquisition specifically we knew going in that demand will come really quickly but we knew that if they go onto the app and they don't see a yard that they like they won't have a good experience and so at rome liquidity is mostly based off of what dog owners are looking for in a yard it comes down to three things first is the yard safe for their dog next the yard should be close by and finally it's at least big enough for their dog to run around it yeah and so all of these things determine what makes a good yard for a guest and so we focused on building as much of this good supply as we could before starting our demand acquisition and so we we've spent about six months of dedicated effort to grow our supply we've had only about 20 years to show interest uh but we have seven yards in seattle two of them are too far one is too small and one honestly is just mine we just bought a house uh one however is a local private dog park business that we just onboarded and we plan to lean into this a bit more but i think to build true liquidity and give our demand the options they need we need to scale our numbers of good yards through consumers and not just businesses and so some of the strategies we've already tried is reaching out to personal network posting on craigslist and next door all of those have been successful but direct mail door to door and reaching out to rover sitters has not and of course we successfully onboarded that one business and so before i open up to feedback and questions jaycal yeah i just want to put this challenge in perspective our supply growth is in green and you can see that it's fairly low and flat since the beginning of the year but our demand growth in pink has more of an exponential curve coming up and much of this is because we onboarded that local business and as of last week i'm finally full time on rome and i think to be successful this is a time to just be heads down on growing supply we have all this demand coming in and we want to be able to provide at least one good yard and we need to do that quickly so jaycal you know i know you have experience with marketplaces you know perhaps riders drivers yeah so this is my question for you how to get good yards this is a great question and

SPEAKER_151: it's one i'm uniquely qualified to answer because we uh specialize in investing in uh marketplaces

SPEAKER_106: we have stone algo which is a marketplace of diamond sellers and buyers we have uh meow tell which is uh cat sitting which is very different than dog sitting and obviously uber and thumbtack we love a great marketplace and uh building supply uh is really important and you've heard you've got airbnb here for dog runs brilliant idea there's a very simple way you buy the supply with minimums and you have this great benefit that uh some number of people are already airbnb owners uh or vrbo so what you're going to do is uh i watch and we also have gigster which rents space as well now they're potentially a competitor because they rent space for a lot of different uses i have never seen dog parker on there i think that's kind of niche and there's some insurance issues or whatever but generally

Chamath Palihapitiya: speaking i think going to an existing marketplace and that already does airbnb and you go and you check out an airbnb and you look at the airbnb and you say to yourself hey this is interesting

SPEAKER_230: this airbnb has you know a yard and a yard on the side they could very easily cut out this yard

Chamath Palihapitiya: fence it in or just put a gate on it and they can still rent their airbnb and they incrementally do this and they know how to manage people they know how to market they know how to take pictures and so you could draft on airbnb and vrbo's existing network that could be such a simple unlock and when you talk to them you could say hey we're a startup like airbnb except we're doing this people love meeting founders uh and they love startups people love entrepreneurs i mean i love you you came on here you got a beautiful idea and the pitch was so crisp and uh the design was so good and you understand your market the charming story of it's your husband and your your dog love it all and so that's what i would do and then what uber did was they cold called drivers uh they went to google people don't know these stories i do they went to google they found livery companies lincoln town cars what they used to call black cars and they just ground it out boom and sometimes i think they even took rides and said

SPEAKER_106: hey i'm with the company uber here's how it works can i show you the app and i think they bought that inventory they said hey we'll give you a minimum of 500 a month for five rides guaranteed and we'll pay it to you you know for just having the app on and if you keep the app on for 10 days in a row every day we're going to send you you have it on we'll send you 50 bucks whatever it is so you can just say to them like listen i want to do this for the month i'll give you 500 bucks for the month and if we make above 500 you know we'll give you some uh and if we don't we're going to take 30 you know we'll just eat the 500. that's the way i would do it uh and i think it'll work really well have have you

SPEAKER_218: thought of this strategy and uh do you think it will work i i so i reached out to rover sitters through the rover app and we actually got kicked off because you know obviously we weren't following the terms of service any suggestions on how to reach these airbnb hosts outside of the platform yeah

Chamath Palihapitiya: many of them uh well two ways many of them have their own dedicated websites because they want to route around the fees of airbnb um other ones just they're happy to pay the airbnb fees but a lot of

SPEAKER_148: times you'll find clues in their descriptions and they'll call it like you know if they were in austin they'll call it like i don't know south of congress retreat and you google south congress retreat and you find them on yelp you find them in other places right so i think there are ways to do that and then uh you can just keep opening accounts and doing the thing where you talk to them and uh just say you know um hey i would love to talk to you here's my number and then when you talk to them you know you're just gonna have to deal with that the other thing to do is to go to reddit and uh reddit has a lot of sub forums and you could find the one if you're in seattle or austin or brooklyn

Chamath Palihapitiya: or even like bay ridge brooklyn and then you say hey uh i'm looking for a place to run my dog uh and i started and then in the details like you know you kind of float the idea start getting people talking about it and so yeah it's a little gray market you understand the concept of like there's white hat black hat gray black illegal white hat legal gray yeah you're bending the rules a little bit uh you feel a little rule bending here and maybe start some conversations on forums and see if you can get you know inventory that way so i think online forums are pretty good for that obviously next door you tried i bet you next door worked to a certain extent maybe it did we just need to lean into it a little more lean into it i also think dog walkers could be very interesting for

SPEAKER_106: you um and so getting a couple of these weirdos uh you know what i'm talking about like these people who love dogs like so much and they get on the ground with like six of them and you see them walking to the dog park with six of them you know you might be able to get a dog walker and say hey to the dog walker if i had a a dog run here and there was a staff member there and there was lemonade and it had four sections and you could put four dogs in four different sections man and this is what a jam session's about anna i'm thinking about this i'm wondering if it you should just find a plot of land and build 10 pens in it start selling coffee there let's go have some cold brew there you know and just sit there all day and let people come into it and you kind of hack it like that right that's another possibility for you absolutely you could air if you could do a short-term rental what what

SPEAKER_240: what neighborhood are you doing roman uh we're in seattle uh perfect yep is there a specific area

SPEAKER_241: like in seattle uh the neighborhoods we want to target is queen anne if you've heard of it i haven't

SPEAKER_245: what is the average home price there i'm wondering um uh one to two million okay perfect there's a really

Chamath Palihapitiya: crummy house that's for rent in that area that's a dog of a house got weird bathrooms and like falling apart and nobody wants to put their family in there and they would only rent it if they really had to because they want to get their kid into the school system and that person can't rent it i would go to that person say hey listen i'm an entrepreneur here's what i'm doing i want to do this business would you mind if i rented it for three months and tried and i'll have insurance and everything it's nothing for you to worry about and you know i'm not going to damage the lawn or anything and if i do uh you know you got my deposit you can keep it and i would actually try doing this in the most central

SPEAKER_106: place you could rent because what is rent of a house there 5k a month 4k a month uh yeah sounds about right four to five okay let's say it's 5k all in and then the backyard you set up pens how much could that cost to set up a pen 500 bucks each with some gates you order on amazon or something holy cow you set up 20 pens there and then you tell people hey i got this place for dogs and oh by the way we also have an upsell uh we have grooming on site and we got an upsell for you for because you mentioned somebody had this as a business already right there was somebody doing a private for rent dog park

SPEAKER_244: correct so they're a bar slash dog park okay so somebody else had this taken the outdoor

SPEAKER_232: we've taken up their outdoor space for private bookings love it so here now see now we're starting

SPEAKER_106: this is what a jam session's about i like doing it there's something here you know this concept third space you ever hear about that third space i have not okay there's your house there's your work that's one space that's a second space describe for me a third space you could go today that's not one of those two if you needed to not be in a coffee shop you got it you nailed it starbucks isn't selling coffee in many cases a lot of what starbucks is selling is the third space i don't want to be home i've been cooped up i i hate my boss he's a complete jerk he makes me say yes chef to him he's just overbearing he talks to me about my career he's annoying where else can i go i can go to a third space i get a starbucks put my headphones on i just jam out there it's air conditioned beautiful furniture it's nice room what's another third space give me another third space um the gym gym you got it give me another third space um a private dog park where i can get coffee

SPEAKER_244: and drinks and now we're talking now we're talking so this is like a really interesting business also

SPEAKER_106: there are lots that are available so you know somebody's got a parking lot and they're making a thousand bucks a month or two thousand bucks a month on some crummy parking lot now seattle i think it's got a lot of regulations is that like a regulation heavy place uh i i believe so but

SPEAKER_218: i do think i have looked at zillow for just small pots of land just put a fence up make it a yard

SPEAKER_223: uh but it's capital intensive so that's been the only setback there so you know have you raised money

SPEAKER_254: for this idea yet we have not we have bootstrapped so far okay so one of the things about these ideas

Chamath Palihapitiya: is you know you get into a jam session with an investor like we did here today we start doing it now

SPEAKER_106: you can say hey you know what jacow kind of pitched me on this sounds like i could do this for 5k a month why don't i just ask them for 10k a month that's 125k guess what that's what we give people

SPEAKER_266: in our accelerators 125k so you know have you put money into this business yet um just a little bit

SPEAKER_232: only three to five thousand dollars just cash here and there perfect love it so and yeah you're a nepo

SPEAKER_106: baby you've got a trust fund you're independently wealthy i am not no you want to be rich you want to be powerful you want to be a legend okay great come with me so my point is um this is why accelerators exist in the world launch accelerator tech stars y combinator etc the reason they exist is because you know people like you have you know unbelievable amounts of energy and ideas and uh this is a crazy outlier idea uh and uh well it you know like you got to get started and learn and so you came to me with that problem of the demand but as we went back and forth and we we volley volleyed like playing pickleball ping pong tennis i always tell people man you know maybe there's a bigger idea here which is third space maybe where that maybe where the starbucks of dog runs and the dog who's anti-social is what got us here just like the couch surfing is what got airbnb going but that wedge maybe we open that up and maybe we'll make as much money from the concession

Chamath Palihapitiya: and the secondary services dog training hey man if this dog is bad behaved and that's why you're coming here well maybe we have a dog trainer here who's 50 bucks an hour okay man we got a lot we could unpack here grooming etc really great idea really great presentation i like the design i like the pitch i like everything about it uh congratulations great job jamming with jcal right on a scale of one to ten how

David Friedberg: helpful this was am i allowed to say eleven you're i mean i i can't tell you what to say i think the

SPEAKER_271: airbnb thing is going to work i really think it's going to work so i want to give it eleven okay i'm

David Friedberg: going to let you give it eleven it's not for me to judge i can't imagine coming here and talking to a legendary angel investor who could change your entire life and giving anything less than a ten uh but you gave eleven which i give you credit for you know last time i did this the guy was like i give it a ten you came out and was like huh i put one more than ten right now we're talking now we're really jamming great job and you know who else does a great job my friends at dot tech domains

SPEAKER_161: can't get a dot com listen you're putting three four five thousand dollars into this rome.com it's not built in a day i think about rome all the time roman empire rome.com is a ten million dollar domain five million dollar domain four letters in the dictionary destination great destination so hey the the the rome app dot text great domain fantastic dot tech dot tech also that

SPEAKER_106: signals to me that uh you get it the technology does change the world so shout out to my friends the dot tech and we will see you all on the next jamming with jacow