SPEAKER_00: all right everybody welcome back to twist it is april 6th 2025 how do i know it's april 6th

SPEAKER_01: maul is out today oh right the new star wars animated and it's got great reviews i love watching clone war star wars rebels i'm excited all of it with my daughters i'll tell you what i don't like

SPEAKER_07: though we're we're already in the point where any new star wars thing comes out and immediately people start comparing it to andor that's what it's like oh this is the andor of cartoons and

SPEAKER_05: it's like i i i i'm already tired of that it doesn't have to be andor to be good let's just

SPEAKER_00: enjoy it for what it is no i'm gonna take the other side i'll tell you why i'm gonna take the other side andor set the high water mark so it used to be like is this as good as empire strikes back yes

SPEAKER_12: and so you know now i consider andor and empire this is gonna be big for people oh this is about

SPEAKER_16: to be controversial i consider them equal wow i consider them equal now that doesn't mean i don't have an affinity for empire as a kid it was like the most meaningful thing for me for us old guys

SPEAKER_19: yeah it strikes but yeah all right listen we have so much to get to it's a070 by the way it's a i've

SPEAKER_05: started keeping track again it's a070 70 70 days since our very first episode about open claw a070 yeah

SPEAKER_21: and um i am got a confession here i have been um stunted i'm stunted right now with my open club

SPEAKER_22: because of this claw stuff using the open source ones it's not stable enough for me and i haven't

Chamath Palihapitiya: taken the time to fix it and then i find myself on perplexity computer and open club computer which is what i think those platforms want is they want to shut down and get everybody to use their version of

SPEAKER_22: open claw which we will discuss today we will but before i do any of that i'm going to just take a minute to applaud applaud i'm going to turn on my plot pin there it goes boom i press the button and now everything i say i'm recording and it's on my lapel this is the plot pin but this is the other

SPEAKER_24: one uh you can put this little device it seems like a little wallet you snap it on the back of your uh iphone this is the iphone you can see how thin it is iphone yeah boom boom you put that right on the back then if you want you just press this button there's a little haptic you're recording press it again haptic off why is that important this thing's got like 1700 microphones boom i press this i lay it on the table during our management meeting i got everything set i don't have to go futz with it or whatever and um it's got a great little um this is the great thing about the plod

SPEAKER_00: uh this is the base for the pin you see that this is my backup yeah so i have two plod pins pop it in here that's the usbc boom it charges but when it gets on my wi-fi 2.4 gigahertz wi-fi

SPEAKER_24: megahertz um it sinks yeah then i send lon the notes it's like then lon has his whole weekend ready to go he's had a whole bunch of plans and now he's got new plans give him the offer if you and

SPEAKER_07: your work depend on having conversations interviews meetings taking calls you got to get yourself a applaud notes in check it out at plaud.ai slash twist that's plaud.ai slash twist and if you use

SPEAKER_05: the code twist they're going to give you 10 off your new note pin uh you know we had a nice week last

SPEAKER_35: week we did this um two dollar bill test yes the b of a two dollar bill test and uh that went viral i think it's close to a million views now on on x which for us is uh is not bad i think it's important

SPEAKER_22: for people to be detail-oriented and uh you know that's why i talk about the checklist manifesto all the time and you wanted to see who's hungry to get things done and who's a detailed person in startups this is your tactical practical tip everybody wants to be an idea person everybody wants to be a vibes person but being a grinder and a detailed person a lot of people don't want to refine that skill

Chamath Palihapitiya: the founders you get to be whatever you want you're the founder you created it but for everybody else

SPEAKER_47: you're obligated to be on point tight is right keep a checklist now why is a checklist important

SPEAKER_52: well i've talked about the checklist manifesto many times people are are valuable is that the right word fallible fallible thank you uh as i just proved we're fallible i haven't used that word in like

Chamath Palihapitiya: 30 years people make mistakes we make mistakes constantly i make mistakes constantly when you have a checklist you'll make less mistakes and one of the things we wanted to get right was just

SPEAKER_24: reviewing our social media the fact that the two dollar bill test went well was a function of we found like an interesting moment in the show and we had a checklist how we name the clips how we do all this so just do yourself a favor make checklists have your team do it force them to print them out and make sure you review the checklist whatever it is you're onboarding a new customer you are hiring somebody make sop standard operating procedures and everything will go better especially in an agentic

SPEAKER_22: world yes and that's what we're going to talk about today if you're one of the people who's a detailed person and you combine yourself with this agentic software making the checklist was great for

SPEAKER_24: humans but making the checklist is even better for open claw it's even better for claude uh co-work it's even better for perplexity computer yeah that's what i want to get through here today and i made that sort of jump like hey if you can make a checklist then you can put your replicant on a checklist

SPEAKER_59: and you can hold your replicant accountable and we're getting there we're getting there we've got a

SPEAKER_07: little closer it's the memory i think is the key like if you could get your open claw to start remembering everything you're telling it and keep track of everything with their heartbeat and their

SPEAKER_05: soul md and however you do it that seems to be the key that's where i keep running into trouble is gaff

SPEAKER_43: is very forgetful yeah you're a replicant he lives in a two instance and so he's not he's not on top

SPEAKER_63: problematic yeah i just bought the new i just bought a new macbook pro uh because i had like a four-year-old

SPEAKER_22: air and it was my air was great but i was like i'm in brooklyn you know as i went to see my dad last week uh he's doing much better anyway i get the macbook pro and my god when you put 48 gigs of ram on these things and this new m5 processor it is like scary how much faster and better these this hardware profile is and it's only getting better this is the i gotta get gaff his own system this is

SPEAKER_16: ridiculous then i think when we get the mac studio out i'll get you in next i got i got it i gotta get

SPEAKER_43: all right let's introduce our guests we got a lot to get to today yes please 70. we got three returning

SPEAKER_07: favorites three of our top open claw experts came back for a reunion special uh first up uh he is a founder he is a developer last time he was on he showed us ant farm his open source tool uh this time he's got a new demo to show us it's called claw chief uh give it up for ryan carson ryan carson back

SPEAKER_21: on the program oh yeah ryan carson my old friend what continent are you on are you in the u.s now i

SPEAKER_75: know you spoke about where are you so so jason i guess you're a senior dad i'm visiting my dad this

SPEAKER_76: week so not how's he do it not great i'm going through it too yeah but yeah my dad's how old is he

SPEAKER_77: he's you know uh late 70s um yeah that's when um it gets real yeah and so i'm in beautiful color

SPEAKER_21: springs in their lovely home today so hello amazing amazing all right well uh sending good vibes to your

SPEAKER_80: dad and it's great that you're going to see him i'm sure he is over the moon seeing his incredibly

SPEAKER_63: successful son my dad was super super super excited to see me uh especially since i am his most successful son oh since you're his favorite child yeah he did he didn't make sure that sorry

SPEAKER_05: to jamie and james doing great he's doing great he's doing great proud member still not uh up next we've got uh the founder and ceo of creator buddy he's a vibe coder he's an open claw influencer it's

SPEAKER_92: alex finn thanks for being here alex you just call alex an influencer i don't know what i'm saying

SPEAKER_94: alex is alex i don't want to consider myself an influencer but i do believe i'm the most influential

SPEAKER_87: person on earth yes very good personally very influenced by alex here's how you know he's an

SPEAKER_24: influencer when he's on the pod here on twist he's normal but when he does his youtube videos he's like

SPEAKER_100: i have to say i am afraid it works it's happening it's called showmanship jason i love it i haven't

SPEAKER_105: gotten there i i have to learn how to do the mr beast yeah um we tried to i'll help you guys take

SPEAKER_05: it to the top we'll talk again after we made those thumbnails that you do in the mr beast face jason you

SPEAKER_114: made us stop you ordered us to stop i just i'm like i don't know i just feel it's no offense alex i just feel like when you're an old guy like me and ryan hey to do the who listen you have to be as

SPEAKER_116: cringe as humanly possible it's the only way to win the internet game it's the only way it's the only way

SPEAKER_16: okay i'm gonna embrace my cringe and my off finally i'll just give in we just i'm gonna give into the cringe i'm gonna be cringe maxing let's do it alex is cringe maxing i'm gonna cringe time

SPEAKER_05: for cringe back who cares all right and finally jason we've got one more member of our panel he was on

SPEAKER_07: just about a week and a half ago he's the founder creator of open oats he's if you'll recall we had yazin on the show we were like musing aloud wouldn't it be great to have a virtual production team working with us and a a is helping out with every aspect of the show uh within 24 hours of his appearance he built it so he's here to show off sidecast uh yazin ali rahim side cast yazin welcome

SPEAKER_126: back you hear me say it all the time startups need to be lean you got to try to figure out how to get the most done while spending the least amount possible it's called efficiency you got to have the smallest tightest team so that you can make your runway less that's why you need gusto gusto is a must though gusto is the essential payroll and benefits software built for your startup or small business it's all in one remote friendly and incredibly easy to use so you can pay hire on board and support your team from anywhere we use it we love it take it from your boy jacal gusto's built-in tools are going to save you so much time for example gusto automates every step of your payroll process syncing your team's hours pto that's paid time off and holidays seamlessly plus plus it's so fast and simple to transfer your existing data and switch over to gusto at any time so try gusto today at gusto.com twist and get three months free when you run your first payroll that's three months of free payroll at gusto.com twist hey this is very important because there was

SPEAKER_22: also something that came out this week and i thought we should start with lon which is

Chamath Palihapitiya: in china there is a new trend which is you get your teammates fired yes before you get fired right

SPEAKER_136: wow the concept here is we all know this is a sinking ship when i say sinking ship i mean employment

Chamath Palihapitiya: the idea of working for a living yes the idea of having a job is over everybody understands that today sam uh sam altman said to axios which i guess he's underwriting axios i didn't know that he was like paying for the newsroom over there but he's got there's some disclaimer at the end like and uh just in full disclosure open ai pays for a lot of our journalists but tee this up lon tee up so this little

SPEAKER_43: cheese eater the chinese cheese eater movement so a bloomberg researcher named steve howe tweeted this the other day apparently workers in china have been creating colleagues dot skill to distill their co-workers hoping to make them redundant hence saving themselves uh in response to one has recently invented an anti-distillation skill that has gone viral on github so yeah i guess the idea being that your your co-workers are now going to create a clawed skill that does your job so that you get fired and they get to

SPEAKER_05: keep their job by the transitive property or something i don't know this is the chinese

SPEAKER_145: cheese eater movement they ate cheese this is it you understand ryan you eat cheese that makes you a

SPEAKER_146: who eats cheese cheese eater i don't know a cheese eater we're looking for a rat a mouse a rat

SPEAKER_136: and where i'm from in brooklyn if you eat cheese that makes you a rat and if you're a rat watch your back

SPEAKER_149: okay uh snitches get stitches ryan did you you were an education company and now you see this are you

SPEAKER_137: in the what percentage doomer are you and by doomer i mean well i can tell i can tell you the facts

SPEAKER_152: right so yeah please we just closed our seed round uh normally you would hire up and guess what i'm not hiring anybody right so i just i just deployed claw chief as my assistant chief staff fine that's pretty straightforward i'm just about to deploy another open claw to be my marketing manager like this is where it's gonna go and then once you've got your your claw optimized then then you will hire a human to run that claw but yeah i mean this is a this is a real thing it's a real thing and you have the money

SPEAKER_147: in the bank and it used to burn a hole in people's pocket hey who can we hire who can we hire now it's like oh hiring people is a lot of work yeah and humans are fallible we got to work with them and then jason

SPEAKER_152: you lose them and then you have to retrain and reskill and i think this is we'll talk about this on the show but the big unlock is you are continually improving this employee uh and the more you improve them the better they get and then you can onboard even more and with i mean unfortunately all of us humans hey we have our own families to feed we do our own our own things yeah and free will and free

SPEAKER_145: will like you can go we have uh employment at will and we have free will these two things alex as human beings and in a society um boy if you invest in a employee a team member and they get really good the

SPEAKER_22: reward for that is they leave and start their own company or they leave and go work for some big companies willing to overpay them so where are you at what percentage are you alex currently what

SPEAKER_96: percentage are you like doomer versus uh boomer i'm 100 boomer not from an age perspective but from a optimist perspective yes i i think where these guys got it wrong is i wouldn't be right if i'm in the corporate world right now i'm not writing skills to get rid of my co-workers i'm writing skills to get rid of myself i'm putting out skills so that i can automate myself i'm going i'm using open claw to build a business on the side so i don't care about the corporate world anymore so i'm not like in jail from the corporate world i think there's way bigger opportunity outside so these people i think they're doing it wrong you got to automate yourself not your co-workers yeah as in uh ai boomer ai

SPEAKER_166: doomer just percentage-wise where are you at right now specifically employment being the one that people

SPEAKER_16: seem to be scared of will leave the terminator skynet you know the thing gets out of control

SPEAKER_22: off the table right now just here this is the debate of our ages right now and it's leaning towards

SPEAKER_24: doomer here in the us where are you where are you leaning right now i'm probably like half half you

SPEAKER_172: know i i don't think um and i've seen a lot of people like just tweeting about open claw and you know all the variants of open claw but there's probably a very small percentage of them that are actually making money off the thing i mean there's there's very few examples i saw nat nat elison i think uh who has his open claw and that's probably the best example uh where i think it's like it's making more than a million dollars ar i don't know if it got there but i mean it's selling like open claw skills so it's not exactly doing something sort of you know uh earth shattering or creating any sort of new business um so i don't know i'm probably like 50 50. i think i definitely see like you know some aspects of you know work that can be um they can be improved made more efficient but you know i don't see like the actual business impact and maybe that's you know just a matter of time until you have like all the right integrations and stuff in place or maybe not i don't know there is jason there's this sort of

SPEAKER_05: counter narrative that i feel like we've heard from david sachs a lot on all in here's a market

SPEAKER_07: here's a mark andreessen tweet from yesterday the ai job loss narratives are all fake ai equals massive rampant productivity equals massive rampant demand equal equals massive jobs boom watch and i i have to say i'm i keep hearing this and and i there is something to it i what i would say is to me it doesn't

SPEAKER_43: feel like gaff is anywhere near ready to work by himself like even if he was in a mac studio i feel

SPEAKER_07: like i would still need to be there giving him feedback pointers asking him to do things i don't think he's ready to replace me he's ready to do like but now compare that to one year ago your

Chamath Palihapitiya: opinion right two years ago your opinion on chat gpt but i still feel like to me it feels too soon to be

SPEAKER_07: like there we're not going to have any more need for people all these companies are going to be entirely bot run i feel like for the the near future at least we do want humans in the loop

SPEAKER_43: but it does feel like a lot fewer humans to me like yeah here's mark andreessen yeah he says employer

SPEAKER_80: recovery from post-covid hiring correction employee recovery from post-covid interest rate spike

SPEAKER_22: electricity elasticity equals demand you know i understand the concept here hey people become more ambitious they start more companies these tools enable more sure but you know there's a there are entire careers that will be retired and i think it's deflationary so compensation is also going to come down they're even laying off people in india i don't know if you saw this but a lot of people in india are starting to get laid off and that's actually been concerning to people but let's get into it let's talk a little bit more about the technology itself today uh and and where we're at well we

SPEAKER_68: got a top story we got to talk about everybody's been talking about it all weekend uh on friday

SPEAKER_07: evening in a blog post uh anthropic announced that they were uh stopping they claude subscriptions no longer cover third-party access for tools like open claw this took uh go make the youtube face this started on uh saturday april 4th it was announced an email sent out friday evening uh so instead they're offering a pay-as-you-go option uh built separately from your main claude subscription to cover it here's uh anthropic exec boris tyranny on x we've been working hard to meet the increase in demand for claude and our subscriptions weren't built for the usage patterns of these third-party tools capacity is a resource we manage thoughtfully and we are prioritizing our customers using our products and api

SPEAKER_126: so that that to me alex rug full yeah when you're a busy founder you move fast sometimes you break things that's the job but when you want to land those big wells those lighthouse customers you know the major enterprise clients you can't move fast and break things no you need to make sure your security and compliance is locked down tight tight is right that's why founder university and i recommend startups work with vanta they're the leading security compliance solution that's being used by more than 15 000 customers vanta's not just going to help you with your sock too their ai first system is going to continually monitor your filings and compliance so big important deals are never going to get hung up that's why you need a trusted partner like vanta they understand changing regulations and buyer expectations so you don't have to sweat any of the details vanta's going to do that for you twist listeners to get one thousand dollars off at vanta.com twist that's v-a-n-t-a dot com twist

SPEAKER_96: for one thousand dollars off listen i don't like it because it costs me money and i don't like anything that costs me money but i will say i totally understand it you're right all the subscriptions are are subsidies that's it that's all like you're you're just getting a lot of tokens for a small price so what sense would it make for anthropic to subsidize other companies tools that doesn't make sense you know they do the subsidy so they can collect data on clawed code and data on other clawed tools so that they can improve those products but if you use that subscription open claw which they don't control that's just polluting the data so i hate it because i now have to spend more money uh but i get why they did it and just as a side note i think the people who's ripping out clawed out of their open claw now are making a tremendous mistake yes it's going to be more because opus 4 6 is clearly the best model for open claw like anyone who's used chat gpt or kim or anyone once knows it is a downgrade and in some cases a significant downgrade i personally believe open clause most powerful tool out there so i think it would be silly to virtue signal and be like oh i'm ripping out claude when all you're doing just hurting your own productivity so i've got a

SPEAKER_152: data i've got a data point on this right so i've actually been using gpt 5.4 from the beginning on open claw um disclosure i have a bunch of credits uh on open ai api and i'm like i'll burn them down and it's interesting and i actually messaged you alex today about this because i started gpt 5.4 i've never used opus in uh in open claw in anger um so it's hard for me to compare them but for one day i decided to do it i'm like i want to feel the pain i don't have any anthropic credits and for one full day of using claw chief which is a high level chief of staff that's an open claw it was going to be three to six thousand dollars for per month right so you're talking 100 to 200 a day

SPEAKER_193: so these labs are hemorrhaging cash like if there's no way you this stuff cost you 200 a month it just

SPEAKER_24: doesn't so get used to it that's the key here is the entire industry and all the most powerful experiences

Chamath Palihapitiya: in it are massive um losses makes the losses of the uber and lyft competition when they were subsidizing rides or the food delivery it makes it look silly i you gotta think for every 20 or 200 subscription they're losing on that top third of users a multiple times that a multiple of that every time they get one of these power users they lose probably a couple of hundred dollars a year

SPEAKER_22: maybe a couple of thousand dollars a year so this is the next car to turn over in the ai race

SPEAKER_52: when open eye goes public when uh anthropic goes public even to a lesser extent when spacex goes public they probably won't have to disclose all the way down to the xai granular level because it's

SPEAKER_22: part of like many different businesses and it might not be material so they'll report on the starlink business unit but they may not have to report granular levels anthropic is going to have to give these details in their s1 and so is open ai and there was a story this weekend that open ai uh had a little internal debate between sam altman and the cfo sarah fryer of like maybe sam's like racing towards the cliff and this this is all

SPEAKER_52: allegedly the cfo is not happy about the spend um yazin i want you to comment on this tweet not this

SPEAKER_00: one we'll get to that in a second i put another tweet in um of uh caveman i don't know if you guys

SPEAKER_202: saw caveman did you see this yazin yeah my brother sent me this uh this tweet you know explain what

SPEAKER_172: this is and if you buy it yeah i think that there's probably some truth to this i i didn't actually try it but explain what it is to the audience listening so the idea is you know there's uh i guess the english language has a lot of fluff um you can probably get your message across using just like verbs and maybe you know a few adjectives uh and that's essentially what this is is like you know instead of blabbering on about how oh you know i i went ahead and did this thing you could just say thing did thing and you know that's like 75 fewer tokens um and then so this was basically this guy

SPEAKER_208: owned patel said i taught claude to talk like a caveman to use 75 less tokens normal claude 180

SPEAKER_50: tokens for a web search task caveman claude 45 tokens i would have gone i executed the web search tool

SPEAKER_22: equals eight tokens caveman version tool work two tokens i would have said i wouldn't be surprised

SPEAKER_172: that it actually works i think the the problem is you might end up speaking like a caveman if yes

SPEAKER_202: if you do this because i mean you're if that's all you're reading it's it's going to affect your

SPEAKER_42: vocabulary at some point the good news here alan is i think we're moving into the phase for the

SPEAKER_22: industry that there's tremendous value being created people have become addicted to it just now insert

Chamath Palihapitiya: ride sharing for the same thing now people have to pay the proper amount for it and the businesses

SPEAKER_22: have to move from being upside down and having a very deep j curve the j curve as i said on all in and i think here will be 500 billion dollars for the llm industry like you know 100 200 200 or 300 billion for open ai 100 billion for claude 100 billion for xai whatever it is winds up being they're going to

Chamath Palihapitiya: have to become profitable in three or four years and then pay back 500 billion dollars in paid in capital from their profits to make this industry absolutely work compute that should be a scary proposition to

SPEAKER_43: people compute also has to come down in like wildly in cost i feel like it's just not nobody can afford

SPEAKER_07: to pay what we need to pay for everybody to run their open claw like we're talking about you know like and we've been off the users have been offsetting it to anthropic now they can't afford it so they're throttling claw and it's like at some point we we have to figure this out or it's just imbalanced it costs too

SPEAKER_75: much to run opus 4.6 as much as people i mean so the show is this week in startups right we're all startup founders right and we are mercenaries for money right yeah and and i think it's very simple

SPEAKER_152: right if your open clause actually doing valuable work for you for instance chief of staff marketing manager etc say you have to pay three grand a month it's nothing right the value you're getting out of that compared to a human that you would have paid to do that job is astronomical right and it's retainable it's improvable it it's scalable right so i think you have to separate out these folks that are toying with open claw and they're mad that they it doesn't cost them two dollars a month to real operators who are building businesses with this stuff and i'll give alex a layup here and basically say well the mercenaries for money are going to then do what he's doing with with open

SPEAKER_96: models yeah well there's there's two things that are going to happen here uh the first thing is it's obvious that in the next month or so we're gonna start getting two thousand dollar a month subscription plan it's like that's just painfully obvious the next round of models which they're already kind of hinting at spud and mythos saying much bigger much more expensive models who's doing each one spud and mythos shot gbt 55 is spud mythos is claude and so they're both kind of leaking over the last couple weeks these are brand new models you know nothing to do with their past models much bigger

SPEAKER_233: much more expensive i think that you're saying the two thousand dollar a month yes subscription to

Chamath Palihapitiya: claude and open ai is coming for consumers twenty four thousand dollars a year essentially a third of the salary of uh you know two or three year out of school uh college graduate um that's going to be

SPEAKER_205: the next tier in order to use those models that scale yeah i said if it doesn't happen this year

SPEAKER_96: i'll delete all my social media accounts i i'm not confident it's going to happen it it only makes

SPEAKER_22: total sense showmanship okay no i and you know what alex i'm gonna i'm gonna say i think you're

SPEAKER_24: 100 correct here what's happening now is they got us on the hook they showed us how productive this

SPEAKER_204: stuff can be they got us to go from a 20 subscription to a 200 because it was like well it's 180 bucks more it's whatever it is 2000 a year hey if we save 10 hours uh a month of lawns time that's worth thousands

SPEAKER_22: of dollars okay great we're going to save money with this now they're going to appropriately price it this is like going from a five dollar uber or lyft remember the five dollar uber and lyft rides

SPEAKER_204: to the you know 16 one you're like well 16 is a lot of money compared to taking the bus for 350 or the subway for 350 but i'm kind of used to this and i love it yeah so i'm gonna go door to door

SPEAKER_22: for 16. i'll figure out how to get the other you know i'll figure out where to get the you know

SPEAKER_07: incremental nine dollars one one thing that was a big news story last week that seems to have really died out was this like clawed code leaked and now it's open everybody can find it is anybody

SPEAKER_241: considering using like an open clawed like a variation on clawed code that got forked or is that not

SPEAKER_126: interesting every founder at some point confronts self-doubt it's just part of the job starting any kind of new project from a startup to a podcast it's a leap of faith right you gotta have confidence you got to get in there but there's one thing that can really boost your confidence and help you persevere through this journey and that's having an amazing partner you can trust like the launch accelerator and our friends at shopify shopify is the e-commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world in fact they're powering 10 of all e-commerce in the united states from household names like hines and mattel to companies that are just getting started and if that's you they're going to help you launch your new site with your own design studio that's right with hundreds of ready-to-use templates shopify is going to set you up with an elite online story that fits perfectly with your brand style and if you ever get stuck shopify always has someone around to help out 24 7 365 days a year so it's time to turn those what-ups into sign up for your one dollar per month trial today at shopify.com twist that's shopify.com twist all right so i i spent you know

SPEAKER_152: six months inside of one of the the premier agent labs um which was amp and you know i know how this stuff works and this stuff you know you ship 30 times a day so whatever we saw is outdated um you know there's some tricks with memory and some things in there but honestly none of it was surprising um just just use the stuff people like there's whole companies that are doing this don't try to build a company to for a tool that you can just buy i love having the open source models just to

SPEAKER_22: and having powerful local computers i like this because it feels like they're going to flip in the

Chamath Palihapitiya: next year and when it does i want to be ready to go doesn't mean i won't pay the 2000 but we fired up three more on my mac studio three more open source models they're running concurrently and we're testing putting jobs against all of them there's a startup that's doing i got pitched on that's doing intelligent

SPEAKER_22: routing of queries um so you you do your query and then it instantly is like uh i think it's best for this one or let's try it at this one and then see if we get a result that we think is good enough and then we'll fail over to the next one and then fell over to this one so that's going to be an

Chamath Palihapitiya: extraordinary dynamic process like can you imagine you send a a query and it's like you know what kimmy kimmy can do this oh no that's you got to use gamma is that what they call the uh the google one gemma gemma four people going crazy about gemma four as well so i i just think

SPEAKER_22: that's the the future of it getting that setup is a lot of work but if somebody abstracts it

SPEAKER_96: it's super easy it's actually i think very kind of overrated uh everyone's saying how difficult it is to do i have three mac studios and a dgx spark here first of all i agree it's clearly the future right the more these companies squeeze which they're doing the squeezing now banning open claw you know making the pricing more expensive everyone's saying the limits for claw to have come down everyone's saying opus is getting stupider the more they squeeze the more people are going to go to the dgx sparks the mac studios and as you said open models have been about six months behind for the last few years so right now they're at about sonnet four five which was six months ago all i do to load these new models gemma four came out i go to open claw i say hey i think gemma four just came out figure it out it goes it installs it for you so the complexity is pretty much gone and i think as people feel more and more the squeeze they'll be running out and buying this hardware uh and loading

SPEAKER_22: these up wait till it is built into your operating system and this was ryan's old enough to remember

Chamath Palihapitiya: this remember like having to install tcp ip and put an ethernet card into a computer to get people on the internet and like it doesn't work and like oh what's their port you know when i when i first

SPEAKER_05: went to ucla you had to go wait outside the library with your hard drive so that they could install their

SPEAKER_241: ethernet card into your computer and you could go use the internet in your room so yeah yeah so you know

Chamath Palihapitiya: once it's abstracted away and like there's a system tray and the system tray is just automatically updating these models and i can see it so clearly i just spent thirty four hundred dollars on my mac m2 m5 my mac m5 48 gigs of ram i could have gone even higher and i was like it doesn't seem necessary but i bought this thing and i was like i don't have a there's no cost difference for a business between a fifteen hundred dollar laptop and a five thousand dollar laptop there's no difference any business that's a viable business with 10 employees it's a 35 000 difference over five years which is a six thousand dollar difference which is a 500 a month difference it doesn't make a difference we've just gotten used to computers being fifteen hundred dollars they used to be when i was growing up the first pc was four thousand dollars that was in 1984 1983 that's three times that so they were originally

SPEAKER_22: twelve thousand dollars it was like buying a used car or even like a new cheap car we're gonna get back to that people are gonna start looking at hey when you hire somebody yeah you gotta put into account a 10k 15k worth of hardware that's where i think it's all going but i want to see yazin's incredible demo he came on last time and he showed me hey what if you had um you know this assistant that could be in your zoom and could chat with you i said you know what i want i want like four or five people on the podcast one of them a fact checker one of them writing jokes basically the entire stern crew from jackie martling to gary del abate to whoever like the

SPEAKER_204: smartest person is in the back fred fred john hein fred norris just all contributing pieces

SPEAKER_22: quietly to the host and their earpiece are on like a little monitor you know text-based monitor so we're going to see that in a minute he built it i'd also like to thank uh sam altman for buying

Chamath Palihapitiya: the podcast bros network because they got rid of all of the advertising so welcome to all the

SPEAKER_265: podcast bro advertisers who are now here why do they do that i i'm still scratching my head

SPEAKER_145: okay uh okay i could explain it in like three acts number one in a peak bubble acquisitions happen

Chamath Palihapitiya: that do not make logical sense because people have valuations that don't make sense and then

SPEAKER_22: people want the stock of these magical companies so if you're sitting there and you have a way to get a hundred million or two hundred million in pre-ipo open ai shares you're going to consider that right even if your company's making 20 or 30 million like theirs was and it's on a tear uh not in viewership but in the the revenue and the vibes number two these one of the guys worked with sam walton before i've been an investor in his company sam altman's looking at a communication deficit at open ai that people are saying like is there achilles heel so if somebody says your achilles heel is that every time somebody at open ai talks the value of the company goes down trust in the company goes down the public perception of the company goes down it's like well who's got good vibes hey these tech bros just keeping it all light and positive never saying anything negative just keeping it upbeat

SPEAKER_268: banging a gong doing a soundboard you know hey everybody hey welcome to the morning show you know

SPEAKER_272: hey and they're doing kazoos and it's fine like that keeps it world positive and i'm not goofing on them i'm just saying like it's great like awesome like keep it positive that's what sam needs so bringing

Chamath Palihapitiya: them in to take the vibes playbook ryan and apply it to open ai's just horrific the public political investor community's view of that company what if it works what if they can turn the vibes around turning the vibes around on a trillion dollar company how much is that worth is it worth one percent yes is it worth five percent yes if you could take a company with really bad vibes which i think we'd all

SPEAKER_275: agree opening it has some bad vibes around a little insider for that i feel like these guys are they wildly popular among people who already of course it doesn't need to make perfect sense yeah it doesn't

Chamath Palihapitiya: need to make perfect sense i'm giving you the contours of a weird thing that occurred it is how a weird

SPEAKER_147: thing occurred it is that's the thing just the numbers are weird like it's it's so much for don't worry about the numbers don't just take the numbers out of your head all right all right and say

SPEAKER_145: i gave you a trillion dollars in monopoly money the company is worth you know uh 250 billion yeah based

SPEAKER_136: on its burn and reality right but it's it's in funny money territory it's magically worth a trillion so each dollar is worth four times so then instead of making a 50 well no but but is is the implication

SPEAKER_96: there that they are going to like kind of change their editorial style to like glaze open ai more like

SPEAKER_284: wouldn't that fundamentally i don't think it's erode trust in them and their own company i don't i

SPEAKER_21: don't think anybody looked at them as a place to get you know objective hard-hitting ask the hard

Chamath Palihapitiya: question journalism they got the vibes like hey hey everybody come on the show we're buying the gong congratulations you know tell me about your business we're done there was nobody like you didn't have a jessica lesson there or a kara swisher or you know into a lesser extent someone like me being like hey here's a hard question they're not asking hard questions there to try to and they're certainly not doing gotcha journalism like some of those folks might and they're not certainly doing agenda-based anti-tech socialist journalism like at the new york times or wired magazine you know so i don't think anybody like is looking to i think it's a little rose for objectivity in the

SPEAKER_43: middle i think if they're if they're constantly having open ai people on and just swooning over them i do think people would get tired oh sure but they wouldn't do that yeah i think they've got to

SPEAKER_22: keep a a better balance i'll tell you the big you want to know what the big risk factor is you're

David Friedberg: working with a the other group of companies will not participate right so like it's very hard for me to get democrats to participate in all in since three of the four guys are like i get that i understand two of them are in the administration one of them's a super donor or whatever they call a

Chamath Palihapitiya: super bundler so you have three people who are all in on the trump you know you ask you know josh shapiro to come on the program or pete budaj edge i got pete budaj edge to come i got josh shapiro

SPEAKER_22: coming on it's just hard you know they're just like that's not my home court advantage so that's

Chamath Palihapitiya: what's going to happen anybody who's outside or competing with open ai they may be like i'll take

SPEAKER_147: a pass on being on this podcast but anyway it's not important anyway they're getting 50 000 views an issue

Chamath Palihapitiya: this is aqua hiring a very talented group of marketers and storytellers if anybody were to say like what's the skill set of those guys it's like building vibes you know taking like that sports show morning show and then just adapting it and making all the vibes immaculate that's like they make the vibes immaculate sam waltman's like these vibes are not immaculate everybody who speaks for our company steps in it let's let these guys speak for our company and keep the vibes positive

SPEAKER_97: go ahead alex you're shaking your head and you're you're perplexed because i think it goes again i it

SPEAKER_96: just doesn't make sense to me because they even said it themselves they've done too many side quests lately the only thing anyone cares about anyone in this industry cares about is what is the quality of your model right they could do whatever they want people get pissed off at 90 of the things anthropic says and does but they don't care they keep using claude for everything because it is the best model opus 4-6 is the best model right i just don't understand from opening eyes perspective why they keep getting distracted by the video sora and this just make chad gbt as good as humanly possible and every other problem goes away the moment codex is better than claude code

SPEAKER_285: no one cares about what you say what you do 100 correct you just want a good model that's it

SPEAKER_197: this is an important tactical practical thing for founders at the end of the day the product is the

Chamath Palihapitiya: most important thing everything else around the product is very important but the product is most important that's why when people say like you can't put lipstick on a pig like trying to really work hard on your sales team and your marketing team to get better leads to get people to try a product and do a demo to put them on a trial all that's fine i've seen it countless times in a company where the product didn't have product market fit we called it a leaky bucket there was

SPEAKER_22: a hole in the bucket so you're pouring money into the top of the bucket to get leads to

SPEAKER_197: buy better sales people whatever and it just flows right out because the product's not as good as another product in the market well jason i'll give you the ultimate example of this i'll give you

SPEAKER_285: the ultimate example this over the weekend i saw the best concert of my entire life i went to see

SPEAKER_116: kanye west in la i knew that 45 songs i knew it was this guy is the most insane human being that's ever walked this planet has said the most hateful things any public figure has ever said in history

SPEAKER_179: on his is he released a song called hail hitler the most literally words ever and you know what

SPEAKER_285: happened i went to sofi stadium 80 000 people singing along to his music because the product is amazing if your product is amazing you can do quite literally anything you want people will

SPEAKER_139: still come to you you could you could write a hitler theme song and sell out a stadium for two

SPEAKER_05: minutes and we're on a signal chat together just wasn't that the very first thing i said i'm like

SPEAKER_43: if he said he apologized if he's gonna play run away i'm gonna go see it like i don't i don't care he

SPEAKER_310: sold swastika shirts during the super bowl he sold swastika he said he's sorry i'm ready to hear

SPEAKER_162: can't tell and you're jewish you're jewish you're ready to move on to take this back to reality and ai

SPEAKER_152: and technology everybody yes please help me out here a very real example a very real example is this right anthropic is terrible at dev rel they are the worst company i've ever seen do developer relations they're just are the worst right and then you you you look at codex so the codex team in open ai they are one of the best their dev rel team is killer right but the truth is people as alex said what are we still using to do our work in its opus 4.6 so it's the model it's the model it's the model it's the

SPEAKER_36: model it's the model i think yeah make the model better at all costs speaking of products jason we've

SPEAKER_322: got two demos let you should we should we jump in let's go demo or die time yes yeah demo so or die

SPEAKER_07: yazin was on the show back in march uh he was going to show us uh he showed us open oats and while we were discussing it jason mentioned his idea for a cluster of agents that function as live podcast producers doing the job of say howard stern show or say yours truly me lon harris does during live shows uh within days of his appearance yazin tweeted uh this multi-persona ai sidebar for podcasts and live streams he's calling it sidecast yazin show us show us around all right so uh

SPEAKER_172: this is open notes jason and law you guys had this idea of um of having like a like a sidecast you already have the stuff sort of calculated beforehand so it's really just doing like search and retrieval you're not doing live search and i was a bit concerned about like okay is it going to be too slow if you're having a live call for the thing to go out there find information pick it up and and show it to you the way like a fact checker researcher might need to do and

SPEAKER_07: that is uh i will say as a person who does live fact checking and research that's a human concern

SPEAKER_43: like i'm often not able to get the right piece of information until before jason has moved on to the next point on the show so that's not even just an agent worry that's a real worry for a human producer

SPEAKER_172: as well exactly and so i thought like the latency is probably going to be like a bit too difficult to to you know have in like a live setting and i was shocked um so i'll show you guys what i got um so here the the core idea is you need an llm provider this could be like a local uh olama i'm using open router here um because i'm running this on my uh on my on my mac mini you configure your personas and these will these will look pretty familiar so you got like the fact checker this is uh so something that highlights uh facts and missing nuance sure and for each of these you you can provide your own prompt and there's also a toggle for whether it uh supports a live web search or not um so for the fact checker you obviously need uh live web search and then you can configure other things like um how how long the responses are and you know how often it would step in the next is also the archivist this will pick up like uh like previous i don't know how similar is this you know this thing that people are currently discussing in the context of the video to you know past events yeah like going back into

SPEAKER_22: the archive taking all 2 000 plus episodes having it have that in you know some amount of the topics maybe like the um couldn't put all the transcripts into memory but you could probably have most of the

SPEAKER_147: timestamps in there so 2 000 timestamps times 20 lines each 40 000 lines maybe that would work even

SPEAKER_07: just the last you know six months would be super helpful it doesn't have to have the full you know 20 year archive of the show but even just the last six months would be like hey you previously mentioned this in february you mentioned this in january like i can't keep up with that at the pace of the show

SPEAKER_241: so this is something that you'd need an agent to producer to do yazan where's the context coming

SPEAKER_172: from on this for the archive so the knowledge base feature that i shared earlier uh allows you to search

SPEAKER_207: through the knowledge base and this will surface stuff from the web so you can you can combine both

Chamath Palihapitiya: of those things i think a really interesting thing for the archive is to do would be to look for things that rhyme you know how they say history doesn't repeat it rhymes if you taught it a skill uh ryan that was like take the trends that we're talking about and look for analogies describe the trend in plain english and then look for analogies from other time periods so it's like oh yeah we're in the j curve people are investing a lot of money they're losing money on each customer like oh yeah that's exactly what uber and lyft did and doordash oh no that's even more similar to this that occurred in the 90s with the websites they were acquiring customers for 500 each and they hoped to have a lifetime value and they were putting a value on page views right pages as the perfect example of and this is something a bogus metric

SPEAKER_05: we've struggled with so much because a podcast has so much inherited knowledge like if a person

SPEAKER_07: produces your podcast for three years they're so they know everything you've talked about they remember all these shows they have this head full of knowledge and then they leave and a new producer

SPEAKER_43: comes in no matter how good they are they don't have that familiarity but now we we could sort of

SPEAKER_348: have a bot that has that familiarity yeah i think we got to do this with time stamps we have to have the

Chamath Palihapitiya: entire archive what we need to do is have a canonical perfect archive somewhere on a mac studio you know

SPEAKER_349: on the web have it build a wikipedia of each episode when gaff has his own mac studio what he'll maintain

SPEAKER_22: well yeah and then have it make like um its own wikipedia like a grokipedia on the local of every episode of everybody who's been on as a guest you know have a ryan carson page where it's like one was on these four times here's his appearances here's his you know what he's done in his career here's his linkedin so that just all that knowledge is right there really fast at its fingertips so you could do real-time stuff because that's actually the mind-blowing thing about this alex is we're starting to move from being able to do a query and hey go get a cup of coffee turn on your notifications for your browser and it's going to give you an alert hey remember you did that

SPEAKER_52: you know deep research three minutes ago now i want deep research in real time and that is

SPEAKER_329: you know that's got to be a couple years away i think yeah uh the maybe feed it notion the dockets

SPEAKER_172: other stuff you know i think this would be this would be crazy like just feed all the context and like i said i'm i'm actually surprised at how well this worked even with web which i thought would just be insanely slow i'll go through the rest of these so there's the sniper for just punchy one-liners uh and then you know short quips uh and then the menace this is kind of like uh you know a bit of a yeah you kind of set these up and you can also create your own um so these are just

SPEAKER_22: the uh the suggestions that you that you provided jason you imagine you have a chat room on youtube or linkedin or whatever and it's not you know it's not super vibrant people are kind of chilling

Chamath Palihapitiya: now you send in five personas and say hey mix it up in there read what they're saying and what they're saying on the show so you have two inputs the comments and the show transcript and it learns over time ryan um how to get more engagement how to rage bait and you just teach it like

SPEAKER_22: you know you do a kind of reinforcement learning if you get more people to view the live stream if you

SPEAKER_362: get more people to reply to you if you get people to block you you're doing your job i'll double down

SPEAKER_338: on your idea like i i think if these pers these personas become actual personas uh say on x

SPEAKER_152: right the the interestingness of what they say goes up right so so say that you basically you build these pundits and on x they have interesting things to say when you see them live and uh commenting on

SPEAKER_246: the show it has even more credibility where you're like oh that's actually an interesting point and i like this uh this bots take a view uh you know point of view hallux people must be doing this for

Chamath Palihapitiya: their reddit have you figured out how to get your open claw to like operate in reddit well so i have

SPEAKER_96: it doing a lot of consuming of reddit so i'm actually announcing uh a a product in uh about an hour from now in which uh i have basically swarms of agents at the moment looking at reddit all these other sites looking for challenges to solve and so i have it doing more of a consuming side rather than

SPEAKER_285: talking side but the flip side of this will be actually doesn't he try to block you if you do too

SPEAKER_97: many searches too much stuff it's always like no bueno yeah but there's ways around it they're

SPEAKER_07: very perspicuous on reddit but if you're very active they'll overlook some stuff it's just you can't

SPEAKER_145: you can't just drop in and okay so here it is you got uh a previous show you went to the 43 minute mark

SPEAKER_22: you hit play and now we're seeing the transcript underneath it and in the side we're starting to see the four personas give feedback and the archivist says don't confuse prosumer stickiness with mass adoption microsoft copilot had 15 million enterprise seats but stagnant consumer growth proving

SPEAKER_222: that cool tech doesn't always translate to paying customer scale yeah and as as the conversation flows

SPEAKER_172: you're going to see more input from uh the the checker the sniper uh the menace this is from the checker

SPEAKER_52: the precede bar is up because product velocity is up yeah allows teams to reach scale exponentially

SPEAKER_30: faster that's true i don't know how it came to that conclusion but that is a correct you can see the

SPEAKER_172: sources uh under each one of these so web citations you can see all the sources that it used uh at the

SPEAKER_204: time of the generation i mean this is really powerful i think if you think about lon the real world and

SPEAKER_00: metaglasses yeah now you're operating in the real world you're at uh you know a comedy show or a bar

SPEAKER_52: in uh you know austin and you're thinking of clever things to say you know you're talking to a couple of interesting people at the bar and it's like hey maybe you could bring up something about this song on the radio and it's giving you prompts like hey here's your romance coach here's your fascinating coach here's your you know non-creepy coach and it's coaching you on how to talk to people for people who maybe are a little shy or don't know how to break the ice it's it's really fascinating

SPEAKER_07: yeah real-time coaching it's another one of those things that makes you sort of think of her where he's got samantha in his ear and she's just talking to him and prompting him all day like

SPEAKER_43: we're getting we're getting to that world where it's real time in the actual app you can just you

SPEAKER_172: can just hide it off the screen so it's not visible when you're doing screen sharing and now you've got facts at your fingertips you've got you know perfect memory so you can pull stuff out at the archive you you know punch you one-liners you got you know uh this is what clearly was this is

SPEAKER_82: what clearly was supposed to be right and sometimes but actually useful they sort of backed off now and

SPEAKER_43: they're just doing a i know taking again but this was the original pitch for flu especially the

SPEAKER_05: it disappears on other people's screen so they can't see that you're cheating that was the whole

SPEAKER_07: clue thing all right well done we want to check out claw chief that's ryan's uh founder chief of staff open claw protocol that he released the other day uh from ryan he says it is opinionated about the architecture of the workflow but meant to be customized for your own people programs calendars

SPEAKER_43: inboxes trackers and recurring routines the uh post was how to turn your open claw into the world's best

SPEAKER_152: assistant like everybody probably watching this show like everybody here on stage we are starting to use open claws to do real work in our companies right um and the obvious first choice for a claw is your assistant and chief of staff um and actually jason i was just thinking about um you know what you all were saying on all in recently about assistance and how this kind of works um so so that's the first thing you did i wanted to turn r2 my claw into the world's best chief staff so you know i've been fortunate to work with real human eas over the years i've hired probably two or three of them and and you know i've seen what they can do and and how good they are and how you know much they fall short so um i started designing my open claw around that um and it was getting so good um i was like maybe it's funny i was like maybe i should build a little side business off this uh and and charge for it um and then i quickly realized i have no time for that i don't care about that uh i'm just gonna open source it um and so i released claw chief uh version one and everybody loves it and uh then very quickly i saw the interview with brex and uh um the the founder of brex went on to a show and explained specifically tactically uh how he's augmented his claw and it's awesome so you have uh basically a priority plane document there's all this machinery and so i just released v2 of claw chief it's on github right so i don't know if we can throw up the github if people want to go see it but um it's free it's open source just point your open claw at it and say

SPEAKER_79: use this um and uh i think you'll see a big big jump in uh in ability so and you gave it its own

SPEAKER_24: behavioral traits based on an executive assistant and uh it's actually less behavioral and and more

SPEAKER_152: uh more execution right so there are there's a list of crons right that run uh so for instance the executive assistant cron runs every 15 minutes and all the cron says is use your executive executive assistant skill so you have a cron that fires on a regular basis and that cron what's in the skill then so this is the magic i mean this is what i worked on for weeks right and it's it it's how a good executive assistant should work right so um if you look at it you'll see it's in depth right um it's how to respond to emails like do you respond the same thread you know uh how quickly do you follow up uh how do you check the calendars and and how to use gog which is the primary cli interface so it's all the tactics it's the real stuff um and then there's a biz dev skill which there's a cron that runs business development and it calls the skill and in biz dev skill it just does all the stuff that you also want a really good chief of staff to do you know today r2 my claw has already booked three meetings for me like and these are not just me passing on hey r2 book this meeting this these

SPEAKER_397: are real people that i'm doing business development with that i've never talked to um so here we go

SPEAKER_05: we do all right jason we do have a clip from that uh core memory podcast with pedro franceschi the ceo and co-founder brex here's he he describes he set up a thing called a claw trap for a crab trap

SPEAKER_07: for reigning in unpredictable agent behavior this is pretty amazing let's check out let's check out

SPEAKER_402: that clip we we we're actually going to open source this but we actually build this entire like technology layer um we actually call it crab trap uh funnily enough where the idea is when you have something like open claw running um we the best way to monitor what an agent is doing isn't to have a human looking at it it's actually have another llm looking at it so we build this thing that effectively intercepts all the traffic coming out of like an open client instance and routes it through another llm that's through an http proxy that screens all the traffic and says is this something that a recruiter agent should be doing so for example should a recruiting agent send like a harmful message to a candidate no um and it can go in and block that request at the network layer while the agent itself is even not even aware that that's happening and the really cool thing of that is you can actually run this at scale and the only technology that we think will be able to monitor agents is actually agents themselves but you build this almost adversarial effect where you have one agent monitoring another agent um and we've seen surprisingly good outcomes of

SPEAKER_195: this thing so far amazing and then here is on github the skill for executive assistant um i thought this was really well done did you i guess you asked it to make this and then you edited it a bit you had

SPEAKER_406: yeah it and i was actually going to say everyone we don't read coding more but we should read markdown

SPEAKER_407: so there's a lot of markdown here and pay attention to this um but yeah i just worked with r2 on this over

David Friedberg: and over again until it was great so if you go to github obviously you have claw chief skills the

SPEAKER_22: executive assistant skill and then you have skill.md that's the structure of uh open claw and it has its name it has its description perform owner names executive assistant workflow using google workspace

Chamath Palihapitiya: viagog uh and your chat messaging layer for updates use when handling general inbox triage sending short operational email replies scheduling yada yada uh operating standard be decisive brief and useful clear low-risk operational work instead of escalating everything use priority map to decide what matters and what can be batched use the auto resolver to decide whether to act draft escalate or ignore uh if the signal is primarily a lead status outreach tracker prospect pipeline item routed through

SPEAKER_22: business development workflow instead of treating it as a generic ea task like this is fantastic i've worked

Chamath Palihapitiya: a lot on it and it works yeah meeting note ingestion read it extract principal tasks assistant tasks decisions and follow-ups classify them through the priority map run auto resolver policy update claw chief slash task md and any other live source of truth in the same turn record notes in blah blah blah blah blah inbox handling rules uh handle without asking first when authority is clear meeting scheduling short acknowledgement replies confirming receipt boom and this is coming from you or from

SPEAKER_152: your assistant when you do it these are mostly messages to your assistant right so uh it's everything you want a good ea to do like this is this is from 25 years of experience of working with eas and

SPEAKER_97: people right all right well done uh anything else on the docket for us lon do you want a quick priest we're in demo mode here i could do a quick two second demo what i've been working on yes

SPEAKER_285: please yes okay this is an official announcement i was going to reveal this on my live stream after this but i'm just so inspired by ryan and yazina i kind of want to demo it now twist exclusive folks this is a twist exclusive let's do it this is henry intelligent machines this is something i've been working on for a while this is autonomous swarms of agents finding challenges and solving them for you and basically the way this works is i have many many agents right now running locally on my multiple computers going out and finding challenges online going on reddit x youtube product hunt message boards thousand literally thousands of different sites finding challenges people are having and then autonomously solving them and earning revenue and so here's what you see here's your dashboard you see how much revenue you made that month you can go in here and it finds custom opportunities and challenges based on your interests so did deep research on me found things i'm interested in found opportunities based on those interests on many many different websites and now i can go in see the opportunity see what the thesis is around this challenge this is an ai workflow automation playbook for creators and so it wants to start a business around ai workflow automation it has a proposed plan of how it's going to start this business a breakdown in the market size competitive advantage feasibility timing all that and then i can just say launch this venture give it a budget so i'm depositing money in it has money to work with it can you know launch facebook ads twitter ads instagram whatever give it a timeline of how long it has to make money or make revenue i launch it and now if i go into this active run henry is now going and building this business autonomously it is now building out the products it's going to post it to gumroad it's going to prepare an email campaign and it is uh going to autonomously start this business itself and now you scale this up you can start multiple ventures at once multiple businesses it eventually gets to the point where it sees okay uh this can be solved with a 3d printed item let me go find a 3d printing warehouse print out all these products and ship them autonomously for you so it is swarms of agents finding challenges and solving the challenges

SPEAKER_195: for you love it uh you know we've had two of these type of genres on the program in the last month or so

SPEAKER_22: which is i'll call um ryan startup in a box identify you know an interesting business one we had on friday

Chamath Palihapitiya: basically took the entire list and description and urls of every yc company ripped through them said how defensible are they and just make a fake version website felt sense i felt felt sense uh that was first friday the guy did it kind of to be provocative and then there was another one that was all from one interface i saw kevin rose interviewed the founder pulse yeah yeah and we had pulse on but we did we had pulse before he launched it formally i think and pulse is like i don't know more ryan like a platform like ebay or something where or airbnb where you can come in put in your business idea or your business and then kind of be in competition with other people to see who can grow it faster and like

SPEAKER_22: a little leaderboard almost like a sims it was kind of like reminding me of the sims what do you think this says about startup culture when alex can bring in you know the tried and true look for business ideas on reddit like it's always been like an underground thing like if you see people frustrated in a subreddit and then you solve their problem they might become your customers awesome like right great technique but here we are like one click make it one click do a a b test like eric reese and the startup and steve blankfeld the startup uh startup engine whatever they called it i think this is

SPEAKER_190: cool this gets you past the zero to one right yeah so your agent this is cool alex so your henry's out

SPEAKER_152: there like hey there's some business opportunities and you're like this is worth 200 bucks to see like is there anything here right and i'm sure you know he'll get you somewhere um and then as the model's getting better and better you know give us a year you'll probably see tools like henry actually building the business for real like where it's truly hand off you know i presume we're in a spot now where it gets you started does pretty good job but then you have to come in and be pretty hand-holdy um but we all know where this is going the the models are going to be are basically already

SPEAKER_05: agi so i'm interested in how proactive henry is i i'm sharing a tweet now in in the room where uh you

SPEAKER_07: said i woke up this morning and my uh a employee henry texted me that he did all these tasks overnight

SPEAKER_43: without asking he fixed bugs he read through your emails and built a crm gave you ideas for new videos uh and even to set you a nano banana image of itself where he he sees himself as an owl uh how are you reigning in how free henry feels like he should be or are you reigning in is henry basically could do whatever he wants overnight and if he spends tokens or whatever you're not you're not worried

SPEAKER_116: about it what's the what's the protocol i'm basically giving him complete freedom to consume

SPEAKER_285: as much as he wants and prepare the drafts of what he wants to do but anything that is public facing it just goes through an approval gate right so it can't go crazy and do things that will damage you but i'm giving him pretty complete freedom to one go online go anywhere he wants to build his own skills and tool sets so he can accomplish anything he wants and then right before that final gate that's where you have to approve or you can send a note back or you can edit so i'm trying to give it

SPEAKER_436: as much freedom as he possibly can have super powerful okay lon what else was in the docket

SPEAKER_05: uh all right well uh we could talk about hermes agent which is an open source agent from

SPEAKER_07: france's new research uh that was released in february um get uh the chart showing token use growth by hermes agent on one particular a api router on open router uh if we want to show that chart up lives on your server it remembers everything it learns and it gets more capable over time they call it the agent that grows with you uh and i know alex has been using it some so we

SPEAKER_24: want to chat with him so what do you think of this is it in any way going to challenge open claw and are you still dedicated to open claw when you see all these other tools coming out yeah so i've been

SPEAKER_285: using hermes agent uh pretty significantly over the last few weeks i do think it is a very strong tool i'm going to be honest i do not think it's as strong as open claw at the moment i'm having a ton of challenges when it comes to memory but i will say this i do think it's worth using it's very easy to put side by side with open claw they can communicate with each other there's acp so that they can talk to each other and have each other do different tasks uh i also i just like the the brand and the vision for the product they are on record of supporting local open source models they're building this for local open source models peter steinberger's on record as saying he does not support them he does not think they're good for open claw he does not recommend people using them so i think just from a spiritual direction uh well i think there's probably many reasons he he's scared that from a security perspective local models are more dangerous so he kind of goes for a i don't trust the consumer as much like by default i don't trust the consumer to use it correctly perspective which i don't agree with on the other hand you know hermy is the team it's like i trust the consumer i want them to use open agents and experiment and do random crazy things so i just like that direction more but i'm going to be honest like i think open claw at the moment is better

SPEAKER_108: i'm getting way better results but i'm using them side by side and i think they're worth using side by

SPEAKER_338: side this the switching costs are too high now forget it like i bet hermes is great i'm just

SPEAKER_152: all in an open claw and it will take me two weeks to to really see if hermes is good and i'm not interested in that i'm glad the team is building it uh and obviously they're gonna be supportive of local models and i love that um but you have to bet on on peter i mean and with the backing of open ai

SPEAKER_22: i know it's gonna be the best i saw dave morin said the new version of open ai is gonna not open

SPEAKER_424: i have open clause gonna drop this week is that correct i'm using it yeah you're using it morning

SPEAKER_397: yep oh it came out today yeah it shipped last night and they drop every day they have updates

SPEAKER_152: every single day r2 is using it it's got this really cool feature called dreaming um which is what humans do so when you sleep you're you're obviously consolidate your memories you you process the information that's why we need sleep um and now open claw does that overnight i'll let you know tomorrow like how it went ah i i have had trouble this morning uh with a couple technical issues in slack so there's some bugs um so it's not perfect and supposedly he's juiced gpt 5.4 to be really good

SPEAKER_451: in it um we'll see interesting um any thoughts yourself alex on it on the actual functionality

SPEAKER_285: around hermes i i think it's good i i am excited for the updates like open claw they just have more people working on it as well um from a actual migration perspective ryan they actually do have built-in migration in hermes where you can just like do hermes migrate and it'll take all your memories all your instructions everything in like a second and hermes so i i think it's worth testing

SPEAKER_96: out there's i mean i also think there's like psyops on social media where people are saying hermes is better and they don't actually believe it but they haven't used it right this is becoming a big thing

SPEAKER_208: uh on social media obviously is just people having opinions yeah based on where they place their events

SPEAKER_414: as a pro yeah i mean a hot take has its own no it's it's becoming acute i would say like i feel like

Chamath Palihapitiya: when i go on social media it's literally lobbyists and it's just one lobby versus the other we're back to

SPEAKER_22: like the mac it's all ops non-stop non-stop and i'm just tired of it tau versus solana mac versus pc

SPEAKER_461: android versus local models versus the algorithm it's literally go ahead it's a marketing strategy

SPEAKER_285: now from a lot of companies like the the infamous one is higgs field literally their entire marketing strategy is illegal undisclosed advertising they pay influencers to go say higgs fields incredible it's clearly an ad and like that's just like the entire marketing strategy for a lot of these

SPEAKER_43: companies did you see jason over the weekend our friend of the pod nick o'neill was tweeting non-stop about higgs field i was a little i got a little suspicious i have to say really yeah i think he's one of the i think he's one of the guys that higgs field is contracting to do this because

SPEAKER_35: he doesn't strike don't they have to disclose that now they're they're supposed to

SPEAKER_52: i know that this is happening because um uh the guy who's running product at x um nikita nikita he was like he dm'd me and he's like hey can you put a label on your polymarket tweet that it's an ad and i was like it's not an ad i don't sell my tweets and he's like okay fair enough and i'm like that was a weird interaction like oh i get it people are ratting people out like i might be a shareholder in a company but that doesn't mean i'm getting paid to tweet about the company so if i tweet i love uber that's not a paid ad but i am a shareholder this gets murky because i get a lot of

SPEAKER_338: credits so like and i disclosed it at the beginning of the show didn't i have a lot of open ai api credits

SPEAKER_152: fine um i have a lot of devon credits now fine like i actually think you you probably do need to disclose at a deeper level now you know because i'm not being paid by anybody but i i do yeah i mean

Chamath Palihapitiya: if so yeah i think it's like there's like multiple layers there's i'm explicitly being paid to do this

SPEAKER_136: clearly the ftc requires you to disclose that then there's i have an affiliation or i'm a shareholder in or i benefit some way if this company wins and that is like an optional thing i think or you could

Chamath Palihapitiya: put it on your landing page of disclosures like i'm an investor in 600 companies if you look through this list you're going to find a gazillion cross-referenced conflicts right i'm an lp and 21 venture firms like okay like i don't know what they've invested in so you start getting to conflicts for somebody like me in the most conflicted area in the world startup investing like i couldn't even tell you what i'm an investor and i probably have shares in lift from being in some venture firms and i don't even know it at some point somebody might give me shares in andrel

SPEAKER_52: because i'm an lp in their company and people like oh my god i thought you were banned from getting android and real shares like oh i don't know which one of my funds i'm in that i've gotten shares in so definitely more disclosure is uh but i thought that was like an interesting one

SPEAKER_35: yeah p ptg kyle in the youtube chat s is this just the modern word of mouth people sort of shilling on

SPEAKER_241: uh on social media i don't know i think it's a little i don't know there's a little bit more to

SPEAKER_481: it than just word of you remember paper post lon sure early days i remember yeah like man the founder

SPEAKER_05: of that that guy was brutal oh i don't know that guy was so bad remember always been with us as

SPEAKER_43: anywhere where there's if if a conversation takes off here there's monetary value associated with it there's always going to be gamesmanship from the from the earliest days as i recall um do you

SPEAKER_486: remember paper post founder coming on this week in startup and getting into it with me live i think i do wow that was a long time he's so ted murphy yes he's so mad i do remember this and do you

SPEAKER_490: remember what i did to him oh my god it was so dark no this is he had done this whole post thing

SPEAKER_21: you have a poor woman um what was his name so his name was ted um so the guy ted was getting a woman

Chamath Palihapitiya: uh eyes it became izia oh my god i'm like having the flashbacks he might see and he was doing all this covert marketing stuff paper posts i was doing weblog sync at the time blogging and i was like you gotta disclose this stuff like it's just it's you know whatever and um the guy um had written on this poor woman's forehead with the sharpie like this degrading thing to do for like a hundred dollars and he was seeing what she would do for money as part of like this promotion thing well that's and he made a video of it it was like totally gross everybody was like oh my god so i said to him i was like yeah but if i told you like i'll pay you to write paper post on your forehead with a sharpie

SPEAKER_52: for a hundred dollars so yeah i totally do it and i was like okay tyler go get me a sharpie from my

SPEAKER_114: wallet i i didn't know what to do on air so i was like okay fine write paper post tyler on his forehead

SPEAKER_500: and the kid did it and i was like this thing is off the rails i gotta end the show here

SPEAKER_05: it was like so it was i think this was bizarre 2008 jason i can't find the original post but i think that's what this was this happened i think it was that long oh my god anyway i mean this is

SPEAKER_505: where like the forever yeah 18 years ago geez it was like 18 years ago we need jazen's tool to be

SPEAKER_508: telling us that's exactly right oh my god yeah where do you look at the archives um it was oh my god

SPEAKER_511: sorry i'm just looking for yeah i think this one got memory hold into history i can't find it i mean

SPEAKER_35: it was like there were a million blog posts about this moment yeah no i i remember it now that you're talking about it but i can't find the act and he like literally wrote on his forehead it was insane

SPEAKER_263: i don't even want to get into it all right listen there's been another episode amazing episode twist

SPEAKER_514: thank you uh yazen alex and ryan and lon uh and we will see you all on wednesday on twist bye bye