SPEAKER_00: This Week in Careers, what unemployment has to do with the Super Bowl, and why nice girls don't get the corner office, or much of anything else, apparently.

SPEAKER_01: Welcome to This Week in Careers. I'm your host, Lisa Johnson-Mandell, author of Career Comeback, Repackage Yourself to Get the Job You Want, and Lead Career Blogger at AOL.

SPEAKER_02: I am so excited about our show today because we have one of my career heroes on, Dr. Lois Frankel, author of Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office.

SPEAKER_00: But before we get to her, I have to give you my tip of the week, and it's a big one, and it's a good one this week. Okay, you ready for this? Put your money on the Packers this week in the Super Bowl. That's right. Lisa, what does this have to do with careers, you might ask? Well, let me tell you. 80% of the time, the team with the lowest unemployment rate wins the Super Bowl. Isn't that bizarre? Who knew? It seems so random. But 16 out of the past 20 years, the team with the lowest unemployment rate has won the Super Bowl. How can you argue with that? This year, Pittsburgh has 8.1 for their unemployment rate, and Green Bay only has 7.7. So, I'm telling you, put your money on the Packers. Now, this is the first time in 20 years, by the way, that both teams have had an unemployment rate of over 7%, which is a little bit depressing. And I'm not exactly sure why this statistic holds out, but this is the explanation that the experts give. Okay, in weighing the measuring of this analysis, correlation doesn't imply causation, of course, said Sanjay Saith, who is CEO of Rise Smart, who RiseSmart.com pointed out this information to me. But you could argue that a fan base with lower unemployment is more likely to attend games, buy team gear, celebrate at sports bars, and ultimately cheer their team on to victory. By contrast, a metro area that is struggling with high unemployment might have subtle but insidious effect on the team's morale. There you have it. Tip of the week. Bet on the Packers. Now, on to question of the week. This one is from Donna in Brentwood, rather upscale neighborhood of Los Angeles. And she writes, Dear Lisa, I've been really fortunate and don't need a job myself, but I'd like to help others who do. Do you have any suggestions? I do indeed, Donna. A lot of companies out there are really committed to helping people. One of them is Dress for Success, which is a nonprofit organization that supplies work attire to people who don't necessarily have the means to purchase it. February 24th through 27th is Send One Suit Weekend. And Dress for Success is collaborating with Dress Barn, which is a retail store that specializes in women's professional clothing. And they're partnering together. You can take your old career clothes out of the closet. You can take your suits, your skirts, your blouses, your accessories, your shoes, anything that's business oriented, business bags too. And you can donate them to any of the 850 Dress for Success stores. I mean, excuse me, Dress Barn stores. Take them down there the weekend of February 24th through 27th. And Dress for Success and Dress Barn will make sure that those clothes get to needy people who they will help. Also, you'll get a discount at Dress Barn. I remember about 10 years ago, a girlfriend and I drove down to the Dress Barn outlet in Cabazon because she was starting a new job and needed a whole new professional wardrobe. And she got some amazing classic outfits for a price that I couldn't believe. So if you haven't checked out Dress Barn, it will surprise you. So I can recommend it. Great place and trying to help those who are in need of career wear. So moving right along to the job of the week. Google wants you. That's right. Google is hiring. They expect to hire at least 1,600 people over in the next little while, in the next six months. And they are especially hot on iPhone app designers, iPhone app creators. They're looking for people that already have these in the works. And if you do, they might even not make you move to their corporate headquarters in Northern California. If you do, they might let you and your employees live where you're living right now and just work remotely, which would be ideal for some people. For other people, they'd love to move to Northern California where Google is because they have this amazing corporate headquarters. And they take really good care of their people. They've got so many perks and benefits that both in a survey of happiest cities to work, number one with San Jose, California, number two with San Francisco because that area, huge high tech, lots of perks, and Google is one of the largest employers there. So anyway, they're hiring 1,600 people in the next couple of, in the next several months. They're hiring as fast as they can find them. If you're qualified, if you're working on, say, the next Angry Birds or the next Foursquare or something like that, contact Google. They're tough to get in. They have really tough requirements. But once you're in there, you are home free and people love it. People love working for them. And it's nice to be working for a company that's hiring and getting bigger and growing stronger every day instead of one that's shrinking a little bit. So Google would be a great place to be.

SPEAKER_02: And now, my friends, time for me to interview the lovely and talented Dr. Lois Frankel, who is, Lois, I can't tell you how much inspiration you've been to me over the years.

SPEAKER_12: I mean, not that many years because we're not that old.

SPEAKER_02: I was going to say, speak for yourself. Yeah. But it's so great to have you here. And I want to talk about some of the other books you've written

SPEAKER_04: because everybody knows you for Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office, of course. Here's Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office. We have this right here. But you have also written Nice Girls Don't Get Rich. There we have Nice Girls Don't Get Rich. And C. Jane Lead.

SPEAKER_02: So briefly tell me about just, tell me about some of the other books that you've written.

SPEAKER_16: Well, in addition to these, do you mean in addition to Corner Office or this? These and, yeah.

SPEAKER_20: Yeah, well, we have a new one coming out April 19th called Nice Girls Just Don't Get It. And it takes all of my coaching tips out of the workplace and suggests that, you know what, there's lots of ways in which women preclude themselves from getting the things they want to live a winning life. So that book will be out. And as a matter of fact, for the first five viewers who go to our website, nicegirlsjustdontgetit.com, we'll send them a Nice Girls Just Don't Get It tote bag. Oh, I love it. Yeah, all they have to do is go to nicegirlsjustdontgetit.com and then contact us through the website, send them a tote bag. Tell me really quick, what is it? You know, that's a good question. You know, when we say Nice Girls Just Don't Get It, it's like a double entendre. Because on the one hand, nice girls don't get that they have to do something different. Like they're not getting it that they're doing something wrong.

SPEAKER_21: And then the it is living the life that you want, that you choose, as opposed to the life that maybe you're living because other people want it for you, other people expect it of you, you've been socialized to be a certain way. So that's what the it is. It's really how do you overcome some of those old messages. I mean, Lisa, you have to remember that, you know, at heart I'm a psychotherapist. So that what I look at is what is the mechanism that keeps women, and men for that matter, when I'm also working with men, from getting the things and the life and the careers

SPEAKER_15: and the promotions and the money that they want? Okay. I want to know that because as wonderful as it is to work here,

SPEAKER_22: I still haven't quite got the career I want. So we need to talk.

SPEAKER_23: Yes, definitely. So you talked a little bit about your background. I want to know, how did you become a career guru, if you will?

SPEAKER_20: You know, it was really pretty interesting because my entire life I wanted to be a psychologist, my entire life. And I was working for Arco, the oil company that used to be downtown Los Angeles, and I went to school at night to get my Ph.D. in counseling psychology, which I did. And when I got it, I left corporate life, and I said, I'm going to have a private practice. And within about a year, I realized I really didn't like it, and I didn't know what to do because here my whole life this was all I wanted to do. And as, you know, fortune sometimes has it, a client that I was doing some training for called and said, Lois, would you be willing to coach someone? Now you have to remember, this was like 23, 24 years ago. So there were no business coaches back then. So I had no idea what she was talking about, but I said to her, I would be happy to coach someone for you. Just tell me a little bit about what you want me to do. She said, Lois, you know, you have a background in business, you have a degree in psychology, you know, you understand what the employment issues are, you've done training, you put it all together, you have a coach.

SPEAKER_21: I thought, this has to be better than being a psychotherapist.

SPEAKER_20: So my first client came in and sat down, and, you know, I just went from there. And all these years later, I realized, you know, isn't that wonderful how all of my experiences, my education came to play? And that's a lot of times what I tell people, is that if you're doing something you don't

SPEAKER_30: enjoy, how can you bring together other forces to create something new?

SPEAKER_21: Stay open. You know, if I wasn't open, if someone had called me and said, would you coach someone? And I said, I don't know what it is. Yeah, I don't think I'm qualified. I would have missed out on, you know, over two decades and a wonderful career. Right. That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02: You know, these days, a lot of quote-unquote career coaches are popping up. You get a lot of people saying, you know, oh, that sounds fun. I'm a career coach. I'm a life coach. Right. I'm a professional coach.

SPEAKER_31: How do we know who's legit and who's just kind of cashing in on a current trend?

SPEAKER_32: Yeah.

SPEAKER_20: You know, and that's a very good question because we find that in our business that there are a lot of people popping up who are in credential. So if you're thinking about getting a coach, and there are different kinds of coaches. So obviously, I'm a business coach, and I work with corporations and their employees. So that if you're looking for a business coach, you want someone who has worked in a corporation, who has managed a big function, who has been successful, who has an advanced degree, and who maybe has a certification from Coach Federation or some other certification. That's what you're looking for. You also want someone who's been doing it for a while. So that's what you're really looking for in a business coach. You know, in a life coach, it may be someone who has a degree in, it could be an MSW or it could be an MFCC, somebody who has some experience in coaching people in their life issues as opposed to business issues. But, you know, whatever kind of coach you're looking for, you want to check them out because there's, you know, I've seen a lot of hairdressers decide that they could be great life coaches because they know how to listen to people. It takes more than that to be a coach. You really have to understand issues. You have to understand people. You have to have the courage to say things to people they may not want to hear. You want to help people to stretch. So, you know, I always warn people, just be a good consumer. That's all, when it comes to selecting a coach or anybody, any other professional in your life for that matter.

SPEAKER_34: Well, and that's important information also for the people who are thinking about making a career switch.

SPEAKER_22: Like you said, I've seen people from all walks of life say, you know, I think I want to be a coach. I think I want to be a career coach or a life coach because I do, you know, I have a way with people. Yes. And so they go to these weekend classes and then they come back and they think, oh, I'm going to, you know, I'll set up a website and people will just come flocking to me and all that. And you have to realize, even though it sounds like a really fun thing to do, you have to be qualified.

SPEAKER_20: You do have to be qualified. And that's why, you know, if somebody doesn't have an advanced degree or doesn't have the background in the area that you need help with, you know, at least they should have gone for certification. You know, at least they should go the extra step to become qualified to be a coach. And if they don't have any of that, I say stay clear of them. Now, there's probably plenty of people out there that are well-intentioned and they're pretty good and they don't have any of that. But, you know, it's an expensive proposition. It's an investment in your future. It can cost, you know, anywhere from $100 to $500 an hour. And so you just want to be careful.

SPEAKER_36: And, yeah, you know, when you say they say they're good with people, well, you know, like, narcissists are good with people, too. And you don't want that person to be your coach.

SPEAKER_34: Definitely not. That's true. Okay, before we go any further, I don't want to alienate the men who might be watching.

SPEAKER_22: So let's find out what the whole theory behind Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office and the other books that you write, what this has for men. Because I know there's a lot of information that I wish my husband had.

SPEAKER_20: Well, I think the main place it is for men, I guess there's a couple places. Number one would be if you manage women, if you supervise women, or if you just work with women, that opportunity to understand why they do what they do. Because when we talk about Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office, Don't Get Rich, Just Don't Get It, we're not saying that you shouldn't be nice. I mean, that's not the message at all. The message is, nice is necessary for success in any endeavor, but it's not sufficient.

SPEAKER_30: So that if you work with women, or, you know, your wife might be having career problems, I think this book could really help you to help others. That's number one. Number two, if you're raising daughters. You know, it's amazing to me, at the end of my keynote presentations, how many men come up and buy the books for their daughters.

SPEAKER_20: Because they say, you know, I don't want my daughters to have the same difficulties that my wife had. And then the third thing is, and it's interesting, because we know that women buy more books than men. Yes, that's why I wrote mine towards women. Right, towards women. And yet, when my brother read my books, he said, you know, this stuff really applies to both men and women. And I said, well, of course it does. But women buy more books. So I kind of have that spin on it. So I think in those three ways, men could get a lot out of the books as well. You know, it was interesting, because I was contacted by the, it was an Asian American organization within a corporation. And they said, we want you to speak to our Asian American affinity group, both the men and the women. Because the Asian American men do the same things that women in this country have been socialized to do.

SPEAKER_46: And we want to help them to get over it. So sometimes there's, yeah, cultural issues, too.

SPEAKER_47: Yeah. So, I mean, really, it could just as well be called nice guys don't get the corner office.

SPEAKER_20: Well, you know, the very specific mistakes I have in there are mistakes that women make. But the coaching tips that go along with it, and for the people who haven't read it, it's like, you know, I come up with a mistake.

SPEAKER_45: And then I provide coaching tips for how you can overcome it. I think the coaching tips are good for anyone.

SPEAKER_23: Okay, great.

SPEAKER_22: Now, something else that I want to define is the word nice. Because you don't mean nice girls don't get the corner office, bitches do. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_26: I'm not saying that at all.

SPEAKER_20: I'm saying that there is a spectrum or a continuum from nice to bitch. Okay. On one end of the continuum, you know, I talk about Sally Field, right? I mean, she is the quintessential nice girl. I mean, even if you watch Brothers and Sisters now, she's the quintessential nice mom, right? Yeah, yeah. And we talk about that, and nice girls just don't get it. That is, and how she contributes to that. But she's on the nice, really on the nice end of the continuum. On the other end of the continuum, you have someone like maybe the late Leona Helmsley, who, you know, people knew as the Queen of Mean, right? Or Omarosa from... Or Omarosa from... Yeah, from The Apprentice. Exactly.

SPEAKER_46: You know, you have her on the other end of the continuum. Now, you don't want to be on either end of the continuum because you're not going to get your goals met.

SPEAKER_30: But there's a place in the middle where you combine nice with direct, straightforward behaviors that are really effective. Because the thing is, if you're not direct and straightforward, or let me change that. If you're only direct and straightforward, you're considered a bitch. If you are not direct and straightforward at all, you're considered a nice girl.

SPEAKER_20: So it's really that unique combination of, you know, putting these behaviors together. Lisa, we live in a society where you don't like men who act like women. We don't like women who act like men. So that's why women can't get away with doing the exact same things that men do because our society won't tolerate it.

SPEAKER_21: You need to be an adult woman. And that's really what I aim for.

SPEAKER_52: Well, and, you know, I get so many commenters on AOL who say, you know, gender shouldn't make any difference.

SPEAKER_22: We should all act the same way. But it really does. Who are they trying to kid? Just because it shouldn't make a difference doesn't mean it doesn't.

SPEAKER_45: Yeah. You know, I was talking to somebody, you know, a mutual friend of ours, Liz Weston, about this the other day.

SPEAKER_20: And I was saying, you know, I'm kind of tired of hearing this, but haven't you come so far and it shouldn't make a difference. Women have come so far and it shouldn't make a difference. And I said, look, you know, let's just look at the numbers. Let's look at the number of CEOs. Let's look at the number of world presidents who are women. Let's look at the number of women who are in senior positions in financial institutions because that's where the power is. The numbers simply aren't there, you know. And we did a survey on my blog. Thethinpinkline.com is a blog that I do with Carol Frolinger, Valerie Coleman-Morris, who talks about money, and Lindsay Pollack.

SPEAKER_57: And the four of us blog every day. And that's a great website, by the way, thethinpinkline.com. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_30: Well, we did a survey just to find out, like, what's happening around the world.

SPEAKER_20: And we were very surprised that the differences, and we divided the responses up by age group, you know, like 25 to 35, 36 to 40-something, and then above that. And what we found was that there was no significant difference between the age groups in terms of their experiences in the workplace, that the young women were still experiencing discrimination. And, in fact, they had horror stories that they shared in terms of how they are treated in the workplace. And these women came from around the world, South Africa, the Netherlands, Australia, Indonesia, the Philippines. And so it's global.

SPEAKER_57: That's so interesting. It's a little bit depressing.

SPEAKER_20: You know, it's a little bit depressing, but it's why I write my books. Because, as I say to people, because sometimes people say, why did you write the books?

SPEAKER_30: Because I want people who may never hire a coach to get the same advice that I would give to people who did hire me to coach them. So you can coach yourself to success. You are the only person, and you know this from your own books, you know, you are the only person who can take charge of your life, take charge of your career. No one will ever take better care of you than you will take care of yourself. And if you do that, you can have the life you want.

SPEAKER_22: Boy, that's such good advice. Let's talk a little bit. We've talked about some female leaders who are kind of on the bad end of the spectrum. Let's talk to some, or let's talk about, can you give me some examples of female leaders who really get it, who we should sort of emulate and who do it right?

SPEAKER_20: You know, we live in Los Angeles, so in entertainment, the one who always comes to mind is Sherry Lansing. You know, she was at the helm of Paramount Studios forever. I just got an email the other day that said now she's going to be focusing her energy on philanthropic activities. So there's an example of one. I happen to, I admire, and it's not a political thing, but I admire Meg Whitman, the former CEO of eBay.

SPEAKER_30: And we know she ran for governor here, but politics aside, she ran a great company. She grew a great company. She knew how to do that.

SPEAKER_20: You know, I admired her. I admire Anne Mulcahy, who is now the, I think she's chairperson of the board of IBM. I admire her. You have Andrea Young at Avon. You know, these are all women that I admire. But the woman I admire the most is unfortunately no longer with us, was Mary Kay Ash from Mary Kay Cosmetics. Really? She's the woman that I admire the most. I've really studied her, and I've talked to people in her organization to learn more about her. And the more I learn about her, the more in awe of her I am. This is a woman who started a business on a shoestring where she said, I have a vision. And that vision is to start a company where women can be financially independent, where God can come first, family can come second, and work can come third.

SPEAKER_30: Now, how many people who start a business say, I want my employees to have work come third? Not very many. Not very many.

SPEAKER_20: That's the truth. But she did it, and she became rich, you know, off of that philosophy. And that's one of the things I think women need to, well, it's one of the things women need to get, that you can do good and do well at the same time.

SPEAKER_47: That, you know, rich is not a dirty word. Excellent.

SPEAKER_18: That's really important because it's another thing that AOL readers have a hard time with.

SPEAKER_69: You know, it's bad CEOs.

SPEAKER_71: All CEOs are bad because they are haves, and all have-nots are good. But, yeah, but you can aspire to that.

SPEAKER_20: Not all of us are going to be CEOs. Not all of us, you know, are going to earn, you know, $150 million a year. I think I just read that, just this morning I read that the CEO of American Express, like his salary went up to $150 million this year. I mean, that's obscene.

SPEAKER_30: But you can live the life that you want free concerns about money if you start focusing on making money a priority. And that doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to exclude your other priorities or your values.

SPEAKER_22: That's so true. And you know what? It's not just about the money either. I mean, job satisfaction is so important as well. And if you can figure out how to work, how to arrange things at work so that you enjoy it instead of dread it, so you enjoy working with other people and you're not always worried about them plotting against you, trying to get your job, making you look bad, not always worried about trying to look better at other people's expense. Right.

SPEAKER_20: It's just, your day, your life is just so much better. Oh, yes. What you're talking about now, Lisa, is this issue of relationships. You know, one of the things that I often say is that when you need a relationship, it's too late to build it. So that you need to be building 360-degree relationships all the time. The fact is, is when we are in a relationship with someone, we tend to trust them more. We give them the benefit of the doubt. You know, we may send business their way. We're not going to try to make them look bad.

SPEAKER_46: So that's like the critical importance of building relationships. Now, the interesting thing is that women are actually great at building relationships. They're not good at leveraging them.

SPEAKER_72: Ah, tell me about leveraging relationships.

SPEAKER_46: Yeah, we talk about that, and nice girls just don't get it.

SPEAKER_20: The fact that, you know, although we're good at building relationships, we don't want to capitalize on them. We tend to not want to go to someone that we've done some favors for and collect a favor. Even if it's not direct and saying, you know, Lisa, I did you a favor, would you do me a favor? I mean, that's never the way that you do it, but, you know, we do each other favors a couple of times. And you know what? We're in this relationship now where I have some capital that I can draw on and that I can catch in. Now, the example I give that I like to use is a woman who is an author, and I don't want to use her name, but she came to me a couple of years ago, and she said she was having difficulty getting a book published.

SPEAKER_30: Well, her father was a very famous psychologist, and I said, have you gone, who had written many books, and I said, have you gone to your father's publishers?

SPEAKER_21: And she said, well, no, you know, I don't want to capitalize on his good name. And I said, you know, what are you, foolish? Yeah, why not? Stop being a girl, you know. What you want to do is you want to get your foot in the door through him, but then it's going to be up to you whether you deliver something that's a quality product.

SPEAKER_30: But that's an example of where a woman will tend not to draw on relationships, where men will. You know, it was interesting because we talked about The Apprentice a few minutes ago,

SPEAKER_21: and I remember there was one show where they had to sell, I don't know, hot dogs on the street. It was something, you know, the women are trying to, there are two teams, men and women. The women are trying to sell as many hot dogs as they can, and they're kind of using their sexuality to try to do it as well. The guys are picking up the phone and calling their buddies and saying, can you come down here and buy $1,000 worth of hot dogs? That's a great example, you know, and that's what we need to be doing more of. The women are working as hard as they can. The men are working smart.

SPEAKER_22: Speaking of sexuality, okay, a problem that I found in the workplace is when you become too engaging, I don't know, you try to build these relationships, and so often men take it the wrong way. And they think you're coming on to them, or they think you're easy. I hate to use that word. But so often your efforts are being misinterpreted. They're being interpreted as a come-on sort of way rather than a camaraderie building sort of way. Right.

SPEAKER_20: How do you suggest that women deal with that? Well, I think women need to be very careful. You know, the fact is that men may misinterpret whatever you do, but it's your responsibility. You know, and I say this to women all the time, and it's one of the reasons why, you know, when guys think we're having this, you know, keynote where we're talking about, you know, women's issues, that we're talking about them.

SPEAKER_30: And I always say, hey, look, don't worry about it. We do so many things wrong. We do, you know, we need to get our own act together before we're going to point a finger at you. So, you know, no matter what you do, they may take it wrong. But I think too often women aren't conscious of their own behaviors. They're not conscious of how they dress. They're not conscious about how they approach a guy. If you truly want to build a relationship that's built on equality and mutual respect, you know, you shouldn't be touching him while you're talking to him because women tend to do that naturally. We do. Well, be conscious of that. You shouldn't be pushing your hair back as you're talking to him because that's looked upon as like a flirtatious kind of thing. If you're sitting in his office talking, you shouldn't be sitting on your foot because, again, that's a more casual thing. That can be misinterpreted.

SPEAKER_84: Even crossing your legs? Is that okay?

SPEAKER_30: Well, crossing your legs is okay, but for me what women do is they sit on their foot. They'll go in an office.

SPEAKER_85: Yeah, like with your knee underneath you. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_46: You know, men don't do that. You don't come to think of it. Men don't do that.

SPEAKER_30: Yeah, and women do it, and it creates a different kind of environment so that, you know, if you don't want to be misinterpreted or you want to increase the likelihood of not being misinterpreted, because it can always happen, then be very conscious about your behaviors and interact with guys, you know, in a very neutral kind of way where you show respect for them and expect respect in return.

SPEAKER_23: Excellent. Excellent.

SPEAKER_22: So let's talk about that a little bit. I would say that's probably one of the mistakes that we make that we don't realize we're making most often. What are some of the other things that we as women do in the workplace that really give the wrong impression or that don't take us where we want to go?

SPEAKER_16: Yeah, you know, I would say the number one thing is probably using too many words.

SPEAKER_90: Which I just did in that question.

SPEAKER_91: No, actually you did. Actually you did.

SPEAKER_20: Yeah, you know, women use too many words, and the more words you use, you always soften a message. The fewer words you use, you always strengthen a message. So that as women use too many words to provide an answer, they are weakening their messages.

SPEAKER_30: The more words you use, people tune out.

SPEAKER_20: Just yesterday someone said to me, you know, I was in a meeting, and somebody said something that I think was really interesting, but I couldn't get the kernel of it. Wow. And there's a good example of using too many words.

SPEAKER_30: Now there's a reason why women do that, you know, and one is because they do want to soften their messages. Subconsciously they do want to soften the messages. The second thing is women think they have to tell people everything that's in their heads. You know, it's like it's only fair. If I know it, I should share it with you. And people don't need to know everything that's in your head, you know.

SPEAKER_20: And then the third reason is a lot of time when they're talking to men, men don't give them, like, you know, you're nodding your head at me and smiling. Men don't give them that kind of feedback, and so they keep talking thinking they're going to get it. And what the guy's really doing is he's tuning out. You know, it was interesting, just a few minutes ago you asked me a question, and I'm sorry, I don't remember the exact question,

SPEAKER_30: but I remember in my head thinking, divide this into three things, Lois, you know, and just give three key points and then stop.

SPEAKER_20: And that was exactly what I did. And rather than ramble, that worked. So that's the number one thing. You know, a couple of other things I talk about in Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office.

SPEAKER_30: Some of them are fun, like putting candy on your desk or bringing cookies to work or always being the one who organizes the potlucks. You know, guys don't do those things. Now, any one of these things isn't a career buster, but when you start putting these small things together, they start having a really big impact.

SPEAKER_39: Like in the book, I say, unless your name is Betty Crocker, don't have any food around you.

SPEAKER_60: Yeah, yeah. Well, you don't want people coming over to you for that anyway. Yeah, that's right. That's not what you want to be known for. I don't want to be sitting there eating it. Yeah, well, that's it.

SPEAKER_91: But some people, some women tell me, and this is okay, some women, you know, who struggle with being seen,

SPEAKER_20: and maybe on the Leona Helmsley side, say that they put candy on their desk to soften coming to talk to them.

SPEAKER_30: And so it can be a strategy. It could be a good strategy. So I'm not saying you should never do it. You know, a third thing might be that women do is ask permission.

SPEAKER_20: Whereas men will ask forgiveness, women will ask permission. So we're seen as or perceived as not having the courage of our conviction to just go ahead and do something.

SPEAKER_30: Or we're seen as and perceived as needing more supervision than necessary. So those are a couple of things I talk about in the book.

SPEAKER_23: Excellent. Lois, this is so fascinating. I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours. I could talk to you for hours, too.

SPEAKER_95: I wish we had the last time.

SPEAKER_96: Yeah.

SPEAKER_97: On occasion. Oh, boy. We use a lot of words when we get together. Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_34: But that's okay. Unfortunately, our time is out. Tell readers one more time, I mean viewers one more time, how they can reach you and where they can get the nice free tote bags.

SPEAKER_45: Yeah, first five viewers to contact us at our website, NiceGirlsJustDon'tGetIt.com.

SPEAKER_20: That's how you can get the free NiceGirlsJustDon'tGetIt tote bag.

SPEAKER_102: And you can contact me through my personal website, DrLoisFrankel.com. Thank you so much, Lois.

SPEAKER_104: This has just been.

SPEAKER_02: Thank you. You've been amazing. Thank you so much. That's it for this week in careers. Come back next week for more exciting information. I'm your host, Lisa Johnson Mandel, trying to save America one job at a time.

SPEAKER_14: Bye-bye.