SPEAKER_00: the internet is filled you'd be find the shocking alex and i'm sure the audience will as well

SPEAKER_01: with biased people it's there are people on the internet who are not straight shooters they're not calling balls and strikes they're on a team and they have really yes and when they state facts about a person they may use colorful language or you know compare them to hitler idi amin stalin

SPEAKER_03: etc um and they're doing it in bad faith this week in startups is brought to you by lemon.io

SPEAKER_04: hire pre-vetted remote developers and get 15 off your first four weeks of developer time at lemon.io twist retool bridge the gap between ai demos and business impact with technology that's designed for developers and built for the enterprise visit retool.com twist and try it out today and vouched turn your ai infrastructure into production grade software with know your agent from vouched check it out yourself at vouched.id twist trust for agents that are built for builders

SPEAKER_00: like you all right everybody welcome back to this week in startups i'm your host jason calacanis with me again my co-host alex wilhelm we've got a full docket for you on a friday july 11th crypto at an all-time high grok for blowing people's minds um what else we got here just tons and tons of of um interesting stuff plus a great guest got a great guest here second time founder i've invested in doing something very interesting in the self-driving space so that's a real special treat for you live in studio here in austin um how are you doing alex i'm doing fantastically well uh it's friday feeling

SPEAKER_11: good i think i think the interview today is gonna be a lot of fun uh prepping for it i'd never heard this particular niche so everyone should make sure to stick around because that's uh it's definitely

SPEAKER_12: a little forward looking you might say jason but i love people that are just ahead of the ball

SPEAKER_11: yeah um but i really do think that the the biggest story of the last couple days has been the debut of grok 4 from xai which according to metrics jason is fantastic according to the standards that we look at it's blowing people's minds uh a comment that i love that sets the tone for the latest kind of state-of-the-art model is from tim sweeney of course from epic games and he says grok

SPEAKER_12: 4 feels like artificial general intelligence to me and i think in terms of endorsements that's about

SPEAKER_20: as good a one as you can get yeah it's interesting um there are objective tests we can look at as well

SPEAKER_22: um everybody knows these models do a series of tests uh math like sats uh the l stats whatever that is for legal you can put these through all kinds of tests which of course the people who make

SPEAKER_00: models uh are now a bit obsessed with their rankings on these tests so you know they i'm not sure exactly how important these tests will become once they've all been mastered you're moving into a space where all human knowledge has been mastered according to these kind of tests the idea that ai would get something wrong on the sats to use a common test people know just seems far school at this point like why would it get it wrong now that's yeah think about how far we've come the idea that ai is going to win every chess match we kind of got okay with that about 10 years ago it's going to beat you at go five years ago it's going to be a better driver than you

SPEAKER_01: probably we're like soaking in that moment right now it probably is better than you net net with drinking and distracted driving and certainly on these tests so let's just go over some of these

SPEAKER_25: tests i know there's like um the artificial analysis index or whatever that is of a seven or

SPEAKER_26: or eight different tests maybe you could show this versus the competition i think it's an

SPEAKER_11: interesting chart the chart that i thought was the most interesting is this one so it's from the group artificial analysis they run kind of a meta test jason so if you're familiar with gpqa diamond or the very well-known humanities last exam this takes all of that into one bucket and what we have on the screen here is a time series chart showing how models from different providers are doing over time now there's a little bit of uh screwiness because the uh the data points for open ai and xii are both black but this over here the upper right uh little um image here that is grok 4. it is now according to them the state-of-the-art model and as you can tell open ai has led most of the way and then grok just pips it right now so we do have kind of a new leading ai model company and if you're a fan of meta or mistral or what anthropics working on you can see them in this chart of course jason a couple points may not be the world to someone who's just using it to ask questions about cats but if you care about applying this to your startup to your business problem whatever you want to have the best and

SPEAKER_30: currently look at that man well done xai yeah it's uh what's particularly impressive here is if you

SPEAKER_22: look at when people started taking these tests with their large language models in november uh december of 2022 you have open ai starting that test and then march 2023 and you know they're making incremental then you see the blue line show up which is meta the orange line show up mistral the green line show up in 2023 google and then if you go forward right to the middle of the chart march 2024 is when grok i'm assuming two uh dropped and was done for these tests so in from march 2024 till now which is five quarters or so 15 16 months uh grok has caught up to all of the folks who were ahead of them and who

SPEAKER_00: started a year or two ahead of them that's really what's impressive is how quickly they've caught up when you actually look at the distance between them okay not not a big difference right it's it's they're they're both in the 70 72 range it looks like so um not a particularly difficult um

SPEAKER_26: um you know it's really impressive it is difficult how and challenging to catch up that quickly i believe where it goes from here who knows that that remains the question i find this super encouraging

SPEAKER_35: now if you're a big open ai stan if you're a big believer in google's gemini models he might be a

SPEAKER_11: little bit annoyed that your favorite company is currently lagging behind one other one but how great is it jason just for the state of technology that we're still finding ways to improve these models that these ai scaling walls that we've heard so much about currently are still being knocked down we're not at a point at which we're out of ideas we can use more compute we can use more data more reinforcement learning more humans in the loop more time series compute etc etc and things are getting better and perhaps even more importantly we're seeing the price of these models collapse over time so here's another chart from the same source this just ranks uh models by their intelligence bucket so jason mentioned the intelligence score well you can see here jason that as time goes on even the more intelligent models are seeing rapid price declines so if grok 4 feels a little expensive to you right now or if open ai is oh three or you know gemini 2.5 wait six months and they'll be half off so it's incredible i think the pace of progress here and also just the fact that they're

SPEAKER_42: getting more and more affordable i love this chart yeah so if you look at the i guess the deep

SPEAKER_22: purple line is an intelligence index of greater than 50. and i guess it was achieved in the first time that was achieved it was in september of 2024 and at that time it looks like it was two dollars per uh one million tokens that price has come down to it looks like six cents per one million tokens so that's a pretty dramatic drop from two bucks to six cents we extrapolate this chart it's going to drop even further and this will continue to drop as the hardware gets more powerful the software gets more

SPEAKER_00: efficient and the models get better so um and this is probably why um you're starting to see deep research i notice like people with free accounts are doing a certain number of deep research ones i i think they're slowly starting to give those deep research projects where multiple threads are done and it's doing like 20 30 40 different searches compiling the data and it takes five minutes those things i keep seeing people do them for free so i'm paying for those on like three or four different services i'm paying for premium on and i don't know if i need you um this will all probably become free for most use cases i'm interested to see if this is all going to be this idea

SPEAKER_25: that you're paying for ai like we used to pay for usage of online dial-up services when they started they were six or seven bucks an hour went down to five three and then eventually all you could eat i think we're gonna kind of get to all you can eat subscriptions we kind of have those at some levels

SPEAKER_22: already including this 200 300 level there's a 300 level version of grok a 200 level of perplexity um i think google has an offering in that range as well i wonder if those things are long for this world and if we just have a 20 version all you can eat eventually is where this winds up okay so

SPEAKER_11: that's what i was thinking too like that was absolutely my perspective that things will get cheaper and we'll have a nice consumer from the price point and you'll get either tons of it for free or tons of it for a very low price yeah however xai introduced a new plan that costs 300

SPEAKER_12: a month and uh gives greater access to grok 3 grok 4 and grok 4 heavy now 300 a month is actually a new high watermark because i believe you can pay google 250 you can pay open ai 200 you can pay perplexity one or 200 bucks cursor 200 bucks and now 300 so we're seeing that people are charging

SPEAKER_11: more for models at the absolute bleeding edge but i think that for pretty much any consumer the 20 15 25 buck a month option is going to be okay but it is interesting to see that the price trend we see in general is not manifesting at the edge and i think you know xai is trying to push the price point further up and you know godspeed to them if it works out because this stuff's expensive to build

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SPEAKER_00: smarter visit lemon.io twist that concept of multiple agents doing the same search and trying to debate each other to get to the right answer we're going to keep seeing that we talked about in a previous episode here somebody had done it with uh programming and checking code i you know you can almost think of it like pair programming where two people write code at the same time in this case two ai's write code at the same time a third a fourth ai look at the results pick the best one debate it between them was that could this have been done better is there a better way to do it and so all of human knowledge feels like it is somewhere on the internet or all human knowledge that's worth writing down at least is on the internet so if it's not worth writing down one might argue it's not that important so it will stand to reason that the next phase of this is novel creation and that i think is going to be really interesting can these um products become so good that they find novel solutions or novel ideas maybe problem solve or even find questions that are hard to answer and

SPEAKER_58: then go and try and figure it out themselves and go down some rabbit hole that we haven't seen i don't think there's a mathematical problem that's so sticky that humans can't understand it that ai has solved yet so you can look for it in math and physics will these make a discovery in math and physics that would have won some notable prize for math or physics right we haven't seen that but it does feel like we're about to see that that's the next phase of this is novel solutions novel identification of problems even the identification of a problem of a unique problem like finding a unique problem in the world that's unsolved that's even hard to do now because there's so many humans billions of humans sharing collectively their knowledge on the internet so basically we're setting up a polymarket here

SPEAKER_60: jason kind of in real time so let's pick a date here for the over under when do you think is a

SPEAKER_62: reasonable estimate for when we reach that milestone from your end gosh it's a interesting one we should

SPEAKER_22: probably sharpen this and i'm not an expert on physics or math i don't spend my time looking at what physics and math problems have yet to be solved but if i were to use comet right now my browser from perplexity i've been playing with and i just said um what math problems haven't been solved um by humans or ai and you can ask producer claude as well because i think my perplexity is hooked up to claude so maybe this is the same answer um and we can kind of just pull up what hasn't been solved then if we can take some of those you could say of this list of 10 problems when will ai solve one of them

SPEAKER_62: before a human does i think we should probably uh well producer claude's asking that question right

SPEAKER_12: now for us we'll have that in a second but i i wonder if we should set the bar that high because if we're looking at like the top 10 problems we're probably picking the hardest ones so i wonder if

SPEAKER_11: that's the right threshold but i think it is because we want it to be the point at which they actually blow our minds not not do the bare minimum here um i just wonder how many unsolved um math problems

SPEAKER_26: have been identified oh like that actually is an interesting one just in and of itself so

SPEAKER_22: you know hilbert's problems 1923 problems were posted of which 15 remain unsolved or only partially solved landau's problems 1912 four problems all remain unsolved millennium prize problems 2007 problems six remain unsolved of 2025. so there are in academia in math circles physics circles

SPEAKER_00: there people have been doing this for hundreds of years trying to find math problems that are just too difficult to solve and then this is going to be the next phase almost all of the work done and those tests and those benchmarks we look at are for problems that have been solved and then you're just trying to see can the ai solve this problem what's its thought process how did it learn to do it well it went to brilliant.org or it went to khan academy it found a video on youtube it understands how to do solve this problem and now anytime you give it that problem it gets it right and it it's just such a known

SPEAKER_22: problem that it's in its um its corpus of knowledge that it can solve so yeah producer claude uh puts out

SPEAKER_11: the p versus np problem which i'm actually familiar with uh the reeman hypothesis discussing the distro of prime numbers i'm also familiar with that one and then oh i didn't know this one the twin prime conjecture that there's infinitely many pairs of primates that differ by two that intellectually feels right to me but it's another unsolved problem so really there's a lot that's still

SPEAKER_79: out there in the mouth of these companies uh i mean theoretically to solve infinity you need

SPEAKER_00: an infinite amount of time which is impossible so like some of these problems may just in their

SPEAKER_12: definition not be solvable i i do literally have a mathematician on speed dial but i'm not going to call up during the show but i'll ask i'll ask curathy afterwards what he thinks about

SPEAKER_11: these uh and when an area will pull it off but it's a good point jason we're now to the point when we have digested what we know and can spit it back out and now the question is when will these be actually better and stronger than us and can therefore lead us into the future uh before we scoot on there's a little bit more here we should talk about okay a couple things the um attorney general of missouri has sent letters to google open ai meta and microsoft uh pertaining to their ai models now we talked on the show quite a bit about the push to ban state level ai regulation here in the us that ended up not becoming law so that's not currently really in place and so we're seeing people begin to politic and kind of regulate by threat here a little bit and the missouri ag thinks that ais from those companies are biased against the president and at the same time um some democrats in congress are annoyed with x ai over when grok 3 went a little bit nutty the other day and they want grok to remove some posts so clearly we're running up against what i would call first amendment issues as it relates to ai models and as they become more powerful more prevalent more commonly used more kind of just in and around the market there's gonna be more of this i just hope that we end up allowing companies to have their own speech and not having draconian top-down uh regulation by threat because it just seems like a backward step for the nation compared to other countries

SPEAKER_22: okay so let's still amend this uh there's output from large language models that people sign an agreement that these are essentially um not to be trusted there's a million disclaimers when you agree to use these these are in beta format you've agreed explicitly in all these terms of services in 20 different ways not to trust this information but amer but people using it do trust it i mean we're sitting here using producer claude all the time to check on facts asking it to cite sources and you we we haven't found situations where it's let us down i'm sure there will be one um and we've talked about

SPEAKER_90: it ad nauseam with hallucinations etc so this attorney general in missouri wants to know uh about

SPEAKER_22: president trump specifically is that correct this is about trump yes uh he asked the ai models uh i think

SPEAKER_11: the question was list the most anti-semitic presidents or something along those lines and he

SPEAKER_62: is disputing the probabilistic output from these companies okay so i think this is where wikipedia

SPEAKER_22: also got in trouble which is the bios of living persons i've talked about before when you are trying

SPEAKER_00: to solve a math problem and it gets the wrong answer it doesn't know how to solve the problem you look at it and go okay i'm using ai to try to do a hard math problem this language model versus the other one got it right got it wrong i my prompt was changed it's all experimental right nobody should be using this to make life and death uh kind of decisions that being said when the ai which is super impressive and is passing all these tests starts to talk about living people and tell you what it thinks of them based on the information it trained on from where from humans on the internet well

SPEAKER_96: garbage in garbage out ai is here it's changing everything including the way we do business but alex i know a lot of listeners still aren't getting as much out of the ai revolution as they should be you shouldn't just be asking a chat bot a question you would normally ask on google no your ai app should be connected to all your other systems making your workflow smarter and more efficient and that is why retool was created retool makes it simple and straightforward to build your own custom ai powered apps integrated directly into your workspace and the tools you're already using every day for example imagine joining a zoom after having a dedicated ai assistant prep all your meeting notes and then sticking around to give you important real-time context and feedback as your colleagues are talking or a skilled ai cpa keeping an eye on your books prepping your taxes and instantly spotting fraud design your own ai agents that help you get real work done today no more writing endless integration code no more choosing between performance or customization trust a platform that's already being used by over 10 000 companies check out retool today and get your ai doing more than just talking just go to retool.com twist to learn more that's retool.com twist the internet is filled you'd

SPEAKER_68: find this shocking alex and i'm sure the audience will as well with biased people it's there are people

SPEAKER_01: on the internet who are not straight shooters they're not calling balls and strikes they're on a team and they have really yes and when they state facts about a person they may use colorful language or

SPEAKER_03: you know compare them to hitler id amin stalin etc um and they're doing it in bad faith so these models

SPEAKER_01: if they're trained on social media reddit blog posts sub stacks youtube videos podcasts whatever it is transcripts of those things obviously asking it oh do you think trump is hitler or not or which president is most similar to hitler well it's it's been trained on whatever number of years of people referring to

SPEAKER_00: the authoritarian tendencies of donald trump whether they're right or wrong and in most cases they're going to be biased he's not hitler he is hitler you know there's no comparison it's the perfect comparison so what do they expect here i think the all of these services are going to say well did you click the link that says this is an experimental service the other possibility here is what you see when you do an open ai search which is often google will give you hey i don't comment on political stuff at this time right it just doesn't even try to answer a question like that so right yeah um i don't know what people expect from it maybe there has to be like a big disclaimer that comes up and says this is experimental software you're asking a politically charged question how would you like the ai to answer it because you can give this prompt to get the answer you want or that prompt just like you can watch msnbc or fox to get your version of reality and if you want to really go far you could

SPEAKER_25: you know go all the way to the right to alex jones or something or all the way to the left with

SPEAKER_11: somebody else so yeah this is um is this performative i don't know i so i think it's definitely performative but i think there's also a bit of risk to it because the fourth point from this missouri ag says that he wants them to quote provide all documents and communications regarding the rationale training data waiting or algorithmic design that resulted in your chatbot ranking president trump unfavorably in response to questions concerning anti-semitism that is all the secret sauce that is all their that's how they built these things and they don't want to share that and so this ag is i believe fishing with an eye on some position in the white house but this is a pretty strong statement of what some states might do and this could create a lot of just legal drag on american ai companies it could scare them into making more neutered models it can make them uh be sycophantic to current political leadership for example it's just not good and i think it really just goes against the the spirit of the first amendment which is you can say pretty much what you want and i think that if we hold ai models responsible for speech in this way we're just not going to have very powerful ai models and that that to me would be such a shame at this moment of the potential for such progress as we discussed earlier we want to solve physics we want to solve math we want new chemicals new treatments new services new startups we don't want whatever the hell this is

SPEAKER_22: it's just disappointing i'm just looking at open ai right now and i asked that what evidence is there for how trump feels about jewish people in the jewish state i mean talk about you know opening a can of

SPEAKER_20: worms and um it says supportive actions towards israel and jewish communities uh and it golen heights proclamation recognized israel's sovereignty over the golen heights abraham accords executive orders on anti-semitism so these are actually um and then it mentions the shylock remark use the term shylock

SPEAKER_00: considered an anti-semitic slur it's kind of straight down the middle when i asked it that way

SPEAKER_22: right so you can based on the prompt get it to say different things right like if you ask it just to give you evidence of trump's anti-semitic behavior would only give you that but if you ask it just for evidence of how trump feels about jewish people in the jewish state it seems like it's just going to sources like wikipedia jewish news uh cbs the forward pbs and just telling you what they said so in other words it's what a researcher would have done for 20 bucks an hour on you know fiverr or something if you said give me a summary of with citations from notable sources of how trump feels

SPEAKER_101: about jewish people in the jewish state so i don't know just to make this non-partisan though i want

SPEAKER_11: to point out that the democrats getting mad at xai and trying to command what it should do with its grok twitter account is also too far over the line what we want is people to step back let the ai companies cook as the kids say and build new technologies with the hair on them and the caveats that says you know don't trust this clods and beta etc but we don't need to turn this into china in which if you say the wrong thing about the wrong person your company gets shut down or you run to major legal risks if we want to win we need to let these people play and you know what jason screw it one more chart from the same source earlier about grok 4 this shows progress of the two leading countries in ai the united states and china and as you'll note xai's grok 4 gave us a little bit more

SPEAKER_55: of an edge over the current leading state-of-the-art models from china so this is to me a bit of a national

SPEAKER_25: security point wrapped in a first amendment ribbon and i wonder if this is the type of technology where there might not be some crazy breakthrough where one person wins and everybody else loses it

SPEAKER_00: just might be people hit certain benchmarks and they solve a series of problems for humanity but there's not some breakthrough where one side china or the united states figures something out that is so

SPEAKER_25: colossal and important that the other side doesn't quickly figure it out as well if we look at self driving as an example there's plenty of self-driving cars in china it's undoubtable that both countries and countries in between that have similar services will have a solution for self-driving it's it's an

SPEAKER_00: achievable goal therefore there's no winning here it's just i don't know which person wins which month or quarter before the other person wins you know and it's not winning because the other person still wins and if you were to look at something like the com you know internal combustion engine well japan china

SPEAKER_25: the united states germany everybody produces an ice engine so is there a winner in that space

SPEAKER_00: no who can produce a computer like there's computers laptops phones produced all over the world chips same thing so i don't know that there's like a winner take all moment here based on the history so far

SPEAKER_58: based on the history there is no person is going to win it it's not like the person who wins gets a nuclear bomb and gets to destroy all the other players on the in the game yes which the manhattan project even in that situation when you literally did have that possibility where the winner gets to blow

SPEAKER_09: everybody else up the winner didn't blow everybody else up so here we are and keep in mind the gap

SPEAKER_11: between the us's first test atomic explosion and the ussr's wasn't that long that technology advantage didn't last forever but jason i really feel like you're just that's like a really interesting

SPEAKER_10: question like even in that situation i wonder claude can you get us the gap between the us's

SPEAKER_11: trinity explosion and the first test explosion of the ussr uh jason you're doing the meme though and i just pulled it up uh from the singularity subreddit i saw this the other day yeah it's a flow chart in a circle and it says grok introduces the world's powerful model then open ai does then deep seek then gemini then grok yeah and so you're right but this is the spinning wheel that i don't want too slow because there's so many cool companies building cool stuff and so we just need to protect we just need to protect that and that's something i want to want to keep our eye on as we talk about

SPEAKER_109: all this ai stuff as time goes on all right four years and one month the us had as an edge over

SPEAKER_10: the ussr in atomic explosion significant four years you could you could have taken over the world in

SPEAKER_22: that amount of time what was the minimum amount of time necessary once achieving that accomplishment

SPEAKER_20: and having a nuclear bomb would you need in order to take over the world a year let's get producer

SPEAKER_98: claude on that immediately and if you don't like the answer we're going to drag daria up in front of congress and whack him with a stick no unnecessary to uh unnecessary to uh to even think that one

SPEAKER_22: through because it would be like you you did have plenty of time to do it thankfully in that situation

SPEAKER_00: we did so in this one the i guess the thought experiment would be somebody creates something so powerful that they could dominate all of humanity for some very long period of time what would that be uh fusion energy maybe maybe some type of bioweapon like if you think about it as something dark like

SPEAKER_25: a bioweapon or you could think about it as something very uh powerful in terms of economically or for the quality of life like i don't know fusion if you discovered fusion and you kept it to yourself for a couple of years and then everybody else got it would you have some insurmountable lead i don't think so

SPEAKER_96: all right listen i'm gonna level with you we already know ai agents are using your websites they're using your products even if you're not aware of them agents are about to change how we handle all kinds of online transactions but there's really a big problem isn't there how do we separate the real authentic agents that represent real people from spam bots and even worse bad actors you wouldn't book a trip with a sketchy travel agent or a flight on an airline you've never heard of or trust a new employee who didn't have an ein or a social security number right that's why our friends at vouch developed their know your agent platform this is brand new technology with ky a from vouched now you have everything you need identity servers that help you verify the human beings behind ai agents permissions and delegation enforcement giving you the master controls you need over what you've built and legal grade compliance and know that dot ai a living directory of pre-verified agents right agents are going to be talking to each other that's starting to happen folks so you need to know the other side of the transaction the other agent who's working with your agent so turn your ai infrastructure into production grade software with know your agent from vouched here's your call to action check it out for yourself at vouch.id twist that's vouch.id twist trust for agents that's built for builders like you

SPEAKER_00: so maybe somebody in our audience can give us these uh ideas infinite energy would then accelerate the

SPEAKER_01: amount of energy you could put towards computing and then maybe you make the next 10 discoveries so i guess it could be like a domino's effect

SPEAKER_47: hmm so there's a there's a short story by isaac osimov called alexander the god it's not about me shockingly enough

SPEAKER_11: but it's very good and it breaks down what might happen if someone built a computer system that was so powerful it could run the global financial markets and essentially win and then the the moral of the story you just your spoiler is that the computer eventually becomes so powerful it fuses and then there's a global panic and then everything goes back to normal uh but this has been a thought experiment for a long time and i think even in those earlier free ai moments we were thinking about how

SPEAKER_10: it might also unravel perfect no one's gonna win forever perfect segue speaking of infinite money

Chamath Palihapitiya: glitch and the gods bitcoin is that an all-time new high it's kind of somewhat related right there's a

SPEAKER_22: crypto project in the sky that is now at 119 dollars this feels like a breakout point it was always hovering right around 100k and people were wondering you know is that 250k moment going to arrive if it breaks to 119 that feels like some support level where it does feel like okay we're on the way to 200 and uh if it's on the way to 200 then hitting three four five seems also reasonable and then that eventually becomes this magical million dollar bitcoin um but there are people who are clearing positions did you hear about this old wallet that's was a i did yeah there's a wallet that's been around since the time of satoshi the satoshi era and it just got cleared so if what that means is somebody sat on some billions of dollars tens of thousands of coins for an extremely long time people probably thought the wallet was dormant and here we are explain to the audience what the sleeping beauty bitcoin

SPEAKER_11: wallet is so if you go back in time to when bitcoin was put together a lot of people accumulated a lot of bitcoins because they weren't worth much at the time in fact if you go back in time you could get a couple for doing like a capture people gave them away in their signatures because they were worth a fraction of a cent you know and there was going to be lots of them so who really cared some of those wallets from that era simply have not made a transaction so they're called silent or asleep or come you pick whatever term you want for it jason but when one of those early wallets wakes up and begins to transact or move currency around people pay a lot of attention to it for several reasons one it means that the overall supply of bitcoin may be more liquid than we thought one reason why people are often very bullish on bitcoin's price appreciation is that people buy it and then hold and so a lot of the big blocks of bitcoin holdings move well it could imply they're going to sell and move the price and so forth people are also curious about satoshi's own holdings and so forth but just seeing a wallet wake up after 10 15 years is uh is a it shakes the foundation of how people think about bitcoin now in this case uh hasn't changed the price in a negative way in fact as you just said we hit a new high um but i'm curious to see if more of these wallets will wake up because if i had two billion dollars um sitting in bitcoin and i don't i would probably buy a boat just saying what is the thesis here or the

SPEAKER_00: the theory of who this person is and what happened did they have enough money so they were a tech executive let's say who got into this early and they were already worth tens of millions of dollars

SPEAKER_22: and they had this wallet or maybe they had that wallet plus some other ones those other ones they were living off of they sold along the way but what else could explain somebody having billions of

SPEAKER_00: dollars in bitcoin and previously hundreds of millions and before that tens of millions and before that millions and just being able to sit on it and do nothing were they getting a margin loan against it this whole time and living off of a loan against sure that could that be possible without the and

SPEAKER_22: the wallet wouldn't have needed they could have just given custodia the the custodian uh somebody else could be the custodial of that wallet i guess would be the way to say it and given ownership of it and

SPEAKER_00: now they've decided to liquidate it did the person lose the password for 12 years and find a thumb drive with it on it and then say oh i forgot i bought these and they opened up their account and

SPEAKER_09: it was there it's just a very weird story um to have come out of nowhere the the latest that i've

SPEAKER_11: seen on this and i have not actually gone and verified this to the nth degree so i'm spitballing here with my friend jason don't take this all the way to church and back but i did see some reporting that there is new scams and exploits being aimed at very early bitcoin wallets and i'm curious if this may have got caught up in that because i don't see a particular reason why it would start to move at 118 versus 57 versus 32 versus 11. so somebody was able to hack it in some way

SPEAKER_25: interesting uh worrisome yeah that would be worrisome anyway um coinbase robin hood it seems like everything just six months into this new administration right they started on january 20th and it's july 11th so we're almost at the six month mark here crypto has been so um given the green light green flags in order for people to do things like stable coins meme coins that robin hood and coinbase have just gone on a run stable coins with circle going public this is quite a time for fintech too yeah

SPEAKER_11: absolutely and we're seeing venture capitalists respond to this so if you're listening to the show today and you're building in the web3 space we have some good news for you uh according to crypto rank in the first quarter of this year crypto venture investments just cracked the 10 billion dollar mark that was up 263 percent from the year ago quarter and in the first quarter of this year just in 7.45 billion that was up 136 year over year so if you take a look at the historical chart here of investments into the crypto space you'll know that there's quite a lot of large bars to the right which means that people are putting more capital to play now the number of rounds isn't actually that exciting it seems to be relatively trending lower uh but the amount of money flowing into crypto companies is is popping off and so if you got stuck in the winter and are now looking to raise again well this is a pretty warm time uh the real question though jason for you is are you going to start now backing crypto companies because when i joined the show you were yeah a little skeptical i i

SPEAKER_42: mean for good reason if you looked at the companies you could wind up very quickly getting into a

SPEAKER_22: lawsuit being sued you know being you know and not just being sued by anybody maybe the sec decides to sue you this was a really dangerous uh place to be investing capital and that fall off there for july that's a i'm obviously a partial month so that might only be a week and that would probably

SPEAKER_25: explain that drop off if you look at june five billion dollars raised that's a big number i wonder if that includes circles ipo i would think it does so and then the other five billion i wonder if that's

SPEAKER_22: another crypto public company as well or if this is all just venture dollars into those companies this

SPEAKER_148: is all venture dollars as it was described by a crypto rank um but you know everyone counts slightly

SPEAKER_62: different than jason so i don't want to be overly proscriptive but my my read was this is just

SPEAKER_20: venture so it would not include the circle around yeah and these rounds are also very strange like

SPEAKER_22: these could include icos and people selling coins and then getting back other coins so i don't know if this is all venture capitalists putting money in but let's put that aside for a second um i think you could feel pretty good going to an attorney and saying if i'm going to do this stablecoin thing if i'm going to do this will i be sued and they would say a lot less chance than under biden so yeah if the president can launch a meme coin i think you can too uh and and i think that's kind of where these well i mean let's call it what it is you know they've said meme coins nfts these are collectibles if you want to buy collectibles and they trade with the ticker symbol on you know trading accounts on robin hood where i bought my trump coin and i've lost 70 um and i did it as a joke obviously but um you know you this is now the rules of the road and i think it was previously if you do something that's innovative or new you're going to get caught and it's just a matter of how big the settlement is and if you can survive well we see xrp as an example of that they were able to survive they had enough money enough cash that they were able to fight that lawsuit until trump came into

SPEAKER_25: office and xrp was i think is largely off the hook now um i don't know the exact state of all their cases but i believe they won one case they weren't able to prove that they were doing solicitation of non-accredited investors because those things were trading on um marketplaces not being sold directly by xrp so they it wasn't that they weren't selling to consumers it was it couldn't be proven that they were selling to consumers putting all that aside um i think now people are you're in the clear um is probably how most people feel to experiment does it mean commit crimes does it mean abscom with the money like we saw with ico so i think we'll see a lot of innovation i've always liked fintech we were involved in robin hood and wealthfront i think fintech's a great space you know and um adjacent to fintech is crypto sometimes they overlap sometimes they don't um but now with a crypto regulations being out there i think you're allowed to dream again hey what could the world look like if you could tokenize shares of a private company like robin hood did with open ai shares like okay it seems like there's enough legal consensus that you can experiment again so here we are folks great time to give it a shot and invest and uh everybody's got to take as investors and as founders you got to take your you got to define your own level of risk and when you talk to attorneys they will almost universally tell you like we can't give you a legal opinion on this it's too new

SPEAKER_00: in these kind of areas and so then they rely on what's happened to other companies and other cases out there well if all the other cases are being folded and settled okay yeah they can tell you we don't

SPEAKER_25: have exact law or hey the stable coin laws are in process this is where we think they wind up here's what circle did they're in the clear and then if you wanted to innovate beyond what circle's doing and maybe get closer to tether and offshore you know uh marketplaces for crypto etc and exchanges yeah then

SPEAKER_00: you're going to be taking more risk and jurisdiction is the other piece that really matters here if you're doing stuff in panama and malaysia and singapore and dubai like zerg different places have different rules the united states is catching up to those yeah but catching up by having fewer i think

SPEAKER_156: is maybe the right way to say that kind of a race to uh a more relaxed market for entrepreneurs and that's

SPEAKER_11: why when i see companies like agora raising for its you know stable coin product well it kind of just tracks with how you and i view the world and what we see coming people want stable coins they want to be able to trade okay well off we go now before we get to our guest jason a couple of small things one uh grok g-r-o-q not g-r-o-k the ai model this is the inference provider of course i believe uh sunny

SPEAKER_29: from uh our old ai shows yeah yeah he's he's now he's part of the grok family right he sold his

SPEAKER_22: company to grok and he is responsible for all the developer relations which i think it's like developers.crock.com g-r-o-q as opposed to g-r-o-k which is elon's grok these folks make

SPEAKER_25: inference ships um and uh they've done a ton of different deals and uh they're raising more

SPEAKER_11: money it seems yeah yeah so according to reporting they're going to raise between 300 and 500 million dollars at a six billion dollar valuation but for context their last round jason 640 at a 2.8 so a more than doubling of their value why well they signed a big deal with saudi arabia and i believe it was the humane project their ai kind of g42 competitor they also announced an expansion into europe and perhaps most importantly the information reports that they grew their revenue from 90 million last year to an expected 500 million this year so 6 billion 500 12x makes a lot of sense to me i don't know their margins i don't know how repeatable the revenue is we can't say it's an arr multiple but 12x does not seem nuts for that level of growth and i just love to see companies that are not just nvidia but are building chips for the future do well because back to our point about ai models steel sharpens steel and we want to see a lot of companies pushing ahead here with new ideas and so forth and grok makes lpus not gpus those are language processing units as opposed to graphical processing units so i'm really excited about this i'm keeping tabs on grok i think it's a really cool company and i just hope that they do really well and uh make

SPEAKER_137: sure that jensen stays up at night yeah i am a shareholder and they uh of course i was a shareholder in sunny's company which got bought so i have some modest exposure here so apparently this

SPEAKER_09: is good for me uh never mind i hope grok crashes into a wall and i don't know i'm just yeah no

SPEAKER_25: so far so good you know the inference chips uh are it's a different architecture than say when you're building your language model and you have to compile it essentially so there is going to be uh an

SPEAKER_00: infinite it seems uh or in the medium term an infinite appetite for this as consumers stop doing jobs and businesses stop doing jobs inside of apps or sas software and they start with a language model

SPEAKER_25: and when you start with a language model and you need a context window and you've got a you want to throw a video in there and say tell me about this video or a book or a book and a video or you want to index your entire hard drive and you know make that the context window like it's it's going to be

SPEAKER_00: pretty crazy um i don't know when we get to the point at which this becomes like storage and people are like i don't know how much storage i have or need because every three or four years like they keep giving me the ability to record in 4k 8k whatever you know and it doesn't make the

SPEAKER_25: videos any better and the storage keeps going down as our phones and the quality of the video goes up

SPEAKER_00: so even as we make bigger and bigger files it doesn't seem like the storage business is a great

SPEAKER_25: one to be in at some point 10 years from now 20 years from now we'll be looking at these um this kind of infrastructure in that way i'm sure but that's not going to be for another 10 or 20 years

SPEAKER_00: it took gosh i'm trying to think about how long we sweated storage on computers for consumers or businesses and i would say for consumers it ended sometime 20 years ago where you really didn't have to think about it right like you weren't buying your computer and saying how much storage does it have because you had cloud become available and cloud was easily expandable so that was 15 20 years ago 2005 time period uh ram uh and processing power of chips gosh i think that stopped maybe 10 or 15 years ago where people don't even look at how how much ram they have on their computer unless you're doing

SPEAKER_27: video editing or video games no or or you're a tab hoarder in chrome because chrome chrome's i mean

SPEAKER_171: you're right apart from chrome yeah but you don't need to have that many tabs open that's like a choice

David Friedberg: that's like a crazy that's like i don't know i'm gonna make a two hour 8k video on my or fork i don't

SPEAKER_01: know if my phone can do 8k it does 4k for sure i'm gonna make like a 60 frame per second 4k video of like a flower growing like you don't need to make that you can make a short 30 second video it's

SPEAKER_22: the same thing it doesn't change you're choosing to open infinite tabs and then complaining when you run out of memory it's stupid it's like it's unnecessary just close your tab in fact people like you are now causing these browser companies to add features where they turn off and they shadow

David Friedberg: turn off your tabs like you know that's what's happening now they like you're actually turn them off well you can also close your windows why why do you keep all these tabs open i don't get it

SPEAKER_11: well i mean just just for this show i have about 15 articles pulled up for various contextual points

SPEAKER_177: that i might need to reference and then 15 is fine but you're gonna have another entire sorry good i'm sure you're you're 50 we all know 15 is okay but i think you've got 50 tabs open right now

SPEAKER_12: oh yeah then i have a separate chrome instance that has all my screen shares prepped for the show and then in my third chrome window and then on my other screen i mean we pull together a lot of stuff for this show and so i just i use a lot of tabs and wait how do we end up here oh ram right

SPEAKER_22: let's get back on top like june could you possibly need more than 16 gigabytes of ram on a laptop if

SPEAKER_00: you're not doing video editing i think the answer is no and yeah i i have now stopped even

SPEAKER_22: in i i literally get the lowest amount of storage because i everything's in the cloud so i don't think about storage anymore i don't think about the cpu the gpu or the cpu anymore because they're all off the charts in mac and on pc there's no game or something i'm playing that needs that and then even video editors they used to come back to me every year and say oh you know can i get an upgraded computer now they have computers that are two or three years old and they're like yeah works fine works fine i'm like should we get the new one it seems like it's faster it's like yeah it's 20 faster we don't need it so that's that's going to be interesting to see if that happens with ai clusters and then you think about like colossus that elon built that really i think is a big part of why grok hit these things is that they have this giant cluster how long are those gpus good for you put up a hundred thousand of them you can use them for three four or five years what's the

SPEAKER_11: lifespan of those is microsoft recently changed the accounting of its depreciation jason okay pushing it out by one more year i think it was four to five from four to five okay so call it a half decade

SPEAKER_00: okay five years so you spend all of that money billions of dollars hundred thousand you know per gpu or server i guess you know like like and then it's gone in five years and then what do you do what are we going to do with all these colossus you know data centers do they stay online do they have some afterlife purpose or do you they're not worth running anymore because the new ones are so much more energy efficient that we just turn them off or can they be used for something else i think it's like actually if we're going to build out this much infrastructure people should be asking these questions if somebody let's put this on the docket for monday i would like to get the answer to this one is what happens if these things do have a five-year life what is the post five-year plan what is the plan for year six to ten do they get turned off because the energy consumption makes them not worth using do they get resold is there somebody who needs to use them in a world where ai has solved all those problems then you don't need these chips anymore the problem's been solved it's been baked into an llm i'm just really wonder what happens to all these i wonder if nvidia has like a recycling problem because with facebook what how long does facebook keep their servers on you know in that open cloud had that open computing standard they created i wonder how long they depreciate theirs for before the energy consumption of them in ratio to what they're capable of doing becomes untenable and you're just better off turning them off and then if you turn them off is it worth taking them out of the rack for the real estate or do you just leave them in the rack and then just build more racks behind them in a giant data center and just turn them off because the real estate cost is less than the cost of dragging them out of there depending on where you are i have i have a lot of questions about all this so we'll talk about it more but just

SPEAKER_11: a couple of quick data points um according to a number of sources here when you do run these gpus in a data center at like max capacity for a while they do degrade so they do actually have a life expectancy to them now the major companies have pushed out their depreciation calendars

SPEAKER_00: have like they break like or they are like a battery on a tesla or an eva that they degrade and they can capable of 60 or 80 i wonder what they mean by degrade like actually break or they perform

SPEAKER_29: at a lower ability well according to uh training data from meta's llama three uh there's actually a

SPEAKER_62: nine percent annual failure rate uh of gpus used for training information so again we'll do more

SPEAKER_30: researcher but that's one thing wow okay yeah that's that's a lot so that means every 10 years or every 11 years they have all failed oh wow that's interesting that's brutal but i think the

SPEAKER_11: real question is how fast does nvidia push the envelope out because every year if they have a a faster chip out that's much better i think that makes yes last year's trip depreciate faster so if nvidia runs into a problem that it can't expand capacity or performance faster then i think these last longer but if nvidia is better they get shorter lifespan so we'll talk more about that on on monday

SPEAKER_161: uh yeah and the other piece of research is i wonder what it costs to to ship them and to rack them

SPEAKER_11: and to unwrap them now we have we have a guest jason so i'm going to go ahead and move our click to cancel work until monday uh there's a lot of interesting stuff there but it's just gonna take

SPEAKER_12: too long to get us through so i think it's time for a quick commercial break while we get our

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SPEAKER_22: we have a founder i'm a second time investor in ben's company uh his first company neighborly such a great idea during covid um and it wound up shutting down we'll get into that but you have a new company uh and it's ben siddle i'm pronouncing your name correct you are siddle um and uh the new company you came to me and you pitched me this idea i said that sounds crazy there's many more questions

SPEAKER_210: than answers for this one i'm in so let's uh talk a little bit about what you're building with autolane

SPEAKER_212: yeah so with autolane we're building the connective tissue between autonomous vehicles and businesses so it's essentially an operating system that allows high volume retailers shopping centers so think of like a whole foods or a costco or a shopping center like the domain here in austin to be able to connect coordinate and control uh autonomous vehicles on the property got it so i have something like

SPEAKER_22: the domain which is an outdoor mall here in north austin it's pretty impressive when you see it it's like

SPEAKER_00: you can live there and there's an apple store of tons of restaurants they want to get deliveries there it's going to be automated obviously there'll be self-driving cars we got self-driving cars all over austin for whatever reason this has become ground zero it seems but there needs to be some connective tissue when you're in la there are those street what do they call those little robots on the street oh the sidewalk bots the sidewalk bots um we are seeing zipline in dallas doing drone delivery

SPEAKER_22: but the big opportunity in your mind is a self-driving tesla a waymo a volkswagen id buzz zooks a zooks is going to show up at the domain and somehow at the domain a retailer is going to take a burrito or uh you know a pair of sneakers and put them into a self-driving car that's going to come to my ranch out in hill country and give me what i want yeah so which piece of the puzzle are you going

SPEAKER_26: to take care of or is that all the point of this startup is to figure out what needs to get done

SPEAKER_219: yeah so so we can't put the idea essentially if you if you look at the components that you would

SPEAKER_212: need in order to make that type of a transaction possible of course you need a self-driving car you need that technology to be flawless and i think we're pretty close to that um so i kind of envisioned well fast forward a few more years and let's say most oems are either licensing or shipping some type of personally owned autonomous vehicle toyota gm ford you'll have a bunch of uh these companies shipping these types of cars and if most of us have access to this technology don't these cars essentially become physical ai agents these become you're you're kind of like

SPEAKER_223: butler right yeah so in that model i have the car i have a model y hardware for pretty incredible

SPEAKER_22: not perfect yet but getting there pretty close right i think i would say two out of three drives i

SPEAKER_00: do is flawless one out of three i can have a that was sub optimal moment or oh my god moment to be totally candid like when it gets near construction that seems to be for these cars really challenging um but i might send my car to the domain and say hey my car is there what now yep and

SPEAKER_226: that's and that's so that's what we are building so we most of the i would say autonomous driving

SPEAKER_212: technology has been applied to ride hailing thus far so of course waymo has been operating in public for years um with almost no significant incidents um so i don't think there's been any nobody's gotten hurt nothing and so you know they've they've now have more market share than lyft does in san francisco and and and still growing so i think that san francisco if you were to look at the market share for uh for ride hailing you could pretty much assume that what you're seeing in san francisco is going to continue to uh expand and and duplicate across the country over time now it won't be an overnight situation but of course av ride hailing is here yeah um and if that's any indication of where the general market is going for tnc's aggregators you should expect that delivery will also go that direction over time and so what we've been building at autolane is essentially the connective tissue to say if that is to take place the the vehicles are here the ai driving systems are here the regulations are coming consumer adoption is happening but if you've taken away mo or you've used fsd to go to a business uh you'll quickly notice that one of the hardest parts and kind of least developed parts of the technology is the pickup and drop off experience yes and because of that uh and that is like what we call the last 50 feet because that is the part that is is really unrefined at this moment that's where we are focused on at autolane is to build the software and hardware to basically enable physical and digital infrastructure to make that final 50 feet polished and flawless and then if that can take place then all of a sudden you have the ability for these cars to conduct commerce and that's where we think that the next wave of commerce is going um i really believe that we're going to see something akin to the transition we saw with e-commerce we're going to see something that i would coin autonomous commerce it makes sense to me because

SPEAKER_22: there are places i've wanted to go here in austin there's like a a sand dough shop you know japanese sandwiches and i have wanted to go to this place in north austin but i live in south austin in the hill country and i just haven't a chance to go up there and there's traffic etc now if i could i would have ordered from this place every week some sushi or a nice katsu curry or a you know wagyu sandwich on that great japanese bread yum yum it would have been very easy for me to just say i order it my car will be there just put it in the front trunk with an ice pack and um yeah my car comes back here to capital

SPEAKER_00: factory where i have our studio and i jump back in my car and go home that's right it could have done

SPEAKER_68: that errand for me already yep and two or three other ones yep but there is so much logistics in

SPEAKER_22: what i just described that's right which is why i was really excited to invest in the company yeah and thank you for that oh well of course i mean uh the the the greatest success we've had is when we've known a founder for two or three startups and your first startup was amazing i still think it's one of the greatest ideas i've ever heard and i still think it will work but i'm glad you went on to this one because this one feels like it's even bigger and that's typically what happens with founders they have some amount of success with cigar tissue in the first one and the second one then they're just like oh yeah i'm not going to make those mistakes i'm not going to overspend on this i'm not going to under invest in that and they just boom boom boom so we just love second third time founders here especially if the first company or second company was a complete disaster blew up or was like a modest success because those things kind of set you up you still have the chip on your shoulder we'll get to that in a second so also this is going to be super fragmented is your best guess oh yeah super fragmented so explain the fragmentation and then what you perceive a retailer

SPEAKER_68: what set of problems is the retailer going to have due to that fragmentation great question

SPEAKER_212: so so yeah one of the easiest ways to think through how this industry could play out from a solution standpoint so let's let's take walmart for example okay so if you agree with me that personally owned autonomous vehicles or autonomous vehicles in general as a technology are going to scale over the next five to ten years if we agree on that everybody agrees okay well then i guess you would also need to agree that those cars are going to go to walmart's yes they already are yeah waymos are dropping people off picking people up from those stores there isn't commerce taking place with walmart directly yet via those vehicles but of course there will be and so one of the major aspects of this conversation that that i think is important to consider is whether or not because the industry is a bit divided on this topic but whether or not you believe in personally owned autonomous vehicles being a significant uh market share within the autonomous vehicle industry some people believe oh the the technology is going to scale and the costs are going to come down to a point where oems will operate their own robotaxi networks and people just won't own cars and i think people will choose not to own a car i think there's a lot of people who believe that side of the spectrum of the uh of the industry where essentially you won't need a car at all and these the services both uh ride hailing and delivery will be so cheap that it really won't be a need to have a car so maybe maybe that becomes young people i could see it for people who live in an

SPEAKER_22: urban environment and don't have access to a garage people said that about uber you know since

SPEAKER_212: the early days and it remains to be seen whether that played out the way full uber i would say is

SPEAKER_246: like five percent of the population exactly i don't think maybe it goes to ten yeah totally and

SPEAKER_212: so i think i we believe uh a similar situation is going to arise here with autonomous and actually it's not in my opinion the case that we just won't own cars it's that actually the cars that we do own are going to be able to do a multitude of things for us and they're going to be much more valuable and we'll need less of them but i do think most people will own a personally owned autonomous vehicle in their driveway and it can do errands for them it can pick up their kids from school it can drop them off at the airport and drive home can do all types of things and so we might instead of having two or three cars as an average american household we might just have one or down to one

SPEAKER_22: and a half because when i get dropped off here at work i could send my car that's right to go pick up the kids from camp the cars then they could also make their way to i don't know um back to the ranch yeah to run some errands for the housekeeper uh and get some chicken feed or something so so we

SPEAKER_212: really think that personally on autonomous vehicles is going to be the the future of transportation yeah and if that's the case and you go back to kind of your question about walmart and their fragmentation so if most people have access to this technology whether you own the car or not or whether it's your neighbors or your friends and you order something from walmart groceries retail what have you well that car is going to be able to go to walmart now if that's a toyota or a tesla or that's going through doordash or that's going through uber eats or that's any over that's a drone i mean you're talking about not just cars but all types of uh robotics here that are going to do consumer transactions and so those vehicles are going to walmart to do commerce on behalf of a consumer imagine being walmart in this case yes it is a complete nightmare that is about to uh

SPEAKER_00: unfold on their hands because in their parking lot there will be 10 times as many

SPEAKER_212: there are showing up that plus there will be 15 to 20 oems and each one of these oems have a different

SPEAKER_254: hardware software and data stack right and that's not one type of vehicle they have to already design their parking lots for a number of vehicles you could have you know trailers showing up in the

SPEAKER_25: back to unload you could have you know suvs you know so right now a parking lot has compact car spots

SPEAKER_00: spots for the trucks spots for suvs and larger ones and maybe a pickup a drop-off zone they've got maybe arguably curbside pickup and curbside pickup so they got maybe five areas right now now you need another area where my self-driving model y or your self-driving toyota because waymo just said they're

SPEAKER_80: going to license waymos yep self-driving to toyotas like you saw that announcement i'm sure you're on top of that hyundai as well yeah on hyundai they're doing it they've got a partnership with hyundai wow so all those cars are going to have self-driving they're going to show up in a parking lot what parking space do they go to yep do they go to the pickup zone do they go to any spot in the pickup zone how do you know the car is there how do you know where to put the stuff does it go in the back seat the trunk the frunk how do you how do you unlock the trunk you gotta

SPEAKER_265: unlock the car how do you know which vin it is how do you know which customers associated with which

SPEAKER_212: car how do you know which stall that car is in how do you know uh which order if you have three orders at walmart and my car goes well which order is it there's there's basically what i call the three c's of av orchestration that walmart or any major retailer is going to need to solve one being communication so this is jason's model y it's coming to pick up order number one two three it'll be here in 16 minutes okay license plate blah blah it'll be install two okay all that information needs to be communicated uh the second part of is coordination making sure that that car is going to go where walmart wants it to go because yeah the curbside pickup operation across 4 500 stores operating 16 hours a day is a very expensive uh labor line item on their oh yeah so when they can shave off 15 30 45 seconds from a pickup and drop off curbside arrangement then they are operating more profitably and then they can knock the prices down on their retail good which is the entire walmart business model right like operating this model reduce the prices for consumers and sell more goods and so they they are obsessed with finding ways in which to do these types of things more efficiently and so are so is mcdonald's so is chick-fil-a down the line h-e-b and so really what you end up with on those three seasons you've got the communication you've got the coordination the car needs to go right here so we can be faster and then the last part of it is control now you don't need to tell the car how to drive to walmart but you do when it gets to your private property you do need to say okay well i need to be able to unlock this car unlock the frunk or unlock the trunk yeah and if you have 20 oems shipping different types of autonomous vehicles your walmart you're gonna have to have an integration with every single oem and those oem integrations that are not stable for five years tesla's apis change every two weeks i know that because we have integrations with tesla so you're gonna have 20 oems that are changing their code base every two weeks that's an entire in-house team that you're gonna have to have yeah and walmart with cars potentially could build this software

SPEAKER_68: maybe but they're one of the few who could actually create this and then sure toyota

SPEAKER_00: hyundai would have no choice but to interface with walmart that's right but after walmart

SPEAKER_277: that drops off pretty quick it does yeah like even h-e-b is a local retailer that's right they're not across the entire united states that's right starbucks yeah they might be able to figure this

SPEAKER_22: interface out with their drive-through maybe but still you know with all these different players showing up i i could see a world in which 10 years from now there would be more autonomous vehicles in a drive-through in a walmart parking lot than actual human customers all right everybody this has

SPEAKER_72: been and go check out auto lane is it auto lane.com go auto lane.com go auto lane.com and we'll see you all next time on this week in startups bye bye