SPEAKER_00: david sachs had a last minute board meeting so he will not be joining us i'll be david sachs

SPEAKER_01: please do your best impression can you imagine hi jason hello sister how are you jason do you

SPEAKER_05: know what i'm about to do i'm so excited i'm so excited tell me do you remember fake chamath

SPEAKER_07: of course yes do we have to log it do you know who that is of course right oh you're gonna reveal who

SPEAKER_10: fake chamath i'm revealing oh wow it's a big reveal nine years later i want that handle i i would like to get that handle and give it to someone to be i i hand it to you whoever you want well trust

SPEAKER_12: me there's a lot of people who would love to have the fake chamath handle well how do i get it do i ask the can i ask linda at twitter for it yeah i you know we might know somebody at twitter who can

SPEAKER_10: reach maybe you can help me i am so credible as the person who deserves that password of all the people

SPEAKER_12: who've suffered spending time with chamath you're you're at the top of that list anybody has the

SPEAKER_16: right to mock chamath i mean you've had to watch his growth over 20 years you've had to suffer i raised

SPEAKER_27: him i raised chamath and he raised me right back all right welcome back to the program everybody

SPEAKER_12: one of the guests we've always dreamed about having on the show is considered one of the great

SPEAKER_29: business operators of all time in silicon valley for the past 20 years cheryl sandberg was a key some might say the key piece in building the two largest advertising and technology companies in the world google and facebook paradoxically they they don't go by those names anymore alphabet and meta when she joined google in 2001 it had 20 million in revenue they were private and when she left in 2008 they had 22 billion dollars in revenue when she joined facebook in 2008 it was at 270 million dollars in revenue when she left it was at 117 billion market caps of those two companies have grown 100 billion and 950 billion during her 10 years and today both are worth over three trillion dollars combined and are the number four and number seven market cap companies in the world however to our crew she will always be bestie dave goldberg's dream girl as he once described it to me he told me he pursued her relentlessly until she finally gave in dated and then married him and started a beautiful family together dave goldberg passed away nine years ago this week uh in 2015 in an alternate universe on a different timeline goldie would have been one of the four people on this panel because he was the most wise funny super mensch of the entire 10-person core poker group the original poker group in fact he was twice the man of any of us which given the low benchmark we've set isn't that difficult we can get at least three shows worth of wisdom from our current guest but that's not why she's joining us today she made a documentary and we're here to talk about that and we'll have some time for business talk at the end which is going to be a very hard pivot uh given the nature of the doc the doc she co-produced is called screams before silence i watched it on the flight back from new york i had to take three breaks and it took a lot of tissues if i'm being honest it is one of the most difficult hours of viewing i've ever had in my life it is focused on the sexual violence committed by hamas during and after the october 7th attacks and which tragically in all likelihood continues today with the hostages who are still somewhere in gaza the documentary also takes on claims in our polluted journalistic conspiracy-filled media landscape that claim none of this happens she traveled to israel to conduct interviews for it and outside of comforting the victim she spends less than 90 seconds speaking in it herself the story of course speak for themselves now this isn't a disclaimer but some context about this podcast for those of you who are here for the first time might be helpful we realize we're wading into a conflict that is thousands of years old and it's shrouded in pain and suffering with a foundation on the most deeply held religious beliefs humanity has ever formed when we do podcasts like this and have guests we'll be championed by one side and derided by the other but as you know we don't shy away from the hard discussions on this podcast we go all in on them equal time will always be given and we welcome all sides on these difficult discussions it goes without saying that we're not here to be your expert or final authority we're here to have a first principle discussion and to personally learn alongside each other in good faith in good faith this is a really important concept because it's hard to have these discussions in good faith today so with that i'll welcome to the all in podcast our bestie

SPEAKER_40: cheryl sandberg well saying two things you just said that dave would have been on this podcast i've

SPEAKER_01: thought that actually um and calling me a bestie because i've been friends with all of you for so long means a lot to me yeah uh jason you dedicated your book to dave that meant everything to me david freeberg and i have been traveling around together to conferences sitting in the back seat of cars and shema it's a really special moment to be here with you we allow we lost dave nine years ago yesterday we were at our dear friend phil joyce's 50th birthday party it happened suddenly uh i was in shock everyone was in shock chamath sprung into action took care of every logistical thing you could have possibly needed but then he did something you did something chamath even more important which is you showed up for my children not just for the days and weeks but for the months and years afterwards and one of the many things you did is you taught them to play poker because what you said is if dave were

SPEAKER_10: alive he would have taught them to play poker and last night on the ninth anniversary of his loss my kids were in that room playing poker and that is very much to your credit chamath and i will always always be grateful for that and grateful jason to david and all of us for for dave um so the world lost something really big when we lost dave and i think a lot of people know a lot of the things we lost i lost an amazing husband and father to my children you all lost a best friend the world lost

SPEAKER_01: a lot of wisdom but there's actually one thing that the world also lost that we've never shared and i'm prepared to reveal right now right here right now because last night rob goldberg dave's brother and

SPEAKER_05: i decided tears we decided it was time to share people may have known there was a fake chamath twitter handle i built facebook rock the angel world and now on the warriors my motto don't be a d-bag that's my job and people have questioned who this was i mean some people think it was jason calcana some people think it was an obvious choice all right i gotta say some people think it was

SPEAKER_49: tramath himself but you know what one choice yeah the number one choice yeah dave was fake chamath

SPEAKER_10: now he didn't write all the tweets himself i know all of you helped him but he wrote a bunch of them and he used to literally lie in bed next to me write something and just big bellow remember dave's big

SPEAKER_05: laugh he would laugh out loud god and there are so many things the world lost but can you guys imagine the field day dave aka fake chamath would be having with this podcast oh my god field day a field day

SPEAKER_57: all you'd have to do is just take excerpts from the show

SPEAKER_62: i mean it's one of the great things about the great challenge i remember workshopping some tweets here with dave uh with goldie and the the the big laugh we would have and david lee from the warriors was involved in this meshuggah i mean we just had like a whole group who lived to write these tweets

SPEAKER_63: and sometimes chamath's tweets were so insane and deranged that we couldn't top them so we tried to come up like this one from fake chamath

SPEAKER_67: yeah i remember this company this is a great one pinterest is a new hot company in the valley

SPEAKER_63: i don't understand why a site for girls with cats is worth 300 million now that's something that would

SPEAKER_67: be a benign tweet from real chamath here's a great one from october 29th 2011. a lot of demand for me to appear in commercials like others but i am holding out for cartier mercedes is beneath me

SPEAKER_59: i mean this predated all uh laura piana laura piana yeah freebro you got this next one give us

SPEAKER_57: this next one there is a laura piano one in yeah yeah reason number 756 to go to vegas no sales tax on laura piana this is in 2012 by the way very precious if you dress like me i won't

SPEAKER_76: initially think you are a d-bag and there's no way dave know what laura piano was there's no way dave wrote this someone else wrote this one for sure absolutely who was ahead of the time on laura

SPEAKER_59: piano at that time very good i mean it's just incredible people think the laura piana thing is

SPEAKER_67: like recent history it was 12 years ago i mean this is when i mean cheryl before we get started

SPEAKER_80: here cheryl should read that last one that's really good all right cheryl you get the last one

SPEAKER_75: my newest investment is so good jet time you can random video chat with other people who are also on

SPEAKER_13: their private jet g55 to hawker yeah dave loved this group of friends and he loved being fake

SPEAKER_88: chamath yeah loved it anyway the secret's out the secret's out my guess is that side that that

SPEAKER_59: twitter handle is about to get popular again it's gonna get pretty popular and i will just say

SPEAKER_62: as much as dave loved being fake chamath he could it's like half the amount chamath loves being at

SPEAKER_93: chamath so let's just keep let's just keep that in mind here folks oh my god i haven't cried

SPEAKER_96: and laughed so hard in five minutes as i did just now i mean actually in some ways cheryl

SPEAKER_67: you're you're you're our fifth bestie as well you're always welcome to come on the pod and i just also for a little bit of housekeeping here when guests come on this podcast we don't prevent questions no questions are off limits and nobody gets to strike or do anything nonsensical uh with the product

SPEAKER_00: everybody comes here to have journalists we're not we're not journalists we're not traditional

SPEAKER_73: journalists we're friends talking trying to understand stuff and uh just to be clear i know a lot of commentary comes back well why didn't you say this or ask this and you know i i think we're just when we have guests on we just want to talk with them like we would in a living room and have

SPEAKER_30: a conversation so right which means no gotcha journalism although i'll ask a tough question once

SPEAKER_67: in a while that may get me in a little bit of trouble but david freeberg you um set this all up and cheryl have been talking about these important issues and of course we're going to have all sides on so you don't have to email me and and say what about this side what about that side all sides are welcome to come on the pod but freeberg why don't you kick us off here we're going to talk about this important film uh and a lot of the debates going on about this horrific attack on october 7th and and and then what's going on in gaza today but then we also i'm going to try to make that hard pivot to business and get some of cheryl's insights on what's happening in the world today of business

SPEAKER_00: so freeberg why don't you kick us off well i just want to zoom out because i think cheryl um we had

SPEAKER_73: i i believe a couple of conversations after october 7th amongst other folks i've heard that there's been a lot of disappointment that institutions organizations ideologies that have been supported by folks like yourself or maybe you can speak i don't want to put words in your mouth suddenly emerged to be something quite different when threads of anti-semitism started to emerge and folks began to deny certain things based on their ideology about the oppressor oppressed concept being applied to israel and palestine and and maybe you can tell us a little bit about the surprise and journey that you've been through since october 7th with respect to some of the groups that

SPEAKER_108: you've supported that suddenly seem quite different than what maybe we all thought they were prior

SPEAKER_111: look it's a great question because i mean i i'm sorry and and that's the conversation cheryl and i

SPEAKER_73: have been having that led to saying hey why don't you come on the show this week and let's talk about this and other topics particularly given the timing with the release of the film it's a great

SPEAKER_01: question i mean if you had told me on october 6th the following is going to happen terrorists are going to parachute into israel they are going to kill 1200 people they are going to sexually brutalize brutalize and rape multiple women and men i would have said you're crazy then if you would have told me that people were going to deny the reports were going to start coming out people were going to say i'm a first responder i saw naked bodies i saw women bloodied leg spread but then people were going to deny that this happened i would have said you were crazy and then if you had told me that what we would be doing on college campuses is not protesting sexual violence as a tool of war war by the hands of hamas hamas misogynistic homophobic terrorists who are right now holding not just israelis but americans hostage yet we would be protesting and college kids would be screaming we are hamas i would have said you were crazy and that's hit me hard and for me as a woman as a very outspoken feminist it's all hard but the part that has hit me the hardest is the denial of the sexual violence that has just been horrible and so the reports were coming out in november i wrote an op-ed and what my op-ed said was no matter what you believe should happen in the middle east i believe in a two-state solution no matter what flag you're flying march you're going to you can all be united on one thing which is sexual violence should never be used as a tool of war then i did a video that went

SPEAKER_113: pretty viral but people are denying it and they're attacking articles and attacking reports and so i went to israel and i sat down myself with a video crew this was generously financed by this great philanthropist joey lowe and his wife and i sat down there and i asked people what did you see with your own eyes we sat down with a released hostage who told her story and this is because people are

SPEAKER_10: actually denying or ignoring this and that is a horrible place for us to be and truly shocking

SPEAKER_120: truly shocking let's double click into that word denial so it's a very heightened moment everybody

Chamath Palihapitiya: is taking sides everybody's trying to interpret what they think is the right point of view whether it's in that moment or historically in the arc of how israel and palestine have been in conflict where does that aspect of denial come from have you have you spent time trying to unpack like how do you start to get to a place where you say clearly people were killed but then when it goes into war crimes and sexual violence we're actually going to stop it there because it basically pulls our cause back so we can't agree that that actually happened how how does that happen why is that

SPEAKER_01: happening i mean you're framing it exactly right chamath that's exactly what happened so i mean you all talk about this a lot but there's huge polarization what does that mean polarization means i have a view that is so firmly entrenched that i see the word is black and white everything has to fit into my view and my narrative and when it doesn't fit i don't know what to do so i reject it and that's i think what's happening that there is there are people out there who believe that october 7th was resistance i want to be clear i'm not that person i do not believe that i'm horrified by what's happening in gaza every life lost is too much i want two states living peacefully beside each other i really want that but let's say you think october 7th was resistance then all of a sudden you're like wait a

SPEAKER_10: second mass rape genital mutilation of men and women women and men women tied to trees naked bloodied

SPEAKER_01: leg spread that doesn't fit your narrative so what can you do you can wow think maybe the world isn't so black and white maybe i have to rethink my narrative or you can say this didn't happen and i think it is a travesty and a tragedy that anyone could say that and i want to be clear jason you started this by saying you always have positions you always give people room for two sides and that's fantastic i think there are not just two sides multiple sides to the middle east story multiple sides to the history multiple sides what's been going on there are not two sides on this this is sexual violence there is one side one side and we are against it and that's relatively new in the world to take you back quick history lesson which you all know but i'd love for all your viewers to know for a long time the history of mankind women's bodies were part of war you got the village you got the gold you got the women and it was only 30 years ago after the mass rapes of the drc bosnia the former yugoslavia that people said no rape is not a tool of war we will prosecute it as a war crime and a crime against humanity and the feminist groups were the ones who made that happen the civil rights groups the human rights groups they've held since then in this moment if our politics drive us to give

SPEAKER_10: that up think about what we give up because as we're doing this podcast right now there are hostages

SPEAKER_01: in gaza that we know are being sexually assaulted there are women in ukraine sudan ethiopia around the world who are being sexually assaulted right now right now and we can't let that go this is the

SPEAKER_129: one place we need to be united why are the feminist groups finding themselves aligning more with hamas

SPEAKER_00: than they are with this core what seems to be and should be a core ideology so look we can't paint

SPEAKER_131: them all with one brush there are feminist groups that have spoken out on this that have said you know

SPEAKER_01: now did it the new neral did it they said we are against the sexual violence care did it there are groups that have done it no matter what else they're working on a bunch of them have said to

SPEAKER_113: me privately i know you're right of course sexual violence isn't okay and of course this happened but i can't speak out because all my employees are going to get upset i can't speak out because the

SPEAKER_137: young people and that makes me really sad but explain that what does that mean young people will be

SPEAKER_113: upset to know that that both things happen you've got to be able to hold two thoughts at the same time again not my thought but if you believe october 7th is resistant you can still believe sexual

SPEAKER_01: violence happened the fact that a group of feminists none i'm particularly close to have actually signed letters saying this didn't happen is crazy absolutely crazy i mean look i'm going to read this the u.n special representative on sexual violence permila patten traveled to israel and here is what she wrote she said witness eyewitnessed in israel were scenes of unspeakable violence perpetrated with shocking brutality catalog of the most extreme and inhumane forms of killing torture and other horrors including sexual violence that's the u.n they're not exactly a pro-israel group cheryl let me ask because i think

SPEAKER_73: it's important to note some people will counter and say look at this article from gray zone gray zone said western media concocts evidence that the u.n report on october 7th sex crimes failed to deliver for march 7th they said western media promoted a u.n report as proof hamas sexually assaulted israelis yet the report's authors admitted they couldn't locate a single victim suggested israeli officials staged a rape scene and denounced inaccurate forensic interpretations i just want to give you an opportunity to respond to gray zones article because i think a lot of folks have pointed to that article and the articles that that organization has put out as being representative of an alternative view that the sexual violence may maybe didn't happen as evidence in your film maybe you can address it give you a

SPEAKER_116: chance to do that yeah well the key thing you said there is where are the they're asking where are the

SPEAKER_01: victims well let me tell you where the victims are they're dead they're dead that is why we call this

SPEAKER_10: film sorry screams before silence i have a story in this film this woman tolly

SPEAKER_141: i went with her to the trailer where she hid she was at the nova film festival she's a nurse she hid in

SPEAKER_10: a trailer i walked in with her to that trailer the first time she'd been in there and you could see her body like shake and she we didn't this didn't make the final cut of the film but she picked up a black sweater and i think she might have been wearing that sweater i was afraid to ask her but she was like shaking she hid in that trailer for i don't know five six seven hours and she heard sometimes she would hear like a little scream like ah someone's pointing a gun at you and a shot but sometimes she

SPEAKER_141: would heard scream over and over and over stop stop and then for like long period like 15 minutes and

SPEAKER_142: then a shot and then when she got out of that trailer there were naked bodies where she heard

SPEAKER_141: those screams the victims are dead most of them are dead there is exactly one person who is an escape to a released hostage her name is amit sasana she gave a video interview you all saw it we have the only video interview in this documentary and she tells her story very clearly she was held hostage for months she was chained to a bed and as she said it he her captor forced him to do a commit a sexual act on her this woman is so brave and she told me she's speaking out because there are still hostages there but she is the only living witness to speak out we think there are a few more who are in deep trauma

SPEAKER_10: but there were 1200 people killed and at least dozens of them were sexually brutalized assaulted

SPEAKER_73: and that is why they're not speaking out just as a follow-up what is the social and political motivation of a group like gray zone and other appointed deniers what are they trying to accomplish

SPEAKER_01: by denying they're trying to accomplish their narrative that october 7th was justified resistance

SPEAKER_00: because even they understand that it is not taints it because the sexual violence taints it in a way right as opposed to just being soldiers killing soldiers the sexual violence aspect of it taints

SPEAKER_148: the valor of the resistance is that a fair way to summarize yes even they don't believe and it's

SPEAKER_01: interesting hamas has been proudly talking about who they killed but even they deny the sexual violence that wouldn't happen it's against our religion the sexual violence doesn't fit the narrative but i want to be clear the sexual violence was multiple locations systematic meets the definition of a war

SPEAKER_113: crime a crime a crime against humanity and was part of the plan if there was no sexual violence would

SPEAKER_86: it be fair to call it a resistance i would not call it a resistance one of the things that happened after

Chamath Palihapitiya: the holocaust was there was still a small cohort of people that denied that it ever happened and i think that there was to use the word systematic again a systematic effort to document right there's pictures there's museums there's memorials you can think what you want of world war ii or jews in general but you can't deny that that happened and the documentation of it is pretty unambiguous or completely unambiguous when you spent time there is there an effort to start doing this and here's where i'm getting to which is kind of a morbid question but there's a moment in this documentary where this woman who was the doctor in the morgue i guess is talking about all of these bodies and unfortunately where my mind went to but i think it's the kind of the right thought is i hope that there was rape kits done even if it's posthumously because that's the trail of evidence that allows one to know squarely inside of a box this is the totality of what happened as a learning lesson for everybody

SPEAKER_120: including not just the people that disagree but the people that agree and then to reinforce some of these basic rights that we thought we've all signed up for i mean it is such an important question

SPEAKER_01: there were not rape kits done 1200 people killed in one day i don't anyone was people their bodies were

SPEAKER_113: burned people were trying to identify them i've actually looked into this a bunch and in a lot of sexual violence in war situations there are no rape kits so that's actually sometimes they're used but

SPEAKER_01: often in chaos there is none there are very few pictures there are some and i saw them in this documentary and they are sorry they are naked women with nails in their groin like i'm sorry i saw these pictures but what's interesting about it is the people who are the first responders are taught not to take pictures particular particularly of gruesome things they don't have the victims the victims you know right victims rights yeah but the man i interviewed he said 24 hours in he thought to himself no one's going to believe this i got to take pictures and against the training he had he took the pictures and he showed me on his phone he was like i took this and another guy from zaka they're a first responder group that goes in this is an unheard of situation i mean i said to him you've been processing sorry maybe that's not the right word you've been i guess processing dead bodies all over the world how many times in your experience are they naked and he just looked at me and said never they're never naked and what meets the legal criteria for proving crimes against humanity are witnesses eyewitnesses and what's important about the documentary that we did but also important about the efforts israel is doing israel is doing that documentation not israel the country a woman in israel named kochav levy who's fantastic she is from a private university with private funding doing that documentation which at this point are mostly considered of interviews but there are hundreds of them and look i hope people watch in the documentary i go into a field with this guy rami i'm sure you guys remember this he because he's huge right he yeah he stands like this tall over me private citizen this guy is the biggest hero i've ever met in my life sirens go off he gets into his car takes his gun and drives to where incredible bravery rescued hundreds of people himself himself but he got to a field and i stood in those trees and he said these trees he thinks about 30 women

SPEAKER_141: were there and raped or sexually brutalized when he saw them they were naked tied to trees legs red bloodied like bloodied in the regions you would be bloody if you were raped and he what he said in the film is i got there i covered their bodies so no one else would see he didn't take pictures i wish

SPEAKER_10: he had but well i i guess i don't know do i wish he had i don't know but you understand why but he said i saw this with my own eyes and what you saw in the film is this huge man who's so brave fought terrorists

SPEAKER_141: himself crying because he didn't get there early enough to save those women but the good news is

SPEAKER_01: while the victims were killed the good news is the first responders are alive and their testimony which is eyewitness testimony meets the criteria of any international or or global court absolutely

SPEAKER_120: crimes can be proven by eye by by eyewitnesses for sure sure what is the response what is the response

Chamath Palihapitiya: in israel how do you how do you judge what netanyahu is doing both in reaction to the events but then in reaction to these specific aspects of the events what are they doing that's different or what would you wish they were doing differently or can you just give us a sense of how people are processing this

SPEAKER_10: aspect i mean look we need peace we need two sides and two leaders that are committed to peace like long-term peace and there's a lot going wrong you know but on this aspect

SPEAKER_01: you violate someone said it in the film you violate a woman you violate a country there's a reason sexual violence is used as a war crime there's a reason it was used in the drc and bosnia and it's being used in ukraine today because and i can see it in your reaction i mean it's to humiliate a people

SPEAKER_141: right it's to humiliate a country right you humiliate look at look at the three of you like you all don't cry a lot like this is traumatic because you all have mothers and daughters like

SPEAKER_10: you can feel what happens to a country and that's why this was done this was not an accident this was on

SPEAKER_148: purpose and unfortunately it works sexual violence i i think i think of like for us to have a path

SPEAKER_00: towards peace there has to be a degree despite the pain being felt a degree of empathy for the other side's desires the other side's pain the other side's feeling that they were enacting a resistance against an oppression how does one side embrace that aspect having gone through this how do we get to a point that a people can say i have empathy for the resistance after feeling this sort of pain and this is the age-old story of war eye for an eye it never ends it always goes on what's the right path here to hear the other side to hear the kids on campuses to hear the the people in palestine uh to hear the the world saying we feel free palestine um after going through this well i can tell you what i believe

SPEAKER_01: i believe we need peace i believe we need two states i believe that those states need to be run by

SPEAKER_10: peaceful leaders who want prosperity for the other side look i believe we should be able to look at

SPEAKER_141: anyone anywhere in the world but certainly the palestinian people living in gaza and say any death is too much one death is too much no innocent lives should be killed no women no children no innocent

SPEAKER_10: lives should be killed but i think also as part of that path to peace there needs to be forgiveness but there needs to be a clear clear articulation of what is not acceptable ever and the sexual violence

SPEAKER_176: is not acceptable ever if you were if you were netting yahoo what would you do differently i'm sorry

SPEAKER_113: for cutting you off no no i mean i don't have an answer to peace in the middle east i don't i mean

SPEAKER_01: i wish i did but i do have a very strong view that we are not going to get to peace when we are apologizing or denying crimes against humanity and crime mass rape of women well that is not the path to peace the path to peace is not saying this didn't happen the path to peace is saying this happened no matter what side of the fence you're on no matter what side of the world you're on if you're the far right the far left anywhere in the world we're not going to let this happen again and we're

SPEAKER_113: going to get to peace to make sure denial is not going to get us there why is the other side captivated

SPEAKER_73: so much of the youth in the united states what you're very close to harvard maybe tell us what's gone on at harvard over the last few years how did we end up in this place where so much of the youth is so sympathetic to the palestinian cause and not as moved as you are um by the trauma experienced on

SPEAKER_01: the other side i mean y'all are i would throw that question right back to you i know you've talked about you know narratives and oppressor and oppressed and again polarization is where you can only have one view and you cannot tolerate anything that doesn't fit one view and i don't know of anything that's that clear and that simple i mean i'll throw that right back to you you all have been articulate on this and i think have a lot to say well i mean this you said it earlier

SPEAKER_67: cheryl this tolerance for ambiguity this ability the cognitive dissonance to be able to hold in your head that the people of gaza are suffering perhaps i guess the other side would say you know they would they would start down this what about ism it's not my position but what about what netanyahu is doing what about aid to people suffering gaza you've addressed that you don't believe anybody should suffer but i just want to talk a little bit about this conspiracy there that it didn't happen also in the documentary the savagery you chose not to show the graphic photos that uh you saw and that you're clearly traumatized by and a lot of us new yorkers had a similar experience with 9 11 and watching that up close it is what terrorists do terrorists do these things to cause massive trauma to make it impossible to de-escalate that is the sadism that is the pure evil of of this brand of terrorism is to make it impossible for the good people of the world to unwind or or de-escalate and it's i think part of the process is accepting what happened and and coming to some truth and the truth can be there are people dying unnecessarily in gaza there are people starving in gaza there are children who are not getting food and water all of those can be true and this horrific sexual uh sadism and violence that occurred is also true you and that was awesome i couldn't have said that better

SPEAKER_113: that that was exactly right jason that is exactly the point and the path sorry please continue no

SPEAKER_67: i mean i'm i'm trying to make sense of this i and i and i come to it with humility you know uh you know this podcast you know hits a certain notes with people and oh how can people in silicon valley or whatever discuss these topics listen we're all discussing we're all trying to make sense of a very

SPEAKER_29: confusing world but you made two choices in the documentary one was to leave yourself out of it largely your role in the documentary is you know to hug people and to cry alongside them and to witness this stuff you talked for i think 90 seconds in the whole documentary i think this was a an important decision you made um and then you made a decision which i'm not sure if i agree with which is to not show

SPEAKER_67: the photos i am of the belief that people should see what happened on 9 11 as a new yorker who witnessed it and my brothers in the power department and i had ptsd from it i think people have to see these things you chose not to out of respect for the family should put a note at the end explain this choice because i know you must have struggled with it and there are photos that you've seen of women with their breast curve i hate i i don't want to say these things i know it's very traumatic but i believe people have to understand what's in these photos that you saw nails in women's private parts breasts that have been cut off this is undeniable if you want to deny the rapes happened or whatever you cannot deny the photos that you saw he chose not to put them in i understand that decision respect for the family is there not a take us into that decision because maybe there's a maybe you need to and the and the and the woman who who chose to do the interview with you she's so brave she said i had to do this because i wanted to combat the denialism and i don't know who the gray zone is you know the the and i don't know why people are giving it a ton of attention but they you know they are considered the first line of the wikipedia pages it's a fringe website so just

SPEAKER_196: leave it at that i don't know if it is or it isn't but that's the first one on the wikipedia page

SPEAKER_29: is there not a case to be made for making a second version of the documentary that shows exactly these

SPEAKER_67: things so people can stop denying it because then they you would have to come to the place that these

SPEAKER_62: that the people who are one-sided created fake images is that is that where we're we're getting to in this conspiracy filled world that the dozens of people you interviewed are part of a grand conspiracy and the photos are doctored so just talk about that decision you you must have had an

SPEAKER_113: important meeting uh about that look we didn't really have a choice i agree with you i think the world seeing this would probably be necessary at some point i do think the deniers will deny they'll say oh you can doctor any photo so you're gonna have to believe the person who took them anyway we didn't have that choice these photos are held by people who have taken a vow as part of their work as first responders of processing and getting bodies ready for burial that they won't show them it also you know we've made this freely available on youtube so anyone can watch it no firewalls you know anyone can watch this thing if you're over 18 they wouldn't meet youtube standards so that would be taken down

SPEAKER_01: i mean we we can't show them right now for those two reasons but i think over time we the world may have to see some of them but i also want to go back to what shamath said because there are not that there are photos there are clear photos and there are clear witnesses but rami's story he took no

SPEAKER_113: photos and he will tell you why he took no photos he covered those bodies so no one would see yeah and so it's traumatic and and and that's why israel is documenting this or not israel actually i should say it someone in israel is documenting this but again no matter what else you believe i love the

SPEAKER_131: way you said it jason you can absolutely believe i absolutely believe that every single person

SPEAKER_10: particularly the private citizens not the terrorists in gaza should live in peace and harmony they they should of course get aid but they shouldn't need aid because they should have a thriving economy and a state that's their own that doesn't mean sexual violence didn't happen because it is clear it

SPEAKER_01: did and the denial is crazy i was in france i did a i took some of the witnesses to to different parliaments including in the french parliament and um maurice levy hosted this beautiful lunch for us

SPEAKER_113: and there were all the people who work in civil society and this woman stood up at this lunch and she stood up and she said i'm french i'm not jewish i run a non-profit that works on sexual violence and conflict i've done this work for 30 years no one's ever questioned my work ever until now and she said

SPEAKER_01: i think it's anti-semitism you look at that new york times article and i know there's different views of the new york times i'm not defending the paper but that article written by jeff gettleman and others he has covered sexual violence for decades he won a pulitzer for his coverage of this in somalia a pulitzer i did a search no one's ever questioned it before something is going on here and it is a combination of narratives and polarization and anti-semitism which is getting us to a place

SPEAKER_120: where we lose yeah sorry let's explore that for a second so when you see the videos what you see

Chamath Palihapitiya: are young people but you see a lot of young women and many of the leaders of these of these movements on campuses now the spokespeople are women the leadership seems mostly to be women do you have a reaction to that do you have a thought on that when you see these folks and that that they should be closer to this realization maybe than a man could theoretically overlook it or try to block it out but it's actually the leadership of these organizations tend to be mostly women-led and they're basically like let's keep going and it's about this resistance

SPEAKER_01: how do you react to that when you see that it really depends what i see like when i see someone peacefully protesting and saying free palestine sure why not that's that's good i want free palestine when i see people protesting and saying you know we need peace on all sides we need a ceasefire of course we need we need a permanent ceasefire that lasts i'm for that ready when i see people saying the rapes didn't happen that's unacceptable you know you saw a student at colombia i saw it in video i'm sure

SPEAKER_10: you did too screaming at a jewish kid go back to poland right or october 7th is going to happen to you over and over that's not okay and so it really depends what they're saying but again i'm hoping

SPEAKER_01: people watch this documentary so they can see it for their own eyes i'm hoping people wake up and realize that they are capable of holding two thoughts at the same time they just are what's going

SPEAKER_73: to happen at harvard what's going to happen at the ivy leagues i don't know what's going to happen

SPEAKER_113: at any of these schools but i'll tell you i'm a parent of college age kids you know i've got a kid who was in college for a year i've got a kid going off this year in the fall colleges have a

SPEAKER_01: responsibility to keep our kids safe full stop and protect them from hate full stop and they have the

SPEAKER_113: ability to do this they have the ability to do this it's up to them do you think colombia has done a

SPEAKER_215: good job well if you were president of harvard what would you have done differently shall

SPEAKER_113: i'm not close enough it's all merging together in my mind i don't know exactly which protest

SPEAKER_01: that happened at which schools but here's here's what i would do yeah i would have very clear rules which by the way all the schools have it's a question of enforcing them right the schools that are letting this happen are not enforcing their own rules schools are actually i think look free and

SPEAKER_10: open dialogue is important college is the place you should go to talk about the issues from all sides

SPEAKER_113: to have thoughtful conversations to have deep conversations even maybe to have angry conversations

SPEAKER_00: yeah i went to berkeley it wasn't lunch without a protest i mean that's like the daily thing you do there you know you go grab a sandwich and you go protest you go back to class like that was great

SPEAKER_01: and i bet you had thoughtful conversations because that's what's made you you look how look how complex look at your views david you're able to articulate multiply complex views and i bet some of that was from berkeley where you probably sat with your fellow students and talked to them right

SPEAKER_146: that's not what's happening i think things are very different yeah i think things are very different

SPEAKER_134: these colleges have rules some of the colleges they're most colleges have a rule that you can't

SPEAKER_113: protest in the president's office there are colleges where the faculty and administration when people are protesting in the president's office they're serving them food there are colleges that say

SPEAKER_108: you're not allowed to protest here go outside but if you feel if you feel deep down in your heart that

SPEAKER_73: it's a matter of life or death don't you feel justified that having an encampment setting up a tent living there showing that that degree of conviction is necessary because you're saving lives versus hey i think something is a good idea let me go protest for an hour during lunch and then i'll

SPEAKER_00: leave it's never going to move the needle the question i'm asking as a young person is how do i move the needle and there's not a lot of ways that people feel empowered to move the needle so it seems

SPEAKER_73: rational to me to some degree that they want to go into these encampments and they want to do something strong and show their conviction but again i think that there's a question on how much truth is anyone willing to see how much are folks willing to embrace the other side how much are they willing to listen i don't i see very little listening very little dialogue going on because then you put up a list of demands that are unmeetable and you know you deny anyone to have a conversation and you deny listening to the other side and you take this hardened view that doesn't allow for progress and i think it's the hardened views on all sides that's limiting progress entirely unfortunately the youth have been subsumed by this and it's really frustrating to see because i worry about what that leads to i

Chamath Palihapitiya: think it's not necessarily these meaning i think you're seeing it in some very specific places that cater to a very specific kind of youth you see them at columbia harvard there are these specific berkeley ucla that are bastions of privileged kids for the most part these are extremely elite institutions that typically allow in kids that have been coached their entire lives to get into those schools and i think that they're coming there with a lack of fulfillment and it reminds me at some level of how people reacted to occupy wall street meaning there were a whole bunch of young people there

SPEAKER_120: that probably didn't even know what the whole occupy wall street movement was about

SPEAKER_225: yeah well they said themselves it was a platform for whatever your grievance was that was their

David Friedberg: stated mission yeah and i think what they found a decade and a half ago or so was community in this

Chamath Palihapitiya: weird way yes right the physical interaction of other people where you had this intimacy around a thing i'm not condoning occupy wall street just like i'm not condoning what's happening on campuses but i think psychologically what kids are looking for is that level of attachment and to your point david something that they can feel strongly about and i think they end up getting to the age of 18 and 19 not having felt strongly about anything because they were working on playing nine sports and 14 instruments and all this other to go to these schools and then they get there and they feel a little empty and sometimes negative things can fill the void what i was going to say is i think the

SPEAKER_01: the answer lies in what you're in what we're saying david you started out by saying how are we going to get to progress well screaming at each other is not going to get to progress i don't have an answer for peace in the middle east but we're you know universities play roles in getting there thoughtful hard conversations let's look at the real history let's look at who the leadership could be let's look at what kind of leaders we need on both sides let's look at what the international community could be doing those answers could come out of university some of those college students if they weren't reading five things they don't understand could help us get there and i think these protests are getting in the way of the thoughtful dialogue and i honestly think part of what happens with cancel culture i don't want to listen to another view on all sides really why don't you say i want to listen my friend adam grant wrote a great book called think again i wish everyone in the whole world would read that damn book think again think again means you like might not be right about everything think again means you need to like listen to the other side

SPEAKER_113: we're never going to get there without that kind of thoughtful dialogue but yeah and that's a that's

SPEAKER_67: exactly where i wanted to go with the churn which is if you if you steal man if you look at their perspective and you look at the beauty of feminism and femininity um and you wrote a book lean in and

SPEAKER_62: you are an expert on this and having compassion for people who are suffering is absolutely beautiful it is the best of humanity and and i think it's the best of femininity and women is that they have this incredible gift of empathy that as men maybe we we are so far behind and so it does not surprise me that women lead these organizations when they see suffering and if you see children suffering women are in a unique position in their life experience to understand the value of children of family and of suffering and you know i can understand an impressionable young person seeing the videos coming out of gaza of a baby dying in a bombing and collateral damage and being devastated and saying you

SPEAKER_67: know what i have to fight for these poor children it is completely noble in their mind in fact it might be noble uh i mean it's in to to fight for peace and so you know i can understand their their positions and i don't actually disagree with them but then you you start looking at the reality of getting the hostages back and if this was an american situation and we actually have a corollary 9-11 we didn't go to afghanistan to get hostages we went there to get retribution so

SPEAKER_29: if america went there to eliminate this threat and we also took out another country just for good measure that wasn't even involved in it you know it's such a complex issue and we're in the fog of war i think everybody pausing for a second here and just remember how confusing it was after 9-11 how confusing it was and we had to figure out wait a second these were saudis these were this radical group the splinter group it takes a while to figure out what's going on here and i i do think on these campuses they should allow them to protest but there's outside agitators that seems to me to be completely unacceptable to have 40 50 six-year-old lifetime agitators on these campuses

SPEAKER_62: allow these kids to to protest but to chase jewish kids around the campus and then surround them and threaten them in 2024 i i mean i i i can't understand what's happening and how how we got how could an administration cheryl allow students to threaten other students and not

SPEAKER_234: immediately snap a snap decision it's a decision you just said it it's a decision it is a decision

SPEAKER_62: absolutely expelled if a jewish a set of jewish students surrounded a palestinian student an islamic student a muslim and chanted at them about what happened october 7th and made them feel threatened i expel them as well there's just some basic basic rules of the game they're not enforcing it's absolutely infuriating but i just want to make sure i steal them on that other side and you did

SPEAKER_67: you know i think very eloquently say you also agree with the suffering in palestine needs to end

SPEAKER_10: i know we're out of time can i say one thing i really want to say 10 things cheryl as much as you like you have time i really want to thank you all for this because two things happened in the last

SPEAKER_113: hour with you one is that you were really passionate against this sexual assault and really clear and as much as we need women to believe this we need male and male leaders and so your voices like i could feel the passion on this and i'm really grateful because that that gives me hope like i am it's such a dark moment it's such a dark moment for democracy it's such a dark moment for jews it's such a dark moment for women but this really gave me hope and the second is um your tears for

SPEAKER_141: dave thanks it's been nine years a lot of we've moved on you have friends um i have a wonderful life that i'm so grateful for um but the world's still lost a really really really special person

SPEAKER_142: and i i can see how much that means i knew this but there there are very few things

SPEAKER_240: thank you as you grow older that you realize in life that matters and thank you um friends are that's it it's just friends you know at the end of the day chamath we're family and your friends

SPEAKER_245: that's all you have i i i think about dave frequently and um i just think at the end of the

SPEAKER_249: your life what you have is but a collection of memories and the memories we have with dave the

SPEAKER_186: laughter the joy the fake chamath his wit his insights you know we would be sitting at that

SPEAKER_62: poker table and it was like we're all like 15 16 year olds and we got this big brother who's 20 and you know we'd be bickering and laughing whatever he'd come in and say hey guys

SPEAKER_186: how about this and this so chamath and i would be drawing each other he'd say hey guys let's calm

SPEAKER_141: it down a little bit thank you let's have a good time whatever thank you guys so much i have to go to my board meeting yeah this was this was like as deeply meaningful as it could have been seriously

SPEAKER_101: we didn't get to talk about anything business i i i i beg you to come back to the either come to the

SPEAKER_226: summit and be one more short in video we just need to know it's a hard pivot to this also what's your view

SPEAKER_262: on crypto uh if you were to change any paragraph of the leaning book we'll save all this for this

SPEAKER_263: time a really big hug thank you guys and thank you for watching thank you thank you wow i need to

SPEAKER_266: take a deep breath here chamath freeberg this was um super emotional for me i didn't know if i could

SPEAKER_245: do it i'll be honest i have so many emotions chamath about dave i have so many feelings about this

Chamath Palihapitiya: situation when i watched the documentary i thought the most important thing is there are these you said it jason in the fog of war there are things that happen that are just wholly unacceptable i remember when i was getting older and i was curious why did my family not go back to sri lanka and what do the tamils which is a small minority hindu minority in the majority buddhist population why did they feel so out of sorts and we were part of the buddhist majority and when you insert yourself into that struggle and understand where they're coming from it's jarring because you have to really like re-underwrite okay what are we fighting for what are they fighting for and the most important thing that i got to is what is allowed because then you would see things and the unfortunate part of sri lanka sri lanka's history was in the final parts of the war that ended it there were some incredible atrocities that were committed and you know the united nations and international court system tried to find justice for the tamil minority population in what happened in those final hours of that war i i don't think that they did for for the most part but it's just to show you that these things leave deep wounds that frankly can be reopened in a moment so it's very important that i think these things are and i hate to say it so unemotionally but documented absolutely absolutely for those that that don't even understand the holocaust if you go to the holocaust museum if you're lucky enough to do it in israel i would encourage you to do it but even in washington you know the totality of what happened there's there's certain places that document these important moments in history and if and if this is one of those moments to the israeli people i just encourage them please make sure that you minimize the missing disinformation as complicated as that may be to do

SPEAKER_293: it is incredibly important so that you can create and doing so does not dissolve empathy for the other

SPEAKER_00: side's cause or for the other side's motivations or objectives having empathy for the circumstances that happened here is the equivalent of having empathy for the plight of the palestinian people and what they're dealing with today following october 7th and i think that we need to recognize that both things can be true

Chamath Palihapitiya: we can have empathy for both sides yeah and by the way humans have a way of making decisions which i think is pretty predictable which is once you have a point of view there are things that you believe are facts and then there's all this other stuff that you have degrees in which you believe that are essentially conjecture the most important thing in really important debates is to move something from that gray zone into the box of facts so to speak and that is the only way that causes people to re underwrite their principle views it doesn't matter what topic we're talking about so the more that we're able to document and actually make these things unambiguous i think it actually has a really important role to play in how these young people view what it is that they're a part of i'm totally pro protesting i'm totally in support of you know standing up for the things that you believe in

SPEAKER_281: i'm not in support of overlooking atrocities i mean it's it's well said chamath and you know

SPEAKER_29: the response i can tell you to you know this this episode and the response i got for just tweeting you know hey this is important documentary to watch is you know the what about it badism the other side and documenting what's happening in gaza and you know we we have this search for truth right now which is very difficult because institutions have a lot of self-inflicted wounds we live in an age of conspiracy theory you know and and there are reports of crisis actors you know in gaza creating fake deaths and fake videos so you know now you have one side saying oh the the people of palestine or hamas are the numbers aren't correct of the number of people died the the suffering is not correct these images aren't correct the fog of war is going to be thick for a while here folks and it's going to take us a while and shaman's exactly right you got to document this you got to get to some ground truth you got to get to some common facts so we can all objectively look at those common facts and you know listen um it's a shame david sacks couldn't make it today but i would have really is really missed here because you know we have that same thing with the the the war in ukraine and we it's very hard for us in this current media landscape where we're quoting from news sources and

SPEAKER_245: anonymous twitter accounts fake videos it's going to get worse with ai it's going to be harder and harder to find the truth and this is where your own personal morality ethics and i'm not sure who

SPEAKER_67: brought this up during our talk because i'm emotionally spent i got to be honest um it's a little hard for me to collect myself here but man you know you you have to have some basic moral principles here children women rape sexual assault we we all can agree on this you said this in the week after october 7 freeberg you had a very powerful moment on the show that you don't want to have to decide between between october 7 being horrific and children dying in gaza being horrific and you don't

SPEAKER_62: want to have to be painted with one side or the other you want to believe as a moral person that all suffering needs to end and we collectively as a species in 2024 on this planet can work together

SPEAKER_67: to to just agree that certain things should never happen and and to try to resolve these horrible conflicts i'm i'm so spent right now and it was just very difficult for me to watch that documentary

SPEAKER_29: i don't know where we go from here gentlemen i i'm fine ending the show here we're taking a 10 minute

SPEAKER_03: break and then maybe doing one or two new stories take a break we'll come back let's take five ten

SPEAKER_245: minutes all right everybody welcome back to the program yep it's not easy to do a pivot here but we collected ourselves took a deep breath and you've all been asking for a science corner and so there's a really important story that freeberg has been educating us about on the group chat there's a startup that just open sourced an ai gene editor yes you heard that right open source gene editor powered by ai it's called profluent bio am i correct profluent uh yeah berkeley based startup profluent

SPEAKER_03: bio great have we talked about crispr and gene editing before on the show or no i think we have mentioned

SPEAKER_29: it it would be good as a primer for you to just explain from first principles what is crispr why it's

SPEAKER_73: important and then get into this so there's debate around who discovered crispr cast systems first and

SPEAKER_281: found their application but but generally side are you on the jennifer dudon aside or the

SPEAKER_00: mit city i'm an open source guy which is why i'm excited about this topic today because i don't give a i think things that are in nature are in nature and i don't think you should be able to pat i don't

SPEAKER_03: think you should be able to patent stuff that you discover in nature so okay let's step back for a

SPEAKER_225: second freeberg explain what crispr is to somebody who's heard the term but doesn't actually know

SPEAKER_129: in your unique ability to explain science yeah so crispr cas crispr cas cas cas proteins

SPEAKER_00: are proteins that can go in to a cell and they have what's called a guide rna little piece of rna attached to them that allows that protein to find its way to a specific point in dna in that cell in the nucleus of that cell and when that protein hits that specific location it cuts it like scissors and so the protein finds the part of the dna it's looking to cut attaches itself cuts the dna and a cut is made and so this capability was discovered actually in bacteria and it was an evolved system that bacteria developed to actually protect themselves from viruses so the crispr cas complex emerged through evolution where bacteria started to figure out that they could cut up viral dna so they made these proteins these proteins would attach to viral dna and destroy the viruses that came into the the uh the bacteria cells so scientists arguably from harvard from berkeley and from other places around the world in the early 2010s started to do research and identified ways that we could leverage these proteins that we were discovering in nature to do targeted dna editing in human cells and plant cells and other cells so rather than them just being used as a defense mechanism by bacteria that we could harness these proteins and make them useful to go in and do specific gene editing now why would we want to do gene editing gene editing if done precisely enough and efficiently enough would allow us to go in and fix genetic diseases in humans for example it would allow us to take t cells and reprogram them to go and attack cancer cells back in the human body it would allow us in the case of agriculture which i'm very close to and what i work on every day to figure out ways to make specific changes to the genes of a plant to make that plant grow in higher yield or change itself to be disease resistant or drought

SPEAKER_73: resistant or other features that might be helpful to agriculture and to humanity so gene editing became

SPEAKER_00: this amazing toolkit that emerged around 2012 2013 and just blew up on the market and the main original foundational patents which are now mostly held after a lot of litigation by the broad institute which is you know there's this kind of joint patent arrangement with the broad and mit and harvard are being used in medical applications are being used in agriculture applications they're being used in all these different tools but they're patented there's royalties there's fees all this stuff and in the years that followed many other cast proteins started to get discovered all these different types of proteins were discovered and the reason you want to use different proteins is you want to improve the efficiency so how frequently or how good are these proteins at editing the cell and eliminate off target effects meaning the protein isn't making cuts or making changes to other parts of the dna that you don't want it to so there's been this search underway for the last decade for new cast proteins and developing new cast proteins and dozens have been discovered people are trying to patent them people are trying to make them do special things they can only change one letter all these different tools are emerging so we went from having absolutely no ability to do gene editing just over a decade ago to suddenly having all of these different tools that could do gene editing really efficiently really cheaply really affordably really scalably and more precisely so this company profluent they actually used an ai model what they call a protein language model to create and train an entirely new library of cast proteins that do not exist in nature today so they basically took 26 terabases 26 trillion letters of assembled genomes and metagenomes this is from other from various species and start to simulate new cast proteins that could be useful to replace the ones that are on the market today or improvements on what's in the market today and they found one that they called open crispr one and they made it publicly available under an open source license so any startup any research lab any individual any scientist can use this particular cast protein to go in and make edits without having to deal with patents and ip and claims on who owns what that they found in nature and this particular protein that they identified is 400 mutations away from anything that they've seen in nature so basically the ai model started to learn what sequence of dna generated what structure of protein that was really good at being a gene editor and they started to discover and iterate on building new ones and the ai started to predict hey this would be a good gene editor this would be a good gene editor and they came up with dozens of new gene editing molecules that don't exist in nature today they identified one that they then sequenced they created it they put in a lab they tested it and it turned out to be much better than cas9 so they use an ai model to find a new guide rna to find a new cast protein so the guide rna is just rna that's like a that's like the key think about a crispr cas system has two components one is the cas protein that's the giant protein that goes in and cuts dna and it attached to it is what's called a guide rna that guide rna is the specific letters and those specific letters are like a key in a lock they go attached to a particular part of the dna and then that giant protein cuts in that exact spot and so what they what everyone's been working on is new proteins and they've been trying to find new cast proteins that aren't going to go do off-target cutting they aren't going to make mistakes that are going to be perfect at making the exact cut you want to make so everyone's always trying to improve the efficiency and reduce the off-target effects of these systems and so what they did is they tried to create a new protein that doesn't exist by learning from all of these other cast proteins that exist in nature today and identifying the three-dimensional structure of them and allow the model to predict a cast protein that might actually be better than anything that's found so it

SPEAKER_215: works around every single existing patent well that's going to be tested in the courts later

SPEAKER_00: i'm sure but they open sourced it so they they're not claiming any ip on it they're not making any claims on it with the patent office and they're saying look it's free and available i'm on the same

Chamath Palihapitiya: page as you if this is this this was occurring billions of years ago and it just took us billions of years to actually observe it occurring naturally in nature it's absolutely ridiculous that a patent would be granted on that now the implementation of that in a commercial use case that's fine

SPEAKER_298: yeah this is happening i guess in the psychedelic space with psilocybin mdma and some of those

SPEAKER_226: that's such a leap no no i'm just saying there are drug companies now that are realizing the efficacy at johns hopkins stanford where they're doing these and then they're trying to figure out how do we take something that's occurring naturally psilocybin in mushrooms referred to colloquially as magic mushrooms and then how how do we get our how do we bear hug this so that we can patent it how can we own the implementation of it as you're saying and so there it's great it's fascinating to me taking

SPEAKER_00: nature and trying to patent nature right there's a simple truth to all this which is every single life sciences lab on earth is using this technology today it has absolutely revolutionized life sciences it has changed everything it has reset the trajectory of human health of agriculture and of industrial biotechnology those are the three major markets where gene editing is useful it is changing everything and so it is already a ubiquitous tool we basically created software engineering for dna for life with this capability and so this system that these guys just published on i think is a really wonderful manifestation of how ai is allowing us to open source and create improved tools

SPEAKER_148: and uh it's uh it's really important for humanity and so i think it's just great to see happen yeah okay

SPEAKER_324: two questions for my baby brother with the with the science brain number one the llms here how

SPEAKER_29: maybe you speak to the efficacy of llms when applied to this vertical because it's a constrained data set i believe so it feels to me analogous to code whereas like human language images videos you know building an llm around them you have like pretty large corpus it seems to be code is constrained a video game is constrained and of course maybe maybe gene editing is constrained i'll let you answer that and the llm component here and then maybe you could speak to what this will do to the startup community being able to leverage this open source tool have have startups started to pop up around this yet is there a dot org dot com kind of equivalent here where you have wordpress.org open source version of wordpress wordpress.com the hosted paid version and are we going to see a bunch of dot com versions of this

SPEAKER_00: and different startups take it whichever way you like the two questions i'm not super familiar i've met the profluent guys a couple times i'm not super familiar with what their business models going to be but i hate that startups are worried or feel encumbered by

SPEAKER_73: the patent landscape associated with crispr cast systems and that they can't build novel products

SPEAKER_327: and move humanity forward okay so it's a blocker for humanity i'm hopeful that we do see more of

SPEAKER_73: these open source like tools become available and ubiquitous it's almost the equivalent of having linux where everyone can now you know as an operating system or html being you know standard uh code i don't know if you remember to use um before html5 a lot of people were using macro media uh flash

SPEAKER_00: oh of course there's a huge blocker yeah it was a huge blocker so you had to pay the license fee to to create flash content and then you had to i don't know if they sold consumer plugins well yeah and

SPEAKER_226: then you could get rug pulled right they could change their mind and they were trying to make money on

SPEAKER_330: both sides and so in order to show microsoft did active x to try to be a blocker and own the open

SPEAKER_00: source so in order to put yeah in order to put multimedia on the internet you have used to have to pay license fees and then html5 basically created multimedia capabilities native to the html which is open source and so everyone could do it and i think that it's really important that we see that

SPEAKER_73: happening with gene editing i think all the applications of gene editing should be patentable and protectable but the core tools are so powerful and important that i think it's very difficult and hard to see how we are accelerating humanity's progress by keeping these things at bay and i'm

SPEAKER_00: it's really great to see open source tools like this hit the market okay um and i think it's really

SPEAKER_318: important and i think it's really amazing tell me about the ai create them yeah yeah tell me about the llm side here the large language model being built around this data how how what's the efficacy of that

SPEAKER_29: going to be like and it is my analogy of a constrained data set meaning it will be able to perform at a higher level like we see with code and then co-pilots for code well they created their their own llm they

SPEAKER_73: call it a protein language model so they took all of this genome data that is generally very publicly available there's a lot of the stuff published in open genome databases you can download it ingest it and

SPEAKER_00: use it for whatever purposes you want as a life sciences researcher so they took 26 trillion base pairs of data and basically used that to train their model and then using that trained model they then started to run inference on it to say come up with cast systems that are novel that could theoretically

SPEAKER_73: have efficacy greater than what we see in nature with the natural cast systems and then the model started to output all of these novel proteins then they started to test them and they found that this one worked really really well after testing in the lab so actually here's a great image so here you can

SPEAKER_00: see basically in training the model so it's it's a little bit technically complicated what they did in the steps to generate this system but ultimately the system yielded something that they could then

SPEAKER_73: create put in a lab environment and in the lab environment test how well it worked and what they showed was that it actually worked better than cast 9 which is the primary gene editing protein use today so you know pretty powerful set of steps and all unlocked by again freely available data and building

SPEAKER_104: their own model and now ultimately open sourcing the best output of it okay amazing job if you missed any

SPEAKER_245: of those graphics you're listening to the podcast go to youtube and search for all in podcasts if you want to see those graphics all right gentlemen this has been another amazing episode of the all in podcast for your sultan of science david freeberg the chairman dictator uh and david sachs who could make it today i am the world's greatest moderator rest in power dave goldberg goldie we love you we miss you and we'll

SPEAKER_352: see you all next time on the all in podcast love you boys