SPEAKER_00: welcome to sunday get your coffee get your latte have a bagel relax put your put your airpods in your google pixel buds your air max pro plus over the ear whatever jams whatever you're into and relax you're into and enjoy vc sunday school we're going to talk about raising a fund in public

Jason Calacanis: 506c is our topic today yep if you are a fund manager a brand new vc i'm just trying to understand how the lp relationship works if you're a potential lp this is a super interesting

SPEAKER_00: conversation and of course uh it's sunday so it's this week in climate startups uh molly is going to interview the founder and chief scientist of brilliant planet what do they do molly give

Jason Calacanis: people yeah this is so interesting this is a company that is figuring out how to grow algae in ponds they use seawater to create the perfect conditions for big algae blooms not the dangerous kind but big algae blooms which are evidently massively more efficient at sequestering carbon than trees so it sequesters carbon they dry out the algae they bury it and sequester all this carbon gigatons by the way they're literally talking about two gigatons of carbon which is a massive scale once they get there they've raised 25 million dollars and they're gonna make money by turning all of that

SPEAKER_09: into high quality carbon offsets and selling it on the open market and in between the two segments we

SPEAKER_10: have a big conversation about esg and like you do climate denial it's like a little 20 minute detour

SPEAKER_11: but you're gonna love it it's gonna be a great show it is stick with us this week in startups is brought

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SPEAKER_16: masterclass at masterclass.com slash startups rise and grind it's sunday it's time to learn and one of

SPEAKER_18: the things that you're going to get to learn about is we're raising our fourth fund at launch and i can say

SPEAKER_19: that because we're doing a public raise as opposed to a private raise so i guess that was your question

Jason Calacanis: for this week was yeah pretty much because when funds talk about funds it is super secrety and this was something that i always wondered about as a journalist which is like why can't you tell me how much money you raised or who you raised from right nobody talks about their lps nobody talks about how much they raise you are not allowed to say that you're gonna raise and evidently now and we've talked about this of course on uh asked on the angel podcast with first-time fund managers and the different ways you can raise this 506b and 506c yeah but i thought it would be really useful especially since we're about to start doing it yeah to talk about how this all works and why it was so secrety before so the

SPEAKER_25: whole time i was a journalist as well you know i had at some point fred wilson and jerry clone i was

SPEAKER_27: interviewing they're like oh and i was like oh i hear you're raising for the like to turn the microphone off and we like really panicked like we can't talk about that because if we do then you have

SPEAKER_25: to certify that everybody in your fund is in fact a qualified purchaser or an accredited investor so

SPEAKER_29: this is this general solicitation rule it's um regulation d of section four of the securities act

SPEAKER_31: now if you're doing a fund or whatever don't take my advice here i'm just going to talk about it in general terms you have to have a lawyer you have to do this stuff right but basically there's two designations 506b 506c and if you google this you'll find tons of documents when you do a 506b you can raise an unlimited amount from up to 2 000 qualified purchasers qualified purchasers are people with a high net worth millions of dollars but you cannot raise in public you can't mention a tweet

SPEAKER_33: about your raise um and the reason for this is to protect uh people from uh making investments in

SPEAKER_25: risky vehicles like we've talked about like crypto and all that kind of stuff and also uh people can

SPEAKER_30: self-certify that they are what they say they are an accredited investor etc that's my basic understanding of why they created the why behind this well that leaves the 506c which is general

SPEAKER_25: solicitation this means you can raise in public you can tweet about it um now you can't tweet about your performance or future looking things there's still other rules and you can still have an unlimited amount of these qualified purchasers and you can raise up to 10 million from 250 accredited investors

SPEAKER_00: you might want to keep that to 230 in case people change the names of their entities which happen sometimes they have like a family trust or an individual or a divorce happens or they transfer

SPEAKER_25: the ownership anyway long story short i decided after seeing so many people uh doing public raises that i would for launch fund four uh instead of having to ask people hey you know my friends who have funds can you introduce me some of your lps i'll just say it here on the pod we're raising launch fund four right and if anybody would like to come to a meeting about that just email me and uh i'll get

SPEAKER_00: you invited to a presentation where i talk about our fund and our plans for launch fund four and maybe

SPEAKER_33: what the results of the first 10 years of my angel uh first 10 years of my fund investments have done

Jason Calacanis: so okay so let me break this down a little bit more so 506b previously this is the super secret one and in this in that case you could not raise in public you could not mention it you could not tweet about it and you could only raise from qualified purchasers and is that right investors but they would self

SPEAKER_45: certify um yeah and then which means what's the difference between a qualified purchaser is like

Jason Calacanis: a higher income level qualified purchasers are like i think it's five million five million yeah five million in investable assets the notice took this up and then okay so 506c general solicitation that was in was that introduced with that big kind of uh set of obama yeah i think it's always existed the number

SPEAKER_29: of people you can have in the funds has changed around a little bit but the key thing here is

SPEAKER_31: they have to send you a note or go through a service that says i am in fact a qualified purchaser i am in fact an accredited investor you can't just take their word for it so it does create a little extra work for everybody okay the benefit you get i think is huge uh which is i can publicly talk that hey we're raising launch fund four some of you listen to this podcast they listen to all in they follow me on twitter now they know i'm doing this right and they can say hey you know what i i would like to be in your fund uh i would like to go on that adventure with you can i come hear about your vision for launch fund four and so you know there are some pitfalls here of course yeah good do that because

Jason Calacanis: i was gonna say it seems like everybody would just do this but there must be some reasons why you

SPEAKER_62: wouldn't want to other than the certification process which is probably pretty onerous somewhat

SPEAKER_61: it's i i don't think it's super onerous but it is you know the people who operate the fund you know

SPEAKER_25: people who work for our company who have to do this now they have to have three four five hundred people certified so yeah if that takes an extra of an hour each it could create 400 hours of work it seems like a lot for a venture fund you know worth 50 million 100 million 200 million dollars you know

SPEAKER_28: who cares that that's uh that's cost of doing business in my mind but yeah there might be

SPEAKER_27: like many things in life you know it might be a lot of work but not for me and you know for

SPEAKER_25: operations people and so that's always one of my favorite lines people are like that's going to be a lot of work and i always go not for me which you know is that to be your favorite line oh i love it i think it's hilarious it's a great awesome that's like a dad ceo joke um but you know if you are uh you you know a chef at a restaurant and you're like i would like to have each of the potatoes cut a certain way and be a certain exact size um and people are like well that's a lot of work and i'm like not for me and that's going to make the plate look really good that they're all symmetrical you

SPEAKER_57: know that's maybe more people are going to come here and we're all going to get paid more to be clear like there's a reason we're not just being there's a reason to do it yes and so the reason for

SPEAKER_25: me is i would like to meet more lps more efficiently uh and you know i really want to meet certain

SPEAKER_31: categories of lps like people i think are doing great things in the world like i would love to have them you know um an endowment working on cancer research or something like that both my parents are cancer survivors so i want to be able to do meaningful work for lps you know if we're going to triple or quadruple hopefully you know hopefully we get some good return again promise anything obviously you do the best you can but if you're going to put all that work in with that goal you would like it to be for people who are going to put it to good use not just to buy

SPEAKER_33: another ferrari or you know a fifth home so yeah not that i mind you don't have a problem ferraris or

SPEAKER_00: fifth homes uh so the door is open to all well the door is open to all to hear the pitch and meet us if they're an accredited investor or qualified purchaser now you really don't want a bunch of randos

SPEAKER_25: in business with you because they could cause downstream problems so you'll have people who are like maybe it's their first venture fund and so i try to be very open about these things that's the whole point of the syndicate hey you know if you don't know angel investing there's this book angel and we do a course angel university so i like to educate people and teach them as much as we've learned and i'm very open to new people being involved in stuff we do a lot of other people are like i don't want new lps i'm on my seventh fund i'm benchmark i'm benchmark famously had the same lps for

SPEAKER_00: every fund since the second i think and they only had one person rotate out during a down market that person didn't uh pony up for the down market fund and they didn't invite them back for the five subsequent funds like really disastrous uh premise story yeah uh and so when you get going and you have the big lps you know and they're putting in 50 or 25 million or 10 million or 100 million your fund kind of gets filled up you built the relationship with gale or harvard or moral sloan kettering or whatever college or institution is for foundation they just have earmarked 10 of their endowment for venture and you're part of their 10 and so they just kind of go along with you

SPEAKER_90: all right everybody on the phone today is open phones founder darina coolia welcome to the program darina thanks jason great to be here what about the situation where you have you know a phone number that's a common number so customer support number or maybe you wanted people to just be able to call you and generally talk to the sales team how do you handle that when you have a group number a shared

SPEAKER_91: number that's actually one of the super unique things about the way we've built open phone is

SPEAKER_93: that we allow you to to have a shared number for your team first of all when you call into that shared number you can set round robin if if that's applicable or by default everyone's phone would ring the first person to pick it up will be able to have a like that for customer support wow exactly exactly and also if if i'm on a call with a customer i don't want to be interrupted there are other people who can who can pick up new calls coming in but i also really think what's very cool is that this workflow works as well for text messages and not only can you just like share responsibility for responding to text but you can also use this as a training exercise because the way that it works is that if i am a customer support rep there is a text message from a customer i don't know how to answer i can actually tag my teammates privately on that conversation and get help

SPEAKER_90: and say hey is this okay to say or how would you respond okay everybody twist listeners can get 20 off any plan for their first six months at open phone just go to open phone.com slash twist if you got an existing number they'll put it right over for free head to o-p-e-n-p-h-o-n-e.com slash twist

SPEAKER_00: today for 20 off a lot of people don't want to deal with ever meeting new lps and so when you know these top funds it's like most people can't get into them the idea that you could get into sequoias

SPEAKER_33: fund or a benchmark fund like yeah maybe 15 years ago you could have but you can't now uh and so you

SPEAKER_43: know because it's a relationship too right for people who don't understand like your lps are your

SPEAKER_25: bosses that's your board they are your partners uh and then if it's a big check and they're 20 of

SPEAKER_31: your fund yeah it could feel more like they're your bosses i suppose especially if you have a giant lp like 50 that's why the advice i got from a lot of my mentors was nobody should have more than 10 of your fund uh no more than five percent so if you have a hundred million dollar fund the biggest check you should take is five or ten i think that's not very practical but you know ideally then you've got

SPEAKER_00: this um diversification so if anyone or two people don't come in you don't have to replace a 25 million dollar check you had to replace a five million dollar check a little bit easier to do

SPEAKER_25: right in my case it might wind up with too many investors we already have too many accredited investors so we can have 2 000 of those qualified we only have 250 of the credits we're going to fill that up pretty quickly instantly in fact so we'll probably like last time have to have a bit of a

SPEAKER_00: lottery for you know people put their request in you know they put in a 50k check or 100k check

SPEAKER_29: we'll come up with some size and that 10 million will fill up real quick but you see a lot of people mac were you on the call with mac when we interviewed him no i listened to it though oh you listen to it

SPEAKER_00: yeah so mac met me and i think i'm an lp max fund i i lp'd maybe three or four of these funds and i just put in 10 or 25k checks just to be supportive and build relationships with people who are publicly raising i would not have known about it right i mean i do get people emailing me please don't email me i i do like one new fund a year uh and i got like i got like two of those for you if you want no more

SPEAKER_107: please i gotta put it into our fund you know i'm gonna be on the hook for putting a lot of money into

Jason Calacanis: our funds so i have a question about that too i'm seeking a bonus question somebody uh emailed the other day and asked me a question or i was talking to a friend or something and said like what who said what is your capital requirement for working as a vc and i was like what are you what are you talking

SPEAKER_33: about you're not a partner yet you're a managing director well when you're a partner like you're expected to be the standard yes so they want to see skin in the game they're realistic about it

SPEAKER_00: so you know a sequoia fund you know doug leone michael moritz like maybe they're expected to put millions of dollars so there's a 300 million dollar fund they might expect the and let's say there

SPEAKER_31: were five partners in that fund they might expect those five partners to put in two million dollars each 10 million dollars so that's only you know if it's 10 million on 200 it's five percent of 10 million on 400 it's only two and a half percent but it's a big number it's a lot of cash

SPEAKER_33: to come up with you know it's it's it's it's not de minimis and then you're doing it every three years

SPEAKER_31: so you got to come up with more money with a new fund you know like these 10 million dollar micro funds you know 20 million dollar funds they might only expect they might expect nothing if it's a first-time fund manager and then over time they might expect more and so in our funds i was

SPEAKER_33: typically in the 10 million dollar funds i think i was two or three percent i'm trying to remember like so i put two or three hundred thousand dollars of my own money and so i think for you know me as a solo gp general partner with a bunch of mds and folks around me maybe one percent is what people would expect me to put in if it was five partners and eventually it will be they would expect each person to put in one percent maybe or a half a percent and they they would have some flexibility

SPEAKER_31: you know if you're mark andreason and ben horowitz and then you hire somebody who's a billionaire those three might put two million dollars each into the fund and then you have three other partners

SPEAKER_33: who are up and coming they might say 250 each but just some skin in the game to feel good about it

SPEAKER_09: nick is pointing out in our chat that apparently tiger global partners committed a billion dollars

SPEAKER_63: of their own cash to invest in seed funds that focus on backing the youngest startups

SPEAKER_00: from march of this year interesting the tiger global partners one billion of their own cash i wonder how much the whole fund would have been then

SPEAKER_62: it says tiger global partners famously put in almost their entire billion dollar fund like oh they put it in their cars they did it almost like a family office

SPEAKER_30: yeah so yeah you know and that's i think that's what chamat does he's got like a family office kind of approach right now and if you watch billions you can see

SPEAKER_00: acts go from wanting to have other people's money to having his own and vacillating back and forth

SPEAKER_25: so just some skin in the game is i think what people are looking for um and you know for me i'm really interested to see how it goes you could get you know people who are hard to work with like any other partners uh the good news is they have only a small amount in the fund you know you cannot invite them back to the next one is it hard to get there are certain things that you have to get

SPEAKER_57: lp consent on right so i would i could imagine that could also be a thing if you have lots and lots

SPEAKER_25: of lps as a result of something like this you you generally set those things up in advance and it's a three-year fund so if you were going to make any kind of change like i don't think i've made

SPEAKER_00: any changes to our our fund structure and so i would just wait to the next fund and do a different structure right got it so yeah you're better off just waiting because going and collecting a bunch of signatures and explaining it to people would be kind of hard i do think sometimes people will like i think we talked about recycling like hey the first 10 back first million dollars back we can

SPEAKER_31: recycle i think i had one fund that i was in said to me hey we want to uh we didn't add recycling we

SPEAKER_33: want to add recycling because we think it's in our best interest and all the lps best interest so yeah

SPEAKER_10: of course go ahead and do that right right because they didn't know about recycling that's why vc sunday

SPEAKER_00: school exists so that fund managers and investors can learn together here we are we're all learning

SPEAKER_129: also apparently we're raising a fund everybody apparently launch fund for coming yeah and i'll uh you

SPEAKER_00: know everybody knows my email address jason at calacanis.com you know my dm and uh well there'll be some formal announcement about it as well and i'll pin it to my twitter like hey the next three weeks i like this it's a relief i don't like not talking about stuff i'm going to basically do like three webinars where i'll just get on a zoom and people can go and you know then they can submit questions and ask questions and i'll just talk for 45 minutes or an hour about what our plans are you'll get to listen in on those and then i you know i may want to go on the road and meet a couple people um because i you know i i did meet with some of the top endowments over the first three funds but the the funds were smaller so there really wasn't room you know their minimum check size was 50 and the last one was 44 million the two funds before that were 10 and 11 uh with a little recycling so

SPEAKER_28: you know this one will go for a little bit bigger i think and we'll see how it goes you know and

SPEAKER_00: i'm going to be raising during a down market i fully expect you know i'll fill up you know all the small checks or the medium-sized checks but it might take six months perhaps even a year and this kind of a market for me to get the uh to round up the bigger checks but i'm okay with that i think my understanding is fund managers used to take a full year to two years to raise a fund so they would start raising the fund start investing people would look at the performance of the first six months of investments and then that would incent more people to come in because they get a little more insight into how you're doing as a fund so but the fund does need to close there's you know a reasonable window and i think the reasonable window is one year so i'll be kicking that off in september uh like uh and then tomorrow for a year and i'm gonna have to go get on planes and go meet people and shake hands in all kinds of cities uh and maybe even internationally and say hey here's what we're doing you want to put a chip in and be partners with us and i'm kind of excited to do it because i never sell i never go out and sell i never take

SPEAKER_29: credit for what i do i'm i'm not out there selling and this i'm excited to go out and see and

SPEAKER_00: pitch people and say hey here's what i'm doing like is this exciting to you would you like to you know put five or ten or twenty five million dollars into this fund i'm kind of excited about it

SPEAKER_43: yep i love it and raising in public i'm sorry is just on brand it's just more on brand for you

SPEAKER_145: it's the way to go i think it should be better hoping for the best listen if you're a founder or

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Jason Calacanis: slash twist all right well that's it for bc sunday school today next up of course this week in climate startups this is a fascinating one i think you're really going to love it rafael jovin is the founder and chief scientist at a company called brilliant planet and brilliant planet is using seawater to create the perfect conditions for algae blooms and it turns out that a coastal desert with a big pond with a bunch of algae in it can sequester a crap ton of carbon that's a science word and then they just dehydrate this algae and bury it and then the way that and they turn that into super high quality carbon

SPEAKER_152: credits huh and sell those yeah trees and out fascinating sequester carbon dioxide naturally yeah

SPEAKER_62: and algae apparently is way more efficient than trees ah yeah trees are slow massive amounts yeah

SPEAKER_25: fungus it's like it just grows like crazy so you basically build a pond you put algae in it

SPEAKER_57: then you bury the algae yep yeah makes sense and then you generate carbon credits and sell it i mean it's like printing money in a weird way it was it's kind of fascinating it was very fascinating well you

SPEAKER_30: know i'm feeling hopeful about the uh you know the climate stuff specifically around nuclear you know

SPEAKER_25: there's this um nuclear power plant here in northern california yeah that they're gonna name of it here it's a famous name but diablo diablo and it looks like we're gonna keep that online and then i was reading about a desalinization plant in the bay area that is now um pulling water out of like that briny bay that we have that you know the bay fills up every day from the ocean we shouldn't be even worrying

SPEAKER_39: about energy and desalinization and water energy and water should be free we should have a nuclear power

SPEAKER_29: plant next to desal plants if the energy uh if we have too much energy do a bunch of desal so if everybody's asleep in the and we can throw off more energy or the solar day and the wind days are so

SPEAKER_31: powerful we could use that you know extra capacity at the nuclear power plant to desal a bunch of water and dump it into the colorado river or send it to the uh central valley to make almonds or whatever

SPEAKER_152: we're doing with all this water so you know it feels like the solutions are here

SPEAKER_43: and we're now in this implementation phase yeah and we're starting to be in a it what i love about where we are right now and i am i am hopeful for all those same reasons is that we're also at the

Jason Calacanis: incontrovertible stage right it's just like look you can have one whole political party right now pretending that climate change doesn't exist fine honestly it does not matter because banks know it exists investors know it exists homeowners property owners one third of pakistan the right voted on this

SPEAKER_00: climate change bill right they voted in support of it some number no none did not a single republican

Jason Calacanis: voted for the latest the inflation reduction act a couple of them a few of them voted for the chips

SPEAKER_43: act which has a lot of climate provisions but that's not why they did it and right now texas and

Jason Calacanis: florida are literally out here saying if you're a big investment if you're black rock and you're invested in esg funds then we the florida pension fund will not be allowed to participate

SPEAKER_175: well that's because that they're going harder that's because of the g i think they're going harder on

Jason Calacanis: anti-climate they really are and yes it's because it's like wrapped up in social stuff and they

SPEAKER_25: think it's like why did they put environment with the social stuff it it seems like unnecessary to

Jason Calacanis: it's it's a little bit legacy i wish i could if this is going to be my least popular ted talk ever is that we do probably need to figure out how to separate the e from the s and the g like we really do because we are not going to solve racism before we have to address climate because the time to address climate is actually 100 years ago but we should start today and so we do have this like

SPEAKER_43: we have a situation where equity is becoming a blocker for some yes environmental forward momentum and it is giving republicans an excuse to be against climate change which is

Jason Calacanis: extinction level behavior right and so it just it like it's and frankly it just makes it all the more reason that you could never vote for one like it's just like look if you want us all to die and that's

SPEAKER_137: your party position that's a loser the republicans are living in states where they're being impacted by climate so they're changing their position especially when they start no water yeah and

SPEAKER_31: they're also like hey i need funds to fix these problems right so they can't anymore it's not sustainable to be anti-climate pro-business and not having to put because they're seeing the cost of

SPEAKER_29: it like you're saying the cost is apparent and so when you see the heat waves and the danger is coming

SPEAKER_31: down yeah and they want to they want to get that government money so if they say that climate isn't

SPEAKER_154: you know climate change is not real real right then how can they get the money to fix the climate stuff

SPEAKER_43: right they'll be saying that they're on like an and you know it's a disaster it's disaster funding

SPEAKER_62: over and over but what they're letting happen is the disasters that are killing people why not prevent the disaster why not right exactly anyway i think they're i think the they're getting there and

SPEAKER_06: i think the interesting thing is like it's a good lesson and they're gonna have to get there but

SPEAKER_43: they're gonna get dragged there what they what they need now isn't out right like they need an off-ramp

Jason Calacanis: to this totally unsustainable extinction level position that climate change is not real and it's not happening but you're seeing that rhetoric only increase from the gop right now there's a clear i

SPEAKER_25: think there's a clear uh middle ground here which is oh yeah um the left and the environmentalists are like we get that nuclear isn't ideal compared to renewables but we'll put that in the mix a lot more people have accepted nuclear so i feel like nuclear could be the common ground where the two sides could be like you know what we can't be you know fighting with putin and the middle east and you know opec so even people on the left i'm hearing are like yeah a little bit of natural gas as a bridge to get a nuclear to get us to sustainability i'm okay with which obviously i'm okay with like yeah sure burn a little bit extra now if we're investing in nuclear if we're investing in all these other sustainable things i'm okay with a little bit you know if it's clean you know i mean listen

SPEAKER_62: i'm all i'm saying is we're always moving they're never moving so like at some point i think they've

SPEAKER_43: moved a little bit i think they have moved zero they have moved in the other direction like i'm

Jason Calacanis: serious i am serious when i say that the the rhetoric about climate change has only gotten worse from the gop in fact there was a big article about how like 10 years ago you know what it doesn't

SPEAKER_57: matter find your own off ramp it's not my job to figure like right like you can say okay if they're gonna sit there and say it's because of the esg but not fund anything to save people's lives from

SPEAKER_188: climate change like i know they're crazy sometimes but i look at my crazy uncles as like i need to like

SPEAKER_154: sorry you know i said i would swear less i i'm i look at the crazy uncles who are like it's not doesn't exist and i'm like come on you know it exists so let's just get over there well i don't

SPEAKER_113: want to have to you know have a woman on the board of my company and i'm like okay fine yeah you know

SPEAKER_200: i get it i get it you don't want the ladies on the board i don't want to have those conversations

SPEAKER_201: anymore i do not know how we got it i did the i was talking nuclear and then it she brought up the esg thing and i wanted to know molly's position on esg i was talking algae i heard esg algae i heard

SPEAKER_31: es algae that's what they're stuck on is like don't tell me how to run my company and don't give me goals for diversity like you know sleutman said like listen we want to be diverse but we need to grow the business first and foremost so we're just going to hire the best people as quick as we can we don't we're not slowing down to make the numbers look better he was in that town nothing ever changes great great well yes and you know it's like that group of people you're gonna have to like

SPEAKER_29: give them yeah i just what else could they why would you attach governance and you know sustainability

SPEAKER_25: and environments they sound like two sides of the same coin maybe they should be together

SPEAKER_188: are they the same thing yeah they're the same that's the same thing so the es is the same

SPEAKER_62: the s stands for social s does not stand for social yeah it's environmental social and governance and

SPEAKER_09: because it's for because for a long time like there was no division in any company or any investment firm related to environmental social and the issues and the environment and just make it three different

SPEAKER_157: things e comma e period s period g period everybody can fight over those things separately like what are we going to do put religion in there too e s r g you know like we're never going to get

Jason Calacanis: anything done i see that you're uh i see that you're practicing for all in later i mean it is part

SPEAKER_25: of it you know i do have to like you do have to convince some people we're actually highly sympathetic

SPEAKER_07: to diversity but we just don't want to override merit oh my god if i start doing i cannot start

SPEAKER_152: compromising the company's mission literally i could see people interpreting that either way no yeah

Jason Calacanis: yeah you know what because it really does sound like what you're saying is uh i am assuming that women and people of color are not as skilled right like that would be the most sometimes you have to

SPEAKER_08: work harder to find people who have equal merit well here's his follow-up we need to come to a more

SPEAKER_25: moderate real place there's really no room for the hysteria and the outrage we're ceos we run companies

SPEAKER_29: we have to produce results for our employees and our partners and our investors and our customers we can't get distracted in that mission when you do you might as well hang it up and let somebody else

SPEAKER_225: do it i think you kind of doubled down on it yeah i thought that was going in a certain direction

SPEAKER_08: i'm swearing again he doubled down yeah give this in the notice he is like that's a override merit he's like i'm not going to be hiring all these dumb women just to look no you know what it has to do

Chamath Palihapitiya: with it's not well put let me put it's not well put and the more subtle point is i think there

SPEAKER_25: might be specific positions or jobs we're finding whatever kind of diversity you're looking for a gender race geographic there just might not be as many candidates back to the pipeline problem so if you were to look at graduate schools right now majority graduate schools it's majority female so to get a a male version of some degree is just much harder so you might have it go reverse

SPEAKER_43: what people expect um i mean look women are 50 of the population they're not right percent of

SPEAKER_57: developers like if you look at i know but what i'm saying is i don't have any patience for somebody being like it has to i'd have to hire somebody less qualified or it's overriding man do the work

SPEAKER_07: like do the work i know but what about the issue of pipeline i mean i this i don't know why this is

Jason Calacanis: controversial what he's saying is i don't want to find him and train him and i think what we're going to see increasingly is that companies are actually going to become the votex like companies are going to be upskilling people and so he's just like i don't have any patience for that we talked

SPEAKER_29: about this on the blueprint grow with google have you seen this molly no google obviously cares a lot about uh diversity inclusion and all the social stuff they have five free courses and they're like

SPEAKER_25: i'm guaranteeing you those five courses probably have some gender race uh challenges in terms of pipeline and they made free courses to i'm i'm going to assume uh increase the number of candidates but also increase the candidates to create more diversity so right you can do that i think that's

SPEAKER_57: like if you're doing that you can do skills matching instead of so you know if you're just

Jason Calacanis: like let's say you're filtering just by a master's degree which a lot of developer positions do like i'm not going to argue that there aren't a lot of uh that there aren't more male developers than than female developers that's 100 true however we also have all of these filters in place that exclude skilled candidates without certification so certification is what's going to probably start to go away and you're going to say like oh i've got somebody who is you know is perfectly skills matched to this and this and this but doesn't have the degree doesn't have five years experience and i might have to invest six months in training with them but i'm frank slubman and i don't want to and so then it's like oh awesome nothing ever changes nothing ever changes yeah i mean a great

SPEAKER_00: way to do it too would be to look at i don't know why this doesn't come up in these social discussions

SPEAKER_25: is what are the percentage of graduates uh you know for the last 10 years and then what are our percentages in our company right so if you were to look at mbas and then you know or look at applications right that's actually where like if you look at y combinator i think they did a really good job of saying here's the applicants to y combinator and then here's the acceptance and then they started to say like is this problem happening when we accept people and they took ownership of it which i thought was pretty brave yeah and they're like hey listen we have 20 i'm just making a number of it let's say that you know five years ago 20 10 females founded companies now it's 20 percent we're accepting six percent okay where's that other four percent going you know is it that the male pitches were that were that much better or is it that maybe the people who are evaluating

SPEAKER_30: the ideas are biased or has unconscious bias like you are gonna have to slow down is the thing and i

SPEAKER_09: say this with all due respect to general slootman like you do have to slow down you do have to be

Jason Calacanis: intentional you do have to put in a little bit of extra work and then you know what you get out of it empirically better businesses like you get better companies you have a better you can reach more customers because you have a literal diversity of thought of people being like actually you know who would buy this is this person because i'm that person and you never considered that before like the data really bears out that that's an investment work make worth making and so to act like like oh everything is going so great that i don't and i'm not saying everything isn't going great for

SPEAKER_239: snowflake it obviously is but to say like we don't have time to do that is just like okay see you in the

SPEAKER_33: dustbin nothing to see you in the dustbin well it also costs very little to nothing for a company

SPEAKER_31: at that scale and maybe they have it to create a training program right now literally the blueprint i talked about this week was about investing and drafting and developing talent and you totally professional development here and you might have noticed that there's an awful lot of females here in that room when we do it is i don't even know statistically aside from female founded firms of male founded firms i wonder on our investment team is it 60 female maybe it's 56 yeah something like that and i wonder if on male firms what the average you know of more than

SPEAKER_33: five people let's say so you get 10 10 people or more what is the you know the the average female male ratio that's interesting yeah it wasn't by design i just hired the best people

Jason Calacanis: oh you didn't have to override merit in order to get like naturally accidental totally working

SPEAKER_266: the rest so not investing if you're saying you're training people which is what we're doing right so we're training researchers into associates into principals into managing directors it's been a seven-year journey for me i've got three managing directors i got a bunch of researchers associates

SPEAKER_08: and principals and to be willing to do development to be clear notice we're not spending we're not hiring

Jason Calacanis: people this is not an expensive that we are training each other like it this isn't some huge monetary investment that you're making in training you know i mean the what you could do and i've had people

SPEAKER_25: suggest this um is instead of having 10 people with the majority being trained up just hire two

SPEAKER_00: partners and put or three partners and put all that money towards that so yeah don't have 10 people have three and just pay people three times as much and just get senior people but i you know i i

SPEAKER_25: i through whatever circumstance you know these small funds you don't have a big budget so you

SPEAKER_00: kind of i kind of built a support team around me that i was like if you guys want to become vcs and go from you know operations people to vcs i'll teach you and they're like yeah would you i was like sure journalist you want to learn investing you know okay yeah why not it doesn't seem that hard to me that's the other thing is i think people also overestimate how hard it is to learn

SPEAKER_25: something and underestimate people's ability to learn something if they're motivated and people

SPEAKER_154: are motivated to learn venture i can tell you that because it's a great not supposed to curse i know

SPEAKER_277: i'm sorry family show all right thanks everybody all right listen i enjoy the interview sorry for the divided right and enjoy the interview into the interview uh eat your algae everybody about algae don't

SPEAKER_280: eat it you don't eat it bury it bury your algae everybody listen master class is the best way to learn from

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SPEAKER_286: startups masterclass.com startups for 15 off rafael jovin is founder and chief scientist at brilliant

SPEAKER_62: planet and i think it is probably safest rafael if i just let you explain what you guys are building here

SPEAKER_288: okay no worries thank you very much and thank you for having us and it's uh it's really exciting actually

SPEAKER_289: so what brilliant planet does is we grow algae really cheaply the way they grow in nature half the planet is driven by algae in the ocean algal photosynthesis and it is um what moves most of the carbon on the planet and so what we wanted to do is take advantage of a lot of free resources like empty desert land lots of sunlight there's a lot of sunlight out there deep ocean water there's more than 50 times the nutrients that we use every year on land available in the ocean at any one point in time

SPEAKER_290: and and bring that rich ocean water together with local algae in those empty deserts in those empty

SPEAKER_289: coastal deserts and grow more biology grow more algae grow more biomass and it's the whole point of it was it was supposed to be additive it was supposed to be new growth that wouldn't happen by itself and the idea was if we can grow a lot of algae they will absorb a lot of co2 we can do that very cheaply and then we can harvest those algae dry

SPEAKER_290: them with sunlight just the way it is in the desert and bury them to remove that carbon from the atmosphere so the whole point of it from the very get-go at the very beginning was the first patent in was a

SPEAKER_289: method of carbon sequestration and we wanted to be able to um use what nature gives us in the way that it gives it to us to do more and increase more nature more biomass to draw down that carbon that's

SPEAKER_297: what we do how tell me about how efficient these algae blooms are in terms of carbon sequestration because when you describe it you know all new fields of algae and using seawater and you know getting that into the desert and then harvesting and then drying it out it sounds like not super efficient so i'm assuming that it must sequester a lot of carbon to make all of that worth it oh for sure so per square

SPEAKER_289: meter per year we can sequester 30 times as much co2 than a forest does and um so it's it is it is there are no leaves there are no roots there are no trunks there's no there are no branches it's very simple uh in terms of all of the biology goes into growing more algae that capture more carbon

SPEAKER_290: and so it is a very very fast system what the real invention was is is that in nature these algal blooms happen very episodically usually in the springtime and usually in the autumn and what we normally

SPEAKER_289: witness is uh sort of fishling the eggs and everything to coincide with those blooms it's the base of the food chain and so all we wanted to do was to take advantage of the local organisms the way they like it in those exponential growing very rapidly growing algal blooms and make that happen in our ponds year round the real invention is is that we got to sort of perpetuate that phenomenon in our ponds all year round and we've now done this in south africa in oman so south africa is very cold in the winter time oman is really intensely hot in the summertime um across huge range of environments

SPEAKER_290: and now we're in a more moderate place in morocco and we've now run this for five years in the real

SPEAKER_289: world not in the lab in actual uh production scale uh we've got the largest algal raceway pond in morocco

SPEAKER_290: probably in the world and it is um and and it has shown us that we can do this um even through covet when there were very stringent covet restrictions in morocco and you couldn't go in and out but the local team uh continue to grow things with what nature gives them right there and so it's been a very good experience in the sense that um we've seen this now work through a whole lot of different seasons a whole lot of different environments with local challenges of course um and and what makes us confident about this is is is two things one is the the the algal growth process works really well but the other thing is is there's an enormous amount of empty desert land available and the reason why i say that

SPEAKER_289: is uh there's virtually an infinite amount of nutrients available in the ocean uh obviously there's an excessive co2 right now in the environment and um and we really genuinely believe that we can scale this

SPEAKER_290: to a really significant level the other part that makes us confident is is that we've now spent the years of trying to identify all the places where costs creep in and we've got a collaboration

SPEAKER_289: for example with southampton university uh that has been um very very productive where they look at our

SPEAKER_290: paddle wheels and how we mix the algae in our ponds and keep them in suspension and they have reduced the cost of that paddle wheel by 90 percent we've learned from shrimp farmers how to sort of pump the water once and then percolates through the system by gravity so we don't have any pumps we've learned from the miners how to remove the algal biomass very cheaply on these again very passive

SPEAKER_289: screens that uh are gravity fed and so the point is um we spent the years to try to strip

SPEAKER_290: out all the electricity costs and all the energy costs and and you know from a life cycle analysis

SPEAKER_289: point and you make this a very very low technology low cost low operational effort system so that when

SPEAKER_310: we pull that carbon out that we actually really have a net big impact right and then what

SPEAKER_297: what walk me again through the sort of end of life of the algae is it just dried and buried or is it

SPEAKER_316: used as any kind of a biofuel no uh of course we looked at biofuels and when i started this my mates used to come to me and say why is it so expensive to grow biofuels and i thought well hang on a minute

SPEAKER_296: every puddle every pool turns green if you turn around so what are we doing wrong algae grow for free all the time everywhere on the planet so so um of course we looked at biofuels we looked at aquaculture feed we looked at human food we looked at high value products just like everybody else has in the space

SPEAKER_290: but um but the original idea was to move a lot of carbon and and in the end that is where we ended up again and of course we had our own um our own experiments and frankly very good aquaculture feed but from a net impact point of view actually growing the algae specifically for the purpose of carbon

SPEAKER_289: sequestration and then not processing it just solar drying it in such a way that it does mummify and it does go into the ground long term is the most net carbon negative technology we could make and and

SPEAKER_290: there is a huge demand for high quality carbon credits um you know so we can have a this weekend

SPEAKER_289: startup landfill that you can send uh carbon trust or vera or puro to come and certify and then and then they can you know we own the biomass it's not somewhere in the deep ocean it's not sort of mysteriously injected somewhere it's not some carbon offset of a bike scheme that may or may not have uh replaced a car car mile it's something we physically have in hand so it's a very high quality

SPEAKER_290: carbon credit and and it's you know very certifiable in that sense i feel like that leads directly into my

SPEAKER_297: next question which is what is your business model and i'm assuming that these high quality carbon

SPEAKER_290: credits must be related yeah of course i mean the business model is to grow algae as affordably as

SPEAKER_289: possible on as big a scale as possible so to stay with that for a second we are developed we've developed the technology from a growth point of view now we are spending a lot of effort on the sort of engineering scale up to really truly industrial scale we've identified about half a million square kilometers of really ideal coastal desert land in places like south africa namibia southern angola china peru ecuador um huge areas in the mediterranean western sort of uh morocco places like the red sea arabian sea arabian sea the gulf australia and we've identified about a half a million square kilometer really excellent land and we want to make it that technology accessible to all those local governments and local environments so that they can then implement this technology on a large scale so the scale of

SPEAKER_290: engineering is also about us being able to anticipate what the local environmental conditions are so

SPEAKER_289: we're very good when it comes to sort of remote sensing technology and sensor technology in terms

SPEAKER_290: of seeing how the algae grow um and and and that and that scale up engineering is very important and the other bit is we want to make sure that we enable people to again do that mrv that measurement that

SPEAKER_289: record all that you know validation and the verification of the technology and the carbon and so we're very very good at tracking carbon in the incoming sea water how much we pull from the co from the air from the atmosphere how much of that co2 is absorbed in our pond as we mix our pond and so um making that available to to other companies so they can deliver this worldwide

SPEAKER_43: because so the idea just just to break it down a little bit more so the idea is that your customers

SPEAKER_289: directly would be governments uh it's actually and then for the moment it's high it's it's it's starting with the tech sector people like microsoft shopify spotify stripe um there's a huge demand for these high quality carbon credits and if you look at the sort of so is the product and with respect to

SPEAKER_297: the fact that you're the chief scientist but is the product then the credits or is the product the actual ponds okay so you work with a local government to install one of these ponds do all of this very precise tracking and then create high quality credits that companies want exactly right

SPEAKER_289: and that can be i mean that can be a local organization that can be a look that can be a subsidiary uh our moroccan company is a subsidiary today um and it can be it can be government absolutely

SPEAKER_346: gotcha and then how would you price the credits so uh the what we are seeing and what we're

SPEAKER_290: witnessing is is that they're the kind of low carbon the low value carbon credits have increased in

SPEAKER_289: value a lot as people have kind of consolidated and the market has you know sort of gone from the three to the eighteen dollars uh sort of uh space in terms of not always so easy to verify or or stable schemes but that the price around a hundred dollars a ton is the sort of high quality kind of carbon credit that that the demand for is increasing very quickly and so that's what we're targeting we know that we can hit that target um we will not be able to hit it in our current sort of research site or in the 30 hectare demonstrator site that we're planning on building this coming year but certainly after that in the first commercial site we will be able to hit those kinds of prices gotcha and just for

Jason Calacanis: context it sounds like the algae blooms you'll grow at commercial scale will be able to sequester 30

SPEAKER_03: 000 38 000 tons from the atmosphere annually is that are those numbers correct no that's i don't know

SPEAKER_289: where that number came from that's interesting there's 38 000 gigatons of co2 in the ocean i'm not

SPEAKER_315: entirely sure where that number came from but but no the first thousand hectare farm that we're planning

SPEAKER_289: on building will is is designed to sequester at least 100 000 tons of co2 per year oh okay and uh we have had a hundred dollars a ton exactly yeah and so we're we we uh have 61 square kilometers of land right now so 6100 hectares so we even on the existing site we anticipate we can build multiple

SPEAKER_301: modules but just to give you a sense of scale um uh that sort of sort of that first farm um is is

SPEAKER_289: going to produce if we have four or five modules somewhere between 500 000 tons of co2 per year but to really have a big impact we need to be we need to go global right um and so the 50 the the half a million square kilometers that we're looking for uh that we've identified in terms of that ideal coastal land that's flat and in the right ocean environment in politically stable countries can sequester about two gigatons of carbon two billion tons of co2 per year and so and so we we we are very conscious that

SPEAKER_290: that first farm is great but we need to be able to build a lot of them and in morocco alone there's

SPEAKER_289: about two and a half thousand square kilometers of that ideal land um i i'm i'm we even identified a 3 200 hectare site in ibiza in the middle of the mediterranean and sort of a party island so the

SPEAKER_371: point is there's land everywhere and uh you'll have a lot of volunteers a lot of reporters volunteering

SPEAKER_374: to come and visit that site i'm sure yes exactly field trips exactly but the point this is so um you

SPEAKER_289: know we we can produce a much more valuable product in quantity than many uh salt evaporation ponds and

SPEAKER_359: other things that people do in these quite humble environments i wonder um how you are thinking about

SPEAKER_297: sort of ecosystems as you grow this it's as i am talking to you at this moment in oakland california we're having like a mass fish die off because of red tide algal blooms you know obviously that's not what you're creating but i'm sure that you have made many arrangements for making sure that these

SPEAKER_289: blooms don't escape somehow no it's a it's a really good question so uh the first thing is we work with organisms that are not harmful algal blooms so when i was at woodsville oceanographic and i was studying

SPEAKER_301: harmful algal blooms the whole idea was how to stop them um uh and and and of course uh we're not

SPEAKER_289: growing those kinds of organisms on the harmful algal blooms they are they're not many species like that uh they're actually quite easy to identify so it's a familiar territory but to your point we do a couple of things that are really important one is we work with local organisms they're not genetically engineered they're not modified in any way they are the way they are in the environment so even if we were to leak them out the local fish are happy to have them uh they kind of fit into the environment they're not doing something unexpected the second thing is um we are deacidifying a huge amount of seawater so we actually help in terms of not sort of local environmental restoration so we can grow seagrasses we can grow mangroves we can grow corals in our sea water so our sea water we do not remove any so-called alkalinity the stuff that holds the co2 in the sea water we just remove the co2 and so it reduces that acidification that everybody hears about and returns to the ocean high oxygen very clean sea water that is actually able to make the muscle shells the clam shells the oyster shells and so um we've spent quite a lot of time working in the terms of the local environmental impact assessments and making sure that there are no unintended consequences um one of the things that's really important here is uh we are very very good at anticipating the quality of the seawater that's coming into our ponds that we're that we're actually using because for us it's the nutrient source it's where our our you know sort of the resources that we need come from and so we've built a so-called finite volume community ocean model so it's a it's a way of building very localized very specific models for your local environment with the scottish association marine sciences but the beauty of that is this is it also allows us to um to have the discharge tract and to and to see where our discharge water is going and so we're very conscious of the way we interact with the environment um the reason why i mentioned uh the red sea and sort of the mediterranean is we are very conscious of different environments so where we are in the atlantic on the atlantic coast in morocco it's a very nutrient rich environment whereas for example places in the eastern mediterranean or the red sea

SPEAKER_332: are very nutrient depleted environments and so we have to be very careful to sort of match our production with those local environments right does that make scaling more difficult it sounds like you know you've

SPEAKER_297: clearly solved a lot of cost and infrastructure issues but it sounds like each installation is

SPEAKER_290: going to be a very bespoke situation so the actual method of how we grow the algae it's really very

SPEAKER_289: simple actually take the local algae we add seawater when they've used all the nutrients we add more seawater and they get to sort of a certain volume and the pond overflows we put it into a bigger pond right it's really quite simple operationally magic exactly and then when the biggest pond is full we harvest it and we take the water and put it back in the ocean um so the the actual local operation is quite simple but you are right that the timing of the dilution how much seawater we add what the initial cell concentration is what the local light level is how fast to run our paddle wheels to create that spring algal bloom feeling in the ponds right that is the subtlety and that's the complexity and so what we have done is and and frankly uh the uk government has been very helpful we've had a uh project called agrisat with innovate uk they've given us five and a half million pounds to to to look at the fundamentals of the system and the reason is is so that we can kind of use those fundamental principles regardless of where we are so it's truly platform technology and the idea is it's it's something that uh is is quite transferable one thing that we are very good at and that everybody in our team has done is we're very good at bioprospecting those local out we got to find those local organisms first and they have to be the right size and grow at the right speed and do the right things and that's one of the skills we have but the actual uh dilution uh sometimes in the winter time for example where we are now they're not as many nutrients in the water we may need to supplement those kinds of details that's the subtlety

Jason Calacanis: in the system got it and then finally um what do you need in terms of you know carbon markets are

SPEAKER_297: still somewhat nascent largely voluntary what would you love to see in terms of some certainty around carbon markets you've raised 25 million dollars obviously uh you know vcs are making a bet on these markets existing and continuing to grow but i wonder what you would love to see from a business perspective to really sort of secure that business model going forward and not even business model right like that actual driving force behind a lot of investment that will sequester a lot of carbon

SPEAKER_289: the first thing that would really make our life much better is if there was consistency in terms of how things are measured and if there were a universal framework or one that is really clearly defined what we find is that if we speak with any verification or certification agency they all have their own quirky sort of approaches with their own kind of experiences and and it is really all over the place and it is hard to believe some things that get certified and and and you know some challenges that others have so the fact is that kind of structure would be really great second thing would be um

SPEAKER_290: governments have been very they have the nationally determined contributions they have their plans

SPEAKER_289: um and they you know they're doing many useful things i mean i don't get me wrong we need every solution we need tree planting we need decarbonization we need uh insulation on housing we need alternative energy sources for sure and so all of those things help but the fact is is when it comes to things like we are doing just to give you just to illustrate and this is not a criticism but in morocco to get our environmental impact assessment required us to get approval from 27 different ministries and certainly as a young startup company i didn't know you could have 27 ministries in the government um and so the point is is it's it's it's it's all for good reason but the fact is this that kind of regulatory environment would be would be super helpful the third thing that is really uh i think probably all of your guests uh would be wondering about is this if there's a carbon price um a carbon tax a carbon price anything that we can orient ourselves would be super helpful i don't actually mind the voluntary market um i think the voluntary market is adjusting itself quite sensibly um i do think that some of the schemes where people are trying to stimulate innovation are very creative and very useful but but at the end of the day everybody's going to buy more of these credits if they can anticipate what

SPEAKER_316: the prices are and so in that sense that kind of price regulatory mechanism is something that we still

SPEAKER_43: need some help with rafael jovin is founder and chief scientist of brilliant planet you can see what

Jason Calacanis: they're working on at brilliantplanet.com i'm excited to make that field trip to ibiza and uh it's

SPEAKER_408: great to meet you yeah i'd love to have you visit actually i love a gigaton scale conversation amazing

SPEAKER_297: rafael so cool thank you thank you very much all right everybody thanks for listening to the show

SPEAKER_08: what a great week molly what a great week hopefully you are enjoying a day off the us and canada are off for labor day uh and don't worry we got a huge week coming next week yeah i'm gonna

SPEAKER_00: have my guy keith roboi on the show uh doing his quarterly every six month check-in i like he

SPEAKER_03: doesn't tell me this in advance he's just like i love it molly it's gonna be awesome i love it molly

SPEAKER_413: he's got a lot of strong feelings about topics that you love i love it can't can't wait i just

Jason Calacanis: cannot wait uh it is going to be a great week and then one more reminder we will see you on tuesday we are actually taking a day off see you then two days off in a week wow we did it molly

SPEAKER_415: saturday monday wow we took two days off amazing good job us