SPEAKER_00: small tangent for just a sec. This one's hilarious. There's a long story to it, but the long and the short is basically there was one investor who offered to invest in us. I met him through telegram. I used to work in crypto, so I know a lot of people in crypto. And so he offered to invest in us, asked us to come to Amsterdam to meet him because he doesn't do business without a handshake deal first and seeing you face to face. So I went back door and started looking this guy up. Looked like he was a great guy. Looked like he was investing through

SPEAKER_02: family offices and things like that. However, it turned out the man I was talking to on a Zoom meeting was actually not who he said he was. He was using some sort of AI filter to filter his face

SPEAKER_03: and pretend to be this person and try to get me to come to Amsterdam. So all I was doing

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SPEAKER_12: Startups. I'm Jason Calacanis. He's Lon Harris. And with us from Providence, Rhode Island, our boy, Alex Wilhelm. We have a huge, huge docket today. I want to just get right to work. We got some news. Then I want to do some tips from the trenches. We've got a really good segment. We're starting today. Tips from the trenches. We're going to talk about how people get their first customer. This is super important. Getting your first customer, hardest customer. So we'll get into that.

SPEAKER_20: And then we're going to have an office hours with people from our portfolio. Alex, what's in the news?

SPEAKER_23: All right, Jason, to start off today, I have a story that I think you are going to absolutely love over from Palantir, a new fellowship program that's going to replace some children going to college, at least temporarily. I'm going to go ahead and bring up the image here and read it to everybody. But if you have been a fan of the Teal Fellowship, you can consider this to be an echo or a reprise. Here is what Palantir says. College is broken. Admissions are based on flawed criteria. Meritocracy and excellence are no longer the pursuits of educational institutions, and chaos has ensued on university campuses. Starting today, Palantir is launching a fall of fellowship for the best and brightest. Based solely on merit and academic excellence, students will be invited for interviews. And then later on, select applicants will receive an internship offer. And then if they complete that, they may be offered a full-time role at the company. Jason, there's some rules to this. You have to have an SAT score of 1460 or an ACT of 33 plus. Pretty high numbers, but this does, I think, fit into the gen bet thing we've been talking about for a long time, taking a wager on a non-traditional bath. So this is skip college. Don't go 250K into debt.

SPEAKER_12: Right. And I was talking to somebody, they said college private schools are now getting closer to 100,000 than they are 50 all in. And so maybe really the bogey is 400,000. Obviously state school, city college, you're down at 10 to 50K a year. So maybe you get out of it with housing,

SPEAKER_30: depends on the region you're in, for 25 to, I don't know, 75K a year.

SPEAKER_32: I went to grad school at USC, my alma mater. It's now 73,000 a year, annual tuition to USC.

SPEAKER_34: I think Tufts is a hundred and you can spend 70K. Is that where you went?

SPEAKER_23: No, I went to the University of Chicago, which is, I don't know, 90. But I mean, you can spend 70K on like sixth grade now. So education costs have gotten so nuts, something had to break eventually. So I'm not shocked to see this model. This is definitely, I think Jason, too niche, too high end, too selective to be called a trend. But I think we're

SPEAKER_22: going to see other companies do this because why not grab the smartest folks right out of high school, train them on the job and then just keep them.

SPEAKER_37: I think the only thing I don't like about this is that they pay you. I think parents should pay

SPEAKER_39: $5,000 a month to send their kids to this for 10 months. I am literally not joking. I think they

SPEAKER_41: should lower the SAT requirement to 1200. In other words, you're still way above average. Right.

SPEAKER_44: I think the average is probably eight, 900 or something like that. Around 1000 on a 1600 point scale. Yeah.

SPEAKER_12: Okay. So I would put it at 1200. So you got to be 20% better. You pay $5,000 a month, you pay $50,000 a year, $25,000 a year. And then you can give scholarships as well. Putting all that aside, you know, if a child of mine came to me and said, here's my options, go 300,000 into debt, spend this number of years on a campus or go to Palantir, I would be and get paid. Oh, my God. This is a no brainer. It is niche. I hope we see more of these. In fact, we have one of these here at our venture firm. We weren't finding, Alex, the sort of work ethic

SPEAKER_11: that we wanted to see in a finance company. In a finance company, when you go to Wall Street, working 50, 60, 70 hours a week is table stakes. Like the idea of coming in on a Saturday or Sunday

SPEAKER_12: and putting in eight hours or four hours over the weekend to catch up, to compete against people,

SPEAKER_41: not a big deal. The idea of, you know, getting in at eight, nine, 10 a.m. and working until dinner time and ordering dinner at eight or nine o'clock and then going home and sleeping and not watching Netflix all night, that was not considered a big deal in the finance space. But in venture, they were hiring kids out of Ivy League schools only exclusively, you had to go to Stanford, you had

SPEAKER_12: to have an MBA, and they got paid incredibly high salaries because those schools are incredibly expensive and they didn't have a work ethic. So they, when I told folks, hey, I want you to do five meetings, six meetings a day with founders for 20 minutes, right coverage for an hour, you know, it's a 10 hour day, whatever it is. People looked at me like I was crazy. They were like,

SPEAKER_54: this is too much work. I'm like, I do twice that amount of work. So we started our own program.

SPEAKER_41: We call it the RAP program now, researcher, analyst, associate, principal. Those are the four levels. You started out very similar salaries to these, in fact, almost exactly. And you go 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, whatever, and you can have a job in venture. And over five, six, seven years, we are getting people to really learn the craft of venture, as I see it, not as Stanford Business

SPEAKER_12: School or Wharton sees it, those are all fine. But I'm trying to do something very early stage,

SPEAKER_41: more gritty, closer, it's not as pretty, but it's a lot more gritty, closer to the actual experience that founders go through. Right. Not the ivory tower experience. This is great. Everybody should be doing this. And we should see every company offer something similar to this. I think that's the key is like,

SPEAKER_32: it is a little bit of a prisoner's dilemma sort of thing. Like if you go to Palantir instead of college, you're counting on, you know, your next job and the next job after that, those companies will have a similar sort of philosophy of like, no degree is okay, because you've got this incredible.

SPEAKER_64: Yeah, you have a Palantir degree. Right. So it's like we, you kind of need the

SPEAKER_32: whole industry to convert to this way of thinking. Otherwise, you're going to have a lot of like people in their late twenties, early thirties who have trouble moving to their next gig because they

SPEAKER_66: don't have that bachelor's degree. You buy that Alex, or if you worked at Palantir for eight years, would you be easily employable if you made it eight years at Palantir?

SPEAKER_34: I think you'd be incredibly easily employable after eight years, but I think Lon's probably more

SPEAKER_22: talking about the kids that might apply for this and get in, but then not get the full-time job offer. Are you then stuck? Here's my thought. Yeah.

SPEAKER_23: Take a nine month gap year and go to college the next year and you'll have Palantir on your resume. So to me, that risk isn't quite so large, but I think we're looking at this in too narrow of a way. I think instead of having VC firms hire associates with this type of model or a couple of companies, VC firms should grab the most intelligent high school students and turn them into founders more quickly and just save a lot of time to short circuit the whole process and get them into their

SPEAKER_74: their flow early. Kind of like Founder University, Jason, but for 19 year olds.

SPEAKER_12: Well, funny you say that. Founder University, we now have high school kids applying and coming. So it's actually what you predicted there and what you're saying is actually the game on the field. We have many young kids coming in, going to the program. We had a kid who was under 16 or 17, and my team came to me a couple of years ago and was like, hey, can we invest in a 15 year old? I'm like, can a 15 year old start a company in Delaware? I don't think so. And we had to go through this whole rigmarole. And I just told somebody who works for me, you know, I was like, Heidi, call the parents. Do a Zoom with the parents. Are the parents on board? If the parents are on board, we'll do it. And then I literally said, make a permission slip. And they said, so do I call our law firm? I said, no, go on the internet, find a permission slip and cross out going to Great Adventure and put working at it. And go to Founder University. Who cares? This is awesome. What a great trend. And this shows when you squeeze too hard, when you're offering socks, people will find another

SPEAKER_41: way. More of this full on F the industrial academic certification industry. Right. What else is in the

SPEAKER_47: news? I saw there's something going on with Digg. Yes. And Alex O'Hanian. Yeah, I got an email from

SPEAKER_81: Digg inviting me to join a new thing called the Groundbreakers program. Jason, we talked about

SPEAKER_23: the return of Digg. I think you were actually kind of an MC for the Digg Nation rollout event. Well, the good news for folks who want Digg to come back and save the internet is that it's making progress. So I went ahead and clicked on the link, Jason, and then guess what? They demanded that I give them five dollars. Okay. And I thought to myself, actually, I love that because it means that everyone who shows up is going to be, I mean, in the smallest sense, skin in the game, but like we're opting in with a couple of bucks. So I think that's a good test. Yeah. And when I checked on the, they're using a company called circle to have kind of a social backend as they test new ideas. Um, there were already 17,000 people who had signed up and paid, I presume the five dollars up from three K the morning before. So quite a lot of momentum there. Um, but if you, uh, did sign up, check your email. You might have an invite. This is the image that we have. This is a clearly a mock-up of sorts, but Jason, as you can kind of imagine, there's a leaderboard, individual people, communities, one focused on Digg Nation. And this is a return of the classic, the classic Digg button makes me so happy. I don't know exactly what Digg is going to look like when it's done, but I guarantee you this, I'm going to be a day one minute one user. And I love to see some internet OGs trying to bring

SPEAKER_25: back some, the old joy of the pre algorithm internet. I think we need it, Jason.

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SPEAKER_12: Yeah, it's fantastic. If you look at the design, it's a little bit notion-esque, a little superhuman-esque in terms of cleanliness and crispness combined with

SPEAKER_41: the classic Dig logo and the classic Dig button. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Love it. And I love the idea of a $5 gate because what that does is you're going to keep the trolls out. Trolls almost universally do not want to take out their wallet for two reasons. One,

SPEAKER_12: they're so not committed to their trolling that even $5 is not worth it. And they don't want to reveal who they really are because once you put your credit card in, you generally know who you are.

SPEAKER_41: I know this because I went to a paid community for my replies on X, formerly known as Twitter, just because, you know, it's just so much trolling. And there are, I think there are three people who troll me on it. And I allow them to troll me because they're giving $3 a month to charity. So there it is. This is a great way if they are charging $5 and they have 15,000 paid signups

SPEAKER_12: already, then they'll clearly get to 50,000. If they get to 50,000 and it's $5 a month, that would be $3 million a year in revenue out of the gate. That's going to pay for 10 developers and five other, you know, business people, whatever, to work on it. It's all good. All

SPEAKER_99: right, let's keep going here. What else do we got in the news?

SPEAKER_23: Something that I'm pretty excited about, Jason, you and I have talked about serve robotics on the show any number of times. Well, there's another company out there called Coco. And one of your favorite companies, DoorDash is teaming up with Coco and their little delivery bots to bring food around LA and Chicago. Now, DoorDash has previously worked with Coco in Helsinki via its Wolt, I believe, sub brand that they own. But in this case, we're seeing really just more robotic transportation, more self-driving, albeit in a small sense. And I really do think that we have been right to be bullish on this for a long time, though. I'm curious why we're still seeing Coco and serve robotics remain independent when they really do appear to be a feature in a food delivery platform, if you will. But they're still independent, they're still landing deals, but I just want to see Uber Eats and DoorDash snap up these companies and go to real war versus these

SPEAKER_43: kind of tiny little partnerships. Like to me, it feels timid when they should be being more aggressive.

SPEAKER_99: These, I believe, are going to be a sleeper hit. Why? The majority of deliveries, you know, for Uber Eats,

SPEAKER_41: for DoorDash occur in cities. And once people get used to these things zipping around, they are going to embrace them in a major way. They're doing them in, I think, what they call the infill area. So between a dense city and then the suburbs is infill. Right. So this would be,

SPEAKER_12: I guess, an area might be like Santa Monica. Mm-hmm. Hollywood has these as well. And Hollywood

SPEAKER_32: has them. It's the same company. Their previous model is called Samo server robotics. And they're all over LA to the point that John Mulaney has integrated them into his LA chat show now because you see them everywhere around Hollywood when you're walking around. Here's the great news about these.

SPEAKER_12: If you have sidewalks and this thing's going down the street, the chances of it hitting anybody are extremely low. Yes. The chances of it hitting somebody and doing damage are minuscule. They're going, I think the max they can go is about 10 miles an hour, but I think that's about it. So they would be like a runner going, a sprinting person. Mm-hmm. And I don't even think they go sprinting

SPEAKER_32: level. They're probably like jogging. They go pretty slow and they have, they're very aware of people. So if there's a person walking near them, they just stop. They'd stop and they let you pass

SPEAKER_62: because it's a burrito. It's not like it's going to go terrible. The fact that these burritos get

SPEAKER_61: better and they're very focused on not disturbing pedestrians. That's obviously a big priority. Now

SPEAKER_72: compare it to, go ahead. Five miles an hour on the sidewalks and 15 miles per hour on shoulders of roadways and on roads according to LA in 2021. Okay. Perfect. Which is a 12 minute mile,

SPEAKER_41: which is a brisk walk. It's not even a run. It might be like the slowest version of jogging you can do. So these are going to absolutely change everything. And the reason they're going to change everything is because in New York City, the bike culture of electric bikes is so goddamn dangerous. I was in New York and I'm a New Yorker. I know how to cross the street. I mean,

SPEAKER_12: I could literally cross Broadway at 42nd street, you know, catty corner. Sure. No problem. I could do it at 1 AM. I could do it at, you know, 8 AM and nobody would have to slow down. I'm like frogger going through there. Now, when I go there, I don't even try. I was staying five feet back from the curb with my daughter because of electric bikes. Yeah. They have the limiters taken off of them.

SPEAKER_41: So I have a couple of electric bikes and I saw online, you can undo the limiter and go up to like 35 miles an hour. These guys have them going 50 miles an hour. To your question, Alex, why haven't

SPEAKER_122: they been bought and fully deployed? Yes. If there was some defensible technology here,

SPEAKER_12: then they would get bought. There have been like 10 of these companies. There's really, I hate to say it, not much defensibility to this. The defensibility is having a hundred million, 200 million people on your app. Right. And having a million restaurants using your software. That's the defensibility is the

SPEAKER_41: network. Uh huh. These are going to be created en masse in China. Right now they're bespoke and created here. These things are going to, they're going to make a million of these a day in factories in Vietnam, China, India. And these will be the predominant delivery method along with zip line. Uh, and regulation is the reason these aren't more broadly available. As long as nobody's kid gets the, a kid getting hit or a dog would make these, you know, have a problem, but these are all watched as well. So when they have an intervention, there are people watching these in real time and they have

SPEAKER_128: a joystick or a Xbox controller. So if there is a problem, you could easily have the, what is Waymo called there? Um, there's a term that Cruz and Waymo had for the guides, the Sherpas, the backup pilots, the remote monitors of these, those remote monitors are ready to take over at any time. And so

SPEAKER_12: the safety record of these I'm sure is spectacular. I doubt there has been one person injured and taken to a hospital by these. That's not like did it on purpose to, to get a, um, I'm seeing fleet response.

SPEAKER_129: That's what they call their remote monitoring system. That's the response. They don't want to

SPEAKER_132: call it remote monitoring. They're very specific about this. I have a clip here of, uh, Lily Shaw,

SPEAKER_23: who is a Coco pilot. That's what they call them. Here's an image or sorry, video of her using a Xbox controller to drive one of these Coco's presumably at the point of intervention. That looks like a fun video

SPEAKER_133: game. Cool. It's like you're driving, you're driving a Mario cart through real life. People

SPEAKER_22: play games like Euro truck simulator, 2024. Why don't we just have people play drive a cocoa and

SPEAKER_136: get a dollar? Yeah, that's brilliant. Let me also tell you something. You know how much that real world data is worth to Nvidia and to optimus and Tesla? Yeah. Like these things are seeing the

SPEAKER_12: real world all day long. They know that there's like four guys who hang out on a certain street corner slinging whatever they're slinging, telling jokes. Maybe they're a bebop band. I don't know what

SPEAKER_139: they're doing on the corner. You know, there's a lot going on on the boulevard. There's a lot going

SPEAKER_12: on on the boulevard. These things are also going to have a secondary use, which is something bad happens in real world. These things are going to pick it up with their video. They've got all that 3d data. All this is training is occurring 10 years ago when these things started in San Francisco, the way they started was there was somebody walking behind them with a joystick. So people were 10 feet behind them using them like a little RV. What are they called? Radio cars? RC cars. Thank you, Alex. So these are like RC cars. Then they went remote. Now they're AI with backup remote. Eventually,

SPEAKER_41: these things are going to be able to go pretty fast in the streets. And that will be shocking to people. Imagine one of these in the roadway going 65 miles an hour, 35 miles an hour and being able to navigate and not cause an accident or get in an accident. That's another possibility here. Great job. This is going to be the majority of deliveries by 2030. All right. We all know if you're a founder,

SPEAKER_88: or even if you're on a small business, you're thinking about your company 24 seven 365 days a year. That's the life of a founder. This is not clock in clock out nine to five gig for you as the business owner. So when you're hiring, you want a partner that's as equally as committed as you are. And that's of course, LinkedIn jobs. LinkedIn jobs is like your co-founder. They're going to make it so simple for you to post your jobs for free on LinkedIn, where there are 1 billion members, you're going to be able to share what you're posting and actually keep all the promising candidates organized in one place. And also LinkedIn is going to help you quickly write a job and get it in front of the right people, whether you want to post for free or use some promotion to get it in front of even more qualified applicants. So do me a favor, don't take my word for it. I mean, you should, I know what I'm talking about is where I find my great people, but just understand that 72% of small businesses using LinkedIn said that it helped them find the best candidates. So find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses already use LinkedIn for hiring. So here's your call to action. Post your job for free. Why wouldn't you do it? It's free. F R E E. That's a good price. LinkedIn.com slash TWIST. Once again, that's linkedin.com slash TWIST to post your job for free. Terms and conditions do apply.

SPEAKER_23: All right, Lon, let's go to the trenches. We have a couple of clips we want to get to.

SPEAKER_64: Sure. So Jason asked us to put this new segment together. The idea is we're taking a topic. We're

SPEAKER_32: looking at a bunch of different thoughts and ideas about that topic from all across the web that we can find. So for today's topic, getting your first customer.

SPEAKER_136: This is a topic that comes up all the time. Sure. Or not at all. And when it comes up,

SPEAKER_12: it's great because there are so many ways to get those first customers. But when it doesn't come up, that's when you really have to be concerned because it means somebody's building a product in a vacuum. They're not even thinking about customers. You should be doing customer interviews before you start building. You should be doing listening labs. You can look up a listening lab, basically where you present a product to a customer and you ask them to try it and they move on to the next phase. And you gently say, your friend sent you this, tell me what you're doing. But you don't direct them too much. And then there's directed listening lab. There's all kinds of modalities

SPEAKER_41: here. What I like about the talk we gave yesterday at Foundry University, this came up because they created an exercise. Because one of the things founders reported to us in a survey, which they didn't say, this is why surveys are really good when you're running something, is to constantly do

SPEAKER_66: surveying and don't worry about survey burnout. Don't worry about your customers feeling like you sent

SPEAKER_12: them too many surveys. They don't have to do them. They're not forced to do them. So survey early and often, and then you want to double click on the survey in our survey, you know, how to raise money comes up, how to hire, but also people may not vocalize it, but they did check it off of a list, how to get my first customers. Yes. A lot of the ways people used to do it, SEO, maybe don't work as well, or they're super competitive. But I see that Y Combinator made like a super cut of a video of 50

SPEAKER_17: founders and share how they got their first customers. Maybe we play that and then talk about it on the

SPEAKER_32: side. We've got a minute clip here from that. It's just an overview of a bunch of different founders telling their first customer stories. So we made a mock-up of our dream personal

SPEAKER_170: finance product, made a website for it with a little waitlist and we posted it on a Reddit group. And within 24 hours, there was like close to a thousand people that had signed up for the waitlist. It really resonated with a lot of people that were having the same like financial pain points as us. We launched our closed beta and started onboarding those customers. For us, it was a bit of a wild week in

SPEAKER_173: which we launched on Twitter and suddenly a few days later I went from 50 followers to like 10,000. We had 20,000 stars on GitHub. We had 150,000 unique visitors a day. And so we're really fortunate to have the lightning in the bottle and have all these customers come to us. You're asking a great time.

SPEAKER_176: We actually got our first customer paying this morning. How did you find that first customer? So we launched. We shared what we were doing about two and a half weeks ago on just our LinkedIns and shared with our friends. And a lot of people came inbound. People were really curious about what we were building here. Got a great waitlist and this customer came through that waitlist, which was really exciting. We don't really have any customers yet, but we've got like one really good advisor who sort of made

SPEAKER_178: some introductions to folks at a couple of the big ag tech companies. So sort of networking our way in

SPEAKER_32: really. Pretty good overview of a bunch of the different sort of techniques that come up producing discoverable content. We heard people talking about embedding themselves authentically within the community. So going to Hacker News, going to Reddit, going to places where potential customers already work and then influencer marketing or PR and like get introductions through friends of friends of friends and trying to sort of zeroing in on people there. So we also found a blogger named Ali Abulata surveyed 120 different public companies and analyze all of their go to market strategies and produce these two flowcharts based on whether you're looking for high intent or low intent customers. And so we've got those pulled in as well. Maybe you want to talk about high intent versus low intent.

SPEAKER_181: And what? Sure. And then we can pull this up. Maybe we could take a look at it as we discuss it.

SPEAKER_12: High intent. They need something right now. You know, they're they need a car. They need a bicycle. They go to the bicycle store. They search. So just take yourself through a person who has a really acute need.

SPEAKER_41: I need a bicycle because I'm starting my Uber Eats door dash job on Monday in Manhattan.

SPEAKER_12: So what do they do? That person might do a Google search. They might go to Facebook marketplace. They might type in, you know, electric bikes and wind up on a Reddit page. They might talk to their friends. They might go to a Facebook group of door dashers in New York. These are small niche communities. And the way you do it is by imagining you're the person. So here in this go to motion flowchart, you have high intent customers, no viable alternatives. So if there's no viable alternatives, you're making the product. That's crazy, right? Like so there's no door dash in the country. So you create zip line to bring it to people, right? Like there's no way to get delivery when you're far out there. Then you have a competitive

SPEAKER_41: space, opportunity cost, does the competitor have lock in? So if it was, say, broadband, and you live in a neighborhood that's only has Comcast, well, obviously, they're locked in, you have to then do

SPEAKER_12: something like cold outreach, as they put up point out here, if they're not locked in,

SPEAKER_61: like if people have options, you have spectrums available, Google Fiber is also available.

SPEAKER_47: Then you have to figure out, well, how do you compete with them? And then that's where maybe making an offer, et cetera. So these are, this is all really a good discussion. What you heard in the

SPEAKER_41: previous Y Combinator company that made the landing page, landing pages are so beautiful because you can make one in a lean startup movement. So Steve Blank and Eric Reese created this methodology called Lean Startup. He's an entrepreneur, and he's just really awesome. And he created this methodology, along with Eric Reese. Eric Reese wrote the book, Lean Startup. And you want to create a hypothesis and run an experiment. And then you can iterate on that with subsequent product releases. So what they did was they made a landing page, they sent people to the landing page, and you find out. What's amazing today is you can create landing pages in 15 minutes that look extraordinary using AI. You can create ads that look extraordinary in 15 minutes using AI. And then you still have to do the glue of sending them out there. Talking to people and networking and cold outreach also works. So literally finding 15 CFOs

SPEAKER_12: in your town and writing them a short email. Hi, I'm building this for CFOs. I'm a former CFO. I wonder if you had this issue, would love to get coffee with you. Or I, you know, at this link, you can see a little bit more about the product. And then you know if they clicked on it.

SPEAKER_41: Mm-hmm. Right? So there's all those signals. So there you go. Some tales from the trenches. We had another one, one of our startups, and this is in the presentation we gave last night at Founder

SPEAKER_37: University. There was a company that was doing gardening AI. So you would share it, you could share

SPEAKER_12: a picture of it. And when you share the picture of your, you know, absolutely sad backyard, the AI will make you some choices based on, you know, where you're located and tell you, here's the plants that would work well in Austin versus New England. They went on to a subreddit where somebody had posted and said, how do I, the same exact problem, what should I do with my garden here? And the person created a simple landing page and said, oh, I made some mockups for you and sent it there. And then the landing page just had, you know, use this tool or try this tool. They got 500 customers from this. Yeah,

SPEAKER_41: it's a neighbor bright is the name of the company. Yeah. So here is the Reddit post first time backyard owner says, Hey, I need help with landscaping this hill. My wife and I sold our condo, yada, yada. And then here's how they replied. They did something very savvy in the replies. That's worth pointing out predictably rational who works at neighbor. I said, yes, definitely a retaining wall. Here are some ideas with the retaining wall by the fence, which will require a leveling out the rest or keeping the slope, but building a terrorist garden with a link. And on the next slide, it sent them to a landing page for neighbor bright with these four gorgeous images and said, ready to try with your own yard, try it for free call simple call to action. What you notice here is they put the promotion on the landing page after giving value. So this is key. Whenever you're in a community, the communities, the vibrant ones are very attuned to people coming in and spamming or marketing the community. So what you want to do is help participate in the community

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SPEAKER_23: Okay, so today for office hours, we are going to start by talking to Jake and Daniel from BRX. They are building a tool for developers that allows developers to build model agnostic AI tools quickly. Given how many companies out there today, Lon and Jason want to use AI, it's certainly taking on a very large market. You can check it out at brx.ai. Please welcome to the show. It's Jake and Daniel.

SPEAKER_37: Okay, gentlemen, maybe you could tell the audience a little bit about what you're building. And then maybe you

SPEAKER_41: could ask me, you know, what are the challenges right now?

SPEAKER_201: So BRX is an orchestration in a runtime environment to build autonomous software. We combine the

SPEAKER_202: expressiveness of LMs and then the control of precision code of action to enable a really powerful environment to build these production grade AI systems. But the biggest thing is this enables our users to generate self-healing and autonomous products from this same product.

SPEAKER_41: Okay, great. So who are your customers? Let's kind of drill down a little bit. And do we have any customers yet? Or is it we're still building the product?

SPEAKER_201: Yeah, so our main customers, we target software developers for the most part that are working

SPEAKER_202: on building agentic operations and agentic processes that are building multiple systems that have the need for better indexing. It ends up being a problem for a lot of people when it comes to LMs. The capability to index and then use those same pieces of engineering as composables

SPEAKER_206: becomes a big issue. And yes, give us a real world example, if you can.

SPEAKER_201: Yeah. So when it comes to real world examples, we currently we currently have people that are using the platform to build systems across one. One of our bigger customers right now is building

SPEAKER_202: a system that can take in information about stories and then generate from that same story, audio and media files that then cross play to build a whole schema from that. So they're using research that they did to then determine what makes a person kick or what makes a user kick when it comes to some of the models. And then using that same pieces of data inside of the model to then process a story and generate a timeline to rebuild and reconstruct the story.

SPEAKER_128: Okay. Still confusing.

SPEAKER_12: Let's try to talk when the way you said it would be like, um, what kind of story are we talking about here? Give an actual real world example. So the audience actually understands it.

SPEAKER_201: Mm-hmm yeah. So they're working with studios. So developing stories that are going to be like little commercials or little ads or little, little like transformative pieces that they're going to be running over. And that's, that's where they get most of the value out.

SPEAKER_202: And it's about making sure that the story stays consistent across because the biggest problem, even with that, if you try to just make an AI, just auto-generate the whole thing, it'll get lost at certain steps, keep them miss the plot line. Other things will happen. So it's a lot about the coordination and orchestration of all those little pieces that need to happen and then letting those all compile back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_41: So now we're starting to get it. If I was a giant ad agency and I have customer a customer a is a beer company, they have a certain, uh, feeling that they like to invoke. It's, you know, uh, um, a new England beer company versus one in the South, uh, or vice versa. They want to tell stories and they want to get it right. So they want to make sure they're using the right customers. For some people that might be Dylan, uh, who is the woman from the Bud Light? Oh, Mulvaney. That might be

SPEAKER_214: Dylan Mulvaney. If it was in San Francisco and New York, that might not fly, you know, in, uh,

SPEAKER_12: New Orleans or, uh, in Texas as we've seen. So they might need to consistently think about how they pitch

SPEAKER_195: that product. The LLM might just go off to the races and not understand the context. Am I, am I

SPEAKER_202: getting it correct? A hundred percent. Yeah. And the biggest thing that we, we push on is control and precision in those events. And we've been building around that same idea of when you have a really specific operation or a process that you need the LLM to do, taking control and taking the reins in those parts and then leaving off the parts that you need, that like stochastic version that just runs out. You need a little bit of randomness, a fan to go get the data, vice versa. And then coming back to a really controllable system that you've moderated. Got it. So this is very

SPEAKER_41: hard to do if you were using an off the shelf. If you were using Grok, ChatGPT, or Claude, you would have a hard time doing this. So you need, if I'm correct, you need to use something more specific.

SPEAKER_61: I think it's the consistency, right? It's like those, they could make five different things,

SPEAKER_219: but the, it won't, it won't align with all of the other things it's created.

SPEAKER_181: A hundred percent. Yeah. What are your customers using in terms of an LLM? Are you giving them

SPEAKER_41: DeepSeek and then customizing that or trying to customize ChatGPT? How does that work where they

SPEAKER_201: get to pick? Yeah. So, so we let them pick completely. We keep all the leading foundational models from Google, Gemini, OpenAI, Anthropic, some of the DeepSeek models as well as the LLM models when

SPEAKER_202: they all come out so that you have that choice in play. The biggest, the biggest thing, and this is maybe a deeper aspect into the elements in the architecture is they all do different things better. So every, let's say OpenAI currently is leading in some kind of thinking or Anthropic is better at coding or Google has a bigger context window and it's allowing those users when they're building those pipelines. And this is one of the reasons why we say we have more precision. It's at any point in the chain of events, since we built the compiler in the engine, we can allow you to plug and play different pieces of the elements together.

SPEAKER_54: Got it. Amazing. So what's the challenge here? What, where are you at? Yeah.

SPEAKER_224: So I'll tackle this one, Jake. So we've been in development phase for about six months and by development phase, I mean, we've been building a product to really gain an initial wedge in the market. What this product essentially is, is it's a compiler grade infrastructure, turns any natural language or code requests into functional self-healing autonomous systems. So what we're going here is a PLG motion. We're trying to get this into market. And the biggest effect that we're trying to have on people is there's a company that hit the market, I'd say, beginning of 2025, I'm sure you're all familiar with Lovable. They've had this tremendous effect with giving this magical feel of AI, with generating UI and UX. This is actually a product that we developed months before they hit the market and timing just didn't work out. So we reflected backwards and thought about how do we take UI UX generation and take it to the next step. And it's much more than just the front end. It's generating the back end, the AI calls functional systems to offer anybody to drop a project into it. So think of this like an SOP, a workflow, a application that you want to create.

SPEAKER_227: Yeah. So you take a scope of work or, uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_224: And so just drop it right in and let our system take care of the rack. We'll build out your backend, your front end, all the AI calls. And it's actually a containerized agent in the fact of it's healing itself. It's monitoring itself. It's set it and forget it. So it's an extremely powerful tool that we're trying to bring to market. And we're trying to have that same effect of getting the magic from AI. But our question is leveraging this, uh, to direct audience. So with that PLG push, we're curious if it's got so many applied use cases and so many different aspects of the world can use it. Where would you hone in on for this drastic kind of PLG effective motion that we're trying to roll out

SPEAKER_128: in the next few months? Got it. So product led growth is what you mean by PLG. Correct.

SPEAKER_41: Um, and some products kind of sell themselves. So lovable it's, it's a really interesting product.

SPEAKER_12: You say, Hey, I want to build. And I put it in their annotated.com. My concept of had bought the domain name annotated.com and I signed up, I paid for it. Cause you have to pay for it. And I said, build me, uh, this thing, a Chrome extension. And it went to work and it made the output was a gorgeous webpage that looked very similar to like notion or some other designs. And it told me who it was going to be inspired by for that. And it creates this magical experience, but there's no publish to the web and get it up and running. So what you're talking about is maybe finishing the work

SPEAKER_224: that they've started. Am I correct? Yeah. And I also wouldn't put it as finishing the work they started. I think it's just giving a much deeper, more robust experience. A lot of people, we talked to one of our advisors about this a while ago, a funny use case, his phone was in algebra, in algebra in high school. And he used quad artifacts to generate this little artifact for himself. UI, UX, he played with it and clawed. It was great, but he wanted to share it. He wanted to like bring it to his classmate, Johnny. He wanted to publish it on web, like you're saying, and there was no tool for this. He wasn't a developer. He had no way to then publish this, monitor it, maintain the backend and have this as a functional application. So this all stemmed from this conversation that we had of how do you take these little artifacts, these little like hate to call them trinkets, but trinkets on the web that people can have fun with and bring them in to have real effect on the world, to build really powerful systems that basically anybody can generate. So I'm a data analyst and I want to bring my SOP and generate an agent to be able to do that. There's currently no system right now where I as a no

SPEAKER_229: code local user can just have that generated and actually work in a production great environment.

SPEAKER_41: So you are in the Canva zone, which is Canva was a design tool for non designers. So you have this

SPEAKER_12: really challenging moment where it's like, how do I find the vibe coders? How do I find the people who want to design, who don't know they want to design and they would normally hire a designer, right? This is a challenging moment in time for you to try to figure out. And you did point out like kind of the answer, which is the wow factor of lovable, pulled a bunch of people in the wow factor of Canva in a bunch of tiny use cases, making an invite probably was the one that was the biggest, right? Like everybody has to make a birthday party invite. So what's the equivalent of mom or dad need to make an invite for grandma's 80th birthday or for their five-year-old's birthday,

SPEAKER_41: but in this realm. And so I don't think there's an easy answer other than iterating and trying. And we just had a segment on finding your first customers to do this kind of thing. I bet you Canva found a bunch of moms and dads who were doing birthday parties and said, here's a way to make a birthday party invite faster, quicker, easier. And if you want to also make banners and birthday cards and other things, you can do that as well. And over time, what I like about what lovable did, but that there is a critique of is they're getting everybody to pay for it. But does it actually do something in the real world? Or is it like a toy that people are paying for, which would then make people concerned, Lon and Alex, about the quality of

SPEAKER_12: the revenue? Are people just going to go try it? Say that was interesting, but I didn't actually get value. I'm going to unsubscribe. And Canva I think is worth studying because Canva, yeah, I'm sure a bunch of people went in there and said, Oh, I can make an invite, but I don't actually have that many invites to make. I don't do that many parties. But the people who did make parties, they upsold them on the next thing, the next thing, would you like to make a t shirt? Would you like to make a mug? And then there's somebody in your friend group, like if you go to your group friend chat, who is the one who coordinates the trip to New Orleans, who makes the t shirts, and then says, everybody's got to wear this t shirt out when we go to Bourbon Street or whatever, you got to find that person who maybe wants to build the app and send it to their friends, make the Chrome extension and share it in their office. So it's going to be a lot of fun to kind

SPEAKER_98: of, I think, figure that out. And you will, it'll be feel fast. Yeah, try a lot of things. Exactly.

SPEAKER_23: Lots of experiments. I prepped our section in the notes about your company today. And I spent, I think I read every single word on your site twice, and I got what you do wrong. So I say that with nothing but love. And when I go to Lovable's website, we actually had the founder on the show. So it's shockingly clear what I can do with it. And so I would just say, That's a great piece of feedback, self healing, autonomous AI, just all of that makes me want to die inside. And I'm a nerd. So that's my two cents. I love you both. But like, I did not get all the

SPEAKER_43: way there. So if you're going to go PLG, go out into the market, it's got to be dumb, or at least or

SPEAKER_37: at least easy to understand advice. And you could make a landing page that's different than your corporate

SPEAKER_41: page. So the landing page could be build my app.com, or, you know, vibe code and app, you know,

SPEAKER_224: and you just try that as an experiment. I think that's a great idea with a separate landing page. And it actually goes along with something we did not too long ago, we scooped up the domain, my agent.ai. So I think branding everything underneath that and allowing for people to just build my agent and build their projects might be a really strong lever. So when you say my agent,

SPEAKER_12: that would mean to me more enterprise, just so you know, okay, because I don't think consumers are going to build agents, you know, to do these tasks. But I do know enterprises want to build them. So I might very much want to build an agent that goes out, listens to the top 10 podcasts, or goes to the top 100 podcasts, and pulls the advertisers from them and puts that advertiser into my CRM. That's what I think of when you say an agent, what is somebody, you know, what is my Athena assistant doing that the Athena assistant could make into an agent and do which is totally viable. And that

SPEAKER_41: would feel more like Zapier and be for more of a workflow nerd. I have a couple of those workflow nerds in our company, Lucas, Bianca, I got a whole group of them who like to make like workflows using

SPEAKER_136: Zapier and Notion and Coda and Slack, and they're going wild on this stuff. So I would think about

SPEAKER_41: there's apps, there's websites, there's agents, these are actually different things. So maybe

SPEAKER_12: why don't we try to come up with three great domain names and run three experiments. And, you know, once every three months, we release one of these and see what the reaction is. Or once a month, we release them and see which one gets the most interest.

SPEAKER_223: Yeah, I think that'd be really interesting.

SPEAKER_12: Chrome extensions are another very interesting world. I don't know if AI can make great Chrome extensions and publish them. But if you mastered that loop, man, there's a whole extension culture that is, you know, I would say billions of dollars of revenue, billions of users who are on their desktops using browsers, and they want a Chrome extension that, you know, does what SDR,

SPEAKER_136: sales development reps do, or, you know, polls, like I was talking about, like, doing lead gen,

SPEAKER_41: right, that always comes up as like a manual crummy task. I need to find all of the journalists who cover Chrome extensions, right, or who cover apps. Okay, I'm going to start doing Google searches, I want to have the Chrome extension, I want to catalog all that, and then be able to do outreach to them. I think you get the idea. So many different opportunities for you. But Alex, I think,

SPEAKER_12: gets the win here for closing the loop between your customers, and your presentation to them,

SPEAKER_136: let's create a honeypot for those customers, right? Yeah. And like, really sticky, delicious honey, like, go with like, what is the most insane thing, you know, you can promise them

SPEAKER_41: and deliver on in the most narrow focus that it becomes number one on product hunt. And if you want to post it on product hunt, I got I'm like one of the top 10 users, apparently. And so I don't

SPEAKER_12: do this for just anybody. But since you're a portfolio company, just email my team. And you know, Jackie Kelly, whoever you're working with, and we will, if you make something really good, I'll hunt it for you. And let's see if we can, we can hunt something. Okay, here we go. Cool.

SPEAKER_23: All right. Good job, boys. Thank you, guys. Next up, we are going to talk to Brian Watson from invite jet invite jet is building calendar marketing tools, not marketing calendar tools to flip it around, essentially allowing brands and companies to place ads and marketing material inside of prospect calendars. You can find out more at invite jet.com. Brian, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_41: So how's the business going? You went through the accelerator. And I know you got some very interesting feedback. What was the feedback in the accelerator? We introduce you to dozens of investors. And you've met probably or been exposed to hundreds during the program. What was the feedback? Did they get it? Did you present it? Well, in the beginning? Did you get better at

SPEAKER_111: presenting it? I know it's a polarizing concept sometimes to some for some people. Yeah, definitely

SPEAKER_00: polarizing. Absolutely. It was for me too. And it was first presented to me as a as an idea as the technical co founder. I came into it with a little bit of like, ik, but that very quickly went away. Um, but yeah, the accelerator was great. You know, we were in LA 33, we pitched, uh, you know, hundreds

SPEAKER_269: of investors. Um, and we had one on one meetings with, uh, I think my list is 136 readings now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: So it's been, it's been a journey. Um, but yeah, the, the accelerator was wonderful for the exposure,

SPEAKER_02: the intros, your team was wonderful. They were, um, you know, it, it was, there were moments of

SPEAKER_274: surprise and delight for sure. I like that. That's great. Absolutely. Trying to increase those,

SPEAKER_12: trying to increase those. I try to get back to in person. You, you didn't do much in person, right? You went to see Sequoia. Yep. Uh, that was great. It was amazing. Um, what did we,

SPEAKER_276: and then did you have a, do we have a kickoff for the accelerator? Uh, no, we had the one in-person

SPEAKER_00: event we've spent a week in SF. Uh, that was a great time, but yeah, we got to go out to Sequoia and pitch them and, you know, get some really good feedback. Uh, roll off was a great sport that day.

SPEAKER_279: Yeah. I was very interested in, in, in the calendar invite, um, you know, angle.

SPEAKER_280: So, so if we did more in person, you'd be into it. I'm taking it.

SPEAKER_281: Yeah, absolutely. I would be on, on a plane in a heartbeat.

SPEAKER_128: I love it. Okay. Good to know that I'm, I'm talking to my team about, you know, doing more in-person

SPEAKER_12: stuff. Uh, what's your challenge right now, Brian, any challenges with the business or things you're frustrated with or trying to get done? We just had a lead back out of a term sheet,

SPEAKER_00: which was, uh, which is a unique challenge in of itself. Okay. Yeah. You know, so there's, there's that that's going on right now. That's like the, the hair on fire problem that we're trying to solve right now. Where do we pick up the pieces and go from here? We we've luckily

SPEAKER_269: had a really positive, um, spin of things, re-engaging firms that were already interested, you know, before the term sheet was signed. Um, so, you know,

SPEAKER_136: signed term sheet and it didn't happen. You signed it, you went to due diligence and then

SPEAKER_41: they gave you a reason for, you know, backing out. Sometimes I'll be honest, they, uh, will tell you a reason. That's not the truth. Yeah. That's what I, that's the advice I've been getting a lot

SPEAKER_293: lately too, is, is that's probably not true. And I don't want to mention the firm here. I don't want to.

SPEAKER_12: No, absolutely not. But I do think this is very brave of you to talk about because I've been in the situation myself with my own companies and had somebody back out. A lot of times people will make an investment and then maybe they don't have the credibility in their firm to get it through the other partners because there's some partnership dynamic going on. So if Alex, Lon and I were partners in a VC firm, uh, Lon's last two deals didn't work out. Alex is pissed off at Lon. Lon comes to us with a third deal. We're like, Hey, this is the same movie over and over again. You want to do consumer packaged goods. We know it doesn't work. And then Lon kind of was a hot shot and sent the term sheet before we approved it. And we have a rule two out of three. He can't get consensus that

SPEAKER_136: happens. It could be just not a team player, but that's gonna happen. Or, you know, they could see

SPEAKER_41: something like a lawsuit, which isn't the case here, but there could be a legal action and they say, Oh, you didn't tell us about that. Or your accounting could have been off, which wasn't the case here. I think it was for you, the customers in your pipeline, uh, and the customer references were good, but maybe not there. They w they had some maybe higher benchmarks. They were looking to see in this, what I'll call your company as a nascent company or a year, one or two company. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. Six months in. Yeah. So, but you know, we've been on average growing 50% month over month.

SPEAKER_269: Um, great. And so, you know, things are, things are going gangbusters. And so it was a little bit, a little bit offsetting, a little bit off putting, but you know, we're putting the pieces

SPEAKER_00: back together. It's, it's totally fine. I mean, you only get hurt on a roller coaster if you get

SPEAKER_12: off in the middle, right? Yeah. I like that. That's actually very true. Yeah. Keep the seatbelt on. Yeah. What I'll also say is, did you diligence this firm before you went into it? Did you talk to other founders? You can be totally honest about this because not everybody has the time. Did you talk to two other founders who accepted money from them? Absolutely. So it was our intention to,

SPEAKER_00: however, when we asked the, you know, how wires get crossed and sometimes things get left out, you know? Sure. Um, so I, I assume that's what happened. I don't think that they were intentionally dodging us or anything like that, but, you know, we asked for a couple of founders that we could talk to, but we're never given those actual references to that we could go talk to. However, so, you know, it's not like we were pounding on the door asking for those things though. So we, we did ask once and,

David Friedberg: and, and, you know, it was not deliberate. So that could be the reason this happened is you

SPEAKER_41: asked for references. Maybe they don't have great references. This is why I love the back door reference. What's the back door reference. That's when you, or a dark reference, you go find the references and you go do it yourself, right? You don't have to, uh, take their references. And here's,

SPEAKER_181: if you want to get really, you know, dark arts, I have some dark arts, these things exist between the light and the dark sides, the little Ashoka kind of situation. Um, you know, you could look at their,

SPEAKER_136: um, list of investments on crunch base. Yeah. Right. Which they can't take things on and off

SPEAKER_41: of crunch base that easily or another service. There's other ones out there, or you can look

SPEAKER_128: at press tech crunch stories, whatever, a funding announcements. Then you look at their profile page of their portfolio. And then you look for which ones are not on there. Yeah. Yeah. So there are

SPEAKER_12: two, two founders in the history of our firm that I did not see eye to eye with. I'll make an amalgamation here. I felt like there were things occurring that were not on the up and up to be graceful about it. I'm not going to say like, but these were pretty gnarly situations where I had to say to the founder in one case, this isn't a fit. How about you give us our money back? We rip up the term sheet. The founder immediately folded and gave us our money back and we ripped up the term sheet. In another case, I had to threaten to sue a founder because they did things that I thought could get our firm, other investors, other employees, board members, et cetera, into legal trouble. And I spent $90,000 on legal bills and said, Hey, if you don't give us our money back and you know, we resolve this, then I'm going to file this lawsuit in Delaware. I'd never thought I would ever have to say that. But you know, in that case, I felt like this was securities fraud that was occurring and I didn't want anything to do with it. Yeah. They, in that case, they folded as well. You're not going to find those two people on our profile pages. Sure. You might find them in

SPEAKER_39: crunch base. I don't know. Somebody might be doing that right now. Yeah. You know, and trying to figure that out. So that's like a dark arts thing. Sure. And you know what? Not all VCs and founders

SPEAKER_41: are going to get along. Newsflash. People who are capital allocators, unique group of people in the world, often former founders, founders, very unique people in the world. You put them two

SPEAKER_339: together, they're not always going to get along. Small tangent, uh, for, for just a sec, but yeah,

SPEAKER_00: this one's hilarious. There's a long story to it, but the long and the short is basically there was one investor who offered to invest in us. I met him through telegram. I used to work in crypto. So I know a lot of, you know, people in crypto. Um, and so he offered to invest in us, asked us to come to Amsterdam to meet him because he doesn't do business without a handshake deal first and seeing you face to face. Um, and then, so I went back door and started looking this guy up, looked like he was a great guy, looked like he was investing through family offices and things like that. However,

SPEAKER_02: uh, it turned out the man I was talking to on a zoom meeting was actually not who he said he was.

SPEAKER_03: He was using some sort of AI filter to filter his face and pretend to be this person and try to get

SPEAKER_07: me to come to Amsterdam. So always do your research. That's, that's the moral of this story in

SPEAKER_345: Amsterdam, like kidnapping, throwing you in a canal. Yeah. You're following your instinct is a good

SPEAKER_350: idea. You don't want to get, if you get that tingly feeling, it's glad you've still both kidneys.

SPEAKER_39: If anybody in Amsterdam office to take you out on their like homemade submarine.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. You're about to get taken. Don't get taken. So true. Like I said, things have been going pretty

SPEAKER_02: gangbusters. Um, we've got, uh, there, there has been a little bit of churn. It's not anything to like, you know, turn your nose up at or anything like that three to 5%, you know, pretty, pretty standard

SPEAKER_00: stuff, but that's monthly every month. And so I engage these people that, that churn and I always ask them, you know, I'm product obsessed. So I want that. I want their experience to be great. They say, Hey, so it's great product. Obviously it works or we wouldn't have used it. It's really churned up revenue for us, which is great, but we don't see ourselves using it every single month. And so that's why we churned this month is because we don't see ourselves paying the 500 buck a month subscription or $150 a month subscription for this month. And so we churned this month, but we may be back in three months. So we've started thinking of ways to, we we've got an idea of a way to do, to, to combat that, but I'd love to hear your opinion. So this is what happens with

David Friedberg: experimental software often. Yeah. And so, you know, people will investors look at the churn rate,

SPEAKER_41: you'll look at it. You know, when something comes out like MailChimp, right. When it first came out,

SPEAKER_12: I got to do a mailing. I've got this mailing list. I have to send some emails. People would sign up for the trial, send the email, shut the account down. And I had this issue too, with like a, you know, where you're looking at the SaaS software and going, is it what, why is it so expensive? And I don't get enough use utilization out. And I loved MailChimp for a long time. There were advertisers here on the program for many years, but they changed their pricing model. And the pricing model was based on how many emails we had. And I tried to explain this to them over and over again after they got sold. We have a half million emails because we do these events, but we email people twice a year. You're charging us as if we're, and it's like unlimited sending. So we're getting charged with this model of unlimited sending, but we don't need unlimited sending, but you're charging us like a dollar, not a dollar a year, like 10 cents a year per user. So you want $50,000 a year. Many of these emails are dead. So now I've got to clean the emails off the list, or I have to take these five mailing lists for these events, take them down, then re-upload them, lose the records. And they're like, you're not our typical customer, Jason. We're working with the gap, the gap sending an email, you know, seven times a day. So I think it really has to do with

SPEAKER_41: the ideal customer profile. For $6,000, most people are not going to care. If you're a professional marketer, they're going to just care. Does that $6,000 result in more than $6,000 in income coming in? Right. So I think you have to look at the category of customer. If I described a publication, they may be very budget conscious and we know it's not a huge business. How about we give it to you

SPEAKER_12: for this rate, $500 a year. And then if you have customers like this record company, Warner Records will sell into Warner Records alongside you to do their stuff. See, I think you have to parse who the customers are and the feedback you're getting. As an event producer, I was just not a good customer for MailChimp. They wanted big marketing agencies, people who are monetizing, you know, these mailing lists and using them regularly. I moved everything to Substack. I'm a terrible customer for Substack because I don't have subscriptions turned on. So there's no 10% of the revenue. I'm using them as a free mail service.

SPEAKER_364: They're not interested in that.

SPEAKER_12: But they're like, okay, it's good for them because they want to build the records in their system and they're playing a flat rate. So I want to ask you, who are the, as you're six months into this journey,

SPEAKER_285: who do you think your ideal customer profile is?

SPEAKER_00: So I'll say this, the top of the mountain for us looks like invite jet is the Twilio or SendGrid of calendar invites, right? Got it. You know, and so those, those businesses, when I look at those businesses, they are both marketing as well as transactional, right? SendGrid hit it big with the, with the transactional side of things. And so we're thinking about that transactional side as well as marketing. Actually this weekend, we're, we're doing a soft launch of our third party API and Zapier integration so that people can, you know, automate, automate this, these calendar invites into their flow. So you can think of like a rest, a restaurant reservation system using calendar invites.

SPEAKER_318: Oh, that's powerful. So if this restaurant is doing cassoulet Sundays, that's great.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah. So the ideal customer profile right now has been, uh, an e-commerce brand, right?

SPEAKER_269: Six to nine figures, analytic savvy. Um, they want to use it for the marketing use case, right? Yes. Which has been great. And so for, for them, it makes sense to have this.

SPEAKER_00: Hey, as you play sort of get an allocation of, of invites to send every month, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're basically buying an allowance of, of invites.

SPEAKER_252: Yeah. Yeah. Consumption based.

SPEAKER_269: Yeah, exactly. So, but however, with, if we shift this model a little bit to include the transactional side of things, I think it, I think it helps with those folks that churned from the e-commerce side of things. If we go to more of a usage based pricing, um, in terms of like, do a low platform fee so that we do have MRR, but also do a usage based fee, you know, is it it $2 per thousand invites you send or whatever it may be so that people can, you know, justify the $99 or the $300 platform fee that they're spending every month. Um, and then they, you know, can spend more on top of that if they're actually using the service, which we've seen up into the right numbers in terms of our monthly active users each month and how much they're using it.

SPEAKER_41: Okay. You know, at this stage, I think charging a fee that is, um, robust enough for you to keep growing and investing in the product cycle and keep building these adjacencies and features and the

SPEAKER_62: speed and reliability of the service, you know, uh, while giving them so much value that they think

SPEAKER_12: you're stupid. So this is the line, right? So like, I would look at something like beehive is so inexpensive for us that I'm like, beehive is a great deal. Squarespace is an incredible deal. I can't believe I'm paying hundreds of dollars a year to get that much value when I would think

SPEAKER_41: I should be paying hundreds a month, like for Squarespace is beautiful. It's got all these features. That's true. But if you told me it was 500 a month or 500 a year, I'd be like,

SPEAKER_12: I would pay either. So that's why I become loyal to them. You know, something like notion coda and slack at eight to $15 per person per year, per month. I don't even think about that price. Yeah. Like it's so low, eight, 15 or 30 is so low. I'm not even really considering it because I get so much value and that's the Tim O'Reilly give so much more that people don't even think

SPEAKER_41: about it. And I wouldn't over index on, you seem to be so thoughtful that you might be respectfully, Brian, over indexing on the cheap people. Yeah. If a third of your customers are not saying it's too expensive, then you're charging too little. So both of these things can be true that we're talking about here in terms of pricing. What I would be more interested in is what's the

SPEAKER_12: next adjacency, a bold adjacency you can add to this that, you know, really makes it impossible not to use this tool. So I am a fan of Kith, K-I-T-H, which makes, you know, does drop or Nick's gear. Sometimes they do new balance. There's a really incredible design. I'm sure you've heard of them. Sure. And I would just pay, I told them I can just charge me a hundred or 500 bucks a year to be part of a VIP program. And I, I kind of rolled my own VIP with him through DMS, but I was like, just let me pay you a hundred dollars a year. You put the drops for VIPs a day, two days before the regular drop. Let us buy what we want. Yeah. And then you would have a subscription fee. So I was wondering, have you thought about charging to be part of a VIP program to get the calendar invites?

SPEAKER_00: I gotcha. In other words, making it a revenue stream. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's an interesting, interesting idea. That's, that is exactly how some people have used the product. So we've got plenty of e-commerce brands that have these sort of VIP lists, uh, if you will. Um, and you know,

SPEAKER_02: we integrate with MailChimp members pay though, to be part of that. I, I assume they do. I'm not

SPEAKER_136: entirely sure, um, what their, what their business model is has a, the cuts clothing company that

SPEAKER_41: makes like black t-shirts. I like cuts has, uh, and I think maybe Roan is the other one. I like that makes black t-shirts. Um, both of them, I think have a hundred dollar a year program where you get 20% off each order. So when you hit $500, it pays for itself and you get free shipping. It's kind of like their own Amazon prime. Yeah. I think like helping people build that. I also like your affiliate link idea. Oh yeah. Integrating with the affiliate systems. That's a big business. We have an investment in a company called genius link that produces like those smart links that if somebody clicks on it in France, it goes to the right place to buy a piece of clothing in France.

SPEAKER_128: If they click it in Canada, it sends them to the right place all by IP. Right. Yep. And then people can use those to, to make affiliates. I like affiliates. I like the idea

SPEAKER_41: of you maybe adding Klaviyo like email features. I wonder if some of your customers can't afford Klaviyo and Klaviyo's, you know, um, margin is your opportunity to like make a freer version of,

SPEAKER_12: you know, some of the Klaviyo features. I don't know how they charge per record or HubSpot. So, you know, that's the other possibility with the business. I think when investors hear about your business, they're kind of like, Oh, icky. Yeah. Oh no. Genius. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Oh, what can we add to it? It literally happens every time. Yeah. It's like this very interesting journey that I went through as well. And it was interesting, even in our own venture firm, people were like, I don't want that. Yeah. I don't want it to be marketed to on my calendar. If you switch it to membership, like I did in our discussion. Yeah. And changes everybody's.

SPEAKER_00: I think the transactional side of things does that as well. So you can think like, if I'm making a booking appointment at a nail salon or a tattoo parlor or a restaurant reservation or a flight or hotel, that stuff should be on my calendar. Right. But it's not right now. We're just getting email and SMS reminders of those things. And so, you know, you can think of those highly personal transactions where you're making a booking, um, that, that should be on my calendar. And I would totally like a thousand percent welcome that. Right. And so that's a, we, we know that that's a big

SPEAKER_279: business and we, that's, that's something that we want to go after.

SPEAKER_41: So many great ideas. The API is going to be a great long-term thing for you to do. Yeah. I'm in love with your business. How can people find out more and become a customer or try

SPEAKER_00: the product? They can go to invitejet.com. Um, and if you want to contact me, I'm Brian at invitejet.com. My co-founder Paul at invitejet.com. We are, you know, very, very open and personable.

SPEAKER_40: So give us a shout anytime. Can we run a test, uh, to my Founder University team. Let's get all the

SPEAKER_41: Founder University emails. Okay. Let's ask them if they want to be invited to sessions like this, like office hour sessions. Oh yeah. And, um, it's a great idea. We'll test like just sending an office hour session to them and putting it on their calendar, you know, for content. It could be

SPEAKER_12: interesting, like for our portfolio, et cetera. Like, Hey, if you want to come, it's optional. Do people do it with their mailing list without asking for permission first? Like if I had like 400 founders and I invited them to something, I don't think they would get upset.

SPEAKER_00: No, like it depends. Like we're not, we, we, we have a bunch of spam blocks in place, right? We've got stuff in place so that if you're using it for a B2B purpose and you're just booking time on people's calendars, we're going to know, we're going to stop you from that. But we do have, but if it's an intimate list, like the one you were talking about, we've actually got, um, a fund here in town, triangle tweener fund, Scott Wingo shout out, uh, CEO of spiffy. Um, he uses it for his fund, um, to send events and, and get, you know, round up all these CEOs for, for events and, and investors and LPs and his fund for these events. And he says, you know, it's a amazing tool because it ends up right on their calendar. I don't have to send them an email with a button that says, add to calendar. And then they have to, you know, go through,

SPEAKER_12: So he doesn't mind doing it and then people say yes or no. And then somebody on his team looks at that or looks at your back end and understands.

SPEAKER_412: He said the uptick in attendance has been great because of, uh, because of the use.

SPEAKER_12: I'm all in. All right, listen, continued success. Awesome. Keep the growth going. Sales solves everything. So you get that chart that's growing, but 10% a month, you will be fundable indefinitely in your entrepreneurial career. You get between 10 and 20% month over month growth. You'll be fine. You got the three, four or 5% churn. That's normal.

SPEAKER_98: And so if you can just grow the, the number, uh, the revenue number, I mean, 10% month over month,

SPEAKER_03: you'll be right now, but 50% is our number right now. And yeah, we, we hope to keep it there.

SPEAKER_41: It will be less lumpy when it's bigger numbers and you know, the, that you figure out your pricing for sure. Great job. All right, everybody, this has been another incredible episode of this week in startups. For Lon Harris, for Alex Wilhelm, I'm Jason Calacanis. You can follow the docket this week in startups.com slash docket. And we will see you all next time on Monday. Bye-bye.