SPEAKER_00: This Week in Startups is brought to you by Walker Corporate Law, a boutique law firm specializing in the representation of entrepreneurs. Visit them at walkercorporatelaw.com. And Moo, an online print and design company that helps you stand out and make a lasting first impression. Stand out like an IPO-bound idea at a hackathon with premium business cards from moo.com. Jason is back at the Stockholm Tech Fest, sitting down with Nami Zaharing Halam, the Stockholm-based unicorn with over a hundred million users worldwide, followed by a bonus segment with Tyler Crowley and the Future of Finance panel.

SPEAKER_03: Hey everybody, welcome to This Week in Startups.

SPEAKER_09: I'm your host, Jason Calacanis, and we're here at the Stockholm Tech Fest. Excellent. And it's been an amazing day here in Stockholm. As you know, seven unicorns in Stockholm alone. The Nordic area is on fire, it is the most productive area in all of Europe for entrepreneurship. And Tyler Crowley, who used to be on This Week in Startups on a regular basis, has moved here. And he runs essentially the launch festival, it's called the Stockholm Tech Fest here in Stockholm. And it was extraordinary to be here. We're only halfway through the day, thousands of people attending. And a lot of the buzz today is about a company called Truecaller, which I've heard rumors is now the seventh unicorn here in Stockholm. And Truecaller is a really fascinating product, which we'll get into. And I have the co-founder and chief strategy officer previously. He was the CEO, Nami Zaharing Halam. Yes. I got it right. You got it right. Nami, welcome to This Week in Startups. Thank you. So in America, I think a lot of people don't know what Truecaller is. Explain to people what Truecaller is, and how did you guys come up with the idea?

SPEAKER_13: So Truecaller is simply an app that gives you different services. One of them is Caller ID, and another one, which is very beloved, is spam blocking.

SPEAKER_16: Got it.

SPEAKER_09: So how does this work, this app? To me, it feels a lot like Plaxo, the good parts of Plaxo, which I'm sure you remember from back in the day. How does the product work?

SPEAKER_18: Because it's primarily an Android phenomenon, but it's now on iOS. How does it work on a technical basis?

SPEAKER_19: Well, technically, if you have 3G coverage, while we receive a phone call, we will...

SPEAKER_13: The application sits silently in the background, listening for the phone call. And if there's a phone call from someone you don't have in your phone book...

SPEAKER_23: Okay, not in the address book. Exactly.

SPEAKER_13: Then we check with our Truecaller directory, which is a collaborative directory made by all our users.

SPEAKER_09: So when you open the app up, it asks for access to your phone book, like a lot of apps do. It sucks the entire phone book out, which is a scary moment, we'll talk about that in a minute. And then it puts all those phone numbers into the cloud, into your cloud. Now, if I wrote, you know, this is my friend, you know, I don't know, John, from this company, but I put last name, super annoying sales guy. Does it put that into the cloud? Or if I put like, oh, I met this person, Bill, in Vegas, does it put Bill Vegas into the cloud? Because people do use their phone book to make notes about a person, I would be a little bit concerned, because I have written notes about people, like, I don't want those notes going public. So where does it get the actual name of the person, and does it put in annoying sales guy?

SPEAKER_13: So, this is a very common question, and I think it's good to kind of clear that one out immediately. Yeah, please do. Basically, what Truecaller does, it aggregates these names, and it doesn't look at anything

SPEAKER_19: else than the name and the phone number. Got it. First name, last name. First name, last name, and that's it. Okay. And then, when, let's say, you've called me Nami Truecaller. Super cute.

SPEAKER_34: Super cute for your last name.

SPEAKER_19: Super cute. Yeah, yeah. I have really nice eyes. Yeah. So... Ah, yeah. Exactly. So, you save me as that. Uh-huh. That will not be enough to show that information. So, it's necessary...

SPEAKER_08: What do you have to have, like three people put the same name?

SPEAKER_37: It's, let's say it's an arbitrary number, but it's much higher than one. Got it. And what happens is that we have algorithms which check, basically, with a decay function, how these numbers are being republished, and then we're able to quickly learn if someone, for instance, if this phone number is being reused by someone else, and we can change the number really quickly.

SPEAKER_09: Uh-huh. So, unless multiple people put stunning eyes for your last name, which is a distinct possibility, Nami. Absolutely. It's not going to put something like that in there. Right. So, what about spam? So, we talked a little bit about spam. I don't think I have any spammers in my phone book. So, how does a spammer get identified in the system?

SPEAKER_16: Let me call you, ask you a question back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_17: Do you answer phone calls from unknown numbers? Well, I'm very important to you understand.

SPEAKER_09: Like, I can't be, you know, I'm a celebrity in the United States. I can't be just answering the phone. So, no. I send it right to...

SPEAKER_46: No.

SPEAKER_09: Of course, nobody answers a phone number that they don't know, I think, in 2015. Do they?

Chamath Palihapitiya: They do. They do? They do. And that's why you don't think you have spam. But actually, you do.

SPEAKER_09: You just don't answer. The second number, I don't know. I hit end. I just send it. And then what I do is... Or, you know, Apple lets you do the thing that says, I'm sorry, I'm not available.

SPEAKER_44: Where I just put, who is this? Yeah.

SPEAKER_19: Right. And that's a very common use case in the US. But that's not how it is in most parts of the world.

SPEAKER_51: So, people answer the phone and it's a telemarketer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_19: And it's actually not really the telemarketer's fault either.

SPEAKER_37: In many cases, it's actually that these... I mean, we're growing a lot in emerging markets. And in emerging markets, companies try to reach their potential customers.

SPEAKER_19: But they don't have emails to spam their customers. Right. So, how do they spam them? Well, they spam them through phone calls and text messages.

SPEAKER_09: I've heard in certain countries like India, the number of telemarketers is insane. Yeah. Which area is adoption due to spam the biggest?

SPEAKER_44: Which country would you say?

SPEAKER_19: Honestly, what we've seen is that the spam phenomenon is not specific to regions.

SPEAKER_13: It's rather the call behavior.

SPEAKER_37: Like what you said, that you don't pick up the call. That's a very California behavior. If you ask someone in Texas, that's not going to be the answer. Got it. So, spam calls happens everywhere in the world and text messages too, which is why we launched

SPEAKER_60: True Messenger.

SPEAKER_09: Okay. So, the feature I thought was the most fascinating was you can do a search for anybody in the database.

SPEAKER_18: And if you search, let's say you search for my name, Calacanis, it's a unique name. There's only a handful of people who have it in the world. It was misspelled when we got to Ellis Island in America. Only a dozen people might come up with that name and they're all in my immediate family. You can request a phone number? How does that feature work? Is that a global directory or is it a friend of friend directory? How does it work?

SPEAKER_13: Well, it is. So, what we've built is a global directory when it comes to your phone number.

SPEAKER_37: So, if you would call me, then I would see your full name, right? Because it's my right to know who's calling me. That's what you believe.

SPEAKER_19: Well, 150 million users would agree with me, but yes, yes, it is. Now, if you twist it and say, well, now I'm looking for Jason.

SPEAKER_37: So, I type in Jason, unless we have friends in common, I'm not going to be able to find you. And if I do have friends in common, so we've actually built our own graph. We're not using Facebook or anyone else. Right.

SPEAKER_51: You've got your own phone graph, as it were. Address book graph. Right.

SPEAKER_68: And so, we call it the contact graph, by the way. The contact graph.

SPEAKER_67: Yeah. So, you can search for people who are friends of friends, basically.

SPEAKER_37: And you can request their phone number, at which point you would get a text message saying, Nami Saring Lam is requesting your phone number. Here's Nami's details. Do you want to share your details?

SPEAKER_54: Oh, so a little peace offering. Here's the details first. It's always an opt-in.

SPEAKER_19: Got it.

SPEAKER_09: All right. In this commercial break, I want you to tell me about the phenomenal growth of this product, and how you landed Sequoia Capital, the number one venture capital firm in the United States, as a partner when we get back on This Week in Startups.

SPEAKER_72: Hey, everybody. Hey, everybody. Let me stop for a moment, this amazing episode, and tell you about the Walker Corporate Law Group. Yes, they are a boutique law firm that specializes in the representation of entrepreneurs and startups. And Scott Walker is the founder of that company, and he is a personal friend of mine, and he does a great job working with startups. I have literally introduced him to dozens, maybe hundreds now, of startups, and they all rave about the services of the Walker Corporate Law Group because their lawyers have decades of experience. You're not going to get junior associates who are getting on-the-job training with your startup. No. They're going to help you with mergers and acquisitions, licensing, terms of service, privacy policies, formation, and all this kind of stuff, fundraising, and they're really great at it, and they do fixed fees. They don't want to surprise people with crazy, crazy bills. They think that billable hours can reward inefficiency, so they'll just be fair with you. And that's what I love about them, because if you're a startup, you don't want to get that sticker shock and get a huge, huge bill, make sure you use the Walker Corporate Law Group. And you can do that by calling Scott Walker at 415-979-9998, 415-979-9998. You can email him, scott at walkercorpretlaw.com, or you can visit walkercorpretlaw.com as well. scott at walkercorpretlaw.com. And let Scott Ed Walker on Twitter know, at Scott Ed Walker, know that you, hey, you watch the program and you appreciate him supporting independent media like This Week in Startups. One of my oldest advertisers, one of my oldest friends in the industry, just a great guy, a total mensch, and he really takes care of the startups who work with him.

SPEAKER_74: Thank you, Scott Walker, for supporting This Week in Startups. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_08: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to This Week in Startups. We're here at the Stockholm Tech Fest.

SPEAKER_09: Very good. And my guest is Nami Zaring Halam, who is the co-founder of True Caller, which is a true phenomenon on a global basis now. Nice. You like that?

SPEAKER_76: There you go.

SPEAKER_09: True phenomenon. A true phenomenon.

SPEAKER_18: How many people have downloaded True Caller on Android and iOS, either individually or you can combine them, I guess?

SPEAKER_13: Well, across all platforms, we have over 150 million users.

SPEAKER_54: 150 million downloads? Right. Users. Users.

SPEAKER_13: I mean, you have to download. Yeah. So we don't count downloads like downloads. We count users who've actually activated that.

SPEAKER_18: Right. So you have more downloads than that, but you have 150 people who've activated. And I would think on average they have 200 people, 300 people in their address book. Does that mean you have somewhere in the order of a billion people in your address book graph? I'm sure there's duplicates. So is it 500 million, a billion? How many people in the graph now?

SPEAKER_16: Well, you can search for almost 2 billion people. 2 billion of the 7 billion people on the planet. Yes.

SPEAKER_17: And... So it's a slow growth startup. And...

SPEAKER_84: How many people on the planet actually have a mobile? I think that might be 5 billion, 4 or 5 billion.

SPEAKER_83: So you actually probably have 40% of the planet in this app already in how many months?

SPEAKER_82: Well, we've actually been going at it for five years. Five years?

SPEAKER_84: Yeah. So when was the inflection point? Because it seems like everybody found out about the product recently and it had its boom

SPEAKER_09: phase in the last year or two. What happened? When did it tip over into becoming such a huge business?

SPEAKER_13: I think what you just said is probably true for most Western markets except for Sweden.

SPEAKER_37: Okay. Or the Nordic countries. Actually, we were big in the Nordic countries from the start. But it wasn't... Well, it was 2011 where we started to grow in Middle East, in Lebanon.

SPEAKER_19: It was kind of, you know, all of a sudden a friend of ours called my co-founder, Alan,

SPEAKER_37: and he was saying, you know, you guys are on the news, primetime news, in Lebanon. And we're like, what? Why? Because Truecaller had grown so big in Lebanon and they were doing this piece about apps and they were talking about Truecaller for all two minutes. And, you know, we looked it up on YouTube. We were watching the interview and we're like, what happened? And we went back and looked at our data. And we realized that we've... There's a very strong kind of recipe that we can maintain to grow in different markets.

SPEAKER_54: And what is that basic recipe? Is it just finding out who the super routers are? Who the main hubs are of telephone numbers?

SPEAKER_60: It's not that. But I'm not going to go into the details.

SPEAKER_37: But what I can tell you is that it's based on that you give a good user experience. And you can just imagine if you would be using Google and you would only get, you know, a search... Like when you search for something and you would only get a hit every second or third time. How would you think about that user experience?

SPEAKER_96: It'd be pretty bad. Not memorable.

SPEAKER_37: And then you can probably draw similarities with what we're doing. Because what we're doing is actually search.

SPEAKER_84: So if I can get the identity of a phone number that's not in my address book 50% of the time or 60% of the time, one out of two times I become addicted, two out of three times there's some number. Sounds reasonable. Okay.

SPEAKER_09: So at some point Sequoia Capital did your A round or B round? When did they come in as an investor? And how did they find out about your company? Were they just monitoring the top charts?

SPEAKER_19: So Sequoia India came through... We've actually...

SPEAKER_13: We were speaking to them already in 2012. At the time, we were starting to grow rapidly in India. But the smartphone penetration in India was still quite small. In 2013, they reached back to us and said, Guys, we're still expecting your call back. When are you raising your next round? At which point, you know, we've told this story before, but it's a really good story. So I'll tell it again. Basically, we had heard that the Klarna founders were... So you know about Klarna, right?

SPEAKER_104: Michael Moritz is on the board from Sequoia.

SPEAKER_13: Right. And we had heard that Klarna founders had told Sequoia, You know, if you want to invest, you have to come to Stockholm. So we were feeling kind of bold and we said, If you want to invest, you have to come to Stockholm. The next week they came to Stockholm and we were like... From India or from US? From India. I got it. We met Mike Moritz as well. We actually chose Sequoia India specifically because we were growing so big in India. And we wanted someone who had local presence.

David Friedberg: Okay.

SPEAKER_09: So this sounds like a phenomenal app. It seems like it's got a pretty great use case, which is everybody hates spam. You got rid of spam. Feels a lot like Gmail to me, right? That was like the value proposition of Gmail. Unlimited storage plus no spam. So when we get back from this next commercial break, I want to know how will this ever make money when we get back on This Week in Startups?

SPEAKER_111: Now I got my own company. No need to tell you that I make money.

SPEAKER_72: Hey, everybody. Let me take a moment here to thank Moo for sponsoring This Week in Startups. And to let you know I use Moo cards all the time. I am in love with Moo.com. It is the best way to break through the business card clutter that you see out there. They have beautifully crafted and unique business cards that you can make from their Square to their Triple Vic Lux to a full line of business stationery. And they use something called Printfinity, which allows you to take different images and put them on different cards so you can have a portfolio in your pocket. The way I do this is I take different pictures from our events with me interviewing people, one with Mark Cuban, one with Chamath, one with Chris Saka. Put those all on the back of the cards. When I give out cards, we're like, oh, what's this image? Oh, you interviewed Mark Cuban? When did you do that? You get the idea. It's really beautiful to be able to put a different image on the back of different cards. And they have quality and tailored collections that are just rich, thick, and beautifully crafted. You can really see and feel the difference. And you can choose from one of their exclusive designs or you can upload your own. New premium features include the spot gloss finish, the raised spot finishes, and my favorite, the foil finishes. So go ahead and visit Moo.com for more details. I love Moo.com. I've been using them for close to a decade now. It's the only thing you need for your startup or for even a big business. It's super easy to use. It's fun. Go visit Moo.com and you'll just love the product. I'm absolutely sure of that. So thanks again, Moo. Let's get back to this great episode.

SPEAKER_115: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to this weekend's Startups.

SPEAKER_09: We're here at the Stockholm Tech Fest. It's a really great crowd here, as you can tell. They're pretty awesome. And it's great for the first time. People know I'm Greek because of the last name. Some people know I'm Irish because of my middle name, McCabe. What people also don't know is that I am a quarter Swedish. So this is my first time back to my homeland and it's great to be here. Thank you for having me. And so, and I hear there's a TV show here where they take people who are of Swedish descent and then they find their relatives. Their relatives. Oh, yeah. So if anybody is doing that TV show, I'd love to do that TV show. If anybody, I might be related to somebody here. My guest is Nami Zaring Halam and he is the co-founder, formerly CEO, now chief strategy officer of Truecaller, which is a unicorn here. You can go download the app Truecaller for Android and for iOS. The company's raised $70 million now across three or four rounds of financing. And 1.7 billion people in the phone book and growing. You're adding 300,000 people a day?

SPEAKER_125: 300,000 users every day. Every day. Every day. Every day. Wow. We're very proud.

SPEAKER_84: That is phenomenal. Yeah. That is 100 million people run rate for the year. You'll be at a quarter billion people. Facebook has over a billion. But you're almost as big as, you'll be as big as Twitter soon. Do you realize that? Has that sunk in yet?

SPEAKER_19: I mean, you know, a couple of years ago, I was sitting together with Alan. We were looking at our internal graphs, the metrics, and we were at 5,000 new users every day. And we were thinking, you know, if only we would reach 50,000, then, you know, the world would be so much greater. Today, we're at 300,000.

SPEAKER_13: And what I really have learned during this journey is that it's not so much how many people you're adding, but how many people you retain.

SPEAKER_14: Ah.

SPEAKER_09: So, having a bucket without holes in it, we call it the leaky bucket. Right. You want to not have a leaky bucket. Your retention must be spectacular, is it?

SPEAKER_13: It is. It is. There's probably around 50 companies around the world that have the same growth rate and all those things that we have.

SPEAKER_37: There's probably, like, five companies in the world that have the same retention as we have.

SPEAKER_133: Who are the other companies that have that crazy retention?

SPEAKER_37: Well, I mean, we're very much compared to them. And actually, in India and in Middle East and in Africa, Facebook, WhatsApp, Truecaller, top retention apps in all those markets.

SPEAKER_09: Now, you added a messenger to the app, correct? Mm-hm. So, you can use it for messaging.

SPEAKER_37: Well, we didn't add it into the app. It's a third app.

SPEAKER_17: Oh, it's a third app. And what's that called? True Messenger. True Messenger. Of course. Why wouldn't you put it in the app? Why did you split them?

SPEAKER_19: Well, you have to realize that, you know, a lot of our consumers who sign up to the service, they're first-time users.

SPEAKER_13: And really trying to explain what a Swiss army knife is, it's going to be harder, right? Got it. So, you know, we thought about it, but we obviously decided that for our users, it would make much more sense to have it as a separate app.

SPEAKER_18: Okay. Now, okay, there's a premium subscription to Truecaller. Mm-hm. What do you get for the premium and how much does it cost? I noticed that when I downloaded the app, there's a premium. Why should I pay for that? What do I get?

SPEAKER_37: We talked about the contact request, right? Uh-huh. That's what you get for premium.

SPEAKER_18: Ah. So, requesting somebody's contact information is only available to premium users. Right. And I'm assuming that's, what, a dollar a month? Ten dollars a year?

SPEAKER_37: It's different in different markets, but something similar.

SPEAKER_18: Okay, United States. What's it?

SPEAKER_37: I think in the U.S. it's two dollars per month.

SPEAKER_18: Two dollars per month. Yeah. So, 24 dollars per year. And is that something that 1% of people use, 10% of people use? How is that growing?

SPEAKER_19: I mean, I can't go into the specifics, but... Sure you can.

SPEAKER_125: Well, no, I actually can't, but... Oh, okay. You can give me a ballpark, I mean, is it, you know, it's a small number of people.

SPEAKER_23: Ballpark is... Millions of people use that feature? Well, something around there.

SPEAKER_17: Okay, yeah. So, that's a new feature, or was that always baked in?

SPEAKER_13: It's been there since 2012, but we're actually not, I mean, look, we're not focusing on monetization.

SPEAKER_89: We're focusing on our growth. Got it.

SPEAKER_09: So, you're gonna make that free then? I mean, how do you make that decision as an entrepreneur? If you're really into growth, that seems to me to be... I mean, the blocking spam is great, but being able to get numbers and request them, that seems like even better. Especially if you're a salesperson, why don't you just make it free and just have massive more value?

SPEAKER_13: Well, so there's several different reasons. I think, you know, one of them to go into the specifics... Yeah, please. We have partners who offer TrueColor Premium to their customers. Ah. And that adds value to the partnership that makes that partnership...

SPEAKER_37: Oh, because you'll give them a cut. Right. Ah.

SPEAKER_09: So, if you preload it on a phone, you can give them half of whatever you get or something.

SPEAKER_149: Let's say it's that. Yes.

SPEAKER_09: Do those preloading deals work? Are they worth pursuing? Or when you hit virality like this, don't you just automatically grow?

SPEAKER_13: Well, I mean, we do have a lot of preload deals, but actually it's like 15 different companies or phone manufacturers that preload TrueColor today. But, you know, they're not as important to our growth. In fact, they're just around 7% of our growth. Right.

SPEAKER_153: So, you probably should make that feature free. Sorry.

SPEAKER_09: So, tell me about the difference between the Android operating system, which is completely open, and you can do all this very easily. But on iOS, caller ID works or it's a little bit kludgy?

SPEAKER_13: So, we've been committed to innovate within the caller ID space for a very long time. And that's including our iOS users. So, a while back, we released different features to accommodate that and to create a caller ID kind of experience. But, you know, Apple has been changing their APIs back and forth. So, you can't intercept the call? We can't intercept the call. Yet. Yet. You've tried. We're... That's why... Yes. Absolutely. We tried.

SPEAKER_73: And we've been committed to giving... Why wouldn't they let you? They're just control freaks about it?

SPEAKER_37: I think so. Yeah. But they're starting to loosen up, right? With the keyboard and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_18: Yeah. The keyboard and then they allow other browsers. Right. So, maybe caller ID they'll let...

SPEAKER_13: I think it's going to be a more... It's going to be a more important question to them as they go into Asia. Because Azure, you know, revenue is coming from Asia and there's a lot of different phone manufacturers in Asia who innovate really hard on the phone experience. Which is why we've also been growing a lot in that region. So, you know, they're going to probably look at, you know, ways of accommodating the users. Ah.

SPEAKER_139: So, Apple being closed in the US or in Europe is one thing.

SPEAKER_18: But in Asia and India, Android has such a lead and people want to customize their experience so much that iOS might loosen up there first. Or that might be the reason why Apple is forced to make iOS a little more open.

SPEAKER_20: Is your thesis?

SPEAKER_13: We believe Apple is as committed to us in kind of improving or managing the complexity of the communication for the user. And we just have found different ways of doing that. But I think we're getting to the same point very soon.

SPEAKER_09: How do you do it now? When you get a call in and you don't know it, you send it to voicemail and then you hit information or something?

SPEAKER_161: Or the app reads your blog? Now on your iPhone, you can just copy the phone number.

SPEAKER_13: And then if you add our widget to your screen, so there's widgets in iPhone, right? So you can add our widget, the true call widget. And as soon as you draw down the drawer, we'll do the lookup for you and give you the information straight in the drawer.

SPEAKER_18: Ah. So you don't get it in real time, you get it after the fact. Right. Which is a bummer, but still good.

SPEAKER_13: Still very good. And again, you can search for almost 2 billion people worldwide. So it's still useful, very useful. I would say the Telia partnership that we announced just before this is one of the steps that we're taking to show how committed we are in improving that user experience.

SPEAKER_18: And Telia, for people who don't know, is the primary carrier here in Sweden? Yeah.

SPEAKER_13: But it's also one of the largest carriers and stakeholders in the world.

SPEAKER_18: Yeah. So the announcement was a little bit short on details. I'm going to take a guess that they're going to send you in real time the number to the app somehow, or on the back end through the cloud, send you the number coming in. And then you'll identify it in real time. You'll need to have that. You'll need to have the app, obviously. Yeah. But Telia has the number two going through their switch. So if you can't intercept it coming into the phone, Telia could send it to the user. Is that what you're going to do? Or is that what the logical...

SPEAKER_131: I can't go into the details, but yes, that's a very good solution.

SPEAKER_170: That would be a potential solution. That's a very good solution. I mean, other than that, what are you guys going to do, phone cases together?

SPEAKER_171: Maybe. Would you want one? No. No, I'm into the naked. So probably we're not going to do it.

SPEAKER_20: You know, I'm naked. I like naked. Which means I've broken the glass three times.

SPEAKER_37: The reason we built TrueCaller, TrueDialer, and TrueMessenger is because our users wanted them.

SPEAKER_13: So we build what our users want. And we've known... I mean, we know what our users want. They definitely do not want TrueCaller cases. No. So...

SPEAKER_18: Was there a point in time where you guys got frustrated, because it took a while for this thing to hit this level of scale and success? You know, five years. Was there a point during that that you thought, hey, this isn't going to be a big business. Maybe we should try something else?

SPEAKER_13: I think the scale has been there since 2012. Okay. The problem is, you know, if you would go back to 2012, you'd still have people who would sit and say that iPhone is going to be the dominant OS, Android is nothing, and that we have the totally wrong focus, and we should be focusing on the Western market. So that was definitely a frustration point, that we couldn't get investors to listen to us about where the world was going, where we thought the world was going. Of course, it was just a prediction, and everyone is wrong in their predictions. But for this once, we had...

SPEAKER_44: Android has taken over, but it's harder to monetize is what people typically say. Is that changing?

SPEAKER_08: Is it becoming easier to monetize with carrier billing?

SPEAKER_16: I think, you know, when you think about monetizing, there's different routes.

SPEAKER_13: You can monetize businesses, you can monetize users, you can monetize through carrier relations or something else. We're looking into that, and obviously we have a grand plan, but we're not there yet.

SPEAKER_18: Has Apple's growth in China surprised you? I mean, people thought it would never work. They seem to be doing pretty well.

SPEAKER_89: I don't think... No, we're not at all surprised by that.

SPEAKER_13: I mean, the iPhone is in many ways superior, in many ways inferior. It kind of depends on what your taste is. Right. I think Xiaomi has done a great job in China. You might call them a copycat or whatever you want, but they've done a great job. And, you know, they're growing all over the world. They're, you know, going to be releasing in other corners of the world as well, so...

SPEAKER_40: Do you think there is a chance of another operating system emerging for mobile?

David Friedberg: Cyanogen comes up as the fork of Android, and that should, you know, sort of take away Google's bundling and that kind of stuff. Have you guys started looking at Cyanogen and these other companies?

SPEAKER_13: We actually have a partnership, a pretty big partnership with Cyanogen. We're baked into the OS. You're baked into the OS. Yes.

SPEAKER_183: How do you pronounce it? Cyanogen? Cyanogen, I think. Cyanogen, yeah.

SPEAKER_185: Cyanogen, yeah. Is that going to be a major factor, do you think? Do you think it's going to see major adoption from carriers?

SPEAKER_19: Well, I mean, I wouldn't be able to speak about carriers. They're very peculiar. Okay.

SPEAKER_187: Manufacturers, carriers, whatever.

SPEAKER_13: But there's a lot of manufacturers that are interested in Cyanogen definitely because, you know, they want to be able to customize their experience and some of them may feel like, you know, they're limited in their customization and their differentiation when they're taking the straight out of the box Google approach.

SPEAKER_51: Yeah, I mean Google is essentially making it a Google experience by default. You can't really swap things in and out anymore.

SPEAKER_09: Right. Is that a mistake on Google's part, you think? Are they squeezing a little too tight?

SPEAKER_13: I think Google is doing a lot of really interesting things. I don't think they intend to kind of squeeze out anyone or anything. But, you know, as more and more people are getting into the experience, into Android, obviously they want a part of that and I wouldn't be able to tell.

SPEAKER_18: Yeah, yeah. All right. Nami, this has been amazing. Everybody who's listening to the podcast, go download Truecaller. It's really a slick, slick, well-constructed app, like a lot of the stuff coming out of Stockholm, just really well executed.

SPEAKER_20: I have to say the execution is really high here. And you're going to move the company to the United States now that you're super successful, you're going to stay here.

SPEAKER_161: Well, we have an office in San Francisco. You're welcome to office.

SPEAKER_54: Where will the headquarters be, here or there?

SPEAKER_89: The headquarters is in Stockholm.

SPEAKER_54: Are you considering changing the headquarters and how does that decision get made?

SPEAKER_13: I don't think we have any intention of switching out where our headquarters is. We're looking at growing... Look, Truecaller is a global company. We have, you know, almost 100 employees, almost 40 different nationalities. So, we have offices in Dubai, two offices in India and one in San Francisco. And we intend to keep growing. I think where the headquarters is, is less important. What's most important is that we attract the best minds in the world. All right.

SPEAKER_197: Let's hear it for Nami. And we'll be right back with more.

SPEAKER_201: And Natalia, awesome that you can join us again this year to lead this. And you, kind of a little news on your own. Now that the embassy era is over... I'm free. You're free to do whatever you want to do now. And you're doing what you do very well, which is interviews and media. And you're starting a podcast, I understand?

SPEAKER_203: I'm starting a podcast and I have become a little Swedish and I don't like to promote myself too much.

SPEAKER_205: We both have it. We both got here about the same time and we both kind of have...

SPEAKER_206: Speaking of, I got so fired up actually living in Sweden. My podcast is called Stand Out as a direct, like, call to action against Jante, which I've grown to hate. And I hate it because there's so much fantastic innovation and creativity in Sweden. I noticed that. My country noticed that. We had a record number of visitors. You and I moved here around the same time. And I think we've both fallen in love with this place. We both did. I'm so happy that I will be with a Swedish company, Acast. It's the biggest podcast company in the world right now. We like to say they're kind of the Spotify of podcasting. They're doing some fantastically innovative things. And we'll be launching in the U.S. really soon. My team is here. And it's, you know, for me it was really important to do something connected with Sweden. Because I think the values here are fantastic when it comes to all the things we talk about. Sustainability, innovation, gender equality. In fact, this panel was gender equal until Tyler Style added a panelist that I just met two minutes ago. So we're going to be doing a little bit of free flowing. I'm not even sure what company he's from. KNC. That's all I know. It's kind of like blockchain.

SPEAKER_211: Bitcoin. You'll see.

SPEAKER_206: You're going to be very impressed. As you know, I'm a fintech specialist now. Yeah, yeah. Sam's amazing. I'm going to actually allow everyone to introduce themselves. But I am going to say, you know, to follow up, I think that this panel is one of the strongest. And I think it's because, you know, Sweden really does symbolize the old and the new. And a great kind of marriage in between and the old and the new, stimulating each other and innovating. And this is what this panel is about. We have the traditional banks and we have some of the biggest fintech companies coming out of Europe. And I think this is the area where we're seeing the most, some of the most disruption. You know, when the, I excuse this term, but I'm not diplomatic anymore. When one of the biggest fat cats of all fat cats, Jamie Dimon, writes his shareholders that Silicon Valley is coming. We know that something is happening and that's what he did this year. And then followed that up with a visit to Spotify about two months ago. And so I think we're in the right place to be talking about these issues. And I want to throw it out there and just start right away. Can banks compete? Annika?

SPEAKER_219: Sorry, I love you. Good question to ask.

SPEAKER_225: Is this one on? I mean, representing an old bank, 160 years old. I definitely think so. And I think the thing is really what you were after. I guess that the banks, what we have is, of course, the customer relationships. But we don't have, I think, have been agile enough of finding kind of the fintech and using maybe all the big data we have. But I'm quite sure. And I don't see it as either or. Either you are old fashioned bank or you are kind of modern fintech. It's a little bit of both. And I think rather seeing the cooperation. So I look at this really forward looking. This is fun. And I think it's good. And hopefully all of this will benefit the clients where we're going. And that's kind of the main purpose of everything. We all want more satisfied clients. And that's how we kind of evolve.

SPEAKER_228: I don't think that the question is really whether the banks can survive or if you'll still be around. You'll be around for a couple of years more. You can be happy about that. But I think the fundamental issue here is really that there is a massive global disruption going on in the fintech space. Last year alone, I think there was roughly $13.7 billion invested in fintech in companies like iSettle or Klarna or Funding Circle, etc. And all these companies, they are small, fast, nimble. They are high tech. And I think the biggest challenge for you guys is really that you are what I like to call in maintenance mode. In the sense that if I go out looking at SCB and the kind of talent that you're looking for from an engineering perspective. You are looking for an awful lot of cobalt engineers. A programming language, you know, stemming from 1959. And that's not disruptive in itself. And that's the challenge for banks, I'd say. To disrupt yourself and find new angles. But you'll definitely be around.

SPEAKER_231: Can I just add to that? Oh, yes. Free flow.

SPEAKER_225: I think really it's both. Because I think why we look for kind of the old-fashioned programmers is also because one thing that we maybe did not understand some years ago is that the systems have to stay safe and open 24-7. And quite a few banks have had a lot of problems because now in Sweden, four out of five acquisitions, they are made by card, for example. And if you're standing there fueling up your car or in a shop, it has to work. So at the same time, kind of the old-fashioned systems that were built in the 50s have to work 24-7. And at the same time, you have to kind of disrupt yourself and asking, how do we work with the kind of new ways? And that is the challenge for a bank because, unfortunately, we can't close the bank for two years and build a new bank. That's what we can't do. So I think the thing is, we have to try to do both. But I think we are more aware of the issues today than we were some years ago. But we need both. So some of you who are old COBOL programmers, please apply.

SPEAKER_238: That's good.

SPEAKER_237: It's a rare breed.

SPEAKER_241: Well, I think that I partly agree. I mean, we have the same challenge though, right? We need to be live 24-7 as well. So we have a huge... I think it's true for us as well. We are also rebuilding our systems from the bottoms up as we're at the same, you know, kind of rebuilding the plane while it's flying. But I want to add to what Jacob said. I actually believe that what the internet drives more than anything else is globalization within specific, right? And we've already seen that in some industries more than others. But what that means is that the current banks have grown in a way where they used to do this. And then kind of the... They had a huge geographical mark, right? So SCB very strong in the Nordics. And then you kind of start selling more products to your existing customers. And now you probably, I can't, you know, count the number of products that you're selling. 500,000. I don't know how many of that is. Now the problem happens, this is that everyone else, the new entries into this market, we are very specialized. Clones and payments, I settle in, you know, helping merchants accept payments and so forth. So everyone is extremely specialized and they grow very strong businesses. And we also have historical examples that I actually lack from that slide we have there, which is Avanza and Nordnet. And all of them very specialized. And I think the challenge for the banks is more that what we're going to see in financial services, as we've seen in other industries with internet, is that these companies are going to be global and specialized, as opposed to being very broadly trying to serve a number of different needs in the geographical market. And that's where the challenge is coming from. And in fintech, it's going a little bit slower because of the local regulations, because of EU, you know, every country has its own laws regarding fintech and so forth. So this trend is not moving at the same pace as you can see in other industries, but it is happening. And I think that, at least from our point of perspective, it's more important to be a global payments company than it is to be, you know, very broad in Sweden with a number of different financial services.

SPEAKER_206: I mean, I think we're looking at a very interesting parallel paradigms in many ways. One, we have the young generation, and as you said, a rapid lightning fire change when it comes to consumer preferences, consumer needs, and the issue of trust. For the young generation, we will see in a generation, people probably not using any form of physical money or credit cards. 71% of millennials in America, that's people born after 1980, would rather go to the dentist than go to the bank. At the same time, we have the issue of trust. And I can bring that up, Sebastian, since you said I can be tough on you today. How do you build trust? You have had some problems with the morality of collecting debts, with some things going on with the press. Nobody likes debt collectors. How are you working on that?

SPEAKER_241: Well, you know, I think it's true. I mean, in the end, the banks used to have their own debt collection services as well. They were smart and sold them off a couple of years ago. But I think that basically, from our point of perspective, it's providing great products at great service levels and really be available to customers. And then, you know, independently of if any company has had, you know, challenges or product disruptions or things that hasn't been good, we're, you know, we're continuously improving them and improving our services. And I think trust is something you build over time.

SPEAKER_240: So, it's a very important factor, but it's something that, you know, I'm not too worried about our ability to do.

SPEAKER_228: I think there's also one benefit about sort of the fintech sector, and that's the fact that we are so heavily regulated. I mean, we have the Swedish Finansinspektion, Finansinspektionen are constantly on our, all of our backs, I guess, for good and bad. Sometimes we like them and sometimes we don't. But one thing that they do provide is some sort of security net for the end consumer or for companies. So, I think that kind of helps us in the new, you know, from the newer companies, if you like, to gain trust from the public. So, it's good and bad.

SPEAKER_253: It's not on, I can use this.

SPEAKER_255: It's on, it's on. Well, as you said, we're being, we're challenged by different sectors and no one is challenging our own business. But that's true now. It's not going to be true going forward because the entry barriers are falling so dramatically. And we have to figure out, number one, how to be innovative and also how to capitalize on our client base, on our trust. How do we do this? We have a good, well-developed, from a national perspective, digital channels. We were first with Swish. That's international relation. It's a success story. How can we, how can we compete with our digital channel and our branch offices, the physical meeting? I don't believe that there will be self-regulation advice only on digital platforms. I think there will be a hybrid economy where banks figure out how to partner up with those fintech companies that are, from a holistic perspective, actually making, if they're right, regulated, making the financial markets more stable. We have a problem, for example, with maturity mismatch. We lend short. We finance ourselves short and then we lend long. Peer-to-peer platforms have, this is just an example, the ability to perfectly match maturities. And also blockchains. So all of this is good news. And I think the regulatory framework in all the non-banking sectors, traditional banks are retreating, needs to be harmonized. And then also, if we approach the FSA with the urge to reach this form of partnership, I think the traditional banks are the most capable and best geared to formulate a regulation that is harmonized.

SPEAKER_260: So just on regulation, I think at the moment it is the centralized regulation environment that controls a lot of the businesses, a lot of the old business models. One thing that I believe will happen is that regulation will go back into the public hands. Right now, with blockchain technology, effectively your business model or your revenue is live streamed to everyone around the world. And that means you can be regulated from anywhere in the world. You can actually have the public regulate whether you have the funds you said you had. So if information that sits inside the FSA today is made public, then really the public will have more trust than they currently do. You won't have some of the big, huge international scandals that we've had in the last recent years. It will be publicly available and there will be lots of small, nice startups showing you how much money is actually in your account. And you didn't think there was this much now. Actually, they've already used it. They've sent it somewhere else, et cetera, et cetera.

SPEAKER_262: But this is really good, if I may.

SPEAKER_255: This is a really good example how it reduces cost, risk for fraud and making transactions more effective. But none of these has been tested in times of crisis. So we should also have some kind of, we should be cautious also because the traditional middle hands, the risks are being transformed or transferred from the traditional middle hands, the bank, into the individual and on the peer-to-peer platform.

SPEAKER_263: And I think we should just be cautious about it.

SPEAKER_225: I think you need to decide on where you add customer value. Because I think sometimes banks, we have to decide where we offer the rails and where we are the train and the rails. If you take payments, for example, I think none of us really care which banks that fix the payment. We just want the payment from going from A to B. It has nothing really to do that I want preferred bank to do this. I want it cheap and quick and I want to know it. And that was, I think, how Sweden was so successful with Swish because we did understand that. We did not create our own payment system. So I think there are many examples of that where you can work together and where you can see things. I think most of the testing point is what do we mean by trust? I think the challenge of saying that you can be global in one product is, of course, what really adds value to the client? How can you make sure to the client that the region is more important or maybe many products in one region than just being global in one? Because, of course, the client has to sample all this and it can probably be fixed also. But I can take the Baltics as a recent example. When the mortgage market in the Baltics collapsed in 2008 and 2009, we sat in SEB and we remembered the crisis we had here in the 90s. And we said, make sure now that everyone can stay in their home. This time, we will not force people to sell their house because that did not give us any revenue last time. But we forced them to sell the motorbike, the summer house, everything else. But when they stay with their family, we're going to trust them. So we capitalized the amortization, the interest. And now, after six years, they are paying. But we had to wait six years. I'm not sure all single product or Northern Rock and all the others would have done that. If you just have one single product, that's what you do. You can have other problems. But we did have other revenue streams. So we could kind of say that let's take a long-term view on these clients and long-term they will pay. So I think those are things that you need to talk about. What you mean with long-term relationships and how does it really work? Because if you are single product oriented and you finance yourself only in one way, maybe you couldn't afford to take that bet, for example. We've only seen the fintech now, I think, in an upcoming economy. Zero cost for liquidity, enormous amount of liquidity. So we don't really know what it's going to look like.

SPEAKER_267: I think when things start to look more challenging.

SPEAKER_228: Isn't it a bit surprising? I mean, you would expect most banks have, you know, fantastic balance sheets and the perfect opportunity of, you know, creating something new in effect. And you said a couple of minutes ago that you need to maintain what you have, which we all fundamentally respect, obviously. But how come none of the banks, the traditional incumbent banks, actually start a new branch, you know, Bank 2.0 or Bank 3 or 4 or whatever it is. Just start off from scratch with new companies like Klarna, iSettle and Funding Circle and put them together. I mean, you have the capital and you build a bank for the future and eventually you merge your old sort of systems into something new. It's something that you haven't seen anywhere in the world. And why couldn't you take the lead?

SPEAKER_225: No, but I think you're right that if you take the Klarna example, I think actually banks have been slow in some areas. It's obviously so that we did not think from the client perspective enough. So I think that that is, that's more. But I think the challenge is, if I take SAB for example, who's been famous for the oldest internet bank in the world, because we were first out creating an internet bank, was the oldest one. When clients on the internet bank, it was called CSR Banken, when they came into that bank and they came into the branch, they said, I have problem logging into my internet bank. The branch office said, I don't know, you're not a client of SAB. That's a separate bank. It's owned by SAB, but it's not us. That was painful for the brand. So I think also historically we did try a few of these things, but it didn't really work out because we didn't really know to holistically look at the client and measure the client. So it's not an excuse, but there are some things historically that we didn't do well. So I think partly history has been stopping us from kind of disrupting ourselves. And at the same time, I think now that since we have all the relevant data, why haven't we asked our clients again, why do you need Tink to check your economy when we can give it to you? Because we know exactly how much you pay and what you do. But we didn't think about it because we think it's kind of integrity, difficult to tell your clients, now you are overspending, ding, ding. And you say, why do you tell me? I know that. You know, why did we think that way? So we have, I think we are old fashioned in a way and we need to change and say, now those who want us to tell them that now your average, you know, is too much, tell us and we'll help you. But we haven't been there. We all, I think that's how it is.

SPEAKER_241: I think, I mean, to me, also, if you look at Swish and, you know, I love the product, it's a great product. But in a way, I'm sorry. Do you love the product? No, I think it's a good product. I mean, it's a bank, Euro 2.0. And the point is that, like, it's making it easier to transfer money within SMS. But the point is that, like, what's confusing to me from a bank strategy, to be honest, is that in some degree you're diluting your own brand, the way I would see it. Because if I would be SCB, I really want to build products that people want to use SCB. And the problem is when people start using Swish for this, they start using Tink for that, they start using Klana for that. At some point of time, I never log into SCB anymore. And at that point of time, switching to something else is fairly straightforward. So I think that, like, that's... And I am very convinced it doesn't matter, you know, Swish, it's a great product and all that. But my point is that I think this is where banking is heading. It's an app. I mean, basically, there's a number of applications, and this is something that hasn't been written a lot in press, but we had huge lobbying efforts on European level on the PST2 directive that was just approved, where at least what was told us that... I'm not sure these banks, but other banks in Europe were trying to make services like Tink not be allowed, that, like, nobody else was going to be allowed to access the data and share the data. And eventually, fortunately enough, the European legislature said, that's okay. Things like Tink, like Sofort, like Trustly, these things should be allowed. And to me, if I would be a bank, I would be fairly stressed about that, because basically what it allows, it allows any FinTech company out there to build software and services on top of the existing infrastructure, which will eventually mean that there is a risk at some point of time, I never log into SMB or Swedbank anymore, because I do my payments with this company, my, you know, financial, as you said, your mint.com or your Tink view this, I do that, and it's like a number of apps. And just think about, sorry, just one more point on this, think about the Facebook app, how that has changed. I mean, Facebook app used to be one Facebook app for everything. Now you have the Facebook app for Messenger, you have the Facebook app for this and that, and I definitely think this is going to happen within the banking thing.

SPEAKER_273: You'll have a specific purpose and a specific app for that purpose.

SPEAKER_275: We're all going to get to speak, but I'm just going to veer it a little bit, because we are in Stockholm, the home of small businesses, of startups.

SPEAKER_206: The thing that banks always have as an asset is trust, despite the crisis on Wall Street, and ubiquity. Today, in today's Dagens industry, we saw that small business owners have the lowest levels of confidence and trust in the big banks ever in Sweden. So I want our two banks to address that. And on the other hand, I want our fintech companies to talk about, you know, the parallel trend, which is rapidly changing to help your consumer, to help your consumer start businesses. And I know, Jacob, you had an announcement recently, so I want to talk about that. But first, Anna and Annika, could you reflect on that?

SPEAKER_255: Well, I think to stay competitive, we need to partner up with fintech innovators. And also to identify, to go from a business model that is based on a product offering to creating customer value. And what is this customer value? We cannot, for a year or so, more capitalise on our big data client base. So I think we need to combine our digital bank with our branches to create some kind of client value and to be there where the algorithms and the peer-to-peer matching of debt and investments are scarce. So we need to add something that I would call post-digital value creation that stacks and glues these worlds together. Amazon is actually going to start building physical stores. So it's not a, it's not an, I see the ones that could create the banks, the traditional bank that could create a one point of entry, not being an app on someone else's platform, but actually to be the platform to attract the apps.

SPEAKER_282: Can you evolve fast enough? No, but I think we were so busy with the regulatory framework. We were so busy keeping up with handling that.

SPEAKER_255: And we didn't catch up with both the technology and the behavioral change, the trust issue. Risk assessment and trust. So these two together, it's how you see the sharing economy just expanding exponentially. It's a matter of change. Behaviorable also, the technology that just lowers all the entry barriers.

SPEAKER_228: Anna, do you think that will ever change? I mean, look at our industry. We will constantly be challenged with regulatory, and in your case to a much higher extent compared to our companies, with maintenance. So will you ever be able to disrupt, or will you ever be able to change the culture

SPEAKER_287: or sort of the underlying platforms fast enough?

SPEAKER_255: But I think in this new network society, this network structure of our society, we might not have to. I mean, why not partner up with brilliant minds? Or why not create open innovation? Maybe on our platforms?

SPEAKER_289: I'm just thinking. I think the new, the new form of-

SPEAKER_290: I think Credit Agricole is already doing that, right? I've seen they've launched an app program

SPEAKER_291: where people can build apps on top of their existing data and so forth. So there are a couple of initiatives.

SPEAKER_292: So I think there are still, I might be too optimistic,

SPEAKER_255: but I think traditional bands has a lot of, in this new world, unseen capital, just because we've been here so long, we have a trust and we have our branch offices. I mean, it's not only... When I went to New York to talk to this professor on sharing economy on seed funding, and he said that it was, he didn't see any future in seed financing on digital platforms, because you need to know the local community, the actor in the local community. You need to feel the environment and to touch the teams. So you cannot only disrupt segment-wise. I think you need the bank, traditional bank in the community, local actor, part of the society.

SPEAKER_231: I don't know. I think, first of all, we did actually come out quite well

SPEAKER_225: in that survey this morning. And I think it is also because we have focused for a long time on early coming into venture cap, supporting in schools, and doing all that. Starting early to show that we are participating in this. But we cannot provide always with kind of traditional risk capital. That's different. So where do banks come in? There needs to be an understanding around that, I think. So I think it's twofold. And I think it goes back to, again, how can we help taking out customer pain, understanding how we can support the customer in kind of the growth mode. And I think that is the challenging part. When you start your company, who is coming in to help and support in the beginning and what you need. Because there's no difference from yourself and your company. It's the same person. It's the same money put on the table. So I think it's a long-term way you have to share a story. Actually, this morning, I had a small flower bouquet coming into my table. That happens very rarely. So that was quite nice. And it was actually two guys from Linköping who said, thank you for believing in us when you visited in 2011. And I had to think, what was that 2011? It was actually two guys at Linköping that did these small, what do you call, högtalare, speakers, that you could have a new mobile, something. And I really liked the idea. So our venture capital fund went in and put in capital to them. And now they have done their exit. So they were very pleased. But as a bank, that has been a strength for us, also having some venture cap, being able to put in seed money in some smaller companies and showing also that we can go in and take a little bit of risk, even though that is a little bit kind of off-site from traditional banking.

SPEAKER_206: But tell us then, Annika, because a lot of the question lies upon how do you, as a huge bank, as an institution laden with tradition and legacy, how do you spur intrapreneurship, innovation from the inside? And then, Jacob, I want to kind of parallel you

SPEAKER_295: because I think iZettle Advance is kind of a great example of being in touch with the people and doing that. So perhaps, Annika, you and then Jacob.

SPEAKER_225: That is, of course, for a big bank with huge projects, always challenging. You know, we kill so many small projects and it's always difficult to prioritize. I think, first of all, we change the whole IT to working in a much more agile way. We have the whole bank into compartments. We really understand who is into payments, who into markets, who are we doing for each and every one. Not saying that large corporates is different or something else. We try to prioritize. And I think also management. I spend, I would say, one full day a week on IT, while five years ago, probably one hour. So it's a huge difference on how much time we put into this. And then we decided to create an innovation lab that we have at Epicenter here in Stockholm, with a virtual lab with approximately 100 people that can work there, where actually the leaders in SEB allow people on working time to take on tasks. And this is, you could say, challenging part because they have a free ride of making some projects coming through the system quicker than the way they have been prioritized. But we have to live with that to show that some of these things has to be done. And we have to do it in a different way. So I think we are pushing that and making sure that we do things. But it is challenging.

SPEAKER_299: It is challenging.

SPEAKER_201: A lot of admiration for everybody. And thank you all for coming. And what a wonderful mix of perspectives on such a, what is obviously going to be the next big battlefront with innovation and technology. So best of luck to all of you. And I think Stockholm wins regardless because we have such awesome players in this space.

SPEAKER_300: Stand out, Stockholm, stand out. Thank you.