SPEAKER_00: all right so a couple weeks ago we had the guy behind deep research from google on the show great interview great time you were a big fan of the product i'm a big fan of the product then over the weekend open ai everyone's favorite closed ai shop uh dropped their own product and jason did

SPEAKER_01: you know they also called it deep research it's fascinating that they uh i'm shocked that uh in any way uh we would have open ai do something like steal somebody else's i mean it's kind of

SPEAKER_08: laughable right they just called it the same exact thing okay sure this week in startups is brought

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SPEAKER_10: your first five dollar lineup and linkedin ads to redeem a 100 linkedin ad credit and launch your first campaign go to linkedin.com slash this week in startups hey everybody welcome back to this week

SPEAKER_13: in startups i'm jason kalkanis he's alex wilhelm and we do this three days a week monday wednesday

SPEAKER_14: friday typically around 12 texas time but sometimes i have a speaking gig at stanford like i did today where i was speaking at jeffrey pfeiffer's power class uh so we had to push it back a little bit

SPEAKER_13: because i do this class every semester because they wrote a case study on me in the class which is a very weird experience but there is a case study literally on how i accumulated power early in my career that was written maybe 10 years ago so that is a very surreal thing to have the students and man

SPEAKER_17: one of the students came at me uh during the class it was it was spicy okay i have i have a similar

SPEAKER_00: story not about me but i was taking um some classes at booth business school as an undergraduate and we were doing you know looking at case studies going through debating them as a class and no one knew who this guy was the back of the classroom just sitting there and then it turns out he was the principal in the case study we had been going through and we had all been ragging on the decisions he made and then he's like well that was interesting and we were all like ah okay but that's the power of you know tier one schools is that you get the actual principles to come in and do their thing

SPEAKER_22: and that's why i love it oh there it is here it is a study in creating resources yeah man good job i will

SPEAKER_13: read that but uh yeah no it's uh been a crazy uh two weeks i guess today is monday two weeks after the inauguration so here we are on february 3rd we're two weeks into it and uh my lord the news cycle is

SPEAKER_00: fast and furious huh yeah we were joking about this a little bit before the show but it feels like one of those times in which enough things are happening in so many different places and in

SPEAKER_25: different directions that you need to be online essentially chronically to stay even fractionally up to date like there's just chaos is maybe the right word but kinetic might be the right word as

SPEAKER_17: well sure there's a lot going on i think people forgot you know my nickname for trump and his first term was captain chaos because he would say things and he would say things in such a colorful way and then people would take him seriously or not take him seriously and all of a sudden you would have protests at airports you would have the stock market doing backflips as somebody uh i heard say recently he's the he's the uh stick in the drink that stirs it so you know if something's happening in the stock market like he's probably stirring the drink and today the stock market absolutely tanked because there was all this talk over the weekend about tariffs but as you pointed out on x this is like the third or fourth time he's brought up tariffs and done the saber rattling and it's the same thing over and over we're doing tariffs the person on the other side of the table acquiesces and sends troops to the borders or promises to fix something he doesn't like and then the tariffs are off so i actually recommend maybe once a day if you're a founder uh consuming news put it into a nice tight 30 minute 60 minute band get all your news you know you'll get some of it here on the pod when you're on the treadmill or going for a hike but man if you try to keep up with this it's going to rattle your brain over the next 206 weeks that are left of this don't don't say that out loud i don't think i'm going to survive

SPEAKER_00: but jason you pointed out over on uh on social media that there's actually quite a lot more than just this going on there's also been the nba trade chaos that has been heard around the world i'm still trying to sort out what the hell is going on there i do think you make a good point that a little self-care a little investment in ourselves it's going to be a definitely going to be a marathon so i think we should all breathe yes and try to maintain a little calm download the calm app and

David Friedberg: uh i literally did a hike i always do a hike on the ranch every day with the daughters and uh uh then i was going to do my meditation and uh two of my three daughters did the meditation with me on calm and we had like a very nice 14 minutes together diet exercise sleep meditation focus on

SPEAKER_13: those four things in chaotic times in any times and you'll build a nice solid foundation luckily you can use eight sleep one of our investments you can use fitbot another one of our investments for

SPEAKER_14: working out eight sleep for sleep calm for meditation and for diet you can use nutrisense so i have i

SPEAKER_18: i have a startup in each of these categories go ahead and take care of those four things however you choose um call him mr power outlet because he's always got a plug i got a plug yes i will

SPEAKER_17: absolutely uh have a plug for all the stuff but you know we uh we like to have founders on the show oh and then on the dallas trade just for people who are wondering since alex and i are big nba fans yes

SPEAKER_00: sir wtf okay so for folks who don't know luka donjic is one of the generational talent i think is the way to put it in terms of his disability to play play the game and was the only player on the mavericks that i could you know name because i'm not a navs guy in the league consensus 25 years old

SPEAKER_17: went to the finals last year maybe shows up out of shape overweight people say it's like 280 pounds or

SPEAKER_43: whatever so there i guess are some concerns about his uh fitness but lo and behold on saturday night or sunday night saturday night anything he got traded to the lakers for anthony davis who's 32 years

SPEAKER_17: old it would be like the equivalent of trading michael jordan or steph curry like he's that level in his prime so it makes no sense and they got a very little take for him and people in dallas it's like literally good at the franchise but i like the conspiracy theory that the family that bought the

David Friedberg: dallas mavericks from cuban care deeply about uh they made their money in gambling and wagering and

SPEAKER_17: that's maybe gonna happen in texas maybe not they want to build a casino with the mavericks as the

SPEAKER_46: anchor but maybe they are trying to sink the franchise in order to move it to vegas uh which is an

SPEAKER_00: interesting concept well there's a wnba team the aces play in vegas already and there's uh they have the hockey team there and they move the the help me out jason the oakland a's i believe are now yeah i think so yeah so i can see like a growing nexus of of sports in in vegas but i still really even

SPEAKER_25: with that i questioned the trade just as a sports fan i i struggle and ad is a player shout out you know good but timing you don't give away player maybe yeah it's it feels it feels like a downgrade anyways we love having founders on the show and jason there's been a startup that i've been tracking

SPEAKER_00: over on x that has been consistently growing i think faster than basically any startup that i can recall in history it's called lovable and they announced back in december they had reached 4 million arr and then they announced just a couple days ago they've hit 10 million arr so i wanted to

SPEAKER_57: get the co-founder on the show so let's bring anton osayka up he is the co-founder of lovable.dev anton

SPEAKER_59: how are you doing super excited to be here i'm a fan of the pod jason and alex yes so uh tell us what does your startup do lovable is very simple instead of hiring a software engineer which is is uh costly and slow you ask an ai system in plain english what you want then you get an app or a website out of that and uh yeah we just hit as you're saying i like 20 000 paying users and i'm

SPEAKER_60: excited to be here and spread some of my excitement about about what we're doing i'm going to show

SPEAKER_31: what i built using lovable in a second but just to be clear are you actually adding something like

SPEAKER_00: a million dollars in arr a week right now yeah it's going very predictably growing one million

SPEAKER_59: air per week since we launched in late november okay and then jason because you see a lot more

SPEAKER_00: pitch decks than i do how often do you see a startup that's less than a few years old growing by a

SPEAKER_66: millionaire or a week yeah i mean that would be some viral moment it would depend on the price of

SPEAKER_14: the product right if the product was a billion dollars to install and that would be crazy because you would have to have this crazy pipeline of sas companies and seven figure deals are rare and they

SPEAKER_17: take six months to 12 months typically to close if you uh had a product that was a thousand dollars getting a thousand people to spend a thousand dollars a month uh or a thousand dollars a year

SPEAKER_69: is a little bit easier but still hard so yeah hyper growth is hyper growth it's rare to show this off

SPEAKER_00: jason i'm going to show you what i built because you know my coding skills are absolutely you know top of the top of the pinnacle here is a game that i made this morning using lovable.dev and i'm going to show off my awesome snake game if you're on the audio version i made snake with obstacles that's my major innovation in the gaming space and as you can see it works jason it's live on the browser and uh you can crash and die and uh do pretty well but anton there's a there's a flaw in this that we wanted

SPEAKER_72: to talk about yeah so so you have a leaderboard on the right side but from what i understood alex

SPEAKER_60: this is not something you have connected to the back end with a database where the leaderboard is stored globally maybe it works just on your computer but you asked me like okay can we change this

SPEAKER_74: and i said sure we can do it live on the on the stream all right founders let's be real finding great developers is tough especially when you're trying to run and scale your startup and raise money all of this leads to you having slow product velocity but here's the good news i've got a tip that's going to save you time it's going to save you money and a ton of headaches you need to check out lemon.io lemon.io has thousands of on-demand developers who can help you they've done the work to find and vet developers who are experienced who are results oriented and who charge competitive rates great developers can be hard to find and integrate into your team lemon.io handles all of that for you startups choose lemon.io because they only offer hand-picked developers with at least three years of experience and who are the best of the best just one percent of their candidates are accepted and if something goes wrong lemon.io will find you a replacement developer asap a bunch of launch founders have worked with lemon.io and they've had great experiences so here's your call to action visit lemon.io twist and find your perfect developer or even a tech team in just 48 hours or less and twist listeners get 15 off the first four weeks stop burning money hire developer smarter and visit lemon.io twist so we're gonna try to do this live jason the point is my

SPEAKER_00: leaderboard doesn't work because i don't know what i'm doing so here is uh the lovable interface again if you're on the audio version there is a canvas on the right side where the ai builds stuff for you and then on the left i have a chat with lovable's ai talking through what's going on so my leaderboard doesn't work for my snake game and i have signed up for supabase anton and now i need to know what i

SPEAKER_78: should do to make this work as a non-developer okay so just and stepping back for a second anton you basically put in a text prompt and it writes code yeah so that's what you can see on the left

SPEAKER_59: that if you zoom in alex you can see like what uh what alex has been asking the ai to do and then

SPEAKER_60: it's been iteratively changing the entire application that's shown on the right hand side

SPEAKER_25: it's slick jason like i like i actually knew how to i mean we use a lot of ai here at twist but i mean

SPEAKER_81: like this was something that i could pull together as a non-developer quickly and um it was fun so

SPEAKER_60: so we go big super base that's the uh like the standard i think oh half of white combination companies they uh they super base so here you select your project that you uh selected you created with super base okay then this you don't need to touch super base more after that if you want to like have low level granular access to the data yourself you can go into that interface but now the ai is going to handle the setup of of the backend system which um which you would like you alex you own all all the data that's stored in that backend system and then every time you ask something of

SPEAKER_25: course the ai has to think for a while okay so well i'm gonna i'm gonna stop sharing and we'll come

SPEAKER_00: back to this but i want to talk about how you managed to get to to where you are because the company launched three times anton and it seems the third time was the the magic moment so can you just talk us through a little bit about how you went from a couple of launches that didn't have a major impact to the one that came later last year that ended up growing to 10 million error yeah sure so

SPEAKER_58: so uh before i started the company around this i actually launched the fourth time or the first time

SPEAKER_60: which was just showing off an open source project that was called the gpt engineer so this is this isn't at all the same product but it was the first open source project really captured the mind space of people outside of tech i think in that large language models they can start writing code so that was back in 2022 but now we launched three times last year with with a version kind of prompt to application and and it still it had a completely different name and each time we launched the first the first and second time it was behind the wait list and the product we was like good people liked it but we we wanted to only do a full full on loan launch when we know it was really good we had solved some of the big roadblocks from the second launch which is that the ai gets stuck and so on sure and then and then we launched in 21st of november and since then it's going going straight

SPEAKER_00: up so then i want to talk about doing this inside of europe because one thing we've talked about a lot i mean here on the show frankly is that europe does seem to be a little bit behind in the realm of ai uh leading to tweets like this showing you know the us has open ai and xai and china has deep seek and then europe only has these impossible to open uh bottles you said that you're committed to proving this wrong so i'm just curious what's it like building an ai startup in europe today with

SPEAKER_25: the regulatory load and does the company's quick growth i show that it's more possible than some

SPEAKER_58: people thought yeah i i sure hope so i think it's definitely a bit of hard mode to do it from do ai

SPEAKER_60: startups from europe because you get it's much harder to break through the noise people are generally less ambitious like the ambition density is is usually lower and so you need but you but the talent like the raw talent is there so you need to find the raw talent and light the fire and increase the ambition level and i i definitely think there's going to be a lot more acceleration coming coming out of europe and um yeah on your point about the regulatory problems i think they from where we are at now mostly affect consumers in europe so like there might be a point in time where we only release something outside of europe which will be very sad right but it's not affecting our revenue in the same way

SPEAKER_90: currently so explain to me the product a little bit more the who is this product aimed at and then

SPEAKER_59: how much are you charging for it so so this product is used by tons of different groups entrepreneurs

SPEAKER_60: that want to build a company or build even a sas startup they don't have to find a great developer which is super hard they can just start building the product all the way to the first version uh with our tool and then and then if they own they can onboard engineer to the engineers to the code base with it with their tool of choice so anyone who's an entrepreneur and hustler love this tool we also see designers and product managers they who've been using figma instead going straight to building the real thing by just prompting and they're getting a beautiful user interface uh and finally agencies and freelancers that usually took days to deliver projects or weeks they can ship ship things in in less than a day and that's uh those are like all different big big user groups that uh uh and how much does it cost so it starts at 20 per month and then it goes up based on the ai consumption which is like extremely expensive for from our side i think you just tried a screenshot

SPEAKER_94: on that alex uh to 900 per month and so the concept is somebody who wants to prototype or build an app

SPEAKER_17: they want to build a fitness app a sleeping app a small game instead of hiring a developer team

David Friedberg: they can go in there build it themselves and then maybe hand it off to a developer team if they want to finalize it i guess that's the piece that i'm always wondering because in a native language model

SPEAKER_17: whether using gemini or chat gpt or even a code uh like replit you know these features have existed you can uh have it build prototypes but then when when does it move from being a toy where you can build like you know interesting little projects and be like wow it made it to hey this is production

SPEAKER_32: quality and it can go there has that sort of final piece been crossed yet and or does it still require you to have a developer and a dev team in your mind also there's like hundred thousand k

SPEAKER_60: dollar projects that are shipped with our pro with our tool completely and i i could share my screen just to showcase a few of the commercial applications that people have built so here's just an example from our christmas hackathon here and i'm showing you a screen sharing uh application that is a hackathon website built with lovable of course where hundreds of people built pretty interesting things and just bringing out a few of those someone built a fully commercial uh venture fundraise crm here with with lovable sending letters online where you just describe the ad postal address and then you get it shipped by connecting to existing apis was built and uh like learning languages and the social media tone of voice guideline generators with ai so these are some examples of commercial products that have been

SPEAKER_00: built all the way with the lovable jason i couldn't have told you that some of those were actually made with an ai prompt versus a designer and i that makes me kind of fret for my friends who currently

SPEAKER_60: make their money designing websites i must add that in some cases you need a lot of devotion uh if you're not a technical to go through go through all the hurdles and maybe read up on how to get uh get around the problem and some types of problems that the ai runs into but with sufficient patience you you're

SPEAKER_32: going to get through it well i mean if you think about startups writ large you know 20 years ago

SPEAKER_17: getting a team of developers making wireframes and building some basic functionality was you know the first three to six months of the journey and then connecting with some consumers and of course here now with ai you can compress that to three or four hours and then maybe even let some people play with it and get some feedback but you still have to do all the other pieces of the puzzle marketing the product customer support selling it and i guess supporting it so this is um the beginning of the end of you know what i'll call commodity software and we knew that was coming you know if you want to create an app or a timer you can go find a timer online but here you could just make a timer and that's kind of interesting because in the early days of the internet if you think about it alex you could

SPEAKER_43: go make a landing page on myspace or geo city is one of these hosted ones yeah and then all of a

Chamath Palihapitiya: sudden squarespace gave you the ability to have your own domain name pop it up and have a gorgeous

SPEAKER_17: looking website that previously would have cost a couple million dollars so why wouldn't the applications get built this quickly makes total sense to me all right the big game is almost here

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SPEAKER_48: that in the future people are going to just roll their own software for everything like you showed

SPEAKER_00: the the venture fundraising crm i mean am i going to eventually just have a suite of applications that are just alex's tools that are all kind of built by myself hosted by myself and hold all my own data

SPEAKER_81: i i can't decide if that's an exciting future or one that sounds like a lot of work yeah i mean i i i

SPEAKER_59: let me get get to that i just want to echo what you said uh jason with software and sass is just going

SPEAKER_60: to be absolutely disrupted the the amount of software or great software much better software is going to explode but the prices are going to absolutely collapse i think there is a case for people customizing kind of building almost their own software but one of the pieces even though the engineering time is kind of almost reduced to zero thanks to ai there's a cost of building good software which is to test it with a with a human us humans we were kind of the bottleneck for the for software and that's typically what the product manager does and now now i think it's more like an ai builder that is really good at understanding and testing with users so that's going to remain and we're like lovable we're very bullish on finding who are the best people building with our tools so tomorrow we're launching something where we can easier where we can launch your lovable apps and get feedback from users and then i i think what you're going to see is the single people companies are with the great where the founder has a great product taste we'll be like single person sass companies and be able to launch and market them just thanks to and the wisdom of the crowds figuring out where

SPEAKER_62: the best best high value of sass products are and that's launching tomorrow yeah that's launching

SPEAKER_17: tomorrow oh well break your little news here on the show jason yeah it's uh it's a really interesting uh concept to be able to use text prompts to build code bases and then deploy them to the wild and things like you know replet and sub base or sup super base and all these things are just abstracting it and it's apparent that uh or at least to me it's apparent that the future programming language is going to be english yeah and you're going to be able to just describe what you want and get it um now of course you will have features and refinement that humans will do in the last stages but just like people used to be able to create mock-ups and hand them to developers or you know designs and hand them to developers to be built this is um going to speed that whole process up and instead of needing a 12 person team to build a modern app company which is kind of what you need about 12 people you're going to need two yeah that's going to unlock what we talked about last week uh alex which is all those little nooks and crannies the long tail the the skiing app the

David Friedberg: cross-country skiing app the cross-country skiing app or this specific mountain in france you know for this group of people and retirees at this retirement community they're going to have their own dedicated app for them and it will just be this long tail of apps and products and services like you're saying that could be bespoke or that could be for you know just pickleball just in austin or just in northern austin etc so uh very cool stuff and uh great job uh to the team thanks jason yeah can i just ask is

SPEAKER_59: there any app that you want built now that's so cheap and easy to do it jason an app for me to be

SPEAKER_17: built um i am i don't have one off the top of my head no okay i just did a landing page for founder university and i looked at it and i was like huh that landing page would be you know last year or two years ago if i asked some average member of our team to make a landing page what they would have built so i do think you know the refinement of design is the piece i'm kind of interested in and i also did a a quick one where i said make me a fasting app and it used zero as its inspiration but it didn't have great design and so the design piece i think will be a really um interesting whether it happens in adobe or canva or inside of lovable you know or or some combination the ability to make world-class design is the other big unlock as opposed to you know let's call it you know six seven

David Friedberg: out of ten level design and that takes taste right and we'll see if the machine can have taste

SPEAKER_118: eventually and on just before we let you go two things one that worked and now my leaderboard

SPEAKER_00: functions so thank you and two there's been a lot of conversation about the potential for churn amongst fast growing ai startups and you guys are one of the fastest growing out there so just before you go

SPEAKER_85: what's churn like amongst your customer base today and is it changing getting better or getting worse

SPEAKER_60: as time goes on yeah so so um we're seeing this smiling retention curves are not that much smiling but they're flattened and there's a lot of people that come in and they're like oh there's a new ai tool i want to try it but for us which is uncommon there's a at 45 of the users uh they that's where the retention line completely flattens out so so that's that's how that's how it looks right now and the reason for people the 60 or the 55 percent leaving is currently that there are places where as a non-technical person it's very hard to uh kind of build you out your entire dream but but this is uh absolutely changing super fast so in a few weeks or so like more and more non-technical people are going to be able to build out full full size companies that are going to be awesome uh congratulations

SPEAKER_91: on the early success and uh we'll look forward to following your progress well done thanks anton

SPEAKER_118: all right jason you my friend wanted to talk about sovereign wealth funds and i am all here for it so

SPEAKER_00: for folks who need to catch up today at the oval office the president announced the creation of a sovereign wealth fund here in the us jason you had ideas how to fund this thing natural resources

SPEAKER_28: crypto yeah you seem bullish first we should uh start with what is a sovereign wealth fund and what's

SPEAKER_17: the purpose of it so if your country isn't in 36 37 38 trillion dollars in debt and you have some natural resource let's say uh norway with their oil reserves uh or australia with their mining reserves they have rare earth minerals there it's a pretty big land mass those are owned by the country so what do we have in america uh well i think our oil is mostly privately owned but we do have land that we owned we the a large percentage of land in the united states is owned or you could uh take some amount

David Friedberg: of taxpayer dollars and put that into a sovereign wealth fund so what is the point of a sovereign wealth fund typically you have a sovereign wealth fund because you have excess capital and you need to do something with it we do not have excess capital we have massive debt so this is very strange to be bringing up right now because what are we going to do go into debt create a sovereign wealth fund saudi has a massive sovereign wealth fund because they're sitting on top of oil same with the uae same with qatar qatar those places then want to deploy with their sovereign wealth fund intelligently the people's share of that in order to get a return or to achieve strategic interest so the reason you have it is because you have excess capital and the reason you deploy it is to grow it for your people

SPEAKER_14: to and or create some sustainable future hey founders i want to share with you an experience that i

SPEAKER_104: love and that's when i get ads that are relevant to me not some nonsense that is not targeted the other day i got an ad for a fund management platform and it was a new one that i hadn't heard of and i manage a fund so i was able to schedule a call with them that's amazing it's not rocket science it's just targeting and how did that happen it happened on linkedin if your business is marketing to other businesses doing b2b advertising linkedin ads is amazing because it guarantees that you reach the right audience i don't need an ad for hr tools as an example right there are other people who work in hr i work in venture so you want the hr people to get the hr ads you want the venture capitalists to get the fund management software and services ads makes total sense and linkedin's advertising tools will connect you to decision makers based on their firma graphics so you may not have heard that term before that's your job title your industry your company size and more linkedin has two things that you need to grow this year first reach linkedin has over a billion members 130 million of them are decision makers and of course 10 million are c-level executives and number two linkedin has impact b2b marketers report two to five times higher return on ad spend compared to other social platforms so you don't waste your money plus 79 of b2b marketers say linkedin is the best platform for paid media linkedin allows you to build the right relationships drive results and reach your customers so start converting your b2b audience into high quality leads today we'll even give you a hundy a hundred dollar credit on your next campaign go to linkedin.com slash this week in startups to claim your credit that's linkedin.com slash this week in

David Friedberg: startups terms and conditions do apply and alaska has this right so alaska gives a dividend i think to uh you can look it up what it is but there is a universal basic payment in alaska because of i guess

SPEAKER_14: some of the mineral rights that are there that are owned by the state um and the state of texas actually owned some land with oil in it and they put it into a trust for a university of texas so there are local state level sovereign wealth funds essentially trusts i guess it might be how they're described

David Friedberg: but this makes no sense for the united states right now because we have debt if we had excess money like

SPEAKER_14: let's say we own a bunch of prime real estate uh in major cities for the government and we don't need that office space because we've downsized the government and some number of people are working

David Friedberg: from home if we sell that well we should take that cash not invest it in venture capital funds like the one i run or private equity funds or real estate funds we should just pay down the debt so we have less interest payments that makes more sense so this seems like a bit of a boondoggle however

SPEAKER_17: here's why it's coming up tick tock ah good yes the president says we'll give you a license for tick tock we get half of tick tock shares when it goes public so it goes public it's worth he says a trillion dollars people privately say a hundred billion let's pick 200 billion as a number united states has a hundred billion dollar sovereign wealth fund now and we give a billion dollars to each of a hundred venture capitalists private equity real estate investors to invest it with the hopes that the interest on that is greater than the interest we're paying on our loans for our debt if not we

SPEAKER_43: should just take the shares of tick tock sell them on the open market take the hundred billion and pay

SPEAKER_17: down our debt so we pay less so this has terrible um ramifications and downstream effects

David Friedberg: um that we should also consider why would we have the government doing the job that we as a nation have an elite practice in private right we want smaller government in private companies doing this so it's not like there's a lack of venture capitalist private equity folks that our sovereign wealth fund needs to exist it doesn't need to exist and so it makes no sense well one agreed i don't think this

SPEAKER_00: is what we should be doing with our time and money right now but if you are the president and you do want to have more influence on the market more leverage to enact change and to kind of push things around the way you want to having your a personal piggy bank which is sovereign wealth fund you know

SPEAKER_25: writ large i can kind of see it but i really struggled to see how we're going to find the money to finance this thing my question that i'm struggling with a little bit is does this play into the whole idea of um national you know bitcoin or crypto trust could those be melded together should we pursue that it

SPEAKER_00: to me it seems a little risky for the national bank but yeah i mean we we own a certain number

SPEAKER_17: of bitcoins because of like silk road and other seizures so there's an argument if you think it's going to appreciate and it's strategic to own it that we take that strategic reserve and put it into this and then have somebody who's super intelligent manage it so you would hire somebody from the private sector or a couple of people from the private sector to make an investment committee like the one that exists for calipers california's retirement fund or one that exists uh mubadala for the uae and and abu dhabi and their sovereign wealth fund so you hire really smart capital allocators to make the right

David Friedberg: decision of when to sell an asset or when to hold an asset sure that's possible or you could come up

SPEAKER_17: with new ways to generate revenue one example would be if we want to have a clear uh framework

David Friedberg: for crypto i think two things would make it very palatable one have an investment test where in order to trade crypto you got to take a basic test if you go in robin hood and you want to trade options

SPEAKER_14: which are complicated you have to walk through some tools that explain to you how options work now they're not required to do that they choose to do that because they want to have people have a good experience with their product and not lose their money so we should have accredited an accreditation test then the second piece might be well if you want to trade crypto there needs to be some rails therefore any crypto being sold or bought has 10 basis points five basis points one basis point one one hundredth of a percentage so all these billions of dollars that are going back and forth what if

David Friedberg: if you traded you know xrp or ethereum or bitcoin that little bit went into our reserve over time you

SPEAKER_17: know it might build up as a little mini tax and then that tax would also go to fund the operation of the sec or other folks who do enforcement which if you were in crypto and you were a good actor you would want to fund enforcement against bad actors so that the industry grows and is trusted which kind of growing kind of stalled and it's not trusted and so i think that there could be ways to look at generating new revenue here what if every time somebody wants to ipo or be on the united states market they have to give 10 basis points of their ipo whatever they offer to go into the sovereign wealth fund so if alibaba or uber or you know pick another country that has a a publicly traded company you know if mercedes was going public theoretically and they wanted to be traded on the u.s stock market we'd say yeah there's a 10 bit you know onboarding fee that goes into our sovereign wealth fund to help our us grow our economy

David Friedberg: but um it feels also like then this is going to be highly politicized which i think you're pointing out you know if mbs wants to build cities or build neom a new city or buy you know a live golf and do a golf thing he can do those things because he is the prince uh he's the king i guess he's the prince right so in the united states we don't have princes uh we have every four to eight years it turns over so now we would get into okay obama did x y and z trump did a b and c tomala and biden did x y and z and now we're going back and forth and then the leadership of this has to get ripped out plugged back in

SPEAKER_141: maybe and then whose priority is is it and why it just feels like we want less government let's go

SPEAKER_00: with less government well you could have you know five or ten year terms or lifetime terms and you can have it be set out but i think we've seen recently that not all norms about uh length of employment in the government persist so i struggle with that but i was laughing actually because uh one of our live viewers dropped a funny comment they said i don't like the sovereign wealth fund but i am okay with taking 0.1 of tech shares at ipo to what end in that case just stealing them taxes are good if they

SPEAKER_17: can pay down the debt and make the u.s solvent and we have a solvency issue so i think being creative with taxes is a good idea yeah and i would put anything on the table in that regard if it is earmarked to pay down the debt like immediately like do not pass go do not put it in a slush fund

SPEAKER_145: just pay down debt pay down debt balance the budget that's that's all that matters right now

SPEAKER_31: we're on the brink of insolvency looking through the list of sovereign wealth funds because i was

SPEAKER_00: just going through the you know the top 10 prepping for the show today it's basically all oil money and so i wonder if there is a way we could create something involving if you're leasing public lands if you're using public resources take a slightly larger cut put that money into us our wealth fund i i can make it work but i do agree fundamentally that it's a bit of a boondoggle to use your term

SPEAKER_25: progress on reducing not only our aggregate debt but our yearly deficits the deficit has to get yeah

David Friedberg: first thing is to stop the bleeding so getting the deficit under control is a good idea right if your

SPEAKER_17: revenue exceeds your spend you know or you're at break even you you've accomplished something here's another idea immigration hot button issue hey if you're an immigrant here and you want a 10-year golden

David Friedberg: visa you have to pay a million dollars uh in taxes over the next 10 years or whenever you hit a million dollars in taxes that's when you get your citizenship boom like we could come up with creative things now that wouldn't be the only type of immigration we'd have obviously yeah that could be the golden visa which other countries have you make an investment it goes into the sovereign wealth fund and then you get a visa and if you're a good citizen for some period of time you can get to

SPEAKER_14: uh become an actual citizen of the country so there are all kinds of ways if if our biggest resource is people want to be here well why wouldn't we try to monetize that to pay down our debt anything to

David Friedberg: pay down the debt and balance the budget is my best opinion would you be in favor just about balling

SPEAKER_25: of adding a couple hundred basis points to the corporate tax rate to help sure that issue i think

SPEAKER_17: everything should be on the table in terms of taxes and i would always start with the most affluent so you don't want to mute economic activity but you do want to pay down this debt so if corporations had to pay you know increasingly high minimums on their cash hoards uh you know if they had to pay uh based a minimum tax on certain amounts of revenue um if individuals who had you know i'm not in favor of wealth taxes because people can leave so you have to be judicious in this but if people have over some very large number of equities maybe they get charged a very small amount again when i say like 10 basis points if you told me i had to pay 10 basis points every year on my you know uh economic holdings over x millions of dollars i'd be like don't like it but not going to kill me and if it balances the budget short as long as the waste fraud abuse is also getting taken care of at the same time no rich person no affluent person no affluent company is going to feel bad about paying a little

David Friedberg: more in taxes if they know it's not being wasted and they know that it actually goes towards balancing the budget which you know if you're running a startup you know this like you because you run out of money we have this magical gift that could only exist for a short period of time where we get to print imaginary money and people still want to buy it and that may not last forever so well not unless

SPEAKER_00: stable coins become the next big thing and they put all their money into t-bills i mean that helps a little bit but it's around the edges i'm curious to see when we get to defense spending and uh and waste fraud and abuse there because the pentagon as people famously point out hasn't passed an audit in some time and i'm curious what okay here's a fun game jason what fraction of dod spending do you think is wasted i'm gonna go with double digits uh 25 probably i mean that's i mean if you don't have

SPEAKER_17: to pass an audit if you don't have to be efficient and everybody just says hey you know it's defense it's defense we can't touch it you know then you're never going to have efficiency or competition and so you know the competition's here venture capitalists are investing in um military technology now and plus plus is going away so we have to attack everything and so that's um i think one of the things we're seeing now with doge and usaid and all these controversial things that are occurring and causing a bit of chaos and making people wring their hands my best advice is give it a hundred days better it's happening even if you don't like it better it's getting under control and give it a hundred days and then see what happens that's my best advice we're five days into it maybe ten give it a hundred

SPEAKER_28: days yeah people don't people forget but two weeks ago i had hair i had a full head of hair and now

SPEAKER_00: it's all falling no that's not true all right so a couple weeks ago we had the guy behind deep research from google on the show great interview great time you were a big fan of the product sure i'm a big fan of the product then over the weekend open ai uh everyone's favorite closed ai shop uh dropped their own product and jason did you know they also called it deep research it's fascinating

SPEAKER_01: that they uh i'm shocked that uh uh in any way uh we would have open ai do something like steal somebody else's i mean it's kind of laughable right they just called it the same exact thing

SPEAKER_25: okay sure all right sure uh anyways i've pulled this segment from the announcement video um and i think it's a pertinent example something that you really care about but i also have uh i have a quick demo to

SPEAKER_00: show us so here is what open ai announced uh recently in case you have been living under the

SPEAKER_162: proverbial rock we are introducing a capability called deep research what is deep research deep research is a model that does multi-step research on the internet and what it does is it discovers content it synthesizes content and it reasons about this content adapting its plan as it uncovers more

SPEAKER_164: and more information so this is a finance problem so i'm an investment analyst in the silicon valley vc firm i want to analyze the market for civilian supersonic air travel and prepare a thorough investment memo and then many other specifications and so the model clarifies and we provided some additional requirements for the memo and then the model kicked off the task and as you can see it went and researched for seven minutes used 12 different sources and then came back to us with quite a comprehensive report of the field and you can imagine if you were doing this for your job this would be quite helpful to bootstrap your research as you're doing your initial investigation

Chamath Palihapitiya: yeah how much did they pay the original researchers for the report they built on top of their research

SPEAKER_17: i guess if they're giving citations they're going to claim it's fair use these deep research projects are really impressive because they are as they read the internet and scrape the internet they figure out what questions to ask next so if you were and we did this remember we did it with the model when we were doing our model of what would it take for self-driving cars yes oh you know for all of u.s rides well when you ask it hey what are it might ask what are u.s rides and it's like well there's car rides and it'd be like okay are there any other rides and you'd be like well there's subway rides and public transportation would you like to include those yeah those count as rides oh okay are there other rides oh yeah there are school buses oh you know there's carpooling whatever it is it might find things that you didn't anticipate asking a basic question and that reasoning and logic really does take things to

David Friedberg: the next level as we just saw at the beginning of the program with lovable so when you start using lovable.dev i wonder if it was it when it did mine it said i'm looking i'm using zero fasting as inspiration and i was like oh okay well that's interesting it basically did a search in its reasoning are there other fasting apps out there what can we learn from them what are their features and then it probably did a scrape of somebody at zdnet or cnet doing a review of zero fasting and what features they highlighted there and then said oh well let's create those features here so

SPEAKER_14: it's using some journalist or maybe reviews from the app store to then go figure out what other questions to ask and then build software so this kind of reasoning is taking it from being not just

SPEAKER_17: let's say a business process outsourcing worker in manila in india that's like okay let's fill in you know these variables into the database let's do this type of ocr character recognition whatever and then say oh what would a college person do oh what would a phd person do what would a management consultant do and i think they're kind of like already as good as management consultants oh i

SPEAKER_00: absolutely think so so uh two things one jason i i do have a demo to show you i did a deep research uh example but i also while we were talking did ask deep research from open ai the robo taxi question so it's currently working on that for us so we'll take a look but just to show what i came

SPEAKER_25: up with um for folks out there on the video i'll try to do a bit of play casting here but i asked

SPEAKER_00: deep research from open ai to do some work for me on the economics of being a small video game publisher one of my pet industries took seven minutes 30 sources and came up with and i'm not going to read this clearly because it's thousands of words a pretty interesting rundown of funding sources and then economic viability between major releases essentially how do you handle episodic revenue jason and i was very familiar with this question already and so i asked it because i wanted to just

SPEAKER_25: know how good of a job could it do and could it teach me something new and the answer to the second part of that was in this case no but i thought it was incredibly comprehensive if you didn't know

SPEAKER_00: anything and so i i think that these are more like if you don't have the information or knowledge they'll get you up to a solid b plus but they're not going to take you from a b plus to an a plus if you were already there and that is almost slightly disappointing to me but also based on what you said this is taking stuff that already exists if you've already read the source materials what more can it add

SPEAKER_43: there is a limited corpus of information in the world so if you were like hey how do i raise a

SPEAKER_17: venture capital firm today how do i raise my first venture capital firm today it can go and tell you the entire history of how venture capital firms were made and micro funds and all this stuff and give you the architecture but that doesn't give you the wisdom of asking somebody who just did it in the past two or three years or somebody who's an lp who said no to the last 10 that have come into their firm and say you know strategically here's what i think's gonna happen in the marketplace in other

David Friedberg: words predicting the future so perhaps deep research is where we're at now and then future predictions is where we will get to or current strategy or how to apply this knowledge so if it was you know the history was index the world's information find the world's information and then ai guessing the next word or answering your simple question then evolving onto research and being able to organize you know the entire corpus of information well the next piece is then either an agent executing on it uh-huh or an agent or an llm giving you advice and predictions of the future so there's not much left here all that's left for the ai to do is to build the venture fund and go raise the money or advise you on how to do it right and in your case uh build the game studio or build the game sure and so feels

SPEAKER_00: like we're on the cusp of the end game it does feel like we're on the cusp of the end game i'm increasingly impressed and i'm starting to think without forcing myself to oh i should use this more often this will actually help me as opposed to this is a toy i'm experimenting with much more that i should build this into my day-to-day workflow and i've been doing the same thing for a long time a lot of thinking a lot of reading a lot of typing stuff down and so i'm probably overly set in my pattern so if it's good enough now to actually jostle me from those ruts that says something to me that's that's pretty material i think this is better than what i've seen from google thus far but i bet you that google has something that's baking and in two months it'll be out and then open the eye will come back the pace here jason remains very quick and i think we're gonna see the stuff get out pretty broadly currently you have to pay the 200 a month open ai subscription but they are going to bring it down to the lower price tiers quickly and you know we've talked about ai scaling laws and costs thereof so i presume in 12 months this will be done in one time i think the reason they're limiting it to the

SPEAKER_17: 200 one isn't just to make money i think it's because when you fire these things off i think it's firing off concurrently many uh queries and i think that their servers would shut down because people if every query was deep research you know oh analyze the luka trade analyze all the trades in history like it could be launching 10 20 50 500 i mean the ai would go crazy so there must be some cap and i would love to hear from somebody what are the caps on these like does it fire off the first 50 and then stop and then require you to then say hey give me some more knowledge here and ask follow-up questions because these things could run indefinitely you could tell the ai just give me scenarios of trades and analyze trades potential trades future trades and make an agent that does this and it would just burn through cycles and compute so that i think that's where we're at right now is people are maybe concerned rightfully of how much compute is available inference is available to do all this

David Friedberg: and put it all together then there's storage and electricity i mean this could get very very very

SPEAKER_25: expensive over time but that's awesome because if it's expensive it's gonna get people to work on

SPEAKER_00: making it cheaper and that's gonna be awesome that's more capacity more bandwidth more storage more compute etc that's actually awesome i had a very different take on the potential risks here or issues i was thinking about the poor internet out there like if you're bob and you have bob's website and open ai comes to your website and just pounds it all the time with deep research queries couldn't this actually increase the total overall stress load on the internet let alone you make no money

David Friedberg: from it um the truth is they've probably uh ingested and are lying and have it in their index they've probably scraped all this data and they're keeping it on their own hard drives over time or the most common stuff in cash which you know they could claim it's in a cache and they don't know what's in the cache but what if the cache becomes like the size of the english-speaking internet which if you were to look at google cache almost every web page when you click google cache come used to come up i don't know today what the status of that product is but it used to be every single engadget page was cached every single tech crunch page was cached so they could claim it's in a cache but it's really for all intents and purposes ingested and they don't need to go read your webpage so this does actually uh put us back to the point of are you licensing this data do you have permission

SPEAKER_14: to do this should you need permission to do this should you be paying for it and then if somebody does pay for it i think that would be the power move whichever one of these companies is getting towards hundreds of billions of dollars in value why not just start buying content sites yeah how much is cnet worth now how much is tech crunch worth to yahoo how much is engaged 20 yeah so just why not just buy them and why not subsidize them and pay the journalists to keep producing content and then have it as exclusive

SPEAKER_00: to your platform so that's brilliant and i love that idea but also i was thinking you know you were talking earlier about how you know the llm is never going to have the wisdom of the person who did the thing most recently i wonder if in the end we're going to have a lot of ai model companies literally buying people's time and sitting down and asking them questions and just getting that directly in yeah

SPEAKER_17: that exists as a concept there are third-party startups that will have um developers accountants lawyers answer questions or look at questions being asked and verify them think about mechanical turk uh from amazon yeah but for white collar folks so if you said to the ai make me a logo in an art deco design and it got it wrong there are some designers somewhere who are answering questions on behalf of language models and these ai companies to refine it just like in the early days uh google and amazon had people saying describe this image oh that's two women baking a cake and

David Friedberg: you know they're in a country kitchen boom uh so yeah there that's actually happening and that could be a job in the future which would be a human in the loop working for an ai company yeah that could

SPEAKER_14: be the future of this of course you can create all the tools in the world but if people don't have the motivation to use them and create something of value for their fellow humans it's for moot so we saw this with the introduction of the vhs and the digital camcorder everybody said wow there's going to be like so many more movies and documentaries and you know it did get cheaper to make them and yes there is more content because it is cheaper to make yeah but it wasn't uh i guess what they would

David Friedberg: call a cambrian explosion you know that everybody made a documentary film or that there were a thousand times as many documentary films unless you count like maybe youtube existing as a concept so i do wonder like if people are actually going to use this to be productive i think they will because

SPEAKER_118: they're because they're they're voting with their wallet so the information had some reporting out

SPEAKER_00: in the last couple of days uh the information rights that paid subscribers to chat gpt nearly tripled to 15.5 million last year from 5.8 and that would put it on by their estimate about a four billion dollar run rate and then their api business they write um grew to what they think is about a 3.2 billion dollar run rate so if that is correct and we're working with estimates and third-party data and doing our best but that would put open ai on a seven billion dollar run rate just from those two products so i think people are voting with their dollars i mean i had to upgrade my open ai account to the expensive one to get this today to play with it for the show because i didn't want to talk about without having used it and i bet you i'm not alone man

Chamath Palihapitiya: uh there's going to be a lot of sampling of these tools as you pointed out with lovable

SPEAKER_17: um you know people will sample them they'll try them uh they might try five of them at once forget to cancel two cancel three then eventually cancel the other two so that that's happened before it happened in the app economy and then after people go crazy sampling they actually know what they

David Friedberg: need things are free the winners become apparent and yeah chat gpt is going to have a hundred million people paying for chat gpt at 20 bucks a month no doubt in my mind that would be 14 billion

SPEAKER_214: a year or something like that yeah 20 24 24 billion a year sorry yeah so if they had a yeah because it's 20 bucks a month but eventually i think that price comes down to ten dollars okay a hundred dollars

David Friedberg: a year for your llm a hundred dollars a year i mean you it's conceivable you could have 250 million people paying for a product or service like that in the western world which would be 2.5 billion a month uh which would be 30 billion a year so there's a 30 billion dollar tam just like netflix is on average probably 10 bucks for 250 million people actually similar netflix has gotten

SPEAKER_25: surprisingly expensive i know you and i don't track every dollar that changes in our monthly expenses but like it's like 20 bucks a month now i think it's like doubled since yeah but you also have places

SPEAKER_219: like india china other places that are two dollars a month three dollars average oh okay yeah yeah totally anytime you do yeah these averages you got to take into account what people in india and

SPEAKER_17: china and other developing countries or you know places that don't have as strong of a dollar but it's uh super impressive and i think the building of verticalized app and starting companies is going to be changed forever two people are going to be able to create products and services that make 10 million dollars a year uh that is going to change venture capital and the economy forever so the

SPEAKER_222: question there that i have jason is is it going to be uh let's imagine there's 100 million dollars in

SPEAKER_00: revenue for for an idea or a project or a company and let's say in today's world one startup will go out there dominate the market and get all 100 million dollars in revenue do you foresee in the future five or ten two person teams doing 10 million revenue a piece and they're all kind of existing at the same time or do we still see kind of a consolidation effect that we traditionally see

SPEAKER_32: in software and technology companies rolling those up there will be certainly uh roll-ups in m a um that

SPEAKER_17: occur it also requires that somebody want to go pursue that opportunity so many times you'll see somebody who has a really interesting medium-sized business they're like running a store in a local

David Friedberg: community or they have six of these stores in a local community and it's making 50 million dollars a year and it's like they dominate the northeast for tires but nobody else wants to go build that company that does flat tires because it's arduous and painful so you also need to have somebody want to go and make a better version of i'll keep bringing up the skiing app i use slopes sure does somebody have the motivation to take if that person's making 10 million a year does somebody want to go take the time to charge half as much and steal the customer base and make a million or steal a portion of the customer base who's price sensitive so you know that that's the reality of businesses somebody has to want to go displace a company that requires motivation one of the things that might happen is in society you'll have so much abundance that you won't be motivated or more people will be motivated to

SPEAKER_18: stay home and consume than create and that's kind of where we are now i'm trying to figure out that'd

SPEAKER_00: be net bullish or net bearish for venture capital because consumption on one hand drives gdp especially here in the us so that's good but on the other hand i think people still talk about venture capital being essentially founder constraint versus market constraint like there's not enough people who can break through walls and chew glass and so forth to actually found more generational companies yeah so i i hope motivation yeah yeah but i mean here's my thought about the 10 million dollar point in slopes 10 million dollars is 10 million dollars worth of motivation by definition

SPEAKER_230: that's a lot i don't know man would you like to have another 10 million sure sure i mean if you

SPEAKER_17: want to go pursue it and then it's a competition so even though we could both create slopes today and make that competitive product well if that person is on the edge keep coming up with new features keep looking at the latest apis and they just iterate and they keep the product getting better and better then people if the amount they're charging is less than the value people are getting what's the reason to leave and that's what happened with netflix netflix has actually pricing power that or disney plus like am i quitting disney plus with three daughters no just keep putting the marvel and disney and star wars stuff in there and i'm good i'll be subscribed and till i die the end right yeah

SPEAKER_00: they have it folks elsewhere in the world uh just really briefly before we jump deep seek is catching a lot of bands and jason i wasn't going to bring this up on the show but do you know deep seek is still the number one like ranked app in many national ios app stores today like i didn't think it was going to have that kind of staying power but something to keep an eye on i'm i'm shocked by consumer demand and

SPEAKER_17: just so people also know the ranking in ios is determined also by recency of a new app so it's not just how many raw downloads it has to do with how many new people are putting it on their phone for

David Friedberg: the first time so you can look up the um the app store algorithms they will give you know if a million

SPEAKER_17: people downloaded spotify today but a hundred thousand downloaded some new music app that competes with it that new music app might actually out rank spotify because it's a hundred thousand new

SPEAKER_25: new downloads as opposed to upgrades caveats caveats i mean so here's the u.s app store rankings deep seek you go to the united kingdom deep seek you go to canada deep seeks number one like that's

Chamath Palihapitiya: back in three months six months yeah i mean it's and it also can be gamed so i wouldn't put it above the chinese for gaming it like why is it going to number one i wonder like is it because it's free

SPEAKER_00: i think it's because it's free and open ai like we just discussed wants you to pay for things but in texas the governor has banned deep seek and red note on government devices in taiwan it's banned on government devices uh the navy and nasa are limiting usage congress wants to ban staff from using it so there is a slow rolling institutional response the hosted version yes yes because the hosted version would

SPEAKER_17: then send everything directly to the ccp yeah of course you want to do that and then the non-hosted version if you put it on your laptop or you were to run your own instance on your favorite cloud

SPEAKER_75: provider would be fine i guess uh i think that's i don't see a security issue there but i'm not a cyber security guy so you know check with your local it's open source so you'd have to find some

SPEAKER_17: backdoor it'll be sending the data back to the mothership somehow but the hosted version certainly

Chamath Palihapitiya: i would never allow on any government property no way no no huge loophole all right um jason just

SPEAKER_17: before we go do you want to talk about tariffs at all i mean give everybody the overview it seems to me like these are you know based on what i'm seeing they're a negotiating tactic that trump loves to use because it makes world leaders call him and bend the knee okay great i guess that works and then the other piece i've seen is there's a a couple of people on the fringe in the um let's

David Friedberg: say economic fringe who believe there is a way for a desirable market like ours to enact tariffs and get rid of income tax and that is some crazy obscure thought of how the u.s could change over time

SPEAKER_00: where do you want to go with it well i was just surprised to watch how fast people's perspectives have changed inside of technology uh we had anthony pompliano on the show a couple months back what i like about pomp is that whatever he does it's 110 percent and so when trump announced that there was going to be 25 tariffs on uh canada and mexico and 10 more on china pomp wrote a like a letter explaining why tariffs are good why they're not going to cause inflation and and then trump got on the call with the mexican president for like 20 minutes and they sorted out something and then that was taken down but can you imagine how tough it must be to like go forth and defend tariff policy only to have it be taken apart at the last minute like it's been it's been kinetic it's been very very busy over the last 48 hours and i i i i was raised in the chicago school of economics if you will and so i'm not a tariff guy i'm a free trade guy i i don't like them as i especially don't like tariffing our allies for no reason like i mean canada is a perfectly fine hat for the nation respect for our canadian canadian friends they're mad like we've actually managed to really anger an ally that we tend to not

SPEAKER_25: even think about and i think that's just a mistake and it's not good economics i mean if we charge them

SPEAKER_17: an extra amount to get their attention to close the border and then we relent i think that's probably what's happening here because i don't think we don't want to be able to send our stuff to canada and then it just where does it end like you charge 25 they charge 30 you go 35 like it just kind of eventually unravels and it's better for the world if the labor to build products and services goes to the cheapest place possible so more people have access to that product or service with the obvious caveat of you don't want to have an interdependency right you don't want to have the not be able to get drugs to your country or i don't know surgical equipment whatever it is uh gasoline you need you do need to

SPEAKER_46: have some redundancy in the supply chain so things being made all in one place is dangerous but i think this is all posturing and it'll it's just noise and again uh focus on your startup

SPEAKER_25: read the news once a day read the news book no don't read this once a day just tune in to twist

SPEAKER_00: three times a week we do this monday wednesdays fridays you can get all the news you need in 60 to 90 minutes jason and i will be here taking you through all of it we have an awesome founder interview coming on friday with another space company jason that i'm so excited about and um things are cooking along so we'll see everyone back here on wednesday all right cheers everybody