SPEAKER_00: That's what Steve Jobs actually wanted to do. He wanted to make these products here.

SPEAKER_01: And you and I were having a private discussion about just how dyskratiaed this company is.

SPEAKER_04: It's disappointing. That's how I feel. I feel disappointed. When we got the iPad, when we got the iPhone,

SPEAKER_06: you were looking forward to a lifetime of exciting Apple products. You were going to, every five years, there was going to be some new, amazing innovation. And it has not been realized, that vision.

SPEAKER_01: And once we got through the pipeline of whatever Steve Jobs had thought of, there was nothing bold left. And I said on CNBC, I think there's a case for Tim Cook, you know, leaving.

SPEAKER_12: This Week in Startups is brought to you by Sentry. Your team should be focused on shipping features, not chasing down bugs. New users get three months free of the business plan, which covers 150,000 errors. Go to sentry.io slash twist and use the code twist. Northwest Registered Agent. Starting your business should be simple. With Northwest Registered Agent, you can form your entire business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. From LLCs to trademarks, domains to custom websites, they've got you covered. Get more privacy, more options, and more done. Visit NorthwestRegisteredAgent.com slash twist today. And AlphaSense. Get deeper insights into your business with the power of AI search and market intelligence. Start with a free trial at AlphaSense.com slash twist. Hey, everybody.

SPEAKER_13: Welcome back to This Week in Startups. Alex is taking a little break, and we're doing our show with my guy, Lon Harris,

SPEAKER_17: the original, one of the original co-hosts of This Week in Startups 14 years ago. The original. Episode one. You were the original. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: Well, Tyler was sort of behind the scenes producing, Tyler Crowley, our old friend. Yes. And then, but I was the newsreader like right off the bat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_22: And he's still on the lam? See, he's somewhere in Thailand,

SPEAKER_06: I believe, somewhere on a beach in Thailand. People don't believe me. People ask, like,

SPEAKER_09: hey, whatever happened to Tyler from This Week in Startups? Why isn't he around? I was like, he's on a beach in Thailand. They're like, no.

SPEAKER_27: Not always on a beach in Tyler. Shout out to Tyler. Come on the show anytime. He took the model of, like,

SPEAKER_13: doing events and stuff like that. And then he learned working with me, which I gave my blessing on him. Took it to Stockholm, Sweden.

SPEAKER_29: Right. Made, like, a million dollars a year for five years. Bought a beach resort

SPEAKER_30: and then hung it up. Right. He's retired. Every time I see a post from him,

SPEAKER_32: he's on a hammock. Yeah. I'm an idiot. I'm still here 10 years later. Yeah, he taught him everything. I made a fortune.

SPEAKER_29: Today, Uber went up $3.45. And I'm sitting here

SPEAKER_34: still doing four episodes a week.

SPEAKER_23: What am I doing? You and I are here Thursday afternoon. You're giving up for podcasting. That's what you're doing with your life.

SPEAKER_13: Unbelievable. Unbelievable. You know what? I love it. I love it. Okay. We have a big docket today. I want to get right to work here. So much. Yeah. Where do we start here? I mean, do we have a funny story you want to start with to warm the audience up? Or do we want to just get into the big chat GPT-5, which launched today? Do we want to get into Apple? Genuflecting and bringing a gold bar to the press.

SPEAKER_40: And I mean, there's so much going on in the world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_42: I did love that. There's that shot. You know,

SPEAKER_06: the reporters are asking Trump about Epstein and all these other stuff. And it's back and forth. And then J.D. Vance is jumping in with his thoughts on all of it. And Tim Cook is there in the middle, just kind of standing there. Did you see that shot? Him just looking around like, what do I do now?

SPEAKER_43: Yeah. They should just put the they should put the Larry David music to it. Yeah. It's the Kirby enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_13: Yeah. Kirby, there's this. But I mean, in all fairness, you got to play the game on the field. And Tim Apple is doing a spectacular job.

SPEAKER_00: He showed up for the inauguration. And then he's the guy who has the most at stake when it comes to tariffs.

SPEAKER_21: And what did he do? He came to the White House and said, how much do you want me to invest in America?

SPEAKER_47: How big is the check?

SPEAKER_29: How much is the check for?

SPEAKER_14: And listen, I mean, say what you will. If we're sitting here a year from now

SPEAKER_00: and actually Apple's making products here, that's what Steve Jobs actually wanted to do. He wanted to make these products here. And you and I were having a private discussion about Apple.

SPEAKER_01: I think we'll start here. Just how this company is. It's disappointing.

SPEAKER_04: That's how I feel. I feel disappointed. When we got the iPad, when we got the iPhone,

SPEAKER_06: you were looking forward to a lifetime of exciting Apple products. You were going to, every five years, there was going to be some new, amazing innovation. And it has not been realized,

SPEAKER_09: that vision.

SPEAKER_00: And you and I were in Santa Monica doing Mahalo. And we would go to the Apple store, which had just recently opened. We were there for the iPhone launches. We waited in line.

SPEAKER_52: Overnight, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it was like some of the greatest moments in technology history was that showmanship and that commitment to releasing new groundbreaking technology.

SPEAKER_01: And I think once we got through the pipeline of whatever Steve Jobs had thought of, there was no, nothing bold left. And I said on CNBC, I think there's a case for Tim Cook leaving. I didn't say get fired. I don't think. I might have said that. And it was like six or seven years ago. We had the clip. I don't know if we still have it handy here. It would be a great one to play because we're going to talk a little bit about Apple today and open AI and innovation. And Apple had, when you think about a run, the MacBook Air, the iPad and the iPhone, the MacBook Air was a revolution in how light it could be to have a laptop. In fact, when he showed it, he put it in a manila folder or like an inter-office memo. Remember, he used to send inter-office memos

SPEAKER_14: in those brown bags, the brown reusable folders like envelopes.

SPEAKER_54: Those big brown envelopes, yeah, with the string on them.

SPEAKER_01: With the string on them. You didn't want it to have

SPEAKER_00: to rip it open, but you reused them and he pulls it out of that. It was like, wow, my mind is blown. And then, of course, you have,

SPEAKER_55: you know, like the Apple Watch was kind of underwhelming. It's not essential. The Vision Pro

SPEAKER_06: is the one I couldn't get. I literally, we were talking about this the other day. Somebody mentioned, oh, there was also the Vision Pro.

SPEAKER_23: I'd forgotten that product existed. You hear about it so seldomly. I think they forgot.

SPEAKER_60: I think they forgot because they have released a new one

SPEAKER_00: and haven't talked about it, which if you're going to commit to AR and VR, at least take three swings at the bat. Well,

SPEAKER_23: that was supposed to be the developer one and then that was going to come out. People are going to start making amazing apps for it and then you'd sort of think by now I would have one,

SPEAKER_63: right? Isn't that the idea? Like, where's my AR game?

SPEAKER_67: Or at least the developers would have a second one that was a little lighter, faster, better. Right.

SPEAKER_06: We should be on our way to consumer-facing AR apps and I know in my Founder U pod most recently, we had an amazing company that is designing

SPEAKER_23: 3D AR experiences. They look awesome. They're working with Snapchat. They're not working with Apple.

SPEAKER_69: And I think, you know, leadership, this is the important lesson for people, who you put in charge of something and what their skill set is.

SPEAKER_00: People generally do what they're good at, right? So for me, I'm a media guy. When I, at a communicator, when I got into the venture business, I was like, well, I guess I should do this podcast this week in startups because then I could talk about the startups I'm investing. We'll just do it one a week. It'll be like 50 episodes a year. I'll have Travis on, I'll have Calm on and maybe I'll meet some founders and maybe I'll learn something. So, you know, media guy does that. Other people are developers or maybe, and so they, you know, put up a bunch of servers. Like there was one group that put up a bunch of AI servers, a bunch of H100s and offered them to their portfolio companies. It's all different things. Some venture firms have recruiting. Some venture firms have PR and marketing. They all have different things they can help you with. Some of them even do corporate development where they bring in 10 big companies and they have them meet 10 of their founders. Yeah, yeah. See if they get some deal making going, right? Your first customer. But I said

SPEAKER_74: that Tim Cook should step down on CNBC.

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David Friedberg: and actually start making sense of what your agents are doing. That's Sentry.io slash twist.

SPEAKER_06: I've got it here. It was in September 9th, 2019. Angel Investor Jason Calacanis

SPEAKER_82: says Tim Cook needs to step down. You want to take a look?

SPEAKER_83: Sure. I mean, it could be cringeworthy. I'm also 10 pounds. No, 30 pounds.

SPEAKER_82: It's a little while ago.

SPEAKER_85: Here, let's think we could give it a little watch.

SPEAKER_86: What, Jason, does Apple need to do in your estimation to get an investor like Dan Niles more excited about the story?

SPEAKER_87: Yeah, you've got to fire Tim Cook. It's a disaster. I mean, I think they haven't done anything innovative since this device,

SPEAKER_89: which is magical. The iPods are amazing. I thought you were joking. You're being serious? No, I'm being dead serious. I think it's time for him to pass the baton because Steve Jobs passed away. The phone has been in decline since. There's no reason to upgrade your phone. So peak phone was, what, 2015? And it prints money, sure, but the major problem is they believe that any company that innovates out there is not as good as theirs. They need to watch what Zuckerberg did with Instagram and WhatsApp and what Google did with Android and with Instagram. Dan's going to buy back into the stock if they buy Tesla, if they buy Peloton, if they buy Spotify, and they start putting that $200 billion to work. Yes or no? Yes or no? Well, I mean... If they put Peloton in every store, would you buy?

SPEAKER_93: I'm not a... Well, I like my Stairmaster. The broader point that Jason's making, though.

SPEAKER_95: But the point he's making actually has a lot of validity to it in the sense that if you think... The one thing I will say Tim Cook has done better than any CEO is deal with the current administration. And so he's put his personal feelings aside. Yep. Obviously, openly gay man, high-profile CEO on Wall Street, and he's done a great job dealing with the Trump administration. So more than any other CEO, we're going to get a lot of credit for that. Now, on the innovation front, I completely agree with them. It's something I've said before. Apple, since the passing of Steve Jobs, but to be fair, he's a once-in-a-generation, maybe somebody like an Elon Musk that you're going to see. So that's a really tough...

SPEAKER_100: Isn't the stock up 250%?

SPEAKER_95: I forgot what the number is.

SPEAKER_102: That number may be wrong. My point is, though, the stock is up a lot under Tim Cook. That's because they're

SPEAKER_94: extracting so much money from their loyal fans. The margin on this is $150. Don't forget, they have a huge buyback.

SPEAKER_95: They have a massive dividend. And so that's great that the stock does really well right now. You guys were ahead of the curve here. For this company over the next two, three, five years, once that buyback starts to peter out and that balance sheet starts to wind down, they're not innovating that much. They're one year behind Samsung on 5G. When you're trying to have somebody cough up $1,000 for a new phone, I think that's a big deal. So, you know, I think the stock is going to actually do relatively well between now and when they have to report the fourth quarter. If you think of last year, right, stock did great for the first nine months. Should we keep going? They're going to sell 50% more phones in the fourth quarter. And I was on your show in August saying, I think Apple's going to have a huge problem because people are worried about China, yet they're somehow not worried about Apple that's got high teens percentage revenue. It's only $20 off the high. Yeah, but that has nothing

SPEAKER_111: to do with what Jason's

SPEAKER_110: their core problem. They are resting on the laurels

SPEAKER_89: of Steve Jobs' legacy. They need to put Tim Cook in another position, get Elon Musk in there, let him run the company. Find somebody like that, somebody who is maniacal about product. I mean, let's just sit here and realize that iPods are the greatest headphones ever made and that's the greatest thing they've done over there in 10 years.

SPEAKER_113: It's a disaster. And if they take that store footprint and they put a Model 3 in every one, if they put a Peloton thread in there and I've been using the thread. No, I think you're right. I mean,

SPEAKER_06: that was always Peloton's thing is you had to just go buy a Peloton. It wasn't on sale

SPEAKER_113: in a place you already were.

SPEAKER_89: 500,000 Peloton subscribers to at least 10 million. That's the type of acquisition you need to make

SPEAKER_113: if you're going to compete and they just have way too much pride. They think that they make the best products in the world and nobody else can.

SPEAKER_57: There we go. Okay, so, you know, when I look back on that

SPEAKER_69: and the Peloton, obviously they had big problems because they spent money like drunken sailors and it was a mismanaged company. But that category,

SPEAKER_00: if Apple went full bore into health, not just the watch, but actually bought Peloton and Tonal and they had a whole health thing and it was in, it was connected to the watch, it was connected to the health app, they would be what Whoop is. They, the Whoop is a better product. Whoop is more innovative than the Apple watch. It's not easy to be more in, it's not difficult to be more innovative

SPEAKER_83: than, it's just not difficult today to be more innovative than Apple. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: The other one that shocks me is that OpenAI Johnny Ive puck they're working on. Like, what?

SPEAKER_121: If it's a puck, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: Yeah, well, whatever it is. Like, that should be at Apple. That feels so naturally like what Apple would be working on. We're going to change the AI conversation with this new device that takes the tech and reinvents it in a way you hadn't thought of before. Like, that's what the iPhone was.

SPEAKER_69: So, the lesson here is you put a maniacal supply chain person in charge of an innovation technology company, what you will get is a,

SPEAKER_00: the most amazing, efficient supply chain in the world. What you will lack is somebody who fires the leaders of Siri, somebody who invests in, you know, AI five years ago

SPEAKER_01: and somebody who had the hootspa to launch a car. They did a project, Project Triton. Yeah, I think that's right.

SPEAKER_122: Project Triton. I'll look it up.

SPEAKER_124: Is it Triton or? Triton Project. You're correct. Oh, wait, no, maybe not. Hang on, hang on.

SPEAKER_01: I'll look at it. Something like Triton or that internal term for it might have been a metal as opposed to that. But they had hired, a thousand people to work on that. They had like a...

SPEAKER_54: It was Project Titan. Titan. Like the Greek, like the Greek God, the Titans.

SPEAKER_01: I mean, if Apple had launched their own car, self-driving,

SPEAKER_00: AI, it would have been, we'd have a completely different discussion about it right now, but Apple went for printing money and goosing the stock price. But at some point, even Warren Buffett, who cares about those issues, sold the stock because he realized in his infinite wisdom, well, if you don't have more product, then what's going to get sold next? I was just listening to the incredible, incredible, I'm almost done with it, the biography of Barry Diller. And he talks about taking over Paramount and how they had this like really bad funnel of pictures. They had to like ride them out, but then they created a whole series of like one win after the other, including Raiders of the Lost Ark and, you know, Friday the 13th, everything from genre pictures to blockbusters

SPEAKER_01: and they just crushed it and then he went on to do Fox, the fourth network. Right. That is a product innovation guy who makes mistakes and iterates. Steve Jobs, a perfectionist who iterates

SPEAKER_00: and is, got that vision and that, has taste. And this is, we're sitting here wondering what's going to happen with Apple. I mean, they've got lock-in but the iPhone might go away at some point if the future interface is a blank screen where you just ask an AI to do something

SPEAKER_132: which continues

SPEAKER_00: to be my experience is instead of being, you know, on an app, I'm just in a chat window, you know,

SPEAKER_64: and so that is kind of mind-breaking. The whole app ecosystem could change, you know,

SPEAKER_00: you want to order Uber Eats or DoorDash, you might just open the Uber app and just say something to it or you might open Chachipiti Claude and everything and it's hooked into your Uber Eats account

SPEAKER_136: and it just does it for you. I think we're on the verge of you don't open an app

SPEAKER_42: at all, you just tell your phone, I want to order Uber Eats and your phone knows, oh, that's the Uber Eats app, I will just open that myself. Which Siri was supposed

SPEAKER_140: to do but because there's nobody with taste there using the products.

SPEAKER_00: I wonder sometimes if Tim Cook uses the products because all of us are sitting there saying, by the way, the last four times I updated my phone and it broke or it was sloppy or the interface isn't good, Steve Jobs

SPEAKER_13: would have read them the riot act and I guess better late than never

SPEAKER_01: but I heard that two things have occurred. They fired somebody in charge of AI over the weekend and then they've been having

SPEAKER_13: their whole AI team get poached. Yes,

SPEAKER_06: they're losing a lot of people to meta and the interesting like we have I think we have this at a later story we're not seeing that necessarily with every other company like some like Anthropic is much better at holding on to its people even when they get extreme, you know,

SPEAKER_146: offers from Mark Zuckerberg whereas Apple's sort of bleeding out.

SPEAKER_148: Yeah, they just moved oh God the responsibility for the Siri for Siri was moved from John Giandrea Giandrea who was from Google to Mike Rockwell

SPEAKER_37: the exec behind Vision Pro. Yeah, John Giandrea What could go wrong?

SPEAKER_150: Yeah, Giandrea

SPEAKER_00: What could go wrong? I mean the fact that Siri cannot set a timer or like pull up a song or give me proper directions without a spinning wheel of death for 45 seconds I mean have you had that

SPEAKER_01: do you even try to use Siri, Lon?

SPEAKER_06: I gave up but there was a time where I was really trying to use Siri and Maps I think is the most frustrating because I have work, home like I've done the legwork of programming that in so I should be able to take Siri directions home and the phone you just know it and it never works I've tried it like three or four times and then I gave up it never works the other thing like there's a million just like little frustrating annoyances now with iPhones I constantly you know you have to like you flick up to close the app like I'm done in Safari but that also opens Siri so half the time I'm trying to close an app now it opens Siri and I don't want Siri and there's no I haven't figured out how to turn that off it's a nightmare

SPEAKER_158: founders if you've got a product maybe you've got some customers or even just a little bit

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SPEAKER_69: let's get into chat GPT

SPEAKER_161: yeah we got to talk about chat GPT

SPEAKER_69: so this is it's a good backdrop because Sam Altman wooed away like somebody with taste you know Steve Jobs his partner com Johnny Ive he made an acquisition and here's the problem

SPEAKER_00: the the people who are staying at Apple right now are probably not being put under the pressure Steve Jobs

SPEAKER_69: nor being given the inspiration so inspiration plus perspiration is like that's the leading that's the height of management

SPEAKER_01: in a competitive environment you sat in my senior meeting on Monday and you see how I operate which is hey you don't have to be at this company this venture firm but if you do here's what it requires if you want

SPEAKER_00: to win at venture and Tim Cook has not given that speech to everybody that we need to beat ChatGPT we need to beat Grok we need to beat Tesla we need to beat OpenAI he hasn't given him the pressure

SPEAKER_69: to do that and then you have companies running amok how is perplexity able to create two great products

SPEAKER_00: how is you know Elon able to catch up with Grok to everything in like under a year with XAI to build a data center with more GPUs than anybody in under a year inspiration perspiration it's the pressure that creates the diamond Tim Cook should

SPEAKER_69: announce a successor and he should just buy five companies this is what I would do I would tell I would have the board if I was on board of Apple I'd buy five companies I'd have five lunatic founders in a little group a SWAT team like a Seven Samurai situation I'd buy Seven I'd have my Seven Samurai

SPEAKER_01: and I'd say battle it out just like the head of Gulf Western did when he had Katzenberg Eisner Barry Diller and the kid stays in the picture

SPEAKER_14: oh Bob Evans Evans he I mean the amount of talent

SPEAKER_01: in Paramount Pictures at that time yeah it's crazy I just had four people who went on oh and I think they had Geffen too maybe at one point so they just stack the place with seven great leaders and see what happens and I told them they they have

SPEAKER_06: a lot of you know and you can you if you are an open AI subscriber you can just go right now and it's live and go to chatgpt.com it didn't it was only like an hour for me now yeah an hour before we went live it popped up by Buffy the vampire slayer and I went to chatgpt and I was like give me a list of every show other than Buffy that also has high do think is closer to like 80 90% of the answers are what I'm looking for fewer false positives so I do think on a personal level it does seem to have a little bit of an upgrade having said that watching the presentation it

SPEAKER_83: didn't do it

SPEAKER_173: Claude would have crushed this Claude actually would have probably crushed that I will say based on my experience

SPEAKER_00: I mean okay it's supposed to be faster better cheaper but you also

SPEAKER_69: need to have the wow and the

SPEAKER_181: tell me about that yeah

SPEAKER_06: so the gpt5's ability to write applications and write and edit code got a lot of attention from the stage we actually have a little clip of Michael Truell from Cursor demoing that gpt5 is already live in Cursor so you can do your vibe coding with chat gpt5 right now and it did it like a lot of people online were saying this that lovable bolt.new rosebud ai all of the replet all of these kinds of interfaces well if people could just go right to gpt5 and do that you know are they going to be

SPEAKER_70: using all of these sort of third party services it was one

SPEAKER_69: out new team which do vibe coding which is different than cursor which is more I think co-piloting for a developer and the vibe coding is for non-developers my guess right now is it's going to be much more I think it's going to excuse me I think we're going to see those services actually do better and they can also change their underlying model or use multiple models so I think what I learned from the chat GPT5 launch today is the biggest announcement is maybe that the pricing is better right is that maybe that's the

SPEAKER_174: biggest thing I have to use it

SPEAKER_06: Klaus Foppen who's an SEO guy he had tweeted goodbye lovable goodbye bolt you know chat GPT5 is just going to take it from here and then Logan Kilpatrick who is actually a product lead for Google AI said that's not how it works they get to use the models by default and take on a more advanced robust set of user problems likely to be very positive some for them which is the point of building a product that benefits from model progress their product is X percent better today so it's kind of what we've been you know saying like it I feel like this is always the back and forth in AI arguments is is AI going to replace the

SPEAKER_69: presentation I did two weeks

SPEAKER_01: thanks for helping on that there is like a commodification of LLMs happening this is what I thought of somebody yeah somebody showed the circle of all of them and then just move the you are here to open AI but even that other people started saying well wait a second here's the objective results on that there's a human test I forgot the name of it

SPEAKER_06: the humanity last exam

SPEAKER_01: okay humanity last exam I love that name yeah it sounds like a

SPEAKER_197: twilight zone episode right

SPEAKER_06: really it sounds like we're facing a test as a species that could let's write a twilight zone episode and we

SPEAKER_199: should and then we'll make it with we'll make a trailer for it with VO3 or something

SPEAKER_06: 2500 questions and the idea is it's from every a broad range of discipline so

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SPEAKER_01: and people are like it's the same you know they they or grok had done better grok five had done better so I think we're in this like dog fight where these things are hitting some level of parity as people

SPEAKER_00: move from startup to startup because of the competition for talent another ramification of that is they bring all the best practices from the last place or all the techniques and strategies and tactics so now what Zuckerberg really did by poaching all those open AI people is all of their innovations or their strategies their management techniques their philosophies you know that's all going to go into meta open source so we might be it's possible we might hit a trial of despair in the startup curve there's this sort of initial enthusiasm right

SPEAKER_01: and like oh this isn't getting things done that I need to get done or the product like Siri is not that great or my iPhone's battery keeps

SPEAKER_00: crashing or oh my Tesla FSD doesn't work when there's traffic cones you know you kind of get into the this messy middle

SPEAKER_210: yeah

SPEAKER_00: or trial of

SPEAKER_69: despair there's the two ways to refer to it and then you start to get real

SPEAKER_67: product market fit in specific verticals and then you start scaling it I

SPEAKER_06: like you do still have those like you just had where you were like oh maybe it can pull up all this great information about the last five all ins oh no it can't

SPEAKER_23: like and we are I feel like we're all in

SPEAKER_216: M4 processors M5

SPEAKER_219: processors all that silicon they made the silicon team yeah I

SPEAKER_01: mean shout out to them because every time I buy a new machine it lasts longer and longer it's better and better and cheaper and cheaper for the compute power so the you know the Mac Mini M4 I've praised to the cows come home and just an incredible incredible device I think Apple should have done their TV there was a rumor 15 years ago that I talked about I think on this week in tech even before this week in startups because Apple I had heard from some people I

SPEAKER_69: what's his name Walter Isaacson his biography he said he

SPEAKER_00: had figured out television and I think what he figured out with television was how to give one interface to all the different networks and you could easily find anything and

SPEAKER_69: have the video jukebox in the sky which was Steve Jobs is really prescient

SPEAKER_216: innovation for music

SPEAKER_54: it just Amazon did not Apple like Amazon is this exact thing

SPEAKER_06: you could buy a Fire TV it comes preloaded with Prime all the other streaming services are

SPEAKER_23: available through Prime channels in the television in your fire TV don't put an

SPEAKER_69: Apple TV and they decided they had to have that box and now I see some boxes have like some amount of

SPEAKER_01: Apple TV in it or AirPlay yeah people would have loved to have an Apple TV yeah I get a one on their wall

SPEAKER_06: I stream my Apple TV plus shows into my Amazon Fire TV it literally they figured they flipped them

SPEAKER_144: now it's Apple's making the content and it's the Amazon TV that you watch it on they screwed up so bad

SPEAKER_237: all right so we'll do more on that sure what else do we have

SPEAKER_54: oh we got so much we got Ripple

SPEAKER_06: we got Trump what's going on Ripple oh Ripple is buying a stablecoin service they're buying rail a stablecoin startup for 200 million dollars this comes of course just a few weeks after the passage of the genius act which codified the rules and regulations around stablecoin so now it is full speed ahead for these stablecoin companies so Ripple has picked up rail it's a payments business they use stablecoins and banking partners to help people move their stablecoins across international borders quickly and officially it's the initial promise of crypto it's what we were always told crypto was payments a value of about 3.6 billion

SPEAKER_69: yeah this just shows you there was so much potential lost in the last decade of crypto being this underground technology and why was it underground well you know regulations were not

SPEAKER_00: prepared for this and so we talk about regulations regulations can be good for technologists and this stablecoin regulation is a perfect example so now we talk all the time oh we have to get rid of regulations we have to get rid of regulations and now we're sitting here saying well wait a second the entire industry has been enabled by a new set of regulations what you need is a balance line you need to be able to say these regulations are old antiquated and do not apply to this new technology therefore we're going to come up with a new series of them what people do with regulations is they do regulatory capture they use them to keep their market share as opposed

SPEAKER_01: to enable new markets to exist say what you will about different administrations you know 45 46 I just like to refer to them by numbers you take the names out

SPEAKER_174: and freeze people's you know people you said it really well the other day in our group chat that people were in a psychosis or something

SPEAKER_170: oh uh Facebook psychosis social media psychosis I do yeah

SPEAKER_174: explain your thesis because this

SPEAKER_246: this stuck with me so perfectly

SPEAKER_06: sometimes you hear people speak and just by the way they're talking I feel like you could tell not only my real personal pet theory is not only you can tell they spend too much time on social media I think sometimes you can tell what social media platform they spend too much time on like based on the way people some people speak and the way they present arguments and their understanding you're like this person reads tweets all day all their information is coming from these bite size sound bite like they heard a slogan or a phrase that sounds good they really don't know exactly what it means but they saw that on Twitter and then Facebook it we saw we were watching a video it many different things at once she was yelling at him about like eight different trending stories like why did Trump fire the Bureau of Labor Statistics guy why is this tariff happening why what about that what about that and it's like this is not her own these are not things that she's upset about she was reading about this on Facebook and she's getting she

SPEAKER_250: might have been on drudge report or whatever her for you feed is and she's getting

SPEAKER_06: these different Facebook articles that she read mixed up and she's not quite clear on exactly how it all fits together the overall narrative and you saw this all you see this all the time where people will use these catchphrases or they'll refer to something like the laptop from hell and you're like unpack that do you really know what we're talking

SPEAKER_54: left or the right this is not partisan to me like I think this affects millions of Americans from every political and the second

SPEAKER_252: you try to unpack it and ask

SPEAKER_00: those same people the question okay what should the regulations be for crypto they don't have anything I spent years on this podcast saying here's a way to have a framework for crypto I said have a sandbox you can raise up to 10 million dollars from up to 10 thousand people and you can build a project they sign a waiver you have to know who they are and then if it grows to 100 million in value you have to register with one of these agencies and then you have to have insurance and in order to even be in the $10 million sandbox you apply with the SEC for a sandbox license and then those people who want to be in it have to take a basic test like a basic accreditation test that allows them to play in the sandbox and then on the SEC website you have here are the sandbox projects you know board apes this that the other thing and you so you hate crypto oh sorry oh you want to destabilize it and it was the same thing where they had been programmed to have a framework without just saying from first principles would it be great to pay 0% fee when we sent each other money right with a stable coin and not have any intermediary if I just like I can hand you

SPEAKER_01: shouldn't that exist and if the technologist can build it special interest etc so when we think about regulations that's just something for people I think to keep in mind for Ripple pretty amazing that this company got out of their SEC investigation they were like the number one in the cross hairs and I

SPEAKER_69: allegedly according to this indictment is that what it is the case I believe so yeah yeah an indictment the SEC

SPEAKER_216: had against them which after they donated I

David Friedberg: securities but the security sales were happening on other platforms and Ripple wasn't even aware of them I got it yeah and so they couldn't prove

SPEAKER_269: that yeah yeah yeah

SPEAKER_69: so anyway that's all that's over stablecoins is the first viable business when interest rates come down which it seems like when we get a new head of the Fed and based on the unemployment numbers we just saw the revisions to them there's definitely going to be two cuts later this year and we'll probably have inflation go above 3% again and

SPEAKER_174: it'll be funny to see like the group of people who were complaining about inflation be like oh no inflation is totally manageable at 3% or 4% this

SPEAKER_276: is the social media psychosis I'm

SPEAKER_01: change so you know hey you

SPEAKER_69: know in this case if you lower the interest rate people invest more more money gets flooded system people make less money from their savings account and they'll make less money on the float of all this money in a stable coin which means people will be like oh that's not a good option I would be losing money every year if the stock market was growing seven the number between one and seven would be the percentage you were losing by not keeping up or missing that opportunity so it's probably a smart move for them because they have sold I think hundreds of millions to billions of dollars in Ripple put

SPEAKER_00: that into their coffers XRP token I don't know that anybody uses that but they have built some other banking tools I don't know the status of them I've never heard of any startup ever using XRP for anything

SPEAKER_01: ever so like as a platform I have an exchange because you make the fees on the exchange like Coinbase or

SPEAKER_148: FTX previously or Kraken today and then what was the third I had a third the float for stable coins oh and

SPEAKER_06: up a blog post on Binance where somebody is arguing Ripple is about to become the micro strategy of XRP they're going to stop selling it is

SPEAKER_01: years it's kind of what they did so they

SPEAKER_148: originated all their coins they didn't have like a mining concept so smart move for them they need to find a business in there

SPEAKER_06: Bitwise CEO Hunter Horsley said in a recent interview that this is the plan Ripple is going to undergo an identity transformation and become the world's largest crypto asset treasury so there you go

SPEAKER_175: there you go okay that's fine

SPEAKER_69: but that is based on people wanting to own XRP right I think this is all going to end in tears there was some legislation or an executive order today I don't know if you saw that there was an executive order to a lot of people in let's say you have a million dollars in your retirement account and hey I got plenty of time I'll put 100k into Bitcoin I'll put 100k into a bunch of apartments that

SPEAKER_01: assets for a living they're not regulated

SPEAKER_174: some

SPEAKER_01: cases they're fugazi fugazis

SPEAKER_298: or whatever else

SPEAKER_297: but your philosophy you know the way that you

SPEAKER_06: operate you're making so many bets it's like well we don't need all these bets to come through like that's how you could do it in an organized way but if you're a random individual put your 401k into a company you don't want to just make a random bet well

SPEAKER_11: you see how much work it takes to make 100 bets a year right exactly

SPEAKER_01: you basically I think to hit diversification in my book angel I asked is probably the mean and the median

SPEAKER_69: that people said is what you need for diversification what

SPEAKER_00: grandma in Florida or retiree in Arizona is going to have the ability to pick 40 different companies exactly that's out of the reach of

SPEAKER_69: 401k

SPEAKER_302: holders yeah

SPEAKER_69: you'd have to meet with 4,000 to do it the way truth

SPEAKER_304: social I

SPEAKER_06: really like I feel like this is a glimpse into our the most dystopian version of our AI future the president's media company truth social he owns a chunk it's not his exclusive company he owns a big chunk of it along with his family so the company truth social announced their own AI chat bot truth social AI it is the web version of truth social but it's coming to the iOS and the Android apps very soon now they're saying this is it's going to give you more accurate answers the chat bot is going to give and I quote direct contextually accurate answers with transparent citations in an effort to exponentially increase the amount of information available to truth social users but here's the rub they're using perplexity sonar API but as with anybody running their own custom version of perplexity they decide what sources get fed into it it has nothing to do with perplexity the AI is just going to search whatever sources truth social tells it to pull up information so Axios got access and started asking questions like what happened on January 6 2021 why was Donald Trump impeached did Donald Trump lose the 2020 election and had citations from Fox News many had citations from Fox Business the Washington Times Epoch Times Trump friendly publications and they noticed that if you go to general public perplexity it'll give you responses from Reddit from YouTube from Esquire from Politico from NPR all over you don't get those responses from true social you really only get what information gets pulled into the AI I think that's dangerous because people trust AI they think this is a computer it's not going to be biased it's going to tell me the truth

SPEAKER_69: it's an extension of the world if you're on Instagram if you're on

SPEAKER_55: blue sky is falling if

SPEAKER_311: it puts the spiciest most

SPEAKER_69: viral thread images in my Instagram feed to try to hijack me lure me over

SPEAKER_01: there I think it's just more of the echo chamber I think people are going to just as it learns about you one of the big things in

SPEAKER_313: both chas

SPEAKER_144: gpt and claude claude is scared claude is getting scary claude knows a lot about me

SPEAKER_317: yeah well I don't need to don't put that on the screen I don't know if we all need to know about your

SPEAKER_321: Japanese manga I'm on a business account on claude I'm not asking him anything absolutely no way

SPEAKER_69: so I think it's interesting I think memory is going to do that as well if you say I

SPEAKER_00: am a Christian I don't believe in gay marriage I don't believe you know in abortion I don't believe in contraception it'll just like

SPEAKER_69: you know over time it's not going to tell you those things and you could tell it I believe you know this

SPEAKER_00: side of this war is correct that side isn't and just show me results that I like these things are built to please and that's a big thing that people have to understand is we're building these things not for truth we're building them to please people so

SPEAKER_01: it is what it

SPEAKER_00: you so if something changes like statins there's a big debate over statins right now right are they healthy are they not should you take them baby aspirin should you take them

SPEAKER_64: you not you know all these kind of things if you ask an LLM it's not thinking oh you know for lawn at this age and this BMI and this diet they should do this this and this it's just thinking what did I read what did I learn what did I train on and let

SPEAKER_216: me just rephrase it so I don't get a copyright infringement when I rephrase it and give it to I

SPEAKER_69: 1967 this computer program that was designed to like basically communicate with you in a

SPEAKER_01: chat interface it wasn't AI it was just keying on keywords oh you talked about your mom tell me more about your mom kind of like a therapist might do in an open ended way

SPEAKER_69: you know that confused people but this leads to

SPEAKER_148: all in the all in podcast the

SPEAKER_337: all in

SPEAKER_148: podcast that is causing

SPEAKER_00: people are doing therapy with chat GPT and other LLMs and they're building friendships and young kids are doing it and it's so placating and pleasing that now people are good as me or this did things that I didn't think of doing as a therapist which leads you to believe one of two

SPEAKER_174: things either that person got one shotted is a new term people are using or there it is I'm a therapist chat GPT is eerily effective or eerily effective or

SPEAKER_00: therapy is like a playbook that could be replicated in a to some extent

SPEAKER_342: yeah

SPEAKER_140: not well maybe but I mean if you think

SPEAKER_01: about what it does it paces you you ask open ended questions and a lot of therapy based on my psychology degree from 30 years ago

SPEAKER_00: was just the idea of sharing with another human being as your witness was cathartic and helped you get extent if you believe this is sentient in some way or a genius in some way which is how it was presented today Sam Waltman said this is like a graduate student

SPEAKER_279: and will soon be the smartest yeah it's like talking

SPEAKER_348: to a PhD yeah

SPEAKER_279: so if

SPEAKER_64: it's being pitched as a PhD then

SPEAKER_216: consumers if Sam says this is a PhD well you know who else has a PhD clinical psychologists right therapists

SPEAKER_69: yeah so governor Pritzker signed legislation on Monday prohibiting AI therapy

SPEAKER_00: in Illinois now I don't know if people were actually using it but I think he's kind of getting ahead of the curve which I'm curious what you think about that yeah

SPEAKER_06: I it to be a therapist they just fed it a lot of text and now it's a good predictive engine it knows how to respond to you but it's not a therapist it's not licensed it doesn't know that what it's saying is going to help cure you it's just trying to come up with the best possible response it can to what you said and you're right that I've been in therapy and 80% of the time that is all a therapist is doing they're just like hearing what you said throwing it back at you in a slightly different way or what if you thought about it like this or maybe this relaxation technique might work and an LLM could do all self

Chamath Palihapitiya: driving you know like there's going to be a time when a garbage bag goes

SPEAKER_69: flying across the front of your car and it thinks it's a truck and slams on the brake and

SPEAKER_01: somebody hits you from behind and it's like okay well that's like a random thing a giant tarp flew across the highway I've never seen that in my life of 50 years on the road but I'm sure at some point a tarp will fly across the road and a waymo will think that's a truck slam on the brakes

SPEAKER_212: yeah

SPEAKER_01: and like

SPEAKER_212: I said most of the time if you're simulating a person going to their therapist to be like I

SPEAKER_06: feel anxious and the therapist is going to be like well here's a breathing exercise like there's not a ton that couldn't go too wrong thoughts and like you you don't want the AI then you want to encourage you well I mean I don't think an AI

SPEAKER_04: necessarily knows I don't know what to say in that situation why would an AI I

SPEAKER_197: know there was literally a case where this

SPEAKER_69: character AI software I wouldn't say it hold the person when I saw the chat transcript I we're both

SPEAKER_01: mobsters and we have to go solve this problem we gotta go whack somebody it's like the Sopranos or it's like Goodfellas like yeah it might tell you to kill somebody because it thinks it's writing a script

SPEAKER_00: and so the line is getting blurred here I heard these same arguments about Dungeons and Dragons about certain television shows where

SPEAKER_01: these new things you know so ago about federal versus local regulation of AI

SPEAKER_362: so I

SPEAKER_127: wonder if Pritzker is

SPEAKER_00: specifically doing local AI regulation and we'll see Texas or you know whatever New York follow suit which is hey we know what's best for the citizens of our state we don't need the federal government telling

SPEAKER_69: us you know which is run by one party right for the president you

SPEAKER_174: know if it was specifically California or I don't know if Chicago went for Trump I believe Illinois

SPEAKER_290: went for Biden that's a good

SPEAKER_171: question because I think they're like kind of purple right so anyway states

SPEAKER_146: went for Trump right so

SPEAKER_365: yeah yeah yeah they big win so should

SPEAKER_69: the Trump administration tell the sovereign state of Illinois their AI regulation should I don't know if Pete Buttigieg wins 2028 and AOC wins does Texas I can

SPEAKER_00: tell you Texas don't want AOC telling us what to do in regards to AI here certainly not in

SPEAKER_01: I think states have some rights in the operating system of America and in

SPEAKER_368: this one regulation

SPEAKER_369: I am and boy far be it for me to say this too often but I am a little bit partial

SPEAKER_06: to the the David Sachs AI czar argument that that is putting a huge onus burden on these companies that if I'm anthropic if I'm perplexity even if I'm Google and now it's like I've got 50 different states and they all might have different approaches and it's what we're seeing right now with Australia and Great Britain and age verification I don't know if you've been following this but if you want

SPEAKER_371: to

SPEAKER_06: be on social media now in Australia and Britain they have laws against minors under 16 and they coming up with all kinds of there AI tools that will look at your face and evaluate there all kinds of credit cards whatever but you know like YouTube is very upset about it verification login problem

SPEAKER_01: you also if you went to a drug store or you know a 7-Eleven you can't buy nudie magazines as a minor or cigarettes right there's age verification for those things you gotta show ID if you want smokes

SPEAKER_333: yeah

SPEAKER_01: yeah and so if you were a parent you know unlimited unrestricted porn Instagram predators on these platforms like I deciding social media is not a net benefit for kids and kids should be required to log in I actually am in favor of it I think it should come from the industry not from legislation I

SPEAKER_14: can set up an Uber teen account now

SPEAKER_69: I didn't realize they had that yeah so you set up an account for your teens it goes you get and then that becomes a benefit because you get to

SPEAKER_01: watch your teen in an uber you get selected with the most reputable drivers with the cleanest records yada yada and you

SPEAKER_00: there was like some creepy uber driver

SPEAKER_01: or if your child was being abusive towards the driver you had a bad kid like pretty pretty great solution right yeah I think that should be the solution and I think the two phone operating systems should have gotten together and if they have their iphone set up properly because you can set up kids accounts on iphones the parents the kid can ask to install instagram the parents have it the parents see the instant messages they see who's following them it lets them know if a keyword came up in a direct message etc. Like I can see my kid's devices and where they

SPEAKER_175: local July 4th parade in hill country

SPEAKER_64: or a fair we went to a fair and hey you let the 15 and 16 year olds go do whatever they want and you know where they are on the map and you go find them if you need them I'm 47

SPEAKER_380: my mom would use this all day yeah she would she'd still be using it in

SPEAKER_174: Korea if you according to producer Claude I

SPEAKER_69: resident registration number basically your social security or alien registration card your green card yeah this makes it difficult for short term visitors or tourists to sign up for local services but foreign residents with valid IDs and phone

SPEAKER_181: start up questions for this week right out of breaking news next

SPEAKER_06: if we got some other news we got anthropic news they put the

SPEAKER_390: anthropic news okay so

SPEAKER_06: during a recent podcast with John Collison Stripe co-founder friend of the all in pod anthropic CEO Dario Amade discussed his company investors and more we got some good quotes so here's how how the market reacted to Amade early revenue expectations for anthropic so he told he told John Collison AI is strange in a number of ways I think one of the ways is strange is that because it's an exponential we have a hard time calibrating exactly how way it's a big number and it's because investors to say this is crazy this has never happened before in the history of capitalism you've lost all credibility with me goodbye but then but then they actually did it and in the next year he was saying oh well I think we can go from 100 million to a billion and having done it the first time he wasn't dismissed as crazy but was still often dismissed as crazy and then he did it again and so this year

SPEAKER_23: we're halfway through the year as you mentioned they're well past four billion in revenue in the logarithmic space so they're going to

SPEAKER_01: the language models and associated tools that you could love in there just all the revenue from this I base it on a billion people in the modern world

SPEAKER_69: what we used to call the first world spending call it 50 bucks a month that's 50 billion a month now they might spend it you know $25 on this $10 on that some people might spend $200 on you know Claude Pro and other people that's enough for them or run a local version of an LLM eventually but if you put all that together you know 50 billion a month 600 billion a year across just that billion users that's not like other businesses that will be

SPEAKER_06: not sign up for that it it it it's very like once you're in you're in and so I feel like there's not going to be a ton of churn with a lot of these AI apps like I

SPEAKER_54: just

SPEAKER_396: upgraded yeah I never want to get

SPEAKER_54: rid of Notebook LM that would ruin my life if I had to get rid of Notebook LM I

SPEAKER_06: headache that you know somewhere in this hour long video is a quote that I need is a little bit that I need somebody said something in an episode I think it was this one maybe it and you ask it in regular language does Jason say something about Apple's earnings in this video and it pulls it right up and it can tell you time codes yet I'm sure that's coming Google if you're listening to this time codes in Notebook LM amazing but it can tell you where it'll be like it's towards the beginning or about halfway game it changes the whole game

SPEAKER_279: yeah and imagine you have it automatically doing that with a larger corpus of like the 2000 episodes we've done yeah if you could put right 200 from all in and

SPEAKER_173: that's coming I know

SPEAKER_06: that one day I'll be able to do that and just put in our entire archive and be like what's every time John Collison from Stripe was on and find every quote he ever gave about traction and it'll just be like bloop bloop and that would have been months of work

SPEAKER_148: you know it's I go back and forth

SPEAKER_69: between trying to figure out if all this money being invested because we're deep in a j-curve right now we're spending hundreds of billions of dollars on this infrastructure and you know Anthropics got five and you know whatever I don't know Grok's got a billion or two and you know chat GPT open AI has 10 billion going to 20 and every single

SPEAKER_144: day there's another

SPEAKER_06: story about this company is getting another billion this company is looking for an extra billion they're spending two billion on chips it's a 10 billion data center I mean it's just constant it's constant

SPEAKER_69: so you know and you know what they're what the depreciation of all those are and can we ever get above water is the

SPEAKER_174: question you know yeah I think yeah I

SPEAKER_06: this point like we can't afford to not have it it's too big to

SPEAKER_23: fail now

SPEAKER_279: I mean also the results are just too good you know like this story we just did on AI in Chicago or in Illinois

SPEAKER_69: I was able to even though we didn't have it on the docket put it into producer club get the bullet points and then read it

SPEAKER_413: of data it's

SPEAKER_06: revolutionary I mean it is if that's ever a part of your job you love AI because it does save a tremendous there's nothing that compares to it in those terms we got some earnings we got Bumble and DoorDash earnings we got some

SPEAKER_54: reddits we got a tell me

Chamath Palihapitiya: what's what's going on

SPEAKER_69: with DoorDash and Airbnb you know Bumble I see they lost users and struggling all these dating apps are going to have a problem because young people don't date anymore

SPEAKER_170: right well actually that's an

SPEAKER_06: interesting Bumble one of their plans for getting back on top they're introducing a new BFF app for Gen Z it's not a dating app it's a friendship app they're just going to try to help you build IRL friendships host community events specifically because the young

SPEAKER_09: people don't they're not interested in dating so I thought that was interesting

SPEAKER_279: this COVID generation got dealt a really bad hand and I think they didn't learn in a lot of cases you know

SPEAKER_69: how to make friendships how to be a friend yeah they lost like you know four or five years now of socialization right and they also learned how

SPEAKER_75: yeah

SPEAKER_00: and they right like you know like sometimes

SPEAKER_69: people get out of prison and they were in solitary or whatever and they just want to be left alone like you'd think they would come out and be like yeah I want to go party seven nights a

SPEAKER_06: year over year hitting 761 million people love those taxi rides for their burritos revenues up 24% over last year to 3.3 billion total platform spend grew by 20% the company anticipates significant ongoing investment in both new categories and international markets and of course you'll recall just back in May DoorDash acquired two companies UK delivery startup Deliveroo for 3.9 billion and Seven Rooms

SPEAKER_38: a restaurant tech company for 1.12 billion

SPEAKER_175: yeah they've also experimented with like food halls they had a food hall

SPEAKER_69: experiment they're doing drone delivery reportedly they've got like their own little laboratory doing that

SPEAKER_175: so it's a pretty innovative company they have a singular mission the founders are still there Tony you know is still running it so I think they're going to do great and then Airbnb I think they're growing but maybe not as much as people thought they would people thought Airbnb was going to run away with it and Airbnb stock has been one of these stocks that maybe came out very high and if you check check out the five year chart for Airbnb it's an incredible company it's been growing but I guess this means it has to you know if you put I don't know if you put a dollar in if you bought a share for $200 you

SPEAKER_01: lost 40% as of today and they've been growing so it's pretty strange I think that maybe has to do with they just had such a strong IPO and they're doing catch up which could be what we see from Figma Circle and Core Weave that these incredibly strong IPOs take a decade to catch up

SPEAKER_313: to

SPEAKER_01: the

SPEAKER_144: initial frothy excitement when they first landed so growth based on night slash seats that's their primary

SPEAKER_06: metric grew about 7.4% that's about the same growth rate as they saw in Q2 Q3 revenue was 3.1 billion net income 642 million they did warn the rest of this year they're concerned about tough year over year comparisons due to demand trends lots of recent forecast warning travel demand is about to drop due to worsening economic activity uncertainty and they're showing slower gains than impacted global results if you leave domestic American travel out total nights and seats booked would have grown

SPEAKER_434: by double digits so it's it's North America that's holding yeah

SPEAKER_69: I think they have some markets they're not allowed in or they're restricted in now I know in Tahoe right Tahoe had a big crackdown on it they limited the number of licenses a lot of communities you know got taken over by speculators buying homes turning them into Airbnbs annoying neighbors removing the sense of community you know which is really more of an issue of we don't have enough housing supply and so people are getting a little tweaked about there not being enough housing for people who live in Hawaii or

SPEAKER_439: the capital of the world LA Palm Springs

SPEAKER_174: San Francisco a lot of places that do a really great job on it so but

SPEAKER_69: you know the founder there is incredibly dialed in they keep doing incredible new product releases so I am long term a fan of their business I

SPEAKER_148: they own a collection of Expedia stock well and Expedia

SPEAKER_170: is also great because it's already kind of the all in one travel like you could do the rental car

SPEAKER_82: you could do the hotel you could do all the little bits and pieces only worth

SPEAKER_69: 16 billion there was talk about potentially Uber buying it because Dara worked for

SPEAKER_01: speaking of Barry Diller he worked and ran Expedia for a while so if you have an everything app I do think we're going to see consolidation in the coming five years like

SPEAKER_447: TripAdvisor or something all

SPEAKER_01: of these travel buying

SPEAKER_127: tickets for things there is Vader or something for experiences Vader oh right Vader

SPEAKER_449: yeah yeah V-A-E-T-O-R or something like that

SPEAKER_127: very popular in Europe where people V-I-A-T-O-R

SPEAKER_449: Viator

SPEAKER_127: Viator which I think might be part

SPEAKER_216: of Expedia or part of another TripAdvisor

SPEAKER_450: it's a TripAdvisor company

SPEAKER_216: it's a TripAdvisor property

SPEAKER_01: yeah so you have all these properties and a lot of these properties were based upon

SPEAKER_69: advertising and then you know becoming marketplaces and then they have to buy their customers from search engines to get them there so that does make it difficult too I was planning a trip recently and I was using Claude and some other services to do it and it was just giving me direct links to the hotel and then I have my assistants call and check you know and then sometimes they'll ask you know hey we're considering different things here what's the best deal you can give us and when you call a hotel direct and you say hey I'm coming for five days we're looking we have four or five different options I'm on a corporate account now what's the best deal you could give me for a corporate coming for five days for this type of room is there anything you can do for us and you'd be surprised when you call

SPEAKER_174: fabulous

SPEAKER_388: we'll see you all on Monday bye bye