SPEAKER_00: All right, everybody. It is a big Monday energy day. My Knicks are winning. I've been spending some time on the slopes, Molly. I am so enthusiastic on a Monday.

SPEAKER_01: Look at those endorphins. I love it. You'll love to see it.

SPEAKER_03: We are going to have a great conversation today. First up, we're going to talk about Salesforce CEO, Mark Benioff. We just have a lot of their CEO vibes in the air, questioning the productivity of recently hired employees. There has been a lot of chaos there. So we're going to talk about kind of like a little bit about how CEOs respond to downturns and changing work environments.

SPEAKER_04: It's a good conversation with a lot of nuance.

SPEAKER_08: A lot of nuance. Molly plays the role of the union leader, the workers representative, and I play the founder executive class. We lean into it and we talk about the big question. Should young workers be forced to come into the office or should young, inexperienced workers in their first job be allowed to work from home? You're going to be surprised by the answer.

SPEAKER_10: And then we talk about a report that open AI is making 200 million a year and they protect 1 billion next year and what that means.

SPEAKER_02: Yes, what that means and how.

SPEAKER_03: And then just for fun, just to put Google on notice once again, another edition of Google or chat GPT and then a new ish feature. We've done it before, but we're making it more formal little big things featuring Instagram.

SPEAKER_14: Instagram feature.

SPEAKER_15: Yeah. Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_08: This is very good.

SPEAKER_17: But you're going to love round two of Google versus chat GPT. The answers might surprise you. They did a little bit.

SPEAKER_18: It's everybody. It's going to be a great show. Stay with us.

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SPEAKER_10: Hey, welcome back to Mondays, everybody. It's Big Monday Energy. How you feel, Molly? How you feeling? So good. You look like you've got Big Monday Energy.

SPEAKER_23: I do have Big Monday Energy. I'm fired up today. Good for you.

SPEAKER_24: Fired up. Had a nice Hanukkah dinner. Had to burn my sweater. Oh.

SPEAKER_25: You know how like, I don't know if you're familiar with this, but yeah, exactly. So I had a first night dinner and I don't know if you're familiar with the way that the

SPEAKER_03: first night dinner goes, but you only wear an outfit that you are prepared to burn because if you enter a house in which latkes have been made, you leave and your sweater forever

SPEAKER_25: smells like grease and onions, which is the best part of first night. But you got to, you got to just dump that thing.

SPEAKER_30: Latkes are my favorite. I used to go in the Lower East Side. It'd be one or two in the morning, maybe even three or four. We'd be getting out of a club. We'd be hungry. And we would go to the Lower East Side. We'd go to a place called Valsacca. And then there was another place called Odessa on Avenue A. And we couldn't afford stuff, but they would have like six pierogies or two latkes. They were like a dollar each, two dollars each. And we'd go eat pierogi with onion and applesauce. Pierogi is so good. Latkes with sour cream and grilled onions. And it was just all the poor kids.

SPEAKER_35: Plus the Ramones. I kid you not. As in Joey? Oh, hey, Joey Ramone. Oh, okay. He lived on like A and St. Mark's area. So this is New York in the 90s. Y'all missed it. I'll keep telling 90s New York stories till the day I die. It was just the greatest era ever. But there was a lot of news going down here. And I just want to, off the top.

SPEAKER_00: I have to make a statement since there's so much breaking news and I didn't even prepare Molly for this. I know.

SPEAKER_40: So sit down, Molly, and let me break this news to you. Do I need my red flag? Yes or no? It is critically important that I make the statement here.

SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of polls going on, a lot of emotions. And I've given it a lot of thought. And I am fully in support of Bob Iger coming back to Disney. Okay, let's get to the news.

SPEAKER_35: Okay, there's a lot of CEO news. And I just want to say, CEO news over the weekend. I've been getting texted by Bloomberg, by Wall Street Journal, Washington Post. Everybody wants to know my opinion.

SPEAKER_30: They said, hey, can we talk to you about the CEO job? And I said, I think Bob Iger should take it. And so that's my final statement. I'm going to keep it at that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_50: Well, in other CEO news that I will be asking you to comment on on this show. Okay, here we go. Salesforce CEO, Mark Benioff.

SPEAKER_54: Keep the bit going.

SPEAKER_51: Made waves over the weekend on his company's internal Slack.

SPEAKER_03: Okay, so I've been waiting. Many people have been waiting for the big dishy, what the heck is going on at Salesforce? Correct. Article, because there's been a lot of disruption at Salesforce recently.

SPEAKER_55: So by way of context for this setup, Salesforce has had a bunch of high profile departures in a short period of time, right? So co-CEO Brett Taylor and Slack CEO Stuart Butterfield left in the same week. Lost in that week, Tableau CEO, Mark Nelson. Tableau, of course, having been acquired by Salesforce, also announced that he was stepping down just days apart.

SPEAKER_03: The company lost a CTO in that same week. All of them said, oh, this is just coincidence.

SPEAKER_25: But then Business Insider recently published a list of 21 Salesforce executives that have left in the past year. Like high level people.

SPEAKER_59: Okay. You know, that is a big number. We don't know the denominator. So there's that. But okay.

SPEAKER_03: I mean, they have however many, you know, but it's like some former CEOs.

Jason Calacanis: It's a lot of, it seems like CEOs of companies that Salesforce acquired, but not completely. The former chief innovation officer.

SPEAKER_64: Which is normal if they fully invest. Like, what's his name?

SPEAKER_61: Stuart left after the two year of S, right? Right. So that's normal.

SPEAKER_03: But you had your, let's see, chief strategy officer and chief revenue officer. SVP and general manager of Trailhead, SVP of marketing, COO of marketing, executive vice president of sales, EVP of chief customer technology, or EVP and chief customer technology officer, and so on and so forth, right?

SPEAKER_55: General manager of marketing cloud, SVP and GM of experience cloud, like a lot of execs, a lot of executive level departures. So there were Wall Street Journal did publish kind of a dishy report that was a little bit Bob on Bob. We are going to talk about the Bobs later about Benioff and Brett Taylor and the tension there and how Benioff didn't like where Taylor was spending his time.

SPEAKER_66: He thought he was spending a lot of time at Twitter, for example.

SPEAKER_30: Yes. Because that was during the acquisition or not acquisition moment in time. And he was, I believe, I don't have inside information here as far as that is for some people to believe. Um, just what I read in the news was he was, you know, running point on that if, uh, if that's correct. So there you go.

SPEAKER_69: Steps into the limelight. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_30: Yeah. Okay. So that's annoying. By the way, that's particularly annoying to Benioff for two reasons.

SPEAKER_74: Number one, uh, he tried to buy Twitter.

SPEAKER_05: So it's annoying. Interesting. That's something he liked, you know, it's like a toy. Uh, it's like, uh, uh, you know, like for you and I, it would be like a beautiful car or a house. We really coveted. Right. For a Benioff, uh, or other executives who have the ability to buy such things. It's like a nice, it's a jewel.

SPEAKER_75: It's a jewel property where they call those properties. Like showcase properties, you know, like if you're into homes, not everybody's into homes.

SPEAKER_76: Hero property or you're, yeah. I don't even know.

SPEAKER_75: It's like buying like a castle or the best house, you know, in, in London, the best, you know, town home in Manhattan, whatever it is. It's a trophy property. That's it.

SPEAKER_79: We're looking for a trophy. Trophy. It's a trophy property.

SPEAKER_75: So, you know, to have Brett then being involved with the trophy property when he wanted it, it's like when, um, the Disney executive bought like the, the Malibu home of another Disney executive and they fought over it. Like, uh, I think that was Ovitz had bought a property that, you know, his partner coveted and, you know, it just led to a lot of bad feelings. It's like rich people games. But anyway, there's that. And then number two, Benioff wants to experience the peak lifestyle of being the CEO and founder. And he wants a working class founder, co-CEO. Your job is not to go to Davos. If you're the co-CEO with Benioff, it's his job to go to Davos. It's not your job to take credit. It's not your job to be in the limelight. Co-CEO number two with a founder, your job is to keep your head down and do all the grunt

SPEAKER_00: work that the founder doesn't want. That's what happened here. Interesting. Based on my assessment.

SPEAKER_61: Yep.

SPEAKER_03: I think that's a, I think that is almost certainly accurate. So that happens. Lots of other executives have left in the past year, a time of turnover and transition for lots of people, but that's been happening. And the stock is down almost 50% year to date.

SPEAKER_55: And as it happens, Salesforce could be running into some headwinds, which both I first and

SPEAKER_25: David Sachs have identified as, as this like maturation in the SaaS industry. Right. I'm calling it SaaS duration. You did a great week, sir. Thank you.

SPEAKER_88: You said there was SaaS. What'd you call it? Like SaaS overload or? SaaS duration. SaaS duration. Yeah. I think that was good.

SPEAKER_05: You should, that should have, that was a, uh, term that should have, we should have workshopped that a little bit and we should have made that stick. That's my, that's on me. I should have given you a little more props for that one. SaaS duration. Oh, thanks man.

SPEAKER_10: SaaS duration. It's okay. It's not too late because it's just starting. Whenever we're trying to coin a term. Yeah. You just gotta give me the slight DM and say, Hey, just, I need a little air cover here, J Cal. Let's get this one to stick.

SPEAKER_05: Okay. Just like mine. You helped me with the, um, this is the, uh, what did I name this, uh, uh, bubble, uh, the speculative asset, speculative asset bubble, the SAB, it's the SAB, it's the SAB, you guys were really good about, Hey, let's just keep branding that. So when we come up with a good term, we gotta brand it, try to get it to catch on. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: Well, I think we're gonna get our chance for all of 2023 because SaaS duration is real.

Jason Calacanis: Um, and so, and then SaaS duration to people, please. So SaaS duration. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: So I wrote this long tweet thread about the idea that companies, which now has become, you know, we're all talking about this companies are gonna start

SPEAKER_55: cutting their SaaS subscriptions is the really basic part of it. Right? Like I did my personal consumer level audit of how much crap I subscribed to. And it was like, Whoa, a lot of this overlaps, this is too much. And, and I talked to a potential customer of a company I was interested in investing in, who said, you know, I guess the question for me is like, not, does it work? It's, do I need another $30,000 a year subscription? And I thought, oh crap, this is gonna be a problem for all of these companies. Hmm. And also we, VCs have flooded the zone with these companies. Sure.

SPEAKER_03: And so new ones coming into this kind of chop around SaaS are gonna, are gonna hit some, hit some problems.

SPEAKER_103: And so then I ended up by saying, everybody saturation, I said, yes, when you did unsubscribe on your personal side, were there any subscription services to seize ahead for another story that were particularly hard to unsubscribe from, which was the worst?

SPEAKER_104: Ooh, did you have any ones or they were all one click, easy breezing?

SPEAKER_03: It was no, I think, you know, this is really dumb. This is really, really dumb, but I subscribe to, or was subscribed to Cinemax because I really like this crappy English action show called strike back. It's amazing. Strike back is fricking awesome.

Jason Calacanis: And then I was like, I don't want to dump skin, a max, which I do. So call it that, even though I subscribed.

SPEAKER_108: Yes, that was literally for people that watching, I was like, right, the eyebrow went right up.

SPEAKER_109: Okay, Molly, say more about your skin, a max, I watch anything else on skin, a max, except

SPEAKER_03: for a strike back, but I almost didn't want to let it go. I wanted to hoard it just in case I felt like watching strike back. And then I was like, that is so stupid. Also strike back. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_66: It's awesome. Looks pretty good to me. Oh my God. It's so good. It's like spy shows. Oh, it's so good. I love it.

SPEAKER_112: God, I'm gonna have to read fricking sign up for skin and max. So that was hard. That was hard.

SPEAKER_115: Everything else though, like, I did not need that. Here is my best advice to founders.

SPEAKER_05: So this is just a little nugget. I'm gonna add here. This is a little founder trick. There are credit cards that you can get. And that's what I want you to do. I want you to write on your credit card, the 2022 card. Then I want you to get a 2023 card and a 2024 card, or you could do this in six month increments. So you just take a little Sharpie out.

SPEAKER_30: You write that on the card. Then you put all your subscriptions, anything that's a SaaS subscription.

SPEAKER_35: This is your subscription card for 22, 23, and 24. Now, you cancel that card, hard cancel it, close it down, shut it down. And these are three credit cards from three different companies so that there's no way of rolling over the charges.

SPEAKER_05: Smart. And then every December 1st, or let's call it November 15th, you turn the card off. And if you are, like, cast away, lost on an island, these SaaS companies will find you.

SPEAKER_75: They literally, this is how you can, if you can get rescued from an island. Because they'll literally find somebody who will show up at the island and be like, Hey, your, your sales force, your Slack is turned off. That's how dogged they are. Yeah. The joke didn't land, I guess.

SPEAKER_40: Anyway, there are also cards you can get. I got it. I'm trying not to interrupt. You're on a roll. Yes. There are cards you can get that let you program the card.

SPEAKER_75: I'm not going to give any shout outs to these particular ones, but startups use these cards all the time.

SPEAKER_00: And we use them internally because young employees, you know, they don't want to have to use their personal card. And we don't, they don't often use it anyway. So we can give them a card with a $50 a month limit. And, um, if it cancels or something like that, if it bounces, no big deal. They say to the operations person, can you put it at 200, I have to do this on it. Great. But then we can also turn it to zero, turn it off. So the, the programmability of cards is like that. Now the credit card companies are in cahoots with the subscription companies to screw you on getting rid of these subscriptions. So this is why you have to protect yourself. You just turn it off at the end of the year because they'll contact you and the person in the company who needs it will contact you. Say, Hey, I went into my, you know, whatever my, my box account, my, my, my iTunes, uh, storage account. Whatever SaaS subscription product you're using, uh, New York Times, Wall Street, Georgia, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_05: I need it. So that's how you prove need is by turning off the payment. Please do this. Everybody. I do it personally. I do it professionally at all the companies. The technique works. Hmm. Chef's kiss. Continue with the Salesforce story.

SPEAKER_122: It's excellent. It's excellent.

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SPEAKER_03: All right, so I was talking about SaaS duration and then Saks came along and specifically started tweeting about Salesforce in this exact context.

SPEAKER_55: Saw net new ARR decreased by two thirds in the most recent quarter. That's a huge slowdown. But it implies the need to cut over $2 billion of sales and marketing if it wants to maintain CAC payback at reasonable levels, i.e., you know, the customer cost, customer acquisition costs. And then he points out that over time, this could become a vicious cycle. Layoffs lead to seat contraction, lead to sales slowdown, lead to cost cutting, lead to layoffs and repeat.

SPEAKER_25: A.k.a. SaaS duration ends up in a death spiral, the death spiral or sass spiral.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sass spiral for all these companies. Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_03: So it is into it is in this context that Salesforce CEO Mark Benioff appears to all of a sudden having lost 21 executives who were probably managing lots of people, uh, is looking deeply at Salesforce employee productivity. Employees at Salesforce have doubled, um, since 2019 doubled as 73,000 employees up over 20% year over year on Friday, Benioff, let employees know over Slack that the newest tires weren't productive enough. According to CNBC, the message said, quote, new employees hired during the pandemic in 2021 and 2022 are especially facing much lower productivity. Is this a reflection of our office policy? Are we not building tribal knowledge with new employees without an office culture?

SPEAKER_55: Are our managers not directly addressing productivity with their teams? Are we not investing enough time into our new employees? Do managers focus enough time and energy on onboarding new employees and achieving productivity? Is coming in as a new employee to Salesforce too overwhelming? Asking for a friend. And he added a halo smiley at the end.

SPEAKER_138: Now, you were kind of wet-happing at it. Maybe I'm chuckling, eye rolling a little bit. I'm eye rolling a little bit. Okay.

SPEAKER_140: Cause I, you know, coming from where, where I'm coming from, I thought those are good questions.

SPEAKER_05: I like the fact that he's asking it open-ended in the Slack and being transparent and having an open discourse with the employees. So as a manager, and I think maybe in our dynamic Molly, which, which has made this show stronger and made us go up the rankings.

SPEAKER_35: Sometimes I represent the managerial class and sometimes you represent the worker class. Yeah. I'm like the populist. Yeah. I'm the populist in the building. I think.

SPEAKER_68: So here, let's, let's just embrace the dynamic. We'll play it out.

SPEAKER_05: Exactly. We'll play it out. I looked at it and I said, you know what? Before, before he does his riff, which he's going to do. Yeah. He's saying, Hey, here are my concerns as the manager. And the way he said it wasn't, I'm dictating to, you know, you cogs in the wheel. He's saying really thoughtful questions. Like, are we overwhelming them? Where's the tribal knowledge? Are the managers not doing enough? You know, what, what's, what's not working here? And he actually put a little bit of a, a, a, a, a joke into it, uh, to, you know, to create a little levity here. It's a serious topic, but he said, asking for a friend.

SPEAKER_00: I like it. I give that. And listen, I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, you know, I like Benioff, but I'm, I'm not a simp or anything. I barely know the guy. I've asked him to come on the show no less than 10 times. Yeah. And Benioff has never come on the show. One time Benioff came and spoke at our events and then didn't let me interview him. He picked, he had selected his interview it's the one time in the history of my events that I let somebody do it. And I regret it to this day, but I wanted to have Benioff at the show. I needed him at the show because he's a headliner. It was very popular at the time. Yeah. And I felt like his PR people were a little heavy handed with me, if I'm being honest. And they're like, you can have Benioff, but you know, we picked the interviewer and I'm like, it's my show. And I was really, I don't, I'm going to be honest about it right now. Cause I know this is going to get back to Benioff. I was a little insulted by it. Cause I really wanted to discuss Benioff's career with him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_75: And I felt a little bit like they twisted my arm.

SPEAKER_35: Um, so that's, that's the context of which I'm coming at this. I'm not like a Benioff apologist. I'm not a Benioff critic. Right. I like Benioff.

SPEAKER_05: I respect his career. Um, and I think it's a cool dude in many ways. Um, in terms of his philosophy of running companies, I give him an A plus on this because the easier thing to do is to just be like, y'all aren't working hard enough. Here's the riff or just here's the riff, whatever.

David Friedberg: But you were a little bit like, uh, so what's the uh about? I know it's true.

SPEAKER_25: And maybe I was excessively uh because it's okay. I mean, it's a tough, the part. Okay. Well, I will say that I'll just answer the question.

SPEAKER_03: And the part that I was uh about was, is one, yes, you're asking open-ended questions, but you're opening the conversation by saying that employees are not productive enough. Okay. Now, so, so you've already kind of implied, I don't think you're all working hard enough. Right. I don't know what the metric for determining that is like, you know, I think if you're gonna, if you're gonna basically say our new employees that we hired during the pandemic suck, then I would hope that one, there'd be some metric attached to that. Like, how did you determine that they're not productive, is it that you can't see the work that they're doing, like, what is the, what is the, the, the, the way that you are judging these new employees to be less productive and how have you determined this because it's a, that's a pretty broad statement that's already gonna set people back on their heels. If you're the populist class here, if you're the employee class, you're gonna see that and be like, why ask the questions, you might as well just fire me, right? You already said. And so then when you end that with asking for a friend, it's like, bro, just own it. Like, if what you want to know is why are you guys not working harder than one as a manager, own it. Like, I thought that that was a weird little passive aggressive way to end it. Okay, sure.

SPEAKER_30: Cause he does say here, new employees, uh, hired during pandemic, the pandemic in 2021 are especially facing much lower productivity. And then he gets in, like, is that a reflection or policy is trying to have that open-ended discussion, but you're right. He doesn't say how that metric is, you know, determined. Now we don't have, maybe they have some metric internal we're not aware of, right. You know, and there's like a review system, but. Maybe, but it's a big statement.

SPEAKER_03: And then don't make a little joke at it at the end. Like you just put everybody who was hired. Right. You just put everybody hired during the pandemic on notice that they're most likely going to get laid off. You've lost 21. And when you're losing 21 executives, that's you, right? Like lower level people, they quit because of their bosses. But when all of their bosses quit, the ones who report to Benioff or somebody above him, and you just lost that many people at that level. Yeah. Like, then I would expect those open-ended questions to also include, what can I be doing better? That's what every CEO should always be asking because they're the top of the pile.

SPEAKER_30: Right. And he says that. He says, is this a reflection of our office policy? Are we not building tribal knowledge? Are our managers not directly addressing productivity with their teams? So he does point at management too. But I think.

SPEAKER_03: You should say, what could I be doing? Right? Like, if you're the CEO, I would have included that. I would have included that.

SPEAKER_59: Yeah. As CEO, that would have been a better ending than asking for a friend.

SPEAKER_25: Asking for a friend, I think, is really condescending. I actually found that really off-putting.

SPEAKER_30: Yeah. Yeah. I took it as a joke. But again, I'm representing the managerial founder.

SPEAKER_05: I'm representing the founder class. So I took it as a joke. But I think you representing the worker class in this dynamic make a good point. Because it's their jobs. It's serious business.

SPEAKER_00: This is how they feed their families. Not everybody's, you know, the rich founder who's in control. You're not in control as a worker except to quit. Right?

SPEAKER_75: You don't have as much control as the CEO. The CEO should have ended this. If I was going to edit this for Mr. Benioff, I would have said, Mr. Benioff, how about ending instead of with asking for a friend?

SPEAKER_00: Most of all, this rests on my shoulders. Are there things that I could be doing better? Yeah. Here's the anonymous tip line where you can give guaranteed anonymous feedback. Yeah.

SPEAKER_180: Boom. Use a burner account from this burner email system to email this account.

SPEAKER_167: And you literally give them a link to one of those burner emails. Yeah. There's like burner emails you can use like for two-factor authentication. Like it's like a 10-minute email account.

SPEAKER_05: When you don't want to give your email before Apple had the protection. I would literally link to that. That's like a power move. Here's my email address. And here's how to send a burner email to me. Let it rip. You know, tell markthetruthatsalesforce.com. Like what a powerful way to do it. And they'd be like, you know what? You're not in the office. You're in Hawaii. You know? Right. Who are you to tell us? Like you might get some really candid feedback, right? You might. You might.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah. There's something bigger going on here. But also exactly. That is the other reason I was chuckling is that there, you know, it's like it's less about this specific message, which did get my hackles up from, you know, the populist perspective. But also, there is clearly like this is a CEO facing business headwinds that arguably Salesforce specifically has never faced. And so something is going on, so then to send a message that's like, y'all are not pulling your weight.

SPEAKER_25: It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You seem to be driving executives out of the building at an alarming rate.

SPEAKER_189: So like, what's the deal?

SPEAKER_190: Well, we can contrast here, worker slash management class.

SPEAKER_05: Now, in our dynamic, it's, you know, our peers here on the show, but I also did a version of this where I said, listen, everybody, here's reality. 2023 is going to suck. I need everybody, including myself, to work harder and be more productive so we can get through this without layoffs. And layoffs are a possibility always, of course. It goes without saying. So I said, okay, I'm going to ask people for that, but I'm also going to make the commitment.

SPEAKER_00: Here are my new hours. And I told my assistant and I told Mike Savino, our president, 8.30 a.m. to 8.30 p.m. And if there's any weekend meetings that I don't catch up on, just put them on Sunday mornings because my kids are out on Sunday mornings.

SPEAKER_37: And I, you know, you got to walk the walk if you're going to talk the talk. And so I just said, and I said it to both companies, you know, cards on the table.

SPEAKER_00: We have two, I have inside.com. I got the launch company. I've got this weekend service. All of it's advertising base. And we know advertising is going to get crushed next year. I built the companies with plenty of room for profitability and plenty of runway, but I'm not in control of this. So therefore, let's all work harder. And I think, I don't know, you can give me a letter grade here live on the air. But what I got back from the team, you individually and others, was how can I help? What can we do? Let's have that esprit de corps. Let's all do this together. I got that from my inside team. I got it from my launch team universally. And I think you just have to start with looking in the mirror. And I looked at the mirror. Okay, what did I do right? I kept the company small. I kept the company profitable. I kept the cash reserves up. That's why I'm not in a full-blown panic right now. But I looked at individuals' productivity. I said, you know what? I gave this, you know, everybody the start of day, end of day, just, you know, self-report as a remote company. But I never did time boxing. I never, or blocking, whatever people call it. I never gave people any training on being ruthless about their time. And when people did share their calendars for me, I looked at it and I was like, holy shit. Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_05: Holy cow.

SPEAKER_199: Yeah. I didn't give the right priorities to some people. That's what I found.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah. I was like, I have people doing grunt work who are getting paid three times the salary of the people who should be doing this grunt task work. Let's call it task work. I don't want to be a saltier. But there are task work. It's okay. We're all adults here. There's some things that are tasks that need to get done. And that should be, you know, let's call it, you know, whatever, an entry-level employee, not a senior-level employee. And I looked at senior-level employees. I was like, wait a second. Task, task, task work. Get that the heck off your plate. These are the things that are going to drive revenue. Totally. That's on me. I didn't set the priorities enough. But things were going up and to the right. I don't want to be micromanaging people. I want to be on those slopes behind me. I don't want to review everybody's calendar. But you know what?

SPEAKER_35: Here we are. I need every hour of every soldiers, of every general, of every captain. I need every hour. Perfect.

SPEAKER_05: No wasted time. That goes for me, too. What am I spending my time on? Right? And am I spending my time in the right place? So I just looked at everybody, you, other managing directors, associates, researchers, at inside, salespeople, writers. And I just said, whoa, let's work together to be 20% more efficient. All of us can be 20% more efficient. Doesn't mean adding two hours to the day. If you're working 10 hours, it doesn't mean work 12. Keep the 10. Make them 20% more efficient. Also appreciate the extra half hour if you got it.

SPEAKER_167: So anyway, I like to think I did, I don't know, rate me. One to 10. How did I do? I mean, it's uncomfortable for you to rate me. Where am I? No eights. Well, I'm going to give you a seven and a half or eight and a half.

SPEAKER_25: By the way, I have spread no eights throughout the entire family and everyone is obsessed with this concept now. Yes. Thank you. It started with my son. Now he's telling everybody, everyone's like, what? And everyone's trying to figure out how to cheat. The cowards.

SPEAKER_03: Then he told me that my seven and a half was a cheat. It's a, it's, it's sweeping the nation. I was like, no, it wasn't. No eight. I'm going to give you a nine and a half. And I'm going to say the only, the half is only for the moments in which, and this is what I felt with the Benioff thing too. For the moments in which already productive employees felt that they were being told that they were unproductive. Got it. Because maybe they were, maybe they were spending too much time on the wrong thing. But ultimately that was a leadership question. Right? So I think anytime, I mean, people who went home to work, like everybody's like, oh, if you're remote, added hours to their days. Everybody added hours to their days because the commutes went away. And so people work longer hours. Yep. Lots of people felt like, oh crap, I'm doing this. Like my electricity bill went up. I, you know, had to buy a bunch of stuff for my house. I don't. And then on top of that, like a lot of management didn't change. They did not change. Right? Like the way that people were managed didn't change. Yes. So then you, so then to receive a message that's like, you're not being productive enough. That's a bummer. Demotivating. Let's say.

SPEAKER_08: You know, I've been on a health kick over the past year. And part of that health kick is the greatest fitness app in the world, FitBod. And if you're listening to me right now, you probably care about optimization, right?

SPEAKER_123: Saving time, doing things perfectly and data-driven solutions. You know what? Fitness hasn't had these things until FitBod. FitBod is a data-driven workout app. It blends machine learning with exercise science. They create a custom dynamic program for you based on your fitness goals, based on your experience. And think about this, your available equipment, right? Maybe you're in a hotel. Maybe you're at an Airbnb. Maybe you're at a blue ground and you need to use the equipment you have. They're going to maximize your fitness gains by varying the intensity and the volume between sessions as well. And they make these beautiful visualizations of your body and how utilized your muscles are. So let's check out this demo. Let's say I want to get a 30-minute workout in and I want to work on my chest, triceps, and my abs, but I'm staying at some, you know, rental and there's no equipment. Well, they'll create a perfectly optimized workout based on those parameters. Let's say I'm in another, you know, hotel and they got a bunch of kettlebells. Well, you go to another location and you got those pulley machines. They're going to make a perfect workout for you. It's amazing. It is one of the most beautiful apps ever made. They get featured by Apple all the time. FitBod takes the guesswork out of fitness. Just open the app and start making progress. Get 25% off your FitBod subscription or try out the app for free when you sign up now at FitBod.me slash twist. That's F-I-T-B-O-D dot M-E slash twist for 25% off.

SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's a problem with management is, you know, you're trying to communicate to the entire team. Now think about doing it with thousands of employees. You're trying to craft a message, in his case, to tens of thousands of employees. Yeah. But there are 10,000 who are in bucket A, 10,000 in bucket B, and 10,000 in bucket C. And how does one, as a manager, I don't have the answer to this, craft a message to high

SPEAKER_59: performers, low performers, and average performers? Right. It's kind of hard.

SPEAKER_215: Well, you use your managers.

SPEAKER_03: If you have 73,000 employees, you don't do that, you know? But then people are like, I want to hear from the CEO. Then as a CEO, you say, I want you to know I have instructed every senior manager at the company. We're going to be doing this time review. We all have to go through this together. You know, we're going to be looking at strategies and training. And making sure that our institutional knowledge is spread and we can do this and whatever. And you're, because at that, when you're managing, we got 73,000 employees.

SPEAKER_68: You're the chief cheerleader. Got it.

SPEAKER_05: Okay. So the punch up just to, because I love to talk about exact language. One of the gifts I have is language. It's one of the few. And I always try to actually workshop with founders. It's one of the things I do on boards of company. I literally, somebody said, I'm having a problem with X, Y, and Z. Like, I said, well, how are you going to say that to that person? He's like, that's why I'm calling you, J Cal. And I said, here's how I would say it. And then I said, and I said, hold on, let me say it one more time. And he's, he's a little bit founder says to me, this is like a very significant company. Can I record this? I was like, by all means. And I just workshop back and forth. And I literally role play with him. And I said, I really appreciate the feedback. Um, I think it's incredibly thoughtful.

SPEAKER_00: Here's what I'm seeing on the ground inside the company. Here's how your feedback relates to that. And I think a possible way forward based on what I'm seeing with ground truth and what

SPEAKER_05: you know from your wisdom from being in the industry for 30 years, um, would the best solution going forward be for me to give you weekly reports on this data? And then for us to debrief weekly, monthly, quarterly, what do you think would work best?

SPEAKER_75: And it was like, he was like, oh my God, how come I don't know how to say that? And I was like, whatever, I just don't do it. So here's what Benioff could have added.

SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I'm speaking in general terms here about the overall productivity of the company. Um, I would like managers to take responsibility for the productivity of their teams. And obviously you should talk to your manager because there are some people here who are wildly productive and this doesn't apply to, and then there are people who are struggling and

SPEAKER_143: they might be struggling because of their own personal effort, professional development,

SPEAKER_75: their manager not doing a great job, or in all likelihood, some combination of those

SPEAKER_05: three things. So just workshopping it, that's the unlock. He's not blaming people. Yeah. It's just setting reality.

SPEAKER_190: And remember I told you, Warren Bennis told me on this very program, we have to pull the episode number.

SPEAKER_05: Warren Bennis is a management consultant who I was very taken by when I used to do interviews live. Somebody had just tipped me off that he lived in LA.

SPEAKER_199: And he's passed away right now, but he was really great. And he said to me, something that stuck with me forever. One of the best piece of advice. He said, Jason, what leaders do is they define reality. He got this from being in the war.

SPEAKER_228: He said, you got to define reality first. Whoa, once you define reality, then everybody can accept the reality and then

SPEAKER_05: work forward to solve whatever challenges you might have. Now that could be, you're on a foxhole and you're surrounded and the 10 people in your platoon are not making it out, but maybe two could make it out. Maybe three could make it out and tell the story. I mean, this is heavy stuff, right? But the reality is we're surrounded. We're out of ammunition. We're either going to have to surrender and be tortured, or we're going to fight our way, blast our way out. And two or three of us might make it, or none of us are going to make it. Okay. Now we all accept that reality. Let's fight our way out. Right. Han Solo, never tell me the odds. I want to ask you about one thing embedded in here, and this is a serious, important conversation that Silicon Valley has to have.

SPEAKER_35: Are we not, for people who are first-time employees, not just like, it's their fifth job, but first job out of college, let's say, should they be working at home or should they be in an office with deliberate professional development management mentorship? Because he's saying, like, it's really hard to, like, become a Salesforce employee here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: Now we had a lot, it's very emotional remote work because people feel like, I finally have the freedom and flexibility I want. You feel that way. I feel that way. But management's like, wait a second.

SPEAKER_237: So is that valid? Molly representing the worker class.

David Friedberg: Um, go ahead, union leader. Here we go. She's like, why are you paying me at the union leader?

SPEAKER_141: We just should embrace it. People are on Twitter. Molly's too far left. J-Cow's capitalist menace to society. Molly's a woke left. F*** it. We're going to embrace it. Let's go.

SPEAKER_241: We're just leaning in. I don't have any nuance.

Jason Calacanis: I never had any nuance. I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_244: God forbid there'd be any nuance. Molly and J-Cow have to be the opposite side. Sax and J-Cow can have no overlapping opinions.

David Friedberg: To the death. Go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_126: I do 100% think that, like, I think that it is great for, I mean, and, and, oh, here it is.

SPEAKER_03: And I don't know that every company is going to be able to create that opportunity, right? Like some companies have gone remote first. I think that what we're going to find is some, like, look, if you're, there's no question that remote work, I think, reduces your sense of connection to the place that you work in. I think it reduces your kind of overall connection. Esprit de corps. And esprit de corps. Absolutely. Like, you just don't feel the same trust and loyalty at a company. I mean, I felt deeply connected to and committed to and loyal to Marketplace to a point because I had never worked in that office. There were people, like, when I left Marketplace, I was, like, sad to leave, of course. And there were, like, three people I was sorry not to work with, but a lot of people worked there who I had never met because I had never been in an office in L.A.

SPEAKER_249: Switching costs was low for you.

SPEAKER_59: It was. You did say to me, I want to honor my contract.

SPEAKER_05: I want to do the right thing for time. And I respected that. And I said, okay, whatever time, I mean, I want Molly Wood as my co-host. The timeline is the timeline. I'm not going anywhere. If it takes me a year or two to get you as the co-host on this show, I'll wait. I'm not in a rush. I want the best. You're the best guitar player. You know, I'm a lead guitarist. And you can play rhythm perfectly with me. And then you can also play a little lead. That's great. Yeah. I got no ego about it. If I can get you in six months or 18, and it took, I think, 24 or 18, I was like, I'll wait. I looked. I'll be honest with you. While I was waiting for you, I was still looking. Of course you were. As I should. That's my due diligence. And you know what I found? Nobody compared to you.

SPEAKER_254: There it is.

SPEAKER_05: Thanks, man. You can play the song right now.

SPEAKER_254: She's like, heart, I agree. I agree. And here's the dynamic.

SPEAKER_50: You know, people like it.

SPEAKER_03: But I have been in the work world for a really long time. Right. I have been in the work world for a really long time, right? If this were my first job ever, if I were like 20, 22, I come into this place. I've never met the people that I work with ever. I'm alone in my apartment. Like for some young people, remote work is horrible because they're lonely and miserable and they don't have a good place to work and they can't afford the internet connection and their companies aren't helping them. And I think what we're likely to see, I just resist the idea of a mandate for every company and every single young person. But like, yeah, fundamentally, if you're not, if you're going to have a remote first workplace, then you have to figure out, especially with those young people, how to get them together a lot.

SPEAKER_167: They need to bond. I mean, I've seen producer Rachel's apartment on this camera. It's not pleasant. I know. Poor thing. It's a rough place to work out of every day. She lives in a tiny little apartment. There's always like police cars going by. Yes, exactly. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_30: I mean, listen, trust me. I used to hang on the L. Well, I'm not going to, I don't want to dox her, but I used to hang in Manhattan. Yeah. Let me give the official answer here. It's loud. You, you nailed it management and the worker class as represented by J Cal and Molly.

SPEAKER_05: Whoa, no, no, it's ever. Oh, no. Young workers. First time workers should be in the office. And whether it's five days a week or three, we can split hairs and they want to be, I'll be totally honest. I don't think they want to be at home. It's not good for their psychology.

SPEAKER_02: Even I want to drive some absurd amount of time and space to an office once a week. Like, you feel better about the people you work with.

SPEAKER_40: Correct. You build more fabric. Now, I'm making an announcement here.

SPEAKER_74: I think I'm, if we're on a hiring freeze right now, but I think for new positions for my

SPEAKER_05: venture firm, not speaking for inside here, I'm going to make all new positions in the office. I'm thinking about it. I'm not going to make people who are not in the office, but if I hire, let's say, let's say things go particularly well, raising launch fund for meetings have been going. You know, we got all the credit slots. We had $45 million in demand early, and now I'm going to meet with the big LPs. I did two meetings, went incredible. I think I'm feeling pretty good about it. If I have to hire a couple more associates, I think it's going to be associates. You got to be in the office. And J-Cal is going to show up a couple of days a week and sit with you. And if that's appealing to you, then move your ass to San Francisco or wherever I put

SPEAKER_199: the office or keep the existing San Francisco office or whatever, I just, I've been thinking

SPEAKER_05: about it. I'm not going to drag you and the other people in, you guys at your leisure. If you want to come in, I'll be there these hours. We could, we could, we could wrap out. We could have like the investment team meetings, let's say in person, maybe who knows. So great. Um, so that's what I believe is going to happen as we go into the recession because there's another dynamic here, booming market.

SPEAKER_272: Remember the booming market?

SPEAKER_274: It was so, it was such a short time ago too. It was like five minutes ago. It feels like it's 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_276: It was possible and all the companies were going to be unicorns in the summer, like a

SPEAKER_279: year ago. We were literally last year when I was sitting here with the slopes behind me and I just started skiing up my brand new ski house and the world was my oyster and I wasn't living in complete chaos 12 months ago.

SPEAKER_55: And literally 12 months ago, you were like, I'm skiing. Every afternoon, I'm going to like, I'm going to enjoy my, now you're like eight 30 to eight

SPEAKER_283: 30 and on Sundays, twice on Sundays, I was talking with my spouse.

SPEAKER_00: She's like, how you doing buddy? And I'm like, not good. This is really depressing for me. I don't, you know, me, I'm not, I don't get depressed, but I was having like a little pity party over the weekend. I was like, oh my Lord, all my companies going out of business, all these companies making cuts, me having to look at companies and say, what's the plan if I have to make cuts? This is, you know, it's, it's heavy.

SPEAKER_286: And I, you know, I take it very personal, very emotional person. Uh, I have a lot of empathy.

SPEAKER_00: And so like when founders call me and they're, you know, upset or they're down, it's just like, I am like, um, Lieutenant who was on star Trek, the next generation, the empath. Yeah.

SPEAKER_37: Uh, Troy, Troy, I'm like her, I like literally their sadness goes inside of me and I feel it. And so I was just having like that little like moment of like, oh God, I feel so bad

SPEAKER_00: for my founders who are laying people off and who are, and they're scared. And, you know, I just, it all, just all that emotion goes inside of me, a booming market.

SPEAKER_05: The power tilts to the employees, right? And it's been like that for 10 years. We've had this discussion. Yeah. Then COVID happens. Well, you know what? Employees gained even more power.

SPEAKER_74: And then, and this is all a two year period of time. I know. Then a recession, employees lose all power. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05: All power, you, unless you are top five or 10%, it's over hours now swung the other way. Let's just call it what it is. So now, you know, all these white collar, this is the white collar recession. It's not a blue collar recession. Blue collar, uh, workers are getting paid more and more and the jobs are not filled. They, everybody needs more waiters. Everybody needs more housekeepers. Everybody needs more, you know, plumbers, uh, which is a kind of, um, electricians. Oh my God, electricians. Those jobs, they can't fill, they, they, they, these are jobs that pay six figures for manual labor and they can't fix them. They can't fill them. Plumbers, look up average plumber salaries. In some cases, like cities, it's a hundred, 200K. I mean, it's a job. Anyway, putting that aside, thank you. Thank you, everybody. That one landed. Now the recession has tilted. Any young person in the workforce is going to be going to an office. I hate to tell you. That's it. Yeah. And you, you know what? It's going to be good for you. Go to the office. I did it my whole career. You're going to learn a lot. It's going to suck to commute, but just lean into it and embrace it. And then the new standard I believe will be like the old standard, which is be a high

SPEAKER_228: performer, earn the right to make your own hours, earn the right to work from home. That's where the pendulum will land.

SPEAKER_300: I could, you know what? That makes perfect sense too, because the people who, I mean, what you're describing

SPEAKER_03: is a one is potentially a wonderful work life where when you're young and you're meeting your spouse and you want to be social and you need to connect with a workplace in order to learn and get the chance to impress the boss, like, and you've got all the energy and you can commute and, or you're living right there in the city. Like that is exactly when you can and should be in the office and it will enrich you and benefit you and be incredible. And then when you have kids and you need a little more flexibility, cause you might have a doctor's appointment or you did, but you also want the option to like, get the hell away from your children and your dogs and go to the office two days a week. And you've earned that trust. Like that honestly is kind of the perfect. And we had it unofficially. Yes.

SPEAKER_68: It was a wink. We've had it for decades.

SPEAKER_05: It was like, wait a second that, you know, CEO, that senior VP, they can't have that many

SPEAKER_302: vacation days and it's like, well, they hardly come into the office.

SPEAKER_08: And it's like, yeah, where they're like leaving early long ledgers. Like, well, did you see their book of business as the top salesperson?

SPEAKER_05: Did you see the creativity and how the product is designed for that product manager? It's like, you know what? And that coder is four times more, you know, it's one of those 10 X coders. Okay. It's a 10 X coder. And they want to live, they want to spend more time in, you know, Costa Rica, like you're not firing them because you know, at three in the morning, you get the code commit that solved all the problems that nobody else in the company could. Right. Freedom, performance, uh, freedom comes from performance. Power law. That's where this ends. Now let's go back to Salesforce. And then we wrap on Salesforce.

SPEAKER_180: If you built the largest building, Molly in San Francisco, that you can see from Marin to SFO. Oh, there she is. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: So this is, I mean, this is like the Pharaoh building the greatest pyramid.

SPEAKER_309: That is a model to your greatness, to your greatness.

SPEAKER_00: Mark Benioff with the top floor floors being the Ohana. Am I pronouncing that correctly? Oh, Ohana something space. Yeah. I've been there. You've been to the Ohana space at Salesforce.

SPEAKER_312: I think I went to one party there when it first opened. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: It is like nothing you've seen in your life. It's two floors of event space with stairs between them, vaulted ceilings that look out on the back. And this, there is no Google Salesforce tower. There is no, well, there is the Apple campus. This is what Pharaohs do. This is what Kings do. Kings build castles. The Pharaohs built the pyramids, the elite executives build a temple, an object in the world for their disciples to come. Now look at the Apple campus. Look at that beautiful ring. We'll pull that up next. Then look at Facebook's Geary designed a building in East Palo Alto with the walking roof. Totally the green roof that's like the Pharaoh or queen. Imagine Molly being queen and you built that. Yeah. Look at that beautiful. Now imagine you're Cleopatra and you build that. Imagine you're the great Pharaoh and you built that the Taj Mahal and nobody goes there.

SPEAKER_323: Nobody goes there.

SPEAKER_00: And it's crickets. What does that do to the psyche? Yeah. Of that person. God.

SPEAKER_325: People are humans. It's so true.

SPEAKER_00: They are humans. Look at the Geary building that Zuckerberg built. I'll tell you what happens on the inside. When you get rich and powerful like this, you have tens of billions, hundreds of billions of dollars laying around. And you're like, what can I do with these stacks of money? I can buy my shares back. Okay, whatever. It's not particularly joyful to buy some shares back. Who cares? Like some numbers on a spreadsheet change.

SPEAKER_333: But when you meet with Frank Geary or you meet with whoever the architect was and they say, here's a possibility, and then here's another possibility. And then they got the secret possibility, the third option.

SPEAKER_05: They don't tell you, this is how the architects make the money. They give you the two options. And you're like, whoa, the Pharaoh sits there. And then the architects have this.

SPEAKER_180: But this, you know, you said 2 billion and this is five, but this is, you know, if like, you

SPEAKER_336: know, this is what the real Pharaoh would do.

SPEAKER_123: This is like, we start with like something insane. And then, of course, we get pragmatic and we get the first one more time, tell me more.

SPEAKER_05: And then all of a sudden, you know, whether it's in Qatar, where they built all these incredible stadiums for the World Cup, whether it's, you know, Benny off at this tower, or Steve Jobs with, you know, he didn't, I don't know that he lived to see it, you know, the

SPEAKER_00: campus, uh, or Zuckerberg, whoever it is, it's their Taj Mahal.

SPEAKER_228: It's psychologically, even if they admit it or not, psychologically, it grinds you that you built the temple and the temple is empty. And they want people to come to the temple and they want them to learn the religion. And this is at the core of this debate. And you know what? All the young disciples, you're going to come to the church. You're going to go to church.

SPEAKER_05: You're coming to the temple or you're not going to work for the next two or three years until the cycle starts to do phase three or four of the cycle will release again to you getting to pick what you want. But for now, you're lucky. I've been talking to some people out there about jobs. Um, and they're like, I got six months. And then some of the people who got laid off three months ago, they're like, I got

SPEAKER_167: three months and they're out there looking for jobs. Not looking good for white collar.

SPEAKER_343: No, it's grim.

SPEAKER_101: It's going to be total stories. Yes.

SPEAKER_04: Well, cause I know all those people in media. Yeah. Oh, I mean, the media are screwed.

Jason Calacanis: The media people are screwed. It's just a slaughter. Everybody's like, I hope I can monetize my sub stack. Like it's a, it's tough. I'm going to love with that. Yeah. It's, it's, it's going to be brutal for a while.

SPEAKER_347: Mollywood.substack.com.

SPEAKER_237: Ha ha. Oh, and here is the Geary, the greatest architect, one of the greatest architects of our time. I am pay, I guess is the other one. Yep.

SPEAKER_05: But like, I mean, imagine you build something like this, you know, when people are walking around the rooftop, look at that rooftop. I mean, it's literally like take the 10 greatest hotels in the world and whatever they accomplished

SPEAKER_40: and then 10 X that, and that's where you go to work and now nobody's there and it's empty.

SPEAKER_05: You know, and you, you're spending literally a thousand dollars a day maintaining the plants on the roof. I guarantee you it costs hundreds of millions of dollars to maintain that building.

SPEAKER_190: Oh, I'm sure. I'm not counting. I'm talking about maintenance of plants and cleaning furniture.

SPEAKER_228: Nobody shows up. Yep.

SPEAKER_03: And it's so interesting because that is why, like when, one of the things that Benioff was really upset about was that this leaked, that this memo was leaked and he was like, what? And the thing is that all of that, all of that is the stuff that starts to happen more and more and more. Like you never used to hear a peep out of Apple. You never would. Facebook employees did not leak. They loved it there, loved working there. And again, when you all leave, you're not part of the cult. You don't go and get indoctrinated. You don't go and take that stroll on that beautiful rooftop.

SPEAKER_55: You, you, you lose the connection a little bit. You start to disconnect. You feel less loyal. You're like, I don't like the way they're treating me.

SPEAKER_03: Like it's a, I think that I surprisingly agree with you to, it's not even that surprising. I mean, I 100% agree with you that people feel better when they go to offices. And also there are going to be some companies who can like, and also work has changed forever. So some companies will continue to use it as a differentiator to say, you can always be remote and people, there'll be choices.

SPEAKER_55: And that management will have to, over time, adjust and adapt to how to manage a remote workforce. And that conversation needs to be happening in equal and opposite and equal impact.

SPEAKER_365: You know what?

SPEAKER_02: The underlying tension here is the commute.

SPEAKER_08: The reason why CEOs are oblivious to this is because they pick where the office is and they can afford to live near it. So if you're Benioff and you live, I don't want to dox him, but I think it's public knowledge. You know, he lives somewhere in San Francisco and his driver can get him to the office in 15 minutes. Right.

SPEAKER_05: He's like, what's the issue? But now if you're coming from the East Bay, you got to get on BART and you got to be accosted by some mentally ill person who's on fentanyl, you're like, here's the issue. I got to get on BART and it smells like urine. And, you know, I got to stand for 45 minutes and it breaks down every other day.

SPEAKER_74: Like, there is a direct correlation between depression, domestic violence, suicide, anxiety, and commute length.

SPEAKER_05: And it turns out the ideal commute length, uh, is like 20, 30 minutes. After that, it becomes oppressive.

SPEAKER_244: Mm-hmm our office, you know, I can get to even, I live far away from it, but I can get

SPEAKER_05: to it in, you know, similar amount of time. I don't feel depression about it. But now if you had to go 90 minutes, I'd be like, well, F this. Yeah. So you could solve the whole problem. If people can e-bike to work, that's all.

SPEAKER_08: They just got to be able to get to work on an e-bike or a car in 15 to 30 minutes, 40 max. This would not be an issue if housing was probably, and what should happen next is these kingdoms

SPEAKER_05: these temples that are built should come with the requirement that you build housing next to it. And all of these NIMBY people need to stop their nonsense. And when Apple builds that big round circular campus, they should be allowed to build two towers next to it of employee housing that they control.

SPEAKER_00: That is theirs. And if they want to have 5,000 people come to a location, they should be required to have 10% of that in employee towers near it. That's at a discount or, or just whatever at cost. And now that may seem creepy to people, but for a young person, when they go to college, college provides housing. Why, why, why wouldn't Google and Facebook and Apple and Salesforce be able to say, Hey, we're building this giant building. We want to build a dormitory next to it, AKA an apartment building.

SPEAKER_143: And if young people want it, their studio is one bedroom, it's not for families. It's we're not replacing housing. We're just, we're taking a little pressure cooker off, you know, like the little, uh, when you do the hot pot, the little steam comes out the top. You have the little pressure cooker. So it don't blow up. Yeah, that would be amazing. Then you got 500 or 5,000 people going to the campus.

SPEAKER_05: The young folks are like, oh, I can walk. Right. I can e-bike and I'm at work.

SPEAKER_376: They'll do it very much like it.

SPEAKER_02: You might add some other housing in the community. Like, why not? No, but like young people will, right?

SPEAKER_55: Young people who do all this common sense, huge amount of task work that takes hours and hours and hours, as opposed to like brain work, right? The intellectual work that executives do that can occur while they're doing the dishes. Like there's just different kinds of work. There are different kinds of modalities. The sooner we realize that the more we can optimize for the right employee at the right time.

SPEAKER_333: There is, I, I heard some thing go by my feed that like, uh, chat GPT is making 200 million a year.

SPEAKER_382: Apparently. How? I don't know.

SPEAKER_35: People.

SPEAKER_07: So, yeah. I don't know how it's free for consumers. Are people licensing it? Or is that all from Microsoft? Can you explain this to us?

SPEAKER_03: So what's super hilarious is we were like, wait a second. So this headline goes by that says that open AI, which, uh, is the startup, of course, that makes chat GPT is projecting $200 million in revenue next year and a billion dollars in revenue by 2024. And then I immediately told producers was like, you gotta like, show us how in the heck that's gonna happen because open AI right now is a research organization. It wasn't nonprofit. They flipped to be a nonprofit. Uh, it crossed a million. So then they released chat GPT and it went insane. Everybody knows about this, like at every level of society.

SPEAKER_55: It's so freaking fascinating. It crossed a million users just five days after it launched. CEO, Sam Altman was asked if it would always be free and he said, we will have to monetize it somehow. At some point, the compute costs are eye watering.

SPEAKER_03: And even though it had basically no plan to make money, it was valued at $20 billion. So according to the open AI website, we did do a little digging.

SPEAKER_04: It charges developers that license its technology via API costs about a penny to generate 20,000 words of text and about two cents to create an image from a written prompt.

SPEAKER_55: Um, Reuters reported that in this pitch to investors, they're predicting this $200 million in revenue, um, and then aiming for a billion in 20, 24.

SPEAKER_30: And that's where, to be honest, we don't know how they, so it's API fees, just like, uh, Amazon charges for compute power or Twilio charges for email and SMS sends makes total sense.

SPEAKER_08: It'll be a money printing machine. There will be competitors. So, as we said, Google needs to get their button gear and Google and Sundar, Sundar should be staring at the ceiling. He should, his teeth should have all the enamel ground down on them because last week we played a game, Molly called a Google search chat GPT.

SPEAKER_74: Remember that mm-hmm and good times chat GPT worked everybody.

SPEAKER_05: This is storming the interwebs. Everybody's saying Google search or chat GPT. Everybody wants to know if it was a fluke. So I asked the producers, can we do one more round of Google search or chat GPT? Cause I just want to know if it's true or not because chat GPT one round one. So here we go round two, Sundar, I wish you the best, but you got your ass handed to you in round one. And now it's Sam Altman versus Sundar in round two of Google search and chat GPT. Take it away, Vanna White.

SPEAKER_401: Question number one, who are the Olsen sisters? Okay. Answer.

SPEAKER_405: I know the answer to this. Okay. Here we go.

SPEAKER_75: Now, wait, you don't know the, you don't know. No, I have no idea. And so people know how we did this. We took the first or second result on Google.

SPEAKER_00: We copied and paste the text. And then we compared it to the text given to us by chat GPT. So it's normalized. Molly has no idea. I have no idea. Nope. Because when you're doing a Google search, it's reasonable to say, you're going to click on a link. That's the idea. Or maybe we took the one box, but my producers here, our producers made it. So we don't know.

SPEAKER_04: So here's the answer that we got from either chat GPT or Google. Well, Mary Kate Olsen and Ashley Fuller Olsen, born June 13th, 1986, also known as the Olsen Twins as a duo, are American fashion designers and former actresses. The twins made their acting debut as infants playing Michelle Tanner on the television series Full House in San Francisco. At the age of six, Mary Kate and Ashley began starring together in other TV shows, film, and video projects, which continued to their teenage years. Through their company, Dual Star, the Olsen's joined to the ranks of the wealthiest women in the entertainment industry at a young age.

SPEAKER_74: Okay. Hold on. Now, this is either a chat GPT response or it is one of the first links on a Google search that's been cut and paste. And we took a while. So we're just reading a straight text document here. Now, if I were to read this, this feels awfully like a Wikipedia response. That's what it feels like to me. Yeah. Because I've been using Wikipedia since it came out.

SPEAKER_05: This feels Wikipedia-ish in terms of how they like to write stuff. But now we also know chat GPT was trained on Wikipedia. Everything.

SPEAKER_00: Google search has had the benefit of putting the Wikipedia snapshots in Google for free because it's common use.

SPEAKER_421: Right.

SPEAKER_00: It's got creative commons. And you don't, as long as you source it correctly. I'm going, this is a Wikipedia result. And I think it's a Google search result. What do you think, Molly?

SPEAKER_02: I thought the same thing. I think this has Wikipedia written all over it. So it's a Google search result? I think it's a Google search result.

SPEAKER_425: Okay. So it's a Google search result.

SPEAKER_02: Okay, great.

SPEAKER_05: Ding, ding, ding. We got one. Okay, so we're one for one.

SPEAKER_00: Now, the question is, I guess, if we put this up against another way to play this game is not us guessing it, is to put the two there and say which one's better. So for round three of ChatGPT versus Google, I want to put them side by side and pick which is better. That'll be round three. Nice.

SPEAKER_189: There is a toggle below so we can look, but we'll see all the other answers, though.

SPEAKER_429: Okay. So let's go through it and then we'll do that. Okay.

SPEAKER_189: Molly, we both got it right.

SPEAKER_02: Nailed it. Okay, we're learning. We're learning. The humans are learning alongside the AI. Okay, here we go. Question number two. How can I start a podcast? Great prompt. Great prompt. In our wheelhouse. Yep.

SPEAKER_25: All right. Answer. Maybe we should put this answer up because it's a lot of bullet points, but choose a topic.

SPEAKER_03: The first step in starting a podcast is to choose a topic that you are passionate about and that you think will be of interest to your audience. Determine your format.

SPEAKER_04: Will it be an interview, solo, or co-hosted show? Choose a name and artwork. Give your podcast a catchy name and create some artwork to go with it. Set up your recording equipment. You will need some basic equipment to record your podcast, including your microphone, recording software, and a way to edit your audio. There are many options to choose from, ranging from inexpensive to professional-grade equipment. Record and edit your episodes. Once you have your equipment set up, it's time to start recording your episodes. You can do this by yourself or with a co-host or guest.

SPEAKER_55: Choose a hosting platform. In order to share your podcast with the world, you'll need to choose a hosting platform. Yeah, you get it. And then promote your podcast. And then finally, it can be a lot of work. But with dedication and creativity, you can create a successful and engaging show that resonates with your audience. All right.

SPEAKER_437: I just want to say that this is so comprehensive. It really is. It's so good. It's so thorough.

SPEAKER_176: It is so on point. It's exactly the right steps in exactly the right order. It's so good.

SPEAKER_10: That I think a content farm answer that infected the top 10 results would not be this good.

SPEAKER_440: Therefore, I believe this is chat GPT.

SPEAKER_40: And I'm a little scared right now because I'm starting to associate a comprehensive, thoughtful answer that's perfectly written as chat GPT. Right.

SPEAKER_190: And that's like, what's your break? Take me through your process for your answer. I'm sorry. I went first, both times. You do the next two first.

SPEAKER_189: I know I 100% excited about the game. And it's also the, I think the other dead giveaway is that it doesn't try to sell you anything.

SPEAKER_444: It's not smarmy.

SPEAKER_03: It's not smarmy. It's just this, but it is encouraging. I feel like we're starting to get to know chat GPT a little bit and it's language like this last thing where it's like, it can be a lot of work, but with dedication and a little bit of creativity, you can create a successful and engaging show. That chat GPT is like kind of encouraging.

SPEAKER_04: Remember when we had it right the play about choosing the right major? And it was like, the important thing is that you find something that makes you happy and resonates with you.

SPEAKER_189: Like it's a little gentle mom. And I think that's the giveaway for me here.

SPEAKER_01: What an insight. What an insight from you, Molly. It encourages you. It's a tell.

SPEAKER_00: If you, if it's the chat bot, they, they designed the chat bot to make you feel better about being, about yourself. Whereas Google search results are based on content, corporate content creation and corporate content creation is not designed to make you feel good. It's designed to make you click and buy something. We have figured it out. It's about the dollar. Chat GPT doesn't want to sell you something. It wants to make you successful. It wants to help you. Better intent. It's here to help.

SPEAKER_449: Just like all AI, how it always starts.

SPEAKER_453: All right, producers.

SPEAKER_00: No, it does not change producer, Nick, because they're going to make money through fees, micropayments. Chat GPT is a micropayment processor. Yeah. And so it's going to be a subscription search engine. I'll tell you right now, the business model. Chat GPT is going to partner with Google. I'll just tell you what's going to happen. Well, okay. After we get this answer, did we get it right or not? We did. Nailed it. Okay. So right now, Sundar, I have Google shares. I'm going to sell my Google. I'm making a J trade right now. I'm going to make a J trade right now. I'm going to get out of my Google shares. And if Google doesn't release a competitor in a hundred days, I'm selling my Google shares and I'm buying Microsoft shares because my understanding, and I'm going to need my producers to tell us on tomorrow's show. This is an assignment. From now on, we're doing assignments for tomorrow's show or Wednesday's show. I want to know the relationship between Microsoft search and open AI.

SPEAKER_05: I know this investments. I know all this other stuff. They're using Azure, I understand, as their cloud. I want to know if they have the exclusive right to search. I need somebody to either tell me or leak me, whatever. Don't break any laws. But if somebody has information they want to give to the TWI startup or producers at thisweekinstartups.com from an anonymous account, I think Microsoft Bing has the exclusive on this for search.

SPEAKER_08: If that is the case, and if Microsoft, if Google and Sundar do not release something competitive in a hundred days, I'm selling my shares in Google and I'm moving them to Microsoft.

SPEAKER_190: Microsoft, this could be the Google search killer.

SPEAKER_05: Now that's going to be hard to happen, but you know what? There was a time when people thought Google was a toy and Yahoo directory was the winner. And I, we all saw that movie and it happened faster and more violently than we thought. This is red alert for Google. Google needs to fire a third of its employees and tell the other two dots to get back in the office and to make a competing broader.

SPEAKER_00: This should be an existential moment for Google. And I don't perceive them taking it serious enough. I agree. I think if you own Google shares right now, you need to have your finger on the sell button. I'm hovering over the sell button on my Google shares and I'm hovering over the buy button. Mark, 100 days from today, I want a 100 day clock on producer. Nick, remind us every 20 days or so to talk about this. And I'm going to make this trade in the next hundred days. I'm going to double my position in Microsoft and sell my position in Google. Boom.

SPEAKER_300: All right. Now tell us how chat GPT is going to make money.

SPEAKER_131: Very simple. You were on the verge. Yes. Yes. It's very simple.

SPEAKER_00: Microsoft is going to make Bing search have this feature. Microsoft does not need to make money from their search engine. They need to get people into their ecosystem. If this is integrated into the ecosystem, it keeps the Windows franchise going. It keeps the office franchise going. It increases the search results in Bing. They will figure out a way to make money from it just from having more users in their ecosystem. Microsoft games, Microsoft office, Azure. This is going to grow those businesses. So in the same way, Google does not need to make money from Google office or Google docs. What do they call the Google suite? Google suite. Google suite. Google suite. Google suite. It's not what makes Google money. Google suite keeps you on Google's website, right? How do you get to Google suite? You open up the Google search interface and you go to the top right hand box and you hit that little four thing and it's got the icon for Google docs, right? It keeps you in the Google ecosystem. You're using Chrome, right? It's just that you're using Chrome, you're using Google docs, using Google presentations, and that makes you search more.

SPEAKER_123: What search will do at Bing is it'll make you, they'll have the little thing for Microsoft, for Xbox 360, for Minecraft, for office.

SPEAKER_00: It'll make you use those, it'll make you use those more and those franchises. So you have one franchise that makes it through cloud computing and, um, software, and the other one makes it through search and advertising. People hate advertising in certain contexts. I think in search, they like it, but you can lose Microsoft doesn't, doesn't have the dependency Google does on, on ad revenue.

SPEAKER_469: So your margin is my opportunity.

SPEAKER_03: Also the AI. I mean, we're just assuming that this is only good for search, right? This is still a massively power, a powerful AI technology that can make all of its other products better. So the more it gets us using, we, we assume, right?

SPEAKER_55: None of the articles that have talked about Microsoft's investment have ever even mentioned Bing.

SPEAKER_03: Um, and so it makes, does make me wonder like if a tiny bit, they haven't thought of that, which is kind of awesome because they are thinking about it now. Um, but the idea of all of us in there, Molly, it's, it is not being, they may not be saying it because it's the most important.

SPEAKER_25: Because it's the most important part, exactly because all of us using Bing GPT trains Bing GPT to make every other Microsoft product better because they can embed this AI and, you know, all of a sudden your email writes itself and your, you know, cloud automatically optimizes for this, that, and then what, like all, whatever, even magic AI can do.

SPEAKER_02: It all does as a result of us training it by using it for search.

SPEAKER_228: Can I give Sam Altman his flowers for a second? Yeah. Sam Altman's brilliant. I mean, I know Sam personally, I've just, the kid's brilliant for two reasons. One, he flipped this to a for-profit.

SPEAKER_74: Number two, Sam Altman is brilliant because he knows Google had the bet on DeepMind and they're, they're doing no deal with OpenAI. And he said, who is their biggest rivalry and let me create a deep relationship with them. You don't need to make a relationship with the number one person. What you want to do is make a relationship with the person competing with the number one person.

SPEAKER_333: He understood that.

SPEAKER_05: He's a pretty good, pretty good poker player. So I think he knows how to manage risk and place bets. What a brilliant move historically for him to align OpenAI with Microsoft, because they also have GitHub.

SPEAKER_00: And GitHub was a Y Combinator company. You remember, you know, Sam Altman was president of Y Combinator for a while. He then, GitHub uses OpenAI for their co-pilot product, you know, thing that helps write code. Yeah.

SPEAKER_490: Man, Microsoft's going to buy OpenAI or OpenAI is going to just be a sister company or whatever.

SPEAKER_03: But Microsoft's like literally could be the company that runs the, I mean, they just, they just did such a silent turnaround. Like they went underground after the big antitrust thing, the Balmer years.

Jason Calacanis: And Satya has come in and he is just the silent killer. Like they're going to take over everything.

SPEAKER_03: And then also more flowers for Sam Altman, who knows how to keep his own money in his pocket. Because did you also hear about how AI, OpenAI has a profit cap to investors at a hundred, they can only do a hundred X or 20 X.

SPEAKER_75: Yeah. A hundred X. Something like that. And I was like, by the way, if you're pricing the thing at 20 billion, like, is it really going to become a trillion dollar company?

SPEAKER_00: Like, it's kind of like me being like, you know, what, uh, I can't use that analogy. Um, I was going to use a dating analogy. Sorry. I had to solve myself. Um, it's like me being like, you can come to my restaurant, but you can only spend a thousand dollars on dinner per person. Right. And you're like, how do I do that? And it's, it's a $300 prefix. You know, like you got three Michelin stars. How do I spend a thousand? You're like, nope, sorry. One thousand per person. You're like, okay, I guess I have to buy a, you know, $700 worth of wine per person and get the white truffle supplement.

SPEAKER_75: I don't know.

SPEAKER_501: It's like the greatest reverse psychology ever. It really is. You can only make a hundred X.

SPEAKER_502: You're like, that's what I want to make. Never made a hundred X on a late stage investment. Well done, Sam Altman.

SPEAKER_503: Chef's kiss to you.

SPEAKER_00: Slow clap. All the flowers. All the flowers. Little big things is something that I wanted to do here based on a website.

SPEAKER_423: I want to give the website, the flowers is the website, biglittlethings.com or littlebigthings.com.

SPEAKER_00: It's the opposite. So we did the opposite here, even though we stole it from them. So we're doing little big things, but if you were to go to little big details, I love this website.

SPEAKER_05: I visited every three or six months and I like an hour goes by. They just on this website, littlebigdetails.com.

SPEAKER_00: It's for a bunch of design geeks and they point out little design things that are notable. We are doing little big things, not little big details. So we stole it from them, uh, to do this segment. Please don't sue us. But it's little things you and I find in the world or producer Rachel that we think are notable and fun and we want to give them a high five, some flowers.

SPEAKER_01: What do we got this week? I know.

SPEAKER_03: And this week is one of these, I mean, this was like a stealth product appearance that took the world by storm. Instagram of all things rolled out a new feature that I have not seen anywhere else, which one is crazy. It does not appear to be a direct rip off. And all of a sudden everybody seemed to find out about it and use it all at once. It's called notes, Instagram notes. And in your, in your DM interface, which is of course where all the kids live, you can hit this little plus button and leave a little note for people. And they can respond, like, I don't know that everybody immediately figured out it's a sort of potentially a chat prompt, like chat GPT, but for humans who follow you, but you just leave this cute little note. And all of a sudden it was like, it appeared, everybody loved it. Everybody's using it. I'm like, how did everyone know about this? And how did Instagram invent a new thing as opposed to stealing it from someone else? I'm so confused.

Chamath Palihapitiya: Well, it's basically a, it's basically a tweet.

SPEAKER_05: I think that starts a private chat, but it is, I think best described as a chat prompt because it's not public. Right. Um, and so there's Rachel, I have no thoughts, only vibes, you know, that's, that's like a gen Z thing, you know, perfect. She's got that little gen Z melancholy and the infinite sadness, uh, you know, vibes.

SPEAKER_490: And, uh, you can look it up later, Rachel. It's one of the greatest albums of Genesis.

SPEAKER_240: Brian says it's like hinge the dating app.

SPEAKER_120: Ooh, is that where they, I have never been on hinge either. Is that where they were from?

SPEAKER_516: Molly's a liar. She's been on hinge.

SPEAKER_120: No, I'm a bumble girl. Ooh,

SPEAKER_518: don't, you just got a bunch of stands and sims to download bumble.

SPEAKER_273: You should get paid for that. No, no, no. That's why I use bumble because only the woman can message.

SPEAKER_05: Oh, sweet. Mm-hmm. Yeah, this is great. This is a great little big thing for you to check out in your Instagram feed.

SPEAKER_00: If you have little big things you've noticed in products in the world, please email producers at this week in startups.com.

SPEAKER_261: And if you'd like to make the jingle for this, you might get yourself 15 minutes on zoom with me, uh, or $500 sent to your Amazon gift card, whatever you want. The end. All right. Great show, everybody.

SPEAKER_40: Great show. All right. Okay. So, uh, Molly, why does it matter that they're doing this?

SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, I think it matters because it's Instagram trying to, uh, take better advantage of its, its status as a communication platform. That's my theory because this only exists in your DM, um, interface, which again, like a lot of olds don't use Instagram for DM, but Gen Z's, my kid doesn't even text, right? All of his chats are in Instagram DM and Instagram has been, I think, way behind the curve in terms of getting broader awareness of its group chat capabilities. Like they're just getting trounced by iMessage and signal and here they are, in fact, a pretty decent messaging platform that's built into the place you're already sharing with stories.

SPEAKER_66: So I think they're trying to drive people and start those chats by actually giving you an ability to prompt those chats.

SPEAKER_08: So it's going to raise engagement, but Instagram is known as the superficial social network images, stories, you know, Insta models, Insta girlfriends, Insta husbands, all this. Like everything is based on the photo and like, you know, the FOMO, but here's a place where you could, uh, be more intimate if I would use a word or be more personal.

SPEAKER_74: And I have to say, when I was having my email weekend, my pity party this weekend, I put a sad face, I know, and I put it off legitimately worried when it was my cry for help.

SPEAKER_166: I was being a whiny little word you want to put as the third word, a whiny little bee, a whiny little boy.

SPEAKER_529: WLB. That's right. A WLB. A whiny little boy.

SPEAKER_126: Okay. Okay. No, Nick. No, J. Cal. You are allowed to have feelings and still be a strong, healthy human in the world.

SPEAKER_531: Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_03: Good God.

SPEAKER_141: I had a feeling it was pathetic. I'm sorry. I don't mean to be, you sound like my daughter now who thinks I'm a toxic male. I am. I'll put it out there. I have a little toxic masculinity. I'm of a certain generation.

SPEAKER_535: What's that? Nick was doing it too. He's like, snowflake.

SPEAKER_526: I was being a little emo. I was snowflaking it. And I was just like, ah.

SPEAKER_05: And you know what I did? I did slope therapy. Four out of the last six days, I got on the slope.

SPEAKER_536: I put in a Pink Floyd concert. I put in a Dire Straits concert. Then I put in infinite. I put in melancholy, infinite sadness. And I started playing some like really good Billy Corrigan. And I just ripped it.

SPEAKER_00: And I did whatever, four or five hours on the mountain alone. I'm back. I'm back to my toxic masculinity. The samurai armor's back up. Let's kick some ass. Sorry about the F bomb. No more feelings ever again. Let's kick some ass. I don't need emotions. And then I just replaced my sad face and my emo exhausted. And literally, it was so great though, Molly. I had like 10 people immediately. You're okay, buddy. You're okay, little boy. You're okay, little boy. I was like, you need a hug. I was like, hang in there, buddy. Hang in there, buddy. You got this. Hang in there, little buddy. I sent you a hang in there like a kitty. You did. You did. Thank you for that. Everybody needs to hang in there, little buddy. Everybody needs to hang in there, little buddy. Yeah. So this is, I want to give the Instagram team their flowers today. It's flowers Monday. It's

SPEAKER_01: I can try to keep everything on a positive tip here. My Knicks are on a seven game winning streak. You will know my psychology based upon my portfolio, based upon the ratings of the show, based upon the Knicks record and how many hours I'm on the slope. I'm a simple person. I'm a simple person. You can decode them. You can decode them. It's easy. You can read me like a book. Knicks on a seven game win streak. Jake, I was going to be upbeat. That's a good tip. That's a good tip. I'm going to, I'm going to pull, I'm going to put that in my, whatever my stocks app is. We're in the sixth seed.

SPEAKER_05: It feels like we can beat, uh, any team in the East, but two, I'll take it. I'll take a set. I'll take a first or second round exit. As long as we put up a fight for my Knicks and I'll go to New York for it. Molly. Great job today on the show.

SPEAKER_556: Great show. Good Monday energy.

SPEAKER_557: Producers. Good job. Everybody's product.

SPEAKER_440: If I was going to rate one to 10 producers performance today with no eights, I give it a nine, give it a solid nine. If that jingle had been there, it'd be nine and a half. And in my world.

SPEAKER_08: There's no tens. So I'm just giving you a tip. The best you're going to do with me is eight and a half, nine, nine and a half. And I'm giving today a nine. So kudos to the producers. If you had the damn jangle, you would have got a 9.5, which is perfect in Jake. I was book. I've never given myself a 10. Okay.

SPEAKER_312: The journey is never done. Everybody. All right. Stay tuned.

SPEAKER_199: By the way, at the end of the show here, the special announcement, um, a lot of people have been asking about this, uh, CEO search.

SPEAKER_05: And, uh, I just got a DM and, uh, just want to let everybody know that Mark Benioff and Bob Iger are going to remain CEOs of Salesforce and Disney.

SPEAKER_00: This is just important CEO notifications. We're always tracking Molly, the CEO position that people have a lot of questions for me, CEO jobs.

SPEAKER_199: So many, those two are locked and loaded. Congratulations to those incredible executives, uh, for doing a great job. We'll see you all tomorrow. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_569: Bye-bye.