SPEAKER_01: hey everybody welcome back it's monday god there's a lot going on molly what is on deck for today

SPEAKER_00: it's almost becoming like a drinking game just like take a little take a little shot of muscle

SPEAKER_03: milk or something every time we say it's a big week big news week but it is we're uh first up we're actually going to talk about tesla ai day and the the potential sort of hinge moment that we're at with the development of general ai and what it could mean for the future of humanity and

SPEAKER_06: all the startups that have yet to be born and the sec is charging kim kardashian with unlawfully

SPEAKER_08: promoting crypto tokens she got a big speeding ticket but we'll talk about all the other sec actions that are going on and will this bleed over into the vcs founders and boards and lawyers

SPEAKER_03: in tech startups and then we wrap with a conversation that starts out heated and ends up in a great place about the supreme court announcing that they will hear two cases on section 230 and we discover

SPEAKER_17: that all these things have a common thread they do they do and i really wonder if the algorithm is the big issue here and molly unpacks it definitely it's going to be a great episode and an important

SPEAKER_19: conversation definitely stick with us this week in startups is brought to you by notion is one place

SPEAKER_20: for notes docs projects and everyday work that goes way beyond a wiki get started for free at notion dot com slash twist snack magic and swag magic are global gifting platforms and the most stress-free and customizable way to delight employees or customers get 10 cash back up to one thousand dollars until october 15th with code holiday and see more at snackmagic.com twist and odoo is a fully customizable and fully integrated suite of business apps that lets you build and scale your stack as you build and scale your business your first app is free forever and right now odoo is offering one thousand dollars off your first implementation pack at odoo.com twist that's odoo.com twist all right everybody it

SPEAKER_23: is monday eventful uh week and last week and this week a lot of stuff going on molly i was i woke up

SPEAKER_03: this morning with um this song called odds are by the bare naked ladies in my head which is a deep cut that's a deep pull on my part but i'm pretty sure that it was just my subconscious waking me up with like it's okay there's not going to be a global financial collapse and a nuclear war in the same week plus the supreme court reconvening to take away more rights or is there odds are no yeah odds are

SPEAKER_27: no i suggest no twitter week that would be amazing what if we just heard about it and just and we

SPEAKER_00: didn't look at twitter and i wonder what jason just literally laughing he's like yeah that's crazy i

SPEAKER_32: can't do that he's like no i didn't look at this i produced a book in 11 languages yeah when i took

SPEAKER_25: three months off from twitter i got my book done yeah this is the week to write a book and not look at

SPEAKER_38: twitter it there's yeah the world seems crazy but you can actually break it down and i actually feel

SPEAKER_40: pretty hopeful you know i i uh i guess related to our first story on friday a friend of mine invited me you know uh he had like an event for his company this tesla ai day now in regards to other things

SPEAKER_23: with my friend i just want to say you know me i would love to be talking right now but i'm under basically like a gag order for legal reasons so as much as i would love to talk i am having to restrain

SPEAKER_41: myself i can't believe you even want to tiptoe near no i can with this i kind of have no choice

SPEAKER_42: i mean i've got literally 50 press you know contacting me a day uh friend you know friends are generally cool about it but you know on twitter everybody's just like hey what's going on these things and let's just leave it at this i'll have a lot to say when the twitter uh acquisition trial is over and i will say plenty at that point but right now anything i were to say including right now saying i'm saying nothing no totally is going to be handed back to me in a transcript for me to comment on and so this circular thing i haven't been involved in any kind of depositions or discovery literally since the last time it happened was 1995. so uh just leave it to say i'm rot or die i jump on a grande for you molly we'll just leave it at that for now just leave it at that

SPEAKER_44: but i will say uh on friday uh i got to see um tesla ai day and um this was amazing really really amazing uh it's a recruiting event so if you're in ai there everybody knows you have like choices of places you can go to work and some places you go to work you might be working on ai to optimize ads so more people click them and other places you might optimize for self-driving technology or a robot and i think pretty obvious choice if you were going to go work and like optimize ads

SPEAKER_46: maybe not as interesting as uh creating a robot or a self-driving car but boy i have the self-driving full self-driving beta on my tesla i was using it this weekend and it is really scary how good it's getting

SPEAKER_44: like it is really getting smart and uh you know i've met the team on the self-driving team they watch this podcast by the way um and the the the tesla ai team is like really next level and so it's really great to see them do the work but i had kind of a revelation molly which i tweeted about this morning

SPEAKER_48: since i got up at 4 30. yeah i worked out a whole bunch this weekend let's go back to that oh

SPEAKER_41: it gives you so much energy well here's what happened i i did tennis and i did my normal workouts

SPEAKER_44: and so i had this like very active weekend and my body was super tired last night sunday and i never fall asleep before 1am i'm up till 12 1am as people know they get my tweets that you know it's pretty

SPEAKER_53: easy to see that i'm a night owl anyway i i laid down and i was like uh you know asking the wife like hey you want to watch house of the dragon the dragon and she was stoked to watch it and then she came i

SPEAKER_42: fell asleep like 10 o'clock so of course i only need six hours of sleep maybe seven i try for i

SPEAKER_40: wake up at 4 30 again like c-3po just sit up like boop okay what's going on i thought maybe something was wrong and i was like oh i didn't watch house of the dragon so now i'm up at 4 30 and i got a lot of work done this morning but i i was thinking about ai and uh i was thinking about the profound impact

SPEAKER_58: it's gonna take this a little bit of a thesis i have right now i'm just gonna unpack it here and it

SPEAKER_46: came a little bit from what i saw friday but then a bunch of what we've been talking about

SPEAKER_44: okay so i'm watching elon uh and his team show the robot now of course people are like oh my god that robot's not as good as boston dynamics oh my god that robot you know uh they had to roll out the 2.0 yada yada uh oh it's it's uh stuttering stuff people don't understand exactly how deep the ai is going there they're doing such deep work in ai that they're making their own server farms that can process large corpus uh such a large corpus of all the driving data what i want to talk about here is what we saw with dolly what we saw is it gp3 gpt3 okay gp3 is gary payton yes so anyway what we saw ai do at open ai with text and with dolly and then we just saw with video with facebook's ai team

SPEAKER_62: and that we saw with deep mind at google doing chess video games and then go and poker uh what we're seeing is each of the vertical ai's getting uh to a point just in the last couple of years

SPEAKER_63: and it seems like the pace of this is increasing does it not molly oh 100 i mean we just talked

SPEAKER_64: about this last week that it's yes we're at a sort of it feels like a generational inflection point with

SPEAKER_42: ai correct and so this reminds me a lot of what happened with broadband uh and the internet having

SPEAKER_62: witnessed that it was slow slow slow slow and then all of a sudden everybody got broadband all of a sudden uh cloud computing happened and then we saw web 2.0 and people could build things very quickly

SPEAKER_40: and then the number got super fast too and mobile and then mobile broadband so this broadband thank you for punching it up this broadband history combined with mobile phones processors and cloud computing

SPEAKER_53: this whole thing came together to make just so many experiments and experiments is what we call startups so if you're listening to this keep that in mind when i say experiments and that changed the world the internet has on a technological basis i don't think there's any technology or anybody would disagree with this that that has had the most profound effect on humanity just the internet well

SPEAKER_40: now i'm watching ai and the progress to me reminds me of what happened when we tipped over to broadband cloud computing and mobile when those things happened all of a sudden whoop and i that's what's happening with the tools uh in ai theoretically ai should be able to take a bunch of inputs and give

SPEAKER_53: an answer and then we don't know exactly what happened in that neural net machine learning but what's happening right now as a stepping stone to that point is what they call narrow ai is toppling each of these cities art words driving poker games of skill chess games of chance poker games uh you know strategy so we're starting to watch each of these cities crumble and i get the sense that this next couple of years is going to be when it all you know sort of tumbles over and movement which all things on the planet do

SPEAKER_40: right we move as humans we walk we get in cars planes the planet is moving everything's moving mass is moving but moving is super complicated when you think about it as a task just like chess is

SPEAKER_15: complicated but it's not as complicated as moving right it's not as complicated as the literal hand

SPEAKER_79: picking up the piece okay incredible incredible punch-up molly thank you so here we go uh you're here for a reason i mean you have great insights here um not just a pretty face folks some substance here

SPEAKER_80: both of us i know it's tough when you tune in and you see two charming blondes i know they're so you

SPEAKER_84: know you're like there is some substance here yeah and so what what i think is happening is watching

SPEAKER_62: his team talk about each of those components and they're building models to test scenarios they're trying to figure out the world depth height all of these things and each one of those is taking years for teams to topple but as they topple each one each subsequent one gets easier just like when you put a bunch of cloud computing stuff in and you build the uh tools to publish to the cloud it gets

SPEAKER_44: easier easier easier and a startup being launched today costs a hundredth or maybe a thousandth of what it would cost in terms of engineering hours than it did in 1995. that's happening big time in ai and machine learning and so i think we're on the cusp of something very big that uh like you talked about bankruptcy happens slowly and then all at once yeah gradually and then suddenly it's gradually and then suddenly is what's happening right now and it feels like this is going to be a more profound this could be as or more profound i suspect more profound than the difference between not having the internet and

SPEAKER_40: having the internet listen if you're a startup you need to sign up for notion right now i want you to head to notion.com twist and sign up for free at launch we run our entire organization inside of notion now notion is an all-in-one team collaboration tool you can think of it like note-taking document sharing like a spreadsheet a database a wiki all of those things put together but with communication and teams built into it it is a gorgeous product and the design is stunning it's easy to learn how to use but once you learn it you start uncovering all these incredible features now we were looking at crm systems and i looked at a lot of them and i wanted to have like a crm for all the companies we meet and it turned out we built our own deal flow crm inside of notion i was able to do all this and build

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SPEAKER_07: started today yeah this is um these are these are the moments when i am so delighted not to be a journalist and excited to be an investor because this is a wide open lens to apply to this topic as

SPEAKER_03: opposed to the narrow lens of i thought it should look like this by now this guy can do this and that did this and right like when you get to imply apply this and and listen i wish more journalists could when you get to apply this big huge wide lens what is this what moment are we in and what could it mean then an entire universe of possibilities opens up to you you start to say okay what does the world look like and what are the businesses that can be born and the products that can be built when the cost of creation goes to zero do i do we're not when we talk about wanting to to back technical founders what do we even mean anymore do they have to know how to code because i'm pretty sure a machine's gonna be able to do that right so like what do do they actually just need to know how to harness you know i mean granted i sort of wish you'd stop talking about cities tumbling that metaphor is a little like

SPEAKER_44: on the nose when i yeah i mean it's possible and we should be deploying this with a you know a lot of thoughtfulness obviously yes for sure i think that elon himself has noted well yeah i mean it used to

SPEAKER_07: be he did notice the biggest threat to humanity and now it's like no no we'll just put it in a robot like

SPEAKER_103: well i mean and the great news is that he said this over and over is if you look at the corporate

SPEAKER_06: structure there are corporate structures in the world where you have god kings new york times

SPEAKER_44: facebook are the top two examples you could buy as many shares as you want in both of those companies and you will have zero impact on the companies because they have super voting shares you can't

SPEAKER_62: change anything about the new york times as an activist investor or facebook you can have the most moderate impact on both those companies google they have some super shares too but that's waning a little bit but tesla has no super shares you could literally buy the shares and vote out elon or anybody and so i think looking at corporate governance of who figures this out is going to be also critically

SPEAKER_25: important which which corporate entity okay yeah this is our red line okay good but there is no universe in which he can credibly talk about god kings i'm sorry i'm sorry he's not talking about that

SPEAKER_03: okay good i'm like what did he is operating as a sovereign near as we can tell in this world right now and so like um i mean he's got competition yeah yeah there's no corporate governance he could

SPEAKER_117: literally be voted out of tesla very easily there's no superstructure there i know right if he doesn't

SPEAKER_03: what could happen and then there's what will or would would anyway separate topic yeah um but i it's important yeah it's an it is it is really important to have a lot of faith let me just put this as generally as i can it is really important to have a lot of faith in the people who are building this and for there to be a lot of guidelines well yeah and elon did talk about that

SPEAKER_46: he thinks there should be people in government that are actually there should be some sort of ai uh governing body which makes sense i mean we have a governing body for

SPEAKER_44: you know food and drugs we have a governing body for marketing and communications ftc we have a governing body for securities and finance sec how do we not have one for ai and algorithms and this

SPEAKER_127: will come up later in the show as well and then now imagine if you will after my brief regression

SPEAKER_03: into journalism brain i like the balance um now imagine if you will a a world where ai can do all that it is right on the cusp of being able to do combined with i think one of the noties just pointed this out actually free energy unlimited energy right like the whether that comes from massive deployment of the cheapest electrons on the planet right now solar or in 40 or 50 years fusion and in 40 or 50 years really is still a blink of an eye when it comes to that to the timelines right of the planet so like it starts to get

SPEAKER_40: a little incredible in terms of the mind to conceive of this level of abundance and so the abundance we're talking about is it was unbelievable for people to consider the abundance of having more food than you could possibly eat right there was a period of time when uh you know regularly millions of people tens of millions of people would die of famine uh so much so that like when we we saw famines occur in the 80s and 90s it was something where the world said why is this occurring this doesn't make any sense there's so much food around and we're so good at producing food this makes no sense that we had farm aid we had live aid we had we are the world we we had just all these cause celebs and and you know manhattan level projects where we said yeah wait this doesn't make sense to us we we did this project for the dwarf weed in the in the 60s 50 60s you can look that up we figured out how to maximize per hecta acre how much calories wait why are there people starving oh wait we just can't get the food to them oh okay there's government issues okay there's supply chain issues let's just fix that and then the idea of people starving it's like very crazy to

SPEAKER_03: even think of uh or a drought killing people it's much more rare yeah yeah it's incredibly we have yeah ezra klein or derek thompson on or both we had derek on from the atlantic remember he was talking about kids and depression they're writing a book about abundance right now an abundance agenda yeah and so we are entering that phase as much as we can think about scarcity and this and that and the the supply chains and stuff you can't get like if we it actually goes back to what i was just starting to say about journalism like if you change the mindset toward thinking about what you can do can do with

SPEAKER_144: abundance oh my god it's so much more fun place to live it is a much more world positive place to live

SPEAKER_147: now if you think about the fact that we have more calories as humans that we could ever consume uh we

SPEAKER_44: have unlimited free drinking water we have unlimited energy almost a lot of these things are just

SPEAKER_62: execution or regulation or right you know dictators are disturbing blocking them yeah distribution there's different people blocking different progress in the world but the fact is we should have at this point

SPEAKER_44: already have unlimited energy because of nuclear and solar we just have not executed particularly well on those two verticals we would have already and if we had those two we'd have unlimited water if you have unlimited water and energy theoretically you have unlimited food we already have unlimited calories essentially almost free calories this would just take it to another level if you had unlimited work

SPEAKER_62: there's really hard to understand what could happen right like if you had a million people who could go do something for 24 hours a day what would that do just send a million people anywhere in the world to do something for 24 hours a day okay we got a flood in florida okay you have a million people go down there who can work 24 hours a day and don't need sleep and they could clean it up and they

SPEAKER_44: could rebuild houses and they could clog unclog drains and you know shovel you know mud whatever it is well it seems crazy but that's where we're gonna be now are we there in 10 years or 20 or 30 years

SPEAKER_53: i have a feeling we're going to get there quicker than people anticipated i think we are and we should

SPEAKER_03: not by the way overstate you cannot overstate how hard this is like back to your original point about

Jason Calacanis: motion and movement like years ago i was lucky not not even that many years ago i was lucky enough to visit uh x where google's lag yeah exactly the moonshot lab where i think i just wasn't allowed to

SPEAKER_13: photograph them i think i can talk about this yeah i mean they've spent like a decade just working on a

SPEAKER_03: hand just working on robotic hands just the hand yeah is so complicated i mean there are however many muscles in the human hand and so the ability to get the hand to move and also apply the right amount of pressure to a thing is a decade-long task yeah it's pretty amazing like it's crazy for sure

SPEAKER_62: for sure and if you look at vertical again vertical applications just narrow applications i'm not even saying narrow ai here i'm just saying narrow applications if you've ever been to uh you know a robotic factory um which tesla has built a number of they already have robots and they're doing very tight narrow things pick this up move it over here pick this up put it over here paint this spin it over turn it over you know put these bolts on so this is happening in all kinds of factories all around the

SPEAKER_44: world already and in fact cafe x which is almost up to a million dollars a year revenue rate for two machines inside of sfo i mean i can't believe this company made it through all of the horror hardship that

SPEAKER_62: it's been through but i mean i believe cafe x could change the world still even after this you know pandemic and everything because they're able to serve hundreds of cups of coffee and they

SPEAKER_44: could do thousands uh once people get used to ordering from the machine i think that's like the biggest hurdle now is people saying like i'm going to try the coffee from the machine without a human 24 hours a day and it takes about half an hour to restock the machine and wipe it down clean

SPEAKER_63: it and just make sure everything's functioning so and then we invest in those who don't know is the robotic coffee bar yeah which and we could we should pull up to the two videos of both of these videos

SPEAKER_17: but we'll pull up the root ai one as well um you know this is a company we invested in they got bought by app harvest and we invested in this four years ago three or four years ago i believe and you know

SPEAKER_40: this is again a very narrow application but computer vision and this is a type of hand that's made

SPEAKER_53: specifically for this purpose that can literally pull a strawberry or cherry tomato off of a vine without crushing it yeah so you have you know from mit to plenty other places the ability uh to build these kind this kind of hand technology and there's just so many different people working on it that the idea that we would send people into a field to pick strawberries in the hot sun breaking their backs making them cross the border to go do this in another country is going to seem insane to our children's children it's not going to exist as a thing the the concept of people going

SPEAKER_40: into a field to work a field is just going to seem crazy in 10 years or 20 years it's already starting to the idea that you would you know get an ox and you know you know uh start pulling right

SPEAKER_171: wheat as opposed to an autonomous tractor autonomous tractor right and the tractors will be autonomous soon

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SPEAKER_40: dollars until october 15th they want you to get ahead and they want you to use the code holiday it would be so nice see more at snackmagic.com twist get on this early you want to get those holiday gifts out early so people can enjoy snackmagic.com twist so this is just in the narrow programmed case

SPEAKER_44: let alone when we start getting into ai where you know the the concept of general ai you you get you just tell the the robot you tell the the ai here's the outcome i want i want you to win the chess game i want you to win this video game and then it has to figure it out i want you to pick the strawberries not crush them it's got to figure it out well there's going to be a bunch of precursors to that and it will be an emergent moment when that happens and i think what we saw you know from the facebook google deep mind uh and tesla and what they're doing like all of this stuff is the precursors to that emergent behavior now will it be general ai or will it just be the culmination of so many cities falling you know each one subsequently and then it's like well the ai has

SPEAKER_63: already figured out chess obstacles obstacles falling okay whatever i mean okay we figured

SPEAKER_40: out how to make cups of coffee hurdles being now we're gonna yeah hurdles being overcome but you know right now when we watch cafe x make this cup of coffee here you know that's not using ai this is you know a a very narrow application of robotics much like a factory where you program it this is where

SPEAKER_07: these things are this is where these things are and you're using clever app harvest by the way like

SPEAKER_03: to be on the hand front same with app harvest right it's like just use this amount of pressure that works for strawberries and tomatoes it can't just flip over and all of a sudden be like oh i can do something even softer like it's like just it's just that amount of pressure it's not yeah if you told

SPEAKER_40: it pick those things adaptable you know if you took an apple after it picked the strawberries and just said now pick these but only pick the ones that look like this the red ones not the green ones exactly this person these five you can pick these five you shouldn't pick and then it had to go pick up but okay well apples have a different firmness and they're different size and it could just figure

SPEAKER_53: it out oh and they're different height trees and and you know navigating the ground is different than in a factory uh a factory farm you know you're out in an orchard that's the difference and so

SPEAKER_187: we're we're well on our way now uh and it is it is going to happen also three little words ubi

SPEAKER_13: universal all that basic income we will figure it out but it also needs to be said over and over

SPEAKER_44: the yeah i mean this is the for the for those of us who are investing in these companies building them participating in this versus the people who are just consuming or reading newspapers and journalists who are on the outside or you know half you know have 10 knowledge of all this like what's going

SPEAKER_62: to happen is we're going to be in a situation like we are in food this is what i believe will happen with food today the issue is not do people in america or in the west have food the issue is are they accessing healthy food or are they making bad food choices and how do they make better food choices and it's like well this food takes three minutes and costs three dollars and this food costs three

SPEAKER_170: dollars but takes 30 minutes to prepare okay yeah you know like we it's just an education problem right i mean even i had the education problem of what i should be putting in my body and i think that's where

SPEAKER_46: we're going to get to which is i think everybody's going to be able to have one of these robots working for them and then it's like oh okay i own a robot i live on a farm it makes me home my food it makes my bed i have nothing to do all day how am i productive in society that's where it's going to be like purpose right yeah and young people aren't dying from cars young people are dying of

SPEAKER_53: now young people are dying of suicide and overdoses and overdoses that are kind of overlapping with

SPEAKER_17: suicide you know reckless behavior that right you know some psychologists might say overlaps with that

SPEAKER_00: like you're i don't want to say possibly related to purpose and abundance anyway i'm not trying to be a journal there's right it's all it's like a complicated you could be it is related to purpose

Jason Calacanis: it definitely is yeah it definitely my parents are rich comes this like you don't need to work yeah you know when i bring up these like social side effects that have to be considered that aren't

SPEAKER_03: that are that aren't necessarily like for us as investors we could be like that'll get figured out and we don't have to worry about it and on some level that's true unless and until it becomes the blocker for the technology and it can and will right it's like if you don't if you don't solve those

Jason Calacanis: problems simultaneously you get problems that end up being blockers for the business and the technology yeah like you you can address the social impact after the fact but democracy will already have

SPEAKER_202: been broken right like it's people these are complex impact of disinformation or targeted

SPEAKER_03: advertising and it's like how do we take a worst case scenario approach to what we're building like

SPEAKER_06: okay what happens if this goes horribly unintended consequences is definitely something to consider and like social networks didn't take it and take it serious enough right right and they can all be

SPEAKER_03: like they can at least be anticipated there can be scenario planning that anticipates unintended consequences they don't have to be unforeseen there'll be there'll be some that are

SPEAKER_06: anticipating some that won't right yeah i think you need to react to both like yeah you know did we

SPEAKER_01: think that i mean i don't know that i thought you know people would make decisions that were not based on

SPEAKER_62: their own self-interest because of things trending on social like i never thought that would happen

SPEAKER_147: yeah that they would make decisions that were literally against their own best interest but

SPEAKER_00: here we are in regards to for a second that when people were like buy all of this crypto at whatever price i tell you to that that could go horribly wrong who saw that coming all right well before we

SPEAKER_17: make that jump that's a good jump um just just for people who are like uh dunking on the robot and playing this video let's play this 39 second video no audio we'll just talk over it but yeah they were

SPEAKER_171: showing the optimus and mm-hmm so the optimist is not coming out right this is the 2.0 i think

SPEAKER_40: or not coming out now the one they're showing is there's they showed two versions one is they're i think they're both be called optimists whatever but uh this tesla robot they showed one that

SPEAKER_46: was using pulleys and joints and and hardware that was not made by tesla and then one that was making hardware by tesla so there's been a lot of these this hardware that's available that you can buy obviously you know cafe x doesn't make the robot arm uh in the case of root ai they made the hand but

SPEAKER_06: not the arm i think so they're making it from the bottom up for a purpose to work in the factories and when you dog food something there's another important lesson for founders when you're dog fooding

SPEAKER_62: the product for yourself the chances of it hitting the note and actually solving a problem becomes much higher why well because you need the product and you know exactly what you want so you can define the spec so the spec for this robot is work in a factory uh doing dangerous stuff that's repetitive and hard and heavy lifting and uh don't break the cars when you do it and you know don't hurt the

SPEAKER_44: humans working around you so that narrow uh focus i think is going to make this very successful and and i was watching people people dunk on it uh you know it's always going to be critics um who've done nothing in their lives um but complain but uh typically the same critics i remember from the roadster days and they were like well that's just a lotus elise with a battery in it and it was like yeah

SPEAKER_40: but it has a battery in it and it has a motor that's not burning fuel and it doesn't have oil and they're like yeah but it's it's basically like a glorified lotus and i was like well that's like the negative the most negative framing you could come out of right and so the negative framing here was

SPEAKER_46: oh not as good as a boston dynamics or it doesn't do this or you know it's not ready and it's like

SPEAKER_44: i would be very careful judging the company tesla and i'm not a shareholder i'd be very careful

SPEAKER_62: underestimating what they're capable of given what they did and the resources they have now they have a different level of resources than they had then and look what they did then they literally destroyed the entire car industry and became the number one car in any sector where they were selling you know a

SPEAKER_17: a competitive vehicle for something completely different and they did it like in most countries

SPEAKER_62: so i would be very careful because they have more resources now and they're making it for themselves so

SPEAKER_06: i don't think you're going to have this in your house like anytime soon but i do think you're going to go to a tesla factory in two years and see a lot of these doing actually meaningful work now

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SPEAKER_03: flashy human here we go maybe yeah okay so huge news all over the internet because uh even gary gensler knows that if you put kim kardashian in your headline everybody gonna click it today uh we got news that the sec is charging kim k for quote unlawfully touting a crypto security yep on her instagram earlier this morning the sec said that kim violated its rules when she posted about ethereum max's emax coin without disclosing that she was paid to promote it so she didn't include uh because there's the ftc has a rule that you have to include a hashtag ad if you're being paid to promote something online this is rarely enforced it is occasionally not enforced i don't think yeah yeah i think maybe there are like one or two cases ever previously of it being enforced but it turns out the ftc but okay gary

SPEAKER_07: gensler is with right exactly so it turns out that the sec thinks that that disclosure is even more

Jason Calacanis: important when you're talking about tokens which it is increasingly and now quite definitively saying

SPEAKER_03: our securities here's sec chair gary gensler on cnbc this morning talking about the charge in actually

SPEAKER_240: quite simple terms it's 55 seconds congress passed a law many decades ago called the securities act and it was to protect the public and part of that law said that if you tout a stock you need to disclose not only that you're getting paid but also the amount so the source and the nature of those payments and this law was passed in the 1930s we've brought these types of cases over the the decades but even in the last five years with regard to crypto it's really important that the public understand if somebody is touting a crypto security token are they getting paid and how much are they getting paid and we brought a case a number of years ago i think four four years ago against floyd uh mayweather against uh dj uh khalid uh steve seagal uh an actor uh and others over the years i like the fact that he has to say steve seagal

SPEAKER_246: khalid i know poor an actor just because most of you have no idea who steve seagal is you should have

SPEAKER_247: just said he's a bad actor from the 80s you haven't seen him unless you watch khalid i mean

David Friedberg: i'm just dead um dj khalid kim is not the first i remember the floyd mayweather one right so i remember

SPEAKER_256: that one yeah there have been crypto related enforcements right definitely and then here's

SPEAKER_03: where gary gansler gets quite specific on this topic of securities this is 48 seconds does that

SPEAKER_258: make the case more firm that the sec would then be the place where these are all regulated our agency

SPEAKER_240: is an agency that oversees this basic bargain when a group of entrepreneurs is raising money from the public the public's anticipating a profit they need disclosure full fair and truthful disclosure and that's the core bargain in our capital markets you get to take the risk but the person raising money or the person's raising money has to disclose various information to you that seems how our capital markets work best the sec is very good at this and that's what we do and the case law is clear on this the law is clear i believe based on the facts and circumstances most of these tokens

SPEAKER_117: are securities yeah so there's two things going on here most tokens are securities that was a big that was a bombshell that was a big earthquake today and a lot of people well by the way gary

SPEAKER_44: gensler talked about this back in september of this year he was at the senate bank committee here and gensler alluded to the fact that coinbase might have dozens of securities on its platform this created a lot of brouhaha a lot of lawyers started sending memos to their clients and i got wind of it but basically he's observing that coinbase did not have a license to operate as a stock exchange quote even though they have dozens of tokens that might be security so the saber rattling from the sec and gary gensler has been frequent and specific the reason he's mentioning that is because you keep

SPEAKER_104: bringing up the ftc rules about ads we all know about that right like it's pretty much common knowledge and what we learned today is in addition to that there was an sec mandate and we don't know

SPEAKER_40: the act but i'm trying to find the specific act because you heard him mention it that if you are a influencer or you're promote if you're promoting a stock not only do you have to put ads you have to put how much you were paid this is something i was not aware of that clause until today that you had to disclose how much you made so she not had to put ads she had to put how much she was paid somewhere in the disclosures so if you are doing some promotion now this makes me wonder where is this law where is this act i'm trying to find it i asked our producers to go try and find it

SPEAKER_35: it's touting provision of federal security law anti-touting anti-touting t-o-u-t-i-n-g touting let's see here all right okay i got it the anti-touting right and they have filed other

SPEAKER_03: so it basically says if you're going to promote this you have to disclose all of the things that you just said what's interesting about this i think and again so there's go there is a lot of focus on kim k here and a lot of discussion of does this fine is it material to kim k and why her and anybody else the only question i think is relevant here is why her and not anybody else because i think actually it is a huge shot across the bow of the anybody else who's been touting like there have been a lot of tweets to the effect of like there are a lot of vcs shaking in their boots today

SPEAKER_237: okay so she's not the first what determines touting yes so this is this is the piece that i think a lot

SPEAKER_40: of people were not aware of um because kim wanted to probably do the right thing right she put ads in it so if she had known about the touting law then she would have probably followed it right

SPEAKER_276: yeah presumably yeah if she had put hashtag ad on there then she was obviously aware that's my point

SPEAKER_13: well and nobody knew nobody knows if these things are freaking securities or not now he's coming out after the fact we find you at 1.2 million dollars because they're all securities like yeah

SPEAKER_62: thanks for the heads up bro well i think a lot of the people on the crypto side knew they were securities because their lawyers told them they were they told them they were in a gray zone and they came up with all these fugazi fakakha insane interpretations and fakakha dang ridiculous it was ridiculous ridiculous what a lot of these attorneys and law firms did and a lot of entrepreneurs did what's called law firm shopping partner shopping you basically find a law firm that says like we'll be okay with this in this context we'll tell you what you want to hear right so there are crypto law firms that will advise startups to go one direction there are crypto there are non-crypto law firms will be like i don't want to be involved in this and there's everything in between and so the companies knew it their attorneys knew it they knew that what they

SPEAKER_44: were doing was really uh at best gray but they knew it was probably illegal and they tried to come

SPEAKER_62: up with every spin of why these weren't securities and they knew they were and the same is true for the vc firms because the vc firms were investing in tokens to get a return for their lps so they knew that these tokens did not pass the sniff test or the literal test of not being securities so there are vcs who bought a bunch of tokens i think they knew what that and knowing these vcs they're the most savvy financially illiterate people in the world i think they suspended disbelief out of greed i think that these uh celebrities suspended disbelief out of greed they would have never bought these tokens with their own money dj khaled steven seagal if he's got any money left any of these people floyd mayweather

SPEAKER_40: are grifters and grifters gonna grift and they just thought this is like me putting out some diet pills or whatever and they thought they would get away with it and they wanted to secure a quick bag she got paid 250 000 her fans if they were stupid enough to buy this stuff knowing kim kardashian has zero credibility in crypto just like this crypto people have zero credibility in the businesses she's in

SPEAKER_03: they knew what they were doing too everybody's guilty and i guess the question is but i guess the question is is kim k going to be the martha stewart here and she's the only one that goes down for this thing that everybody's doing she didn't go down herald okay you see what i'm saying is she going to be the only one who gets a 1.2 million dollar fine or is gary gensler signaling and this is the question that's all over the internet today is is the sec signaling that it's coming for all y'all who have been promoted because the the sec hat you know took an action this is just like a random thing i found from 2021 settled charges against the operator of coinschedule.com a once popular website that profiled offerings of icos remember those back in the day initial coin offerings for another

SPEAKER_259: giant scam with unlawfully touting digital asset securities how many if you really were like okay we're

SPEAKER_64: going scorched earth on anti-touting mm-hmm then it seems to me a lot of people are in these crosshairs more when you do enforcement celebrities you know having listened to preet barara uh his podcast for

SPEAKER_62: the last couple of years joyce vanson preet barara often talk about how part of enforcement is to dissuade other people from doing these crimes mm-hmm now putting aside martha stewart uh which did seem like maybe they were a little over aggressive there they've been pretty consistent here seagal steven seagal agreed to pay back the 157 which he got on celebrities the question is hold on okay sorry

SPEAKER_63: i'll get there i'll get there okay i know you i know where you're going so you're right i like us there walk us there i don't need to run no it's all right so but he also got a pre uh a pre

SPEAKER_62: judgment interest and a 157 000 penalty so i don't think kim kardashian is being treated any differently than steven seagal other than she got paid more and she's higher profile so it's nobody even expects that steven seagal would do anything on the up and up if you've seen any of his

SPEAKER_161: last 20 movies you know you got scammed by the guy oh he's running scams his very existence is a scam have you seen some of these movies i mean the guy is like 300 pounds he he can barely move and

SPEAKER_40: he's flipping like five guys who were in perfect shape were in their 30s and he's wearing like anyway it's an embarrassment to martial arts putting that aside i do think your point is correct they are going after these people because they want to stop this because this is where harm directly connects with the public so let's stop that promotion ain't nobody gonna be high on celebrities to to sell

SPEAKER_53: some coins now oh sorry some ish coins so what happens next i think you're right i think it goes to the ceos of these companies the boards of these companies the attorneys of these companies and

SPEAKER_161: your point molly the investors in these companies that's that's the these are all going to happen and if you're on the board of one of these companies if you're an investor in one of these

SPEAKER_40: companies and you didn't ask the right questions and you approved certain transactions you may be involved in a lawsuit for the next five years or you may have to pay a penalty or the company may need to be a penalty i mean you better have great insurance for your board director's insurance it's

SPEAKER_309: called uh shout out to a broker i was gonna say that broker to a broker use the promo code to a

SPEAKER_23: broker.com anyway make sure you have good insurance folks especially if you're gonna and i don't even

SPEAKER_62: know if like uh insurance companies are giving insurance to crypto companies what i mean that would be

SPEAKER_50: yeah i don't know but anyway this is not good for crypto i'll leave it at that i think that's that's

SPEAKER_03: like i don't even want to get into the kim k part of this right because everybody's like it's not

SPEAKER_315: that much money and okay no she didn't go it's a speeding ticket it's a speeding ticket for her

SPEAKER_25: it's a big speeding ticket though but it's kind of sting earthquake for the industry i'd say

SPEAKER_13: potentially right it could be the question is is it contained or is it actually the earthquake

SPEAKER_62: we've moved from contained to contagion this is a contagion now gary ganser is going after

SPEAKER_104: everybody southern district of new york uh you know san francisco fbi i mean insider trading open sea front running the market i don't know how many ways these agencies need to tell you these are securities and that y'all need to stop with the shenanigans and the made up ish bullish that you the the the intellectual the intellectual gymnastics it takes for certain vcs i'm not going to mention any here to pretend that these are not securities while buying them and flipping those bags to the public is crazy you can't be at the same time having invested in these marketplaces that are

SPEAKER_161: clearing the securities and investing in the people making up these tokens and nfts and everything and you're making money hand over fist buying and selling and flipping these things and it's like insider trading you know you can trade on private companies as we talked about here with inside

SPEAKER_44: information because it's limited the number of people who can participate in that world but with tokens if they are securities and you have inside information giving you the ability to flip them man

SPEAKER_62: this is yeah uh this could get very ugly and i wonder what the lps in these crypto funds are thinking right about now they must be going to these crypto that's what i think right at the point

SPEAKER_326: at which you have bought these tokens you're the whole goal of having the tokens is that the tokens

SPEAKER_104: would go up it's so shady and like listen when things are going up and to the right everybody loves

SPEAKER_62: to suspend disbelief and then when it comes crashing down and there's actual victims that's when these agencies take action now you can criticize that but the way we work in america is innocent until proven guilty here's the rules yeah execute as you see fit if you're going to do something shady we don't advise it get legal counsel that's how america works i don't right you know we we don't have

SPEAKER_13: and when you take it too far and you cause harm then the cops come basically basically honestly yes so far is a system that everybody seems to prefer it means you can get hurt but it also means

SPEAKER_07: that like a lot of innovation can be born yes and you can take a little bit of chance if air i bring

SPEAKER_40: this example all the time if airbnb wants to say hey we think in this city in this town in this state in this country and they're operating in many different jurisdictions we believe the interpretation of the law for how many days you can rent is x now some people could say we think it's y the hotel chains can hire lobbyists to say it's z and then ultimately there is a negotiation that happens in this case i don't think there's going to be any negotiation that happens here i think the law is the law gary gets was like here's the law you broke it we're done right we're done

SPEAKER_03: what he keeps saying you know take counter the argument that there's very little guidance what he keeps saying is like actually the rules on what makes something a security are very clear those rules are crystal clear and so if you decided that doesn't apply to me because i don't want it to that's on you precisely yeah it's going to be interesting times i i think that this we will look back at the get kim k day and be like this was when it started this is when the avalanche came down

SPEAKER_62: this is like a series of earthquakes like at what point are people going to change their behavior i think that's what gary gensler is trying to figure out and i think a lot of these enforcement agencies are like when are you going to listen like what do we have to do here like do we have to have a purple walk and arrest people and you know listen kim kardashian is not admitting any fault here so that's important she's just settling she's cooperating which is the right thing to do i actually think if they had said to kim kardashian or maybe any of these celebrities hey you have to put ad and since you're promoting a stock you need to put i was paid 250 000 to promote this and i got 250 000

SPEAKER_40: in tokens now you as a consumer if you saw that would you still have bought the tokens right exactly

SPEAKER_350: like no chance no chance so that's why this law exists yeah you know if if you see george clooney

SPEAKER_40: drinking an espresso but he does these espresso ads pull this pull up george clooney or brad pitt for doing whiskey ads in japan please you know you never see george clooney doing espresso but you'll

SPEAKER_104: see george clooney here in japan yeah and he is selling the hell out of this nespresso now he didn't do it here but in japan he's having major conversations about espresso maybe this is in france he's doing it does anybody think that george clooney likes nespresso no sorry i didn't

SPEAKER_161: man frac no george clooney has six people working his espresso machine at his estate at lake cuomo he's pulling perfect shots with the freshly best espresso beans in the world he would never touch an espresso if you if there was an espresso in his house he'd throw it right in the garbage you buy him that as a gift it goes right in the garbage he gives it to his gardener that's it it's insulting but so when you see him doing these ads do you think he's really drinking that coffee no but it's not a financial product you're not going to lose your shirt buying an espresso machine is the reason that they do them

SPEAKER_03: in japan is it it's not regulation right it's just brand protection it's just brand protection it's

SPEAKER_62: yeah yeah okay 100 100 yeah but anyway these people knew it was all just an excuse i will say this shame on kim kardashian shame on steven seagal not that there's any amount of shame you can put on that person that would make any difference for this case but these people are grifters top to bottom

SPEAKER_104: they well everybody who this is where the money they're selling out their own fans they know it's a garbage they know it's garbage and they sold gar but and the celebrity literally exists because

SPEAKER_13: fans get sold out all the time like that's like come on i know but i you know you look at that uh

SPEAKER_62: lip gloss or you know skims these seem like great products so stay in your lane and don't take the stupid money fire festival nonsense nick asks a really good question which is like who don't they

SPEAKER_07: have people to say no to this like no brought they don't steal the camp and what's amazing is for all

SPEAKER_13: of the people who are like this fine is just a drop in the bucket okay the fine is 1.2 million dollars she got paid 250 000 for this it's a million dollar fine yeah nothing for her it's nothing but i'm just saying if you think it's nothing check yourself because this is how rich people get rich and stay rich is that they value every dollar and 250 000 worth worth it listen man fans and promote this bs

SPEAKER_371: you don't think that i've gotten maybe not kim kardashian level offers of course not but a lot of

SPEAKER_62: times people are like hey can you promote this we'll give you x we'll give you y and i'm like you know what you can buy ads on the pod if the ads work for you and if there's any claims in the ads we give a disclaimer yada yada and this doesn't mean i don't believe in technology cryptocurrency coming every other wednesday we have sunny and vidion we do a great job talking about the reality and the good stuff in crypto but selling these coins bad on kim bad on floyd they all knew what they

SPEAKER_161: were doing now are they going to go for this is my big question matt damon for crypto.com i know fortune favors the ball is pooping right now how much did he get what do you think he what was the if for a super bowl ad for matt damon or an actual movie star he's a list movie star at least

SPEAKER_376: he was just talking about crypto.com right not a specific token it was just the platform so i think

SPEAKER_379: he's going to be just a platform i think he's going to be okay i think that's probably smart he got good advice but he called his lawyer today yes he did to be like i think he's fine i think am i

SPEAKER_80: fine i think i think the platform's okay because he wasn't selling a financial instrument saying hey

SPEAKER_03: listen you but you never know i mean i'm just way honestly i'm way less interested in what future celebrity goes down and way more interested in what potential in what vc goes down if anyone i think

SPEAKER_44: it'll i think what they're going to try to do just practically speaking cleaning this up i think it's just going to be a series of settlements hey we're looking at the specific case yeah you know like let's say some vc invested in um do quad and this whole luna thing right i don't know if he raised

SPEAKER_387: vc money or not i'm just making this up but it's a high profile one and some vc put money in it you

SPEAKER_40: know it's completely possible the sec if we'll go and say like hey this thing went to zero did you

SPEAKER_44: lose all your money were you on the board of this did you make any money oh you sold your tokens oh you cleared your position oh you clear 5x your position okay all right um can we have all the board docs and then uh every communication you have uh about this company thank you okay and here

SPEAKER_91: we go now you're in an investigation you're being deposed and did you do anything wrong and here's your

SPEAKER_44: settlement okay you made 10 million dollars okay kim kardashian paid 4x so okay uh you got us 40 million and so this could be a speeding ticket that could get even bigger i don't know who pays that speed

SPEAKER_387: takes the venture firm pay to the lps have to give the money back does it follow through to the lps

Jason Calacanis: because it was that's what i really wonder that's what i really wonder who does that'll put a stop to the whole thing what a mess lps should the lps get involved yeah it could get real messy we will by the way have another crypto roundtable coming next not this week next week yeah next week

SPEAKER_392: every other although it does seem like we need to save it i know i'm starting to wonder i'm like oh

SPEAKER_41: you might end this every week it just can't be all perp walks and all criminal actions we need to keep

SPEAKER_17: it two thirds you know like what's interesting and then one third criminal actions i know molly

SPEAKER_07: anything else in the news that we talk about pretty big pretty big week in all of the ways that we talked about at the beginning of the show not least of which is that there is a new supreme court

SPEAKER_03: session beginning god's help us who knows what's going to come out of that but we do know and this is major that the supreme court is going to hear two cases regarding section 230 the most misunderstood law that has ever existed in the united states of america section 230 is part of the communications decency act of 1996 it is the briefest possible sentence to have created so much issues so many issues but it basically says that internet providers and internet companies are not liable for content that is posted by users section 230 is the tiny little statute that is the reason that for example google could exist back in the day because google could not be sued out of existence or weblogs inc could not be sued out of existence because some user came along and posted something in the comments that was problematic it obviously since then has become a massive flashpoint for all kinds of people on the one hand you have conservatives claiming that section 230 enables inappropriate censorship of content which to be clear it doesn't it does section 230 does not exempt platforms from having to take down illegal content right so like a lot of times people want to say this means they can put anything up there even the the prescription drug stuff that's illegal like the 230 you have to take criticism stuff

SPEAKER_23: yeah yeah so you still have to take down legal stuff but like a you know like verizon is not

SPEAKER_40: if you were to use verizon to plan a bank heist verizon is not responsible for the bank heist right if you were to use amazon web services to put up to dock somebody or to put up stolen material or whatever it is

SPEAKER_161: you know like the website is not responsible for it now when it comes to youtube or facebook or instagram

SPEAKER_40: the question is are they responsible and they're pretty reasonable that they shouldn't be responsible if somebody puts up something they should be responsible they don't take it down of course what happened with 230 though is they politicized that i think trump really was using this as a saber rattling tool hey i'll take away your section 230 protection which is completely

SPEAKER_13: logical we all we none of us want to have ironically the way that conservatives have used it is to say

SPEAKER_03: we're going to take because one of the things 230 does is protect companies if they do take something down in some ways right it says you will not be punished if you take something down but you will not be held liable for things that your users post what when they said we'll take away your 230 protection it was because they were saying we don't want you to have any power whatsoever like that texas law is

SPEAKER_416: like you have to leave it up no matter what which is why it's just it's been as an independent as an

SPEAKER_44: independent slash moderate when i look at both sides and their approach to free speech both sides are just

SPEAKER_62: complete bs one side is claiming their free speech one side used to be free speech you know they all are just using it to get votes and to rile people up anybody from first principles

SPEAKER_40: would say the paper and pen company is not responsible for what you write on the piece of paper you're responsible for what you put on the piece of paper so under no conception should a hosting provider or a publishing platform be responsible for how people use that tool that's just

SPEAKER_161: insane nor could they be because there's so much you you have billions of people online how on earth

SPEAKER_40: would the internet exist if every time i published a blog post medium had to vet it or they were

SPEAKER_418: responsible for what i said now conversely literally no that is literally what we are now saying to

SPEAKER_13: facebook and youtube though you did they do have to have moderation and they've always had to have moderation you have to take down illegal content you have to you have to are they responsible for

SPEAKER_76: are they responsible for it being put up in the first place the answer should be no you would agree

SPEAKER_03: yeah absolutely right i'm so pro 230 all the way does it you know we do we need some guard rails or something like maybe but i think people deliberately distort everything around 230. i will fight the the both sides fight with you to the death but not today however it doesn't mean one

SPEAKER_127: side couldn't be more cynical than the other i i'm free freely admit that i mean the side arguing for

SPEAKER_256: more violent inducing disinformation and you know anti-vax stuff is no that's a that's a no for me

SPEAKER_104: separately for you for me just for me for me i'm fine with a comedian interviewing any scientist he

SPEAKER_13: wants about that's not a 230 argument that is a totally different argument okay i'm fine with

SPEAKER_62: somebody putting up a clip where they think is amazing oh god i just gotta start this video is

SPEAKER_430: gonna be taken now we're gonna be struck no but i mean for me i'm just like i'm not taking my information from the internet that's just me that's you and i can differ this is what's so

SPEAKER_03: interesting about the 230 case is if if section 230 protection goes away no way does that thing come up it will never get posted there will be way more censorship this was one of the big arguments actually when the dmca we're old enough to remember a time when the digital millennium copyright act was introduced that caused a lot of pre-emptive censorship right like how much how many how often does it

Jason Calacanis: happen that one of our videos gets taken down over a copyright strike they actually said you off first

SPEAKER_437: yeah they take it down and then you have to what's the and then you have to appeal it you appeal

SPEAKER_07: they have a fair use and then you win appeal right and then you win so imagine that strategy being applied to the vast majority of speech online yeah this is never gonna happen right well i don't know

SPEAKER_127: i mean it's right it would break the entire internet because consumers would be like wait i can't use

SPEAKER_40: youtube i can't use twitter i can't use facebook it's like no it would literally break the internet

SPEAKER_62: nobody wants that's why this is such a huge deal so this is just silly now the case that they're doing is not silly the case is quite serious and i think this does bring up a rub which is if you want section 230 you don't get to do editorial selection of the content and promote it once you do that you break your 230. this is why youtube has been very careful to never editorially pick the winners uh and when they did like their grant program or some things they had to like really contain it in like this little

SPEAKER_40: side unit that they weren't doing uh an editorial process and then presenting it because once you

SPEAKER_62: do an editorial process like a newspaper a magazine a tv channel you are responsible so cnn and the new york times are responsible they're not a common carrier they're not 230 because they do choose everything

SPEAKER_40: that goes on air right they have humans picking everything that's on air now where does an algorithm sit where does the algorithm sit between a human picking a human picking means you're responsible right you made a natural decision to put this on the front page of the new york times or you know youtube just saying here's videos we think you like let's say they don't do that they just put

SPEAKER_53: up videos and you have to search for them and then the algorithm comes along well the algorithm is making better choices than humans or more targeted choices they're more effective than humans at

SPEAKER_170: finding what you like so where does that fall on section 230 i think is going to become the

SPEAKER_03: overriding question and i think that is that's a huge part of this first case in which there was a college student who was one of the 130 people that was killed in those horrible remember those isis terrorist attacks in paris where they i mean just almost too terrible to talk about but so they are arguing that on the one hand youtube knowingly quote knowingly permitted isis to post on youtube hundreds of radicalizing videos inciting violence and then they want to pursue claims that youtube violated a federal law called the anti-terrorism act which lets people then sue uh if people did help aid and abet terrorist acts and then there's this question that because it recommend and the argument and this is where they get to 230 is that because youtube recommends videos it is now a publisher and that is a huge question and when you consider conservative sentiment around these platforms right now and the the makeup of the court i i feel like i don't know what's going to happen here like this is

Chamath Palihapitiya: going to be kind of bonkers potentially here's the thing nobody is giving up youtube it's just too

SPEAKER_177: core to people's lives so the question i don't think they're going to shut it down i think the question is what are they going to say to these platforms yeah here's what they could say and other

SPEAKER_62: countries could do this which is they could say turn the algorithm off or the algorithm is off because remember defaults matter the algorithm is off by default if you want to turn the algorithm on you have to pay for youtube premium and you and you have to click the button to turn it on in other words if we're going to break our 230 because of this we're going to have a paid product where the algorithm works on your chrome browser it works on your desktop and you're doing it right so i can take whatever contents on my phone and i can put it into this app that i'm using that turns text into speech that's my right to do i can edit a web page on my desktop i can do whatever i

SPEAKER_40: want with it on my desktop i can't republish it so you could say if consumers choose to take the action of doing the algorithm that's up to them therefore and and that is a possible path forward molly is that you could say hey consumers if you want to do this you can turn it on you can do it we sell an algorithm over here you can buy the google algorithm or better yet exactly albert wanger from

SPEAKER_03: union square ventures argued in his book and talked about on the show the idea that i should get to program my own youtube certain youtube should make an api so that i or somebody else can create an agent to act on my behalf to go and find the the yoga videos that are all i ever want so stop giving me all

SPEAKER_141: these weird youtube bros well and you and i had this discussion right now i might be okay like for

SPEAKER_62: me i have a different view uh than you in in this case i think when idiots post stupid stuff where they're pretending that they understand the vaccine and they understand this i'm like okay that person's in that person's a random person on the internet i don't care now you think well the goodness of

SPEAKER_13: society i think i don't put words in your mouth i just think all i want when i go to youtube is yoga videos okay why is youtube always recommending those other videos to me that is the question you might want to just asking you an algorithm question not a content question so do not confuse those two things because i'm not saying so you're okay with like kooky people saying

SPEAKER_64: is going to cure what i'm saying is okay why are those videos always showing up at the top of everybody's algorithm and it's because people watch the crap out of them and you get engagement views over them but don't confuse me with somebody who's trying to make all that content go away i'm

SPEAKER_62: asking you if you i'm asking the question hashtag cowgirl okay cowgirl that's fine i'm just asking i don't think the audience is a little confused by your position as well i just want to make sure i understand it here there can be a little tension here so you want an algorithm where you just say more cats yoga whatever you're into and uh you want a slider for isis and uh vaccine misinformation

SPEAKER_344: yeah i want a lot more isis but a lot less that's so dark i actually think that isis recruitment videos

SPEAKER_40: not beheading videos or anything horrible like that i'm such a i'm i don't know if i would call myself a free speech absolutist but if there was an isis recruitment video i would want to understand in an you know educational way how they're trying to recruit people now that doesn't mean i want the algorithm putting it at the top of people's pages after they watch like an anti-semitical comedian from france and then they jump from that you know to isis but in the proper context like here's a university professor talking about how isis you know recruits people and here's their techniques like that to me is fascinating i would like to watch that right and understanding so context matters is

Jason Calacanis: if two and if 230 goes away that video of the professor talking about it will never go up it'll

SPEAKER_481: never get posted uh correct yeah so anyway i i think this is a situation where under no circumstance is

SPEAKER_62: the supreme court going to turn this over i don't think they want to get rid of 230 because it'd just be bad law but i do think youtube and the rest of the industry is going to have to get in front of the

SPEAKER_40: algorithm issues big time big time and if they don't regulate i've talked about this before the

SPEAKER_44: mpaa say what you want about censorship etc and the mpa mpaa is too heavy-handed they have too much influence there's been a lot of criticism of the motion picture association whatever where they put

SPEAKER_40: those ratings on things what it did do was it kept hollywood out of like you know the regulatory spotlight uh because they police themselves hey dummies with algorithms publish your algorithm tell us how it works give us some freaking sliders yep so dumb why are people so dumb or let me program it

SPEAKER_03: myself exactly because they and yeah if you want a really really really great explainer about section 230 the book is called the 26 words that created the internet by a guy named jeff kossif who is a fantastic speaker on this topic and who relentlessly and diligently debunks free you know weird free speech related arguments and things about and information about 230 on the internet follow him on twitter twitter.com slash j kossif k-o-s-s-e-f-f he is amazing and has some cute cats so there you go

SPEAKER_187: but that book is fantastic on this topic and here he is four hours ago my initial reaction to the gonzalez cert grant is that at least a few justices not just thomas want to narrow 230 scope despite the claims in the court petition there was not a circuit split on this issue so the grant was fairly surprising that said i have no idea how or if a five justice majority would agree as to how court should interpret 230 there are too many dynamics imply a question against accepting any

SPEAKER_493: confident predictions i think he's referring to this case the gonzalez case is the isis case anyway

Jason Calacanis: there are two separate the supreme court is going to hear two separate cases on the section 230 topic and the gonzalez case is the isis related case this is part of the messy process of a society figuring out

SPEAKER_62: what we want as technology changes so rapidly right and what people who are running startups and investing in them the audience of this program need to understand is take ownership of your ish yes if you're pinterest and people start posting self-harm and you become aware of it you need to get on top of that and you know if you're youtube and people are putting isis stuff in there then you got to get ahead

SPEAKER_40: of that how far ahead of it can you get i actually have to give a shout out to twitter in this case they have something called bird watch now uh which i'm now part of and i had i think i broke the news of it here because somebody had leaked it to me i actually did on this podcast and what bird watch does

SPEAKER_76: is do you have bird watch do you see bird watch notes i haven't gotten it but it's the one that lets

SPEAKER_67: you flag stuff right or put a comment you can put a contextualizing comment yeah and so you pick an

SPEAKER_40: anonymous i picked an anonymous name it gives you like three words so like you know gorilla you know blue tortoise or whatever so it gives you like three random words that's how you identify yourself and your updates over time and like somebody had said oh this person from the you know said war nuclear war with putin is inevitable whatever and one of the bird watch people in real time like an hour after it happened said um this person's not in the administration they haven't been the secretary of state for this many years or whatever it was and but when you read it the way the person had tweeted

SPEAKER_53: it they were like you know secretary you know uh general whoever said this and it's like right or and this person is not actually in office right now they were so you should take this differently than it's somebody who's in our administration they're not in the administration they were in the

SPEAKER_03: Obama administration it's sort of like it's we've had we have an accidental story arc in this conversation right where there's this question of responsibility there's this question of what should you take money for and that's kind of like where the algorithm comes in the the simplest for example the simplest sentence to explain my position on this topic is that freedom of speech

Jason Calacanis: is not the same thing as freedom of reach which you start to hear some people say right just because you post it doesn't mean that youtube or facebook or instagram should promote it to me yes and and

SPEAKER_03: amplify the harm that it could cause you can post harmful content all day long and if only six people

SPEAKER_13: see it in the basement it doesn't do harm but if youtube's algorithm or facebook's algorithm or

SPEAKER_03: instagram's algorithm and to be clear whistleblower francis haugen showed us that facebook's response to this content was well it amplifies engagement yes and so we will promote it even though we know it's causing harm that's freedom of reach yeah we have to think about that that's the part and that's the

Jason Calacanis: so when people talk about narrowing the scope of 230 or how to deal with algorithms it's two different questions like there's the question of whether you should post it at all post it if nobody sees it it doesn't matter then there's the question of what should happen after it's posted and whether these sites should use it to monetize no matter what the harm like you're saying jacau i'm not going to promote the token for 250 000 no but you could buy an ad and everybody will know it's an ad

SPEAKER_504: and then they can make their own call i mean i'll take 750 maybe but i'm not done for 250. we all got

SPEAKER_64: it we all got it we all got a number i'm not we got a number here's the thing molly let me let me just

SPEAKER_11: say this one more time here's the thing let me ask you a provocative question if we had controls over

SPEAKER_62: the algorithm 100 user controlled and maybe even default off let's make it even like the most aggressive case algorithms are default off you have to turn them on you have to read the disclaimer and then you get to set them however you like this would assuage much of your uh concern correct yeah me too okay now what if one of the choices was any user could promote their own version of the algorithm you could have molly's version jason's version whatever nick's version producer nick's

SPEAKER_44: version and you know i could borrow yours just like the block list where i could borrow your block

SPEAKER_512: list on twitter we're talking about last week yep that would be cool too right yes okay where are you

Jason Calacanis: going with this exactly exactly because pretty soon they're gonna make the most provocative one and

SPEAKER_01: get paid the most for it the problem is incentives 100 so now let's say i am i don't know bad actor yeah uh or let's say i'm like i don't know uh grifter i'm alex jones perfect example and i say i'm

SPEAKER_40: going to publish the alex jones conspiracy theory scumbag algorithm yeah and you can plug it in and your internet experience is through the lens of that disgusting grifting piece of garbage are you okay

SPEAKER_23: with that disgusting human making an algorithm that young people can then click into

SPEAKER_07: i mean then i have to be okay with that yes yes okay you know like it's gonna i think that's intellectually people are going to choose it and i cannot say i'm in favor of speech and say i'm

SPEAKER_331: against that no a hundred percent but should youtube be able to block it okay does youtube have to host

SPEAKER_07: it or not of section 230 if it is illegal they have to take it down okay so i mean the illegal

SPEAKER_147: then could be a partner program like the the ability to promote your algorithm could be part of a

SPEAKER_62: partner program like apps so if they were treated like apps you would have to get approval from the app store so i think they should be a the algorithm you should anybody should be able to make one but you have to go through an approval process you put into your approval process like let's do some combination of like women hating you know uh incel isis extremism and then i want to publish that as

SPEAKER_256: like i don't know empowering young men right no right then it would probably get hard no for self-harm algorithm and then oh yeah like wow that's the thing is like one right like because then moderation

Jason Calacanis: will still exist in many of the same ways it does now and then the question is of incentives like the thing that people don't understand about disinformation is that the incentive at the end of the day for to do it is money it makes everybody money it's like kim kardashian crypto

SPEAKER_13: she doesn't care about crypto she cares about 250. exactly that's why youtube is promoting me stuff that i do not want to see when i'm just trying to do freaking yoga and that's why kim kardashian is promoting this crypto that she doesn't give a crap about and that's why alex jones is saying all the stuff that he's saying and everybody's getting more and more extreme because they get

SPEAKER_23: grifter paid for it wasn't he did they say he made like 10 million dollars one day selling his prepper meals or whatever 800 000 but yeah in a day 800 000 a day oh 10 million a month

SPEAKER_25: maybe was the number and i was like yeah what how yep how is that oh right he's getting like huge

SPEAKER_141: audience by spewing this grossness and see i love that we're having this conversation because that's why the free that's why free speech as a blanket conversation as a blanket idea is totally misleading stop the grip is not about that it's about stopping the grift yeah just stop the grift that's that's

SPEAKER_62: what this is about this is why i think not de-platforming but demonetizing is youtube's best weapon yes and i think if you add if you take away de-platforming and you just get rid of your ability to trend just de-promote and yeah so de-promote and demonetize those two things would be great i think for dealing with this and then if people don't like it if you're alex jones and you don't like it okay go to rumble or whoever else wants to host your you know particular yeah form of content

SPEAKER_17: and horribleness all right everybody this has been an amazing episode i i think we accomplished some

SPEAKER_548: things i hope great story a little better it was great story arc today i think i feel positive about

SPEAKER_91: the world i think i felt positive about the world i think we're going to solve so many problems that

SPEAKER_40: all this like hand wringing and stuff we're trying to get through is going to be in the arc of history considered de minimis not important or tiny in comparison to the gains we make in ai robotics abundance energy sustainability all that great stuff is going to be so great that we will look

SPEAKER_187: in the arc of history and say like yeah we didn't have to worry about that other stuff so much it's

SPEAKER_53: great that we did but just so many good things i think good things can just outshine the bad stuff

Jason Calacanis: so incredibly this is an excellent argument for taking a week off twitter let's do it let's do it

SPEAKER_141: one week without twitter oh my god that would be like a really a week without twitter and then just to see what we end up putting on the show oh god be so fascinating i i think i might go through

SPEAKER_553: withdrawal syndromes if i gave up twitter for a week literally i was sitting there yesterday i was

Jason Calacanis: like i'm going to spend three uninterrupted hours on this one project i'm on it i'm doing it and

SPEAKER_03: literally like 42 minutes in i felt myself just like my hand just creeping over toward the phone i was

SPEAKER_557: like let me do i just need to see what's happening i just it was like a physical urge it is a

SPEAKER_36: physical ease off twitter we could just we could just lower the number of hours increasingly leaving

SPEAKER_44: my phone in a draw going have dinner with my kids or watch the she hulk thing whatever we're doing play tennis just i sometimes i put it into airplane mode and put it in the draw or i put it in my jacket pocket zip the jack pocket shut and just just try to create a little bit of space between me and the phone all right everybody it's been a great episode we'll see you tomorrow tuesday bye