SPEAKER_01: is there like a chance that like tether which is used for according to 60 minutes and and congress and all those hearings used for really dark stuff in the world terrorists uh human traffickers allegedly uh are using it or maybe confirmed and they've been banned only states like is that going

SPEAKER_02: to become a legit thing yeah i think it will i mean i don't and just to you know back up yeah yes tether has been used for those i'm sure has been used for crimes sure so is you know united

SPEAKER_03: states dollars in briefcases of course yeah by a much larger margin if we were to look at it that historically is correct because tether hasn't existed but today like the average criminal

SPEAKER_09: cryptocurrency is being used for between 40 and 50 billion dollars of illicit transactions per year that would be a magnitude less than us dollars this week in startups is brought to you by hubspot

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SPEAKER_15: oracle.com twist all right everybody welcome back to this week in startups very exciting show today we've got an office hours at the end with one of our founders but we're very lucky to have with us again of course alex wilhelm you know him from tech crunch and cautious optimism his sub stack and lon harris is here original twist uh co-host and super lucky to have one of my oldest dearest friends from web 1.0 in the 90s mark jeffrey when i would go to la and i was broke doing my magazine mark let me sleep quite literally on his couch a very famous couch in fact in the history of entrepreneurship

SPEAKER_02: welcome to the program mark it is the excalibur of couches so yeah travis actually slept on that

SPEAKER_15: couch a few times okay travis from uber travis kalanick myself mark had an apartment you know which when we were in our 20s was a big deal in la we would go to la yeah hey crash on mark's couch the

SPEAKER_18: history of silicon beach here silicon beach yes people don't know i had digital coast reporter and

SPEAKER_15: silicon alley reporter had two different magazines at times print magazines and i would do digital coast events and silicon alley events so i took the two cities that were in silicon valley and

SPEAKER_00: featured the startups there was an interesting model mark i wanted to have you on today because you're down the crypto rabbit hole but you are a crypto realist you actually look for crypto projects that have some reality to them and you're here in town in austin because

SPEAKER_01: there's something going on with a very specific crypto project so maybe you could just tell us what

SPEAKER_02: that is yeah so i'm here in town for a crypto project called bit tensor uh they had their first big event now bit tensor is bitcoin meets ai and uh tau is the coin and there's 21 million tau coins only of which like 8 million a bit admitted so far but that's the exact same as bitcoin yes that is

SPEAKER_01: correct does it use the same open source project or do they just thought that would be like a

SPEAKER_02: clever thing to do they thought that the the bitcoin ethos was the right one to adopt so it draws very heavily it's very heavily inspired by bitcoin got it okay so they're disciples of bitcoin yes they're

SPEAKER_01: doing 21 tokens or coins 21 million but yes 21 million what do they call them tokens coins coins

SPEAKER_02: coins got it sure okay what is the purpose of the project so the purpose is to build an incentivization network mostly for ai but not necessarily totally for ai when you say a network you mean a network of computers and cpu gpus yes i do i do so uh so what did bitcoin do really well right like why did it succeed well uh satoshi started off saying i want to create kind of this alternative gold and i want to be able to move it around the world so i have to also create this alternative universe swift system right so how do i do that and what he decided to do was he decided to um incentivize people out there to donate electricity and gpu they didn't pay them cpu oh no gpu yeah it was gpu later cpu in the beginning got it so you could mind you know on your home computer or in the early days not right very didn't work too well so later on no um but this this whole idea of of you know look i'm not going to pay you we're not going to make a company i'm just going to give you bitcoin coins that that are generated by the network with every block um this is for solving a math equation correct well yeah and so for finding the hash of the previous block which i'm not going to get into the technical explanation of that but bottom line it boils down to guessing the number of gumballs in a jar

SPEAKER_37: right that's really you know it was really in a way it was busy work it's busy work right it's trying to force your cpu to peg up and to prove that it has the computing power that it says that

SPEAKER_27: it has right and for people who don't know with bitcoin the reason they created that was so that

SPEAKER_00: you would have a network of computers that essentially act like the swift network like a banking network so the need was to build infrastructure and rails to move money around and to make sure you were sending it to the right person therefore we'll just have you sit here and you know solve this how many gumballs in the jar yeah which also forces you to have a computer on the network with power yes and i think most people don't understand the intent of satoshi i haven't told anybody my intent when i did it so yes

SPEAKER_02: so basically satoshi proved the point so what was the end result of this right in aggregate satoshi created the world's largest supercomputer by several orders of magnitude even ai gpu you know in aggregate is is not going to catch up to the bitcoin network's computing power for at least five years if you know if they if all the chips that are created go to ai that still won't catch up to bitcoin for a very long time so bitcoin succeeded at creating this this this incredible network through these incentives so bit tensor looked at that and said that's a really interesting dynamic how can we harness that to do two things one let's do something useful with that gpu instead of guessing the gumballs in a jar that's dumb you know i don't want to belittle bitcoin because it's very useful for security but as an activity it's very dumb that has been the criticism hey we're burning a bunch of

SPEAKER_00: electricity we're putting up all these gpus but conversely it does create a global stable network so okay we could debate it but actually i think it was worth it yes bit tensor is the open source project to replicate this tau is the coin yes tau is the coin that you essentially earn by putting gpus on the network and then giving them primarily to people who are looking for a distributed computer network

SPEAKER_49: a distributed computer network to run ai jobs on sort of yeah yeah so so you're right up right up to

SPEAKER_23: the end you're right okay great so yes i'm trying i'm recapping this for our audience because sometimes

SPEAKER_00: yes i know crypto people no no it's not that they probably they start you know on the um in the red zone they're on like the 20 yard line and i think people can't keep up with it so i think we've set the stage here really nicely who are the people behind the bit tensor project are there notable individuals

SPEAKER_56: who created this and when was it created yeah so it's um i think it's about four years old um maybe

SPEAKER_02: maybe as much you know it's about four years old we don't we do know the the founders we do know the people who it's a team of like five or six uh engineer people uh all over the world um i just met with one of them uh this past you know at the at the conference and then uh yesterday we we spent like three or four hours i was clarifying a bunch of stuff that i didn't understand about the the innards they are doxxed so it's not like they're anonymous like satoshi got it okay so bit tensors the project

SPEAKER_00: tau is the coin the network instead of doing gumball math is doing here is a competitor to aws

SPEAKER_02: they're doing many things at once so there's actually under the under the it's an incentivization network primarily used to incentivize the creation of great ai not only that but mostly that at the moment and beneath that are a hundred projects and each of them are mostly ai but not all of them are ai got it right and we can have a look at those projects if you'd like absolutely so

SPEAKER_00: this platform then allows you in a way to plug in your project as an individual with server capacity so if i happen to be running i don't know squarespace and i have a bunch of servers that i stood up for whatever reason i wasn't using aws i could say hey you know what i'm going to allocate a couple of these h 100s whatever to the tau to the bit tensor network to earn tau yes and then other people could come in and say yeah i need some compute and the goal would be it's cheaper faster or better or just

SPEAKER_02: cheaper yeah so it's then it's using aw so yeah so let's talk about your specific example that you just gave is are like two of the of the biggest subnets in oh okay i just got it yeah yeah so you you got it right okay um so if you go to if you show backprop so i said there was a there's there's a hundred um uh subnets in in the bit tensor universe each one each one of the subnets has its own coin inside you know that that uh is also part of the the bit tensor network sort of like ethereum right now ethereum has other coins inside of it the same so if we're looking at this just we'll pause it for

SPEAKER_00: a second here these are the subnets so the network bit tensor the subnets the number one one is called shoots as in shoots and ladders it's been around for 129 days it has a market cap itself of 89 million the price of their coin is 98 their emissions are 16 um what does say shoots do because i see there there's a github logo there's a a network logo i don't know what that means what is what does this

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SPEAKER_02: the uh so shoots does exactly what you were just describing so uh they're they're a decentralized network of of compute for ai ah so if you want to run d you want to run deep seek you want to run mistral yeah serverless here we go great i'm watching him i got it so all of these so basically you just come here normally you'd go to aws right and you've rent uh some instances and then you would load up your ai this actually you know the the shoots will allow you to just go there click a button

SPEAKER_81: pay a little bit of tau and start running your instance and it's about 85 percent less than what it

SPEAKER_00: costs on aws got it so if you were running an ai job and you didn't need the stability corporate five nines of say aws where you know at a company maybe you have to use aws because nobody gets fired for using aws azure oracle whatever you could use this network that nobody owns and that is an open source distributed project yes how stable is it uh very stable i mean it's people people are very happy

SPEAKER_02: with it people are people think it's better not only cheaper but there are some benchmarks where it's actually quite a bit better than what you're you're seeing out of aws and typically they have the models up and running when deep seek came out with their latest model it was up and running on shoots before it was up and running on any anywhere else and yeah so let's pull up the shoots website

SPEAKER_00: again i just want to give them a shout out here and make sure i understand it we're looking at the shoots website it's basically a distributed peer-to-peer subnet that competes with other cloud computing resources out there you can just basically as a developer deploy to it and then i pay them in tau yes so instead of me putting my credit card on file with my cloud computing company they're gonna

SPEAKER_02: have that later but right now yes they you pay in tau i pay them in tau targon also targon is the the other one that does the other network that does the other subnet that does the same thing as shoots

SPEAKER_94: great um so let's pull up that top level of all the projects again alex if you don't mind we'll leave that up so there's another one uh called targon targon and they're very uh i think they're a

SPEAKER_37: little bit further along in terms of having the fiat rails up and running i see their number three

SPEAKER_01: here with a 44 million dollar market cap yes correct um and so we can load their page and we would see it and these just look like any other hosting company in the world but instead of using

SPEAKER_00: dollars and having an office it's a distributed project but somebody does own targon right there

SPEAKER_02: there is a subnet owner yes so good question so um somebody has defined the targon subnet and said i want people to supply gpu to my network to host these ai models right and load them up and you know there are 256 miners that are competing to provide the you know this this whatever the the subnet owner has requested so it is a competition right whoever supplies the most the best depending on how the subnet owner defines the competition um the miners uh the people who are supplying the computers for this decentralized network they earn tau so they're earning emissions from the network so just like bitcoin miners sure earn tau subnet miners in this system who decides who can have a subnet this

SPEAKER_00: is always really interesting to me is governance so let's pause for a second here i think we can all follow along you could start essentially a project aka a company um now would targon also be a company in

SPEAKER_27: a way targon is a company not all of them are some some of them are not companies some of them are

SPEAKER_00: so targon is a company they put this up they are making tau by providing this resource to people who want it cloud computing resources on the network and there are 33 of these projects currently

SPEAKER_02: there's a hundred there's a hundred a hundred is there a limit to the number of projects uh there is not uh so you asked how do you do a subnet yeah governance wise you stake tau anybody can start a

SPEAKER_03: subnet for any reason right so you stake you stake tau you define your subnet define what staking

SPEAKER_27: tau means you know when somebody's not in crypto the term stake means you buy it or you put it up for

SPEAKER_02: people to earn you basically you you you put it in a suspended state so it's like an escrow right so you take your towel you have to have a certain amount of it you you give it to the chain the chain is a process for doing this the chain locks it up it says okay great i've got it and you can't have it back uh until you you know unless there's some time in the future where you want to you know get rid of yourself that and i'm not sure the process is for that got it but you can get it so

SPEAKER_27: they're asking you to make a commitment yes in tau what's the commitment level ballpark is it ten

SPEAKER_02: thousand dollars is it a million dollars to join the network it's 400 tau right now got it and that and and tau is worth about 377 or so dollars got it per coin at the moment so maybe it's a hundred

SPEAKER_62: grand and change okay so we're in the very early days of this project yeah what's like the second

SPEAKER_00: most interesting use case you have obviously ai clouds what else is in there what else do you got yes

SPEAKER_02: there's ready ai which is a subnet version of scale.ai 11 billion dollar company uh what scale did was they um they basically created annotated data you know when you feed data to an ai it's better if it's giving context and it's annotated in some way by humans right but you have to do that at scale it takes a lot of humans so scale.ai had a lot of humans around the world paying them to annotate data which was then sold to ai companies to train their ais yes we know this company i think

SPEAKER_23: actually alex is scale ai in our twist 500 it absolutely is we talked about it at some point

SPEAKER_00: yeah so annotating data doing reinforcement learning this is something google was doing a long time ago you may have heard of um what's the amazon project mechanical turk mechanical turk was another project where they would say hey we're going to show you an image tag it with three things and you be like okay that is a bottle with orange liquid in it with a you know red cap and it's orange juice and it's 190 calories whatever and in the background is a plastic cup and an iphone and then they would have somebody else do the same task look for which tags they got in common and then that would be how google would know that there's a smiling face in an image it wasn't that they were reading the image for a smiling face it was that it was tagged then the ai and the machine learning learned what a smile is versus a frown okay we all know that history so there created a tau instance for people to participate in the tagging and learning so i guess i could go in there as an individual with no job but more time

SPEAKER_01: on my hand or maybe i'm in manila or a developing country uh frontier market and i could just get jobs

SPEAKER_02: on the town network yes uh but there's also but what ready ai is focused on is actually having ai do the the tagging for training the data for it got it okay so even better yeah and and um you know the ceo is is in his cv is amazing these are very serious people who are building subnets got it um

SPEAKER_37: the guy who uh uh who uh built and sold adwords to google is part of ready ai yeah so again yes elbas

SPEAKER_00: yeah gil elbaus has been on the program here we know this may or may not be the next bitcoin you by the way have your own podcast about this topic you can maybe tell everybody about

SPEAKER_02: your podcast if they want to learn more and yeah sure uh my podcast is called hash rate and i i've done about 110 episodes today um it's about crypto it's about crypto but i added ai things in here and there got it um i've done about 30 episodes on bit tensor and tau wow which has spanned over the last you know year year and a half as i became more and more interested in this um you know i've been looking for you know what is the next big thing right like what's going to be the next ethereum um you know next solana and i looked at a lot of things that i you know i did a lot of deep dives that went nowhere right or i came up and said i'm not sure this is the first thing that i've seen since ethereum where i feel like i'm seeing you know the third great coin right alongside bitcoin and ethereum so

SPEAKER_26: i got it yeah that's my opinion and you're an investor in crypto projects early in bitcoin you

SPEAKER_03: first bought bitcoin when it was at what dollar amount um it was 250 when i bought my first 250

SPEAKER_96: thousand it was on mount gox you're stuck yeah 250 250 okay wow incredible uh all right alex any

SPEAKER_134: questions from you for mark about this all right founders let's talk about your website huh it might be a little bit of a sensitive subject you might be a little embarrassed about it let's fix that right

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SPEAKER_140: twist absolutely well first of all jason gail elbaz is the founder of common crawl not open crawl

SPEAKER_141: common uh but you were you were very very close there my question is is pretty simple i understand the major concept here you know crypto attracts compute ai needs compute put the two together huzzah i'm curious why there are sub tokens that are more than just tau so when we look at the market cap of these projects it seems that you said they had different tokens to themselves why complicate the

SPEAKER_142: overall economics here and not just stay true to just the tau token which is capped and so forth

SPEAKER_02: yeah good great question um the reason why is because um it's basically to figure out where the emissions should be directed so it's to create a market and competition between the subnets so which projects because before there was a lot of there were some subnets that were just extractive right they were just creating subnets to collect tau but not really contributing much to the network right um this forces a marketplace to uh when you buy that when you buy the subnet tokens the market cap of the of the subnet goes up which determines how much how much emissions they get how much of the tau emissions they get correct so so shoots is has the biggest market cap so they get the lion's share

SPEAKER_80: of the tau emissions from the chain it's 17 at the moment that's what that number meant so the market

SPEAKER_141: cap on a per subnet basis is effectively a voting mechanism to say hey this product is the most useful and therefore it should get the largest piece of the next tau emission correct because the tau

SPEAKER_02: emissions are a subsidy for you know all these projects right why can shoots uh give you 85 savings

SPEAKER_59: because it's being subsidized by all the talent is being kicked off by the chain mark can i tell

SPEAKER_149: you what i think about that i think it's too i think it's too clever by half i think there's got

SPEAKER_141: to be a simpler way to hand out the towel than to have 85 or i guess 100 different sub sub economies to this but i have to say i think it's a pretty cool idea and i'm i i think i if i was a startup

SPEAKER_142: jason and i could get 85 cheaper compute yeah it'd be hard to not look at that in the eye and go well i'm going to try it because if i could save you know that much of my total cloud bill i mean i'm

David Friedberg: going to take the other side of it i think it's like it is too clever in the same way the united

SPEAKER_00: states of america was too clever people are like what are you doing why do all these like states have these state rights and how are you going to divvy up rights between the states and you know it turns out like sometimes if you do things that are not efficient and then you gain some other other qualities like resilience or competition and so one of the great things about the united states is like we have different taxes in each state like that's actually kind of interesting or we have different rights like gosh i don't want to bring up reproductive rights but or gun rights but like people can pick their state based on hey maybe i prefer this level of freedom or this level of control or this dystopian thing or you know and everybody's definition is different it's a very fascinating project and uh we're going to keep our eye on it we have some other things oh lot any

SPEAKER_09: questions for mark about the project that we've been talking about it's a little over it's a little over my head but i guess the the one thing i am curious about is are do you guys see this as a rival to bitcoin like ultimately we want everybody to use tau as their store of value not bitcoin or is this like they're both going to exist long term and it's just which which project you find more intriguing

SPEAKER_81: that's a very interesting and very debatable question uh yeah so so barry silbert uh right

SPEAKER_37: who is who became a billionaire uh investing very early in bitcoin after hearing about it on on this

SPEAKER_164: show the famous episode i did in 2011 2011 yeah about bitcoin yeah so should have backed up the truck

SPEAKER_02: yeah he is now as all in as he was on that back then he is equally all in on bitensor now and he has a several companies one of which is yuma uh which is basically a bit tensor y combinator he's basically you know firing these things up and sending them out like companies right so and he has said several times that he thinks that bit tensor may become more valuable than bitcoin not because there's anything wrong with bitcoin right but because bit tensor has bitcoin-like qualities and it's extremely useful

SPEAKER_00: for real things well this has always been my problem with crypto in general you know you and i have talked about this mark many times personally where you know in the early days of crypto i met with a hundred projects and we actually attract it and in 95 96 97 of them it was unqualified people yeah building outlandish things with spelling errors in their white papers and i was like well i'm going to do that i'm going to compare this to like the startups i'm seeing in silicon valley and abroad and everywhere else and they just didn't make any sense and there were two or three i was like these are really smart guys there's less typos and they're actually making something that might work but like this idea that a decentralized uber or a decentralized google or a decentralized twitter is going to or decentralized facebook is going to beat all those things i was like that's not possible or not probable but probably more not possible because if you're going to stay on somebody's couch like you probably want a company with a board and insurance to be responsible for that right like yeah that's like way too high stakes for people to want to use and listen maybe i'll turn out to be wrong but what i like about this project you've identified is it seems like there's real entrepreneurs there which is great and it seems like they're building actual products and services with utility from in some cases companies that exist in the real world that have a board of directors that have a domiciled location and that was always the the the red screaming red flags in crypto this company's not domiciled anywhere there's some non-profit foundation in panama but most of that but i mean yes and i

SPEAKER_02: totally agree what you're saying yeah the flip side of that is is that that environment was created by gary gensler who forced these companies out of the united states yes there was no other way to operate

SPEAKER_03: sure right so but operating in the shadows also gave them the advantage of just absconding with the money and that is also true there's a lot of bad stuff i mean i'm not denying that so what do you

SPEAKER_00: think now about what trump has done so far with crypto you know when you saw the meme coin uh stuff

SPEAKER_62: like that obviously seemed like they were writing sec code around you know the trump mean coin to kind of maybe you know not to basically retroactively give trump a pass am i right about that one i i don't i

SPEAKER_02: actually disagree with you on that okay but i do agree with you that what trump did with his meme coin was crass it was it was it was not something that we in crypto liked all of our stomachs all fell because we because we don't like the the ones of us who have been in this for a long time and who believe in in it you know we love ethereum we love defy yeah the centralized finance um we love bitcoin we think this world should exist we think gary gansley should have been so um predatory on the environment and we fought hard right and and and suffered for a long time in some cases right some some people went to jail so it felt like it's a griff it yes and when trump did did what he did we all just are it just felt like a gut punch it didn't feel good at all it felt like betrayal right it didn't feel good

SPEAKER_00: what about stable coins there's like a stable coin act this is all going very low under the radar while we talk about sending people to see cot or the tariff war it seems like howard lutnik's got a deep relationship with tether or cantor fitzgerald does and there's this new stable coin act coming out is there like a chance that like tether which is used for according to 60 minutes and and congress

SPEAKER_01: and all those hearings used for really dark stuff in the world terrorists uh human traffickers allegedly uh are using it or maybe confirmed and they've been banned only states like is that going

SPEAKER_02: to become a legit thing yeah i think it will i mean i don't and just to you know back up yeah yes tether has been used for those i'm sure has been used for crimes sure so is you know united states dollars in briefcases right of course yeah uh by a much larger margin right so yeah but you think so

SPEAKER_08: by a much larger margin today do you think people are using if we were to look at it that's that that historically is correct because tether hasn't existed but today like the average criminal yeah i

SPEAKER_02: actually looked at i don't remember the stats offhand but it was it was something like five percent of all cash uh is for illicit uh business okay yeah tether is mostly used for you know to basically store your crypto in a wallet so you don't have to deal with a bank right like with mount gox before tether you had to wire money to japan right right and that took like a week and maybe it got there maybe it didn't yes it was hard and you know with tether you're just like oh blip right tether's

SPEAKER_09: over there now and i could buy the coins by most uh guesses uh cryptocurrency is being used for between 40 and 50 billion dollars of illicit transactions per year that would be a magnitude

SPEAKER_76: less than us dollars everybody it's 2025 and ai is officially everywhere from medicine to self-driving cars if ai hasn't hit your industry yet well you know it's coming fast but ai needs serious computing power so how do you stay competitive without breaking the bank and what if you could cut your cloud bill in half that's right 50 percent well it's time to upgrade to oracle cloud infrastructure or oci as we call it in the industry oci is blazing fast and it's a secure platform designed to handle everything your startup needs including your infrastructure databases apps and of course ai and machine learning and what about all these savings well compared to other cloud providers oci costs 50 less for compute and 80 percent less for networking and that's some serious savings thousands of businesses have already upgraded to oci including vodafone thompson reuters and suno ai who we had in the pod last year so here's your call to action oracle is offering to cut your current cloud bill in half if you move to oci for new u.s customers with a minimum financial commitment but act fast this offer ends march 31st so see if your company qualifies at oracle.com twist that's oracle.com

SPEAKER_134: slash twist what else do we have on the docket today uh i want to stay on the ai training compute

SPEAKER_141: uh front jason there was some big news from meta this week at their first ever llama con which was an event dedicated to their open source ai models they announced that they're going to partner with grok with a q and cerebrus both twist 500 companies to offer essentially their models as a hosted service and when two of our twist 500 companies get name checked at the same time it's pretty exciting both companies are shouting about this they're very proud of it and i think it just goes to show that one meta needs an ai business model jason but also too that it's not all going to pool in nvidia's pockets long term now i don't know how this will stack up against what they're working on with bit tensor but certainly there are a lot of people out there who want traditional ai inference compute and so it's cool to see two companies that are still private still smaller get tapped and i do

SPEAKER_00: think this should help service go public jason okay this is super interesting obviously grok g-r-o-q is not grok from elon it's grok from chamath and it's tensor chips these are inference chips so meta does not currently have a cloud computing offering for founders right they um make their own obviously data centers but they're not in competition with aws and if what i'm hearing is correct here meta is saying we're going to take llama their open source project and they're going to have it hosted

SPEAKER_01: um with compute from grok and cerebrus is cerebrus a data center company or a chip company cerebrus is a

SPEAKER_142: chip company they are big with g42 and they filed to go public but remember their ipo was so single

SPEAKER_01: company revenue that it was a little dicey so now if that does happen does this mean is the actual

SPEAKER_201: story here that meta is going to compete with aws to a degree i mean you can host llama models around you know you can run llama i think on aws or on azure or gcp but now they're going to offer their

SPEAKER_142: own kind of homegrown solution if you will with these partners so meta is now in a way competing with

SPEAKER_23: everyone else yes in cloud computing it's a slice of cloud computing so then if they do just that

SPEAKER_00: slice they're probably going to be obligated to offer some storage or some transit this could be the start of them creating an aws competitor that's actually the real news here is this could be their wedge now they have a great excuse mark i think it's just say well we we want to have the freshest best version of llama available because we want the project to win maybe they offer it a discount maybe they offer it as a loss they could price dump this what do you think here mark what what alex

SPEAKER_201: what sorry i don't think so i doubt the disagreement but then probably not jason because the information

SPEAKER_141: reported that meta had actually reached out to alphabet and microsoft should i get them to subsidize the money they were putting into llama so i doubt they can actually take more of a loss here

SPEAKER_142: i think this is a way to recoup some of their investment not to further subsidize their market

SPEAKER_96: share well i mean if you want your model to win and you've got tons of cash laying around you could

SPEAKER_08: buy back your stock you could build infrastructure and take a loss on it and they could lose i mean

SPEAKER_93: they're losing what 10 billion a year on vr yeah on vr i mean they could lose 20 billion a year on this

SPEAKER_00: make it free the big loser here mark might be open ai what if this is available for less than open ai charges for their compute what are your thoughts here of meta's open source sort of strategy and

SPEAKER_06: standing up hosted compute yeah i mean this is exactly what shoots and targon do right so they take

SPEAKER_02: these open source models and stand them up and make them available for quite a bit less than you can get on aws yeah so you know i think the overall trend is that ai um goes towards zero in terms of cost right like wow and i i think that through various uh you know through various uh mechanisms and various

SPEAKER_06: uh interacting market forces um some of them from bit tensor some of them from you know the open source

SPEAKER_80: community which is very dangerous for open ai right like they're they're incinerating hundreds of

SPEAKER_37: billions a year yeah right so how how is that sustainable in the face of single digit billions a year sorry single digit single digit the company's worth hundreds of billions yeah let's go clean up

SPEAKER_00: um all right let's keep moving here i want to talk a little bit about how much code is being written by ai alex uh there's some news from cursor and light run and from sundar and from satya yeah on exactly how much code is being written by ai now this this is a trend that i think we saw coming but maybe not at the velocity it's coming i don't know cue it up here so i'm very

SPEAKER_142: impressed by a couple of numbers so during google's earnings report alphabets earnings report alphabets

SPEAKER_141: ceo sundar peshai said that right now over 30 percent of code that is committed from the company now comes from an ai source also at llama con satya nadella ceo of microsoft said that right now 20 to 30 percent of the code that the company puts out is written by ai now this is pretty big news i think no one thought we'd get here this fast but cursor is very very proud of how much of it's uh how much of how much code it's putting out so the ceo um said over on x that cursor today writes about a billion lines of accepted code per day and he put that up against a global number of several billion lines per day people were a little skeptical of that figure but it just goes to show how fast this is moving jason i think once we see companies like light run which we talked about i think on monday really kind of turn the ai snake back on its own tail and begin to have ai improve ai generated code

SPEAKER_142: we're going to get to 80 90 within probably 18 months yeah this is pretty amazing and i think it's

SPEAKER_00: going to be great for humanity because the bottleneck for startups has been a moving target over time when startups and pc revolution server revolution there were hardware constraints we had an incredible constraint of the memory of the computer we had constraints of the storage of the computer you know 15 floppy disks to run it that everything was too slow it was too hard to even load up a word processor you know if you saved a large file it was even like the quality of the file get corrupted like we had really crazy issues then we went to another phase where the bandwidth was the issue hey how do we move this stuff around then it became standing up servers so if you were starting a company in the late 90s in the web 1.0 era when mark and i started you had to raise three four five million you had to take 18 months 24 months to build your product and stand up your data center now you can build your startup in three weeks use somebody else's data center so what has been the blocker the last 10 years last 20 years the blocker has been developers i can't find a developer was what we heard for the last 10 years from founders i think what we're going to hear now is because you don't need five developers to get your project out the door you need one and that one is getting 30 faster a year maybe your startup ultimately instead of needing 30 developers needs five maybe in order to

SPEAKER_01: start you need one developer not five right you know like this is a magnitude change and i think

SPEAKER_96: it's going to mean we're going to make every piece of software that hasn't been made yet we'll get made

SPEAKER_222: what else we got on the docket i want to run something by you jason there's a venture capitalist charles

SPEAKER_141: hudson from precursor he's great yeah everyone knows charles he did a post over on substack um but he says that he's noticed that the combination of ai generated cold outreach to vcs is pushing people back towards human driven warm intros and referrals this was very interesting to me i can't imagine handing off my vc outreach to ai but i'm curious how founders can take advantage of this to win

SPEAKER_00: more in 2025 i've always believed it's a numbers game you know in terms of raising capital especially at the early days because you are selling the promise right but even though it's a numbers game because there's so many we just talked about there's 400 for funds formed a year so there's 1200 funds active at any one point in time maybe 1500 because they tend to have a four-year life cycle of primary investing so let's say there's 1500 firm funds they probably have six people working at each you know you're getting to five to ten thousand active investors with check writing ability somewhere in that group are ten percent of them will want to invest in your company five percent of them it's a numbers game in that if it's if it was ten percent you might be talking about 500 qualified targets a thousand qualified targets then you have to look at okay they do invest in my vertical i'm in marketplaces i'm in military okay of those which ones invest at my stage seed rounds precede series a series b now you have to parse that list and then you have to start a real sales process of going to them the problem is because of databases like crunchbase and other ones that exist sometimes the founder will get overzealous and they will send too many emails and that upsets people and that's where you get vcs complaining like i am not doing medical devices i don't invest in pizzerias so what you want to do is make a nice big list and then you want to really understand on that list have they invested in companies adjacent to yours do they only invest in certain regions so it is a numbers game but you have to also curate that number so it's very easy to get to a list of i would say you should have you know in your seed round there should be probably at the top level 200 firms that you've identified would actually invest in your company and then you should see of those 200 how many can you get a warm intro to and then how many do you need to do a cold intro to and then you

SPEAKER_01: should be very thoughtful when you send that email instead of trying to do it as quick as possible go slow which is if you were to meet somebody at a party you know and you were a a real estate broker you wouldn't be like are you selling your home or buying a new home anytime soon you'd be like oh where do your kids go to school oh yeah no i'm over here and you kind of warm up the lead yeah

SPEAKER_09: so you want to warm up the leads we have a we have a great video from alexis ohanian about the perfect cold email here we go if you want to just throw to that real quick uh it's on the from the feed section uh this was shared a few weeks ago i've had in the docket in case we ever got to talk about it this is such a great example it's only one minute of video and i feel like he lays out

SPEAKER_13: exactly how to write the best cold email you've ever heard tips for cold emailing i love a good

SPEAKER_232: cold email that is to the point it is no longer than like three or four sentences it very clearly up front states who you are and why you're real basically what value you have to provide to the person that you're reaching out to and then makes a very specific request and says thanks that's it i mean up front you want to demonstrate value why am i going to spend another 30 seconds reading this email and then immediately follow up with the request and ideally be offering first instead of asking but if you are asking for something first there better be a good why the best cold emails are deeply deeply empathetic to the person you're emailing you've taken the time to understand who they are what they're about what they like one of the easiest ways to mess it up is by not doing that work getting their name wrong putting 20 paragraphs into an email keep it tight demonstrate value up front make your clear ass that's it good luck good exercise get used for the rejection too yeah he's he's

SPEAKER_00: nailing it there you got to be you know concise to the point make sure you don't spell the person's name wrong yeah i always tell people like gosh if you want it's so easy with a vc who is publicly active to just say i saw you on this week in startups or you you had this tweet it really resonated with me because i'm building something inspired by that tweet boom and then you're all of a sudden you've created some commonality some some common ground and then you get to the ask we're raising our seed round i also think a chart if you have i like leading with what's strong so a chart is the strongest thing in the world for vcs because we like up and to the right we like things that are going to grow so we've been we've had our product in market for seven weeks we've grown on average 18 week over week we're doubling every three to four weeks and you know here's a link to our app and here's a link to our deck would love to um if you're interested would love to do a quick follow-up meeting i always added something extra which was happy to meet uh anytime i know you're in palo alto anytime you know saturday sunday 7 a.m to midnight anytime i can meet you for 15 minutes happy to go where you are so you're actually even putting out there like you're a dogged rabid person who will meet anytime anywhere if you want to do an introductory call and uh yeah i also love sometimes people ask me a question what do you think of this design yeah um that kind of like oh okay yeah maybe i'll give you actually some feedback go ahead mark there's something that

SPEAKER_02: you used to say uh at mahalo a lot that i that really made me focus a lot more on this and you know the video talks about clarity right getting getting to the point yeah right you used to say to

SPEAKER_37: people you know answer the question you'd ask someone a question they wouldn't answer the question they'd like give you 50 paragraphs literally that's my life like all the content but i always want to give you content i never really thought about how often people don't answer the question and how rare clarity is and you kind of you know tuned my brain to that a lot more than it had been all right uh we

SPEAKER_214: have an office hours we're going to get you our office hours now let's do it we are okay all right

SPEAKER_141: so the company in question is layer next the co-founder and ceo is budika madam now layer next if you don't know is taking the world of business intelligence to the next level using ai to get all that structured and unstructured corporate data that way you can figure out what to do next jason

SPEAKER_201: and not just look entirely in the rear view mirror let's talk to layer next all right how are you sir

SPEAKER_225: nice to see you how are we doing tell us what's going on with layer next what what's challenging

SPEAKER_250: what are the wins what are the fails layer next is the strategic business intelligence platform and we are helping cfo to generate strategies to grow their business or increase efficiencies the challenge is right now with the business onboarding because every customer has a different data set we are especially going for this mid-market companies in the manufacturing and transportation and logistics the problem is their data is not ai ready so we have to do a lot of upfront work in order to make our system work with their data that's the challenge so you have ai

SPEAKER_00: that goes in looks at a cfo's data from their company and then gives them some strategic intelligence an example of intelligence or strategy that you've given to a cfo what would you say is the best example of a wow moment a cfo had when you deployed layer next at their company and against their data

SPEAKER_252: sets what was the biggest wow moment so we had a one customer he want to understand whether we want to

SPEAKER_250: hire more sales people or not okay yeah so then we analyzed how much uh sales people they have today how much sales they're making today and also the cash flow so then ai generating strategies if you add the one sales agent this could be the revenue then how much is your uh margin would be those are

SPEAKER_00: well yeah so this is a great idea but it's hard and so some ideas are hard what's hard about this idea well what one cfo wants to solve uh might be very different than another cfo if you don't have sales people well and you have retailers you have a different task to do here and as you mentioned

SPEAKER_01: uh there's different stages some companies don't have a cfo then companies have an outsource cfo then you hire your first cfo then you have a public market cfo you know you you have a real range of different stages of companies you have different goals and then also you're trying to tell them things actionable items that maybe they're not even aware so that would be like doing a blood test with superpower and it comes back to you and says hey uh and you're doing superpower uh getting your blood drawn so you just signed up maybe they say to you oh you're vitamin d now you would never say to them i need to take a vitamin d test so they take all the tests so this business you probably do any vitamin d because you're not outside enough this is your problem you you have disparate systems and you have insights you can give them that they may not even know they need so the the it's the value of this product is hard for them to know and so what you probably have to do is figure out what is the most

SPEAKER_00: which group of cfos are going to have the most wow moments and get the most value from your product if it's people with sales teams you'll know that because salesforce exists hubspot exists if it's people with retailers maybe they use sap who knows maybe they use netsuite so i think you have to plan to flag early on define an ideal customer profile narrow the focus down to hey you know this product snowflake netsuite is the industry standard these people have money to spend and we can help them so ikigai do you know that ikigai yeah pull up the ikigai chart i'm going to show you something that might blow your mind ikigai have you heard of this before i don't have no idea okay ikigai is a japanese philosophy what are you good at what does the world need what are people willing to pay for it and there's other circles people have made all kinds of different spins on it but somebody's going to pull up the ikigai i got it okay here we go so we'll look at this for a second and i just want you to slow down we're not talking about your startup here we're talking about life so we have what you love okay you love data don't you okay what the world needs analysis of that data to get insights what are you good at you're good at making that software and will people pay for it right somewhere in here is your ikigai of your startup what software the world uses for data it's

SPEAKER_01: going to be hubspot it's going to be netsuite etc um what do they love they love saving money they love making money what are you good at you're good at telling them how to save money how to make money um how to avoid maybe one of your value propositions to how to avoid tax issues in the future or how to save money on taxes it could be all of those things and would people pay for it well there'll be overlapping circles here so ikigai i-k-i-g-a-i is a way for a human being to look at the world

SPEAKER_00: and say what should i do with my life what's my purpose ikigai for startups is a new concept that i'm i'm just debuting here right now for the first time but it came to my mind which is ikigai for startups is who are these customers what do they covet and what can you do with them right so what would you say for that for that company that uh got the wow moment and it provided great value for them do you think they'd be willing to pay for that or is that like a one-time insight or is that a reoccurring

SPEAKER_250: insight i'm curious it's a reoccurring yeah because perfect yeah because you have to monitor the

SPEAKER_00: salespeople sure yeah so you found something what data where was the data held that you were able to make this insight where where did you get the data from they have the sales force they have the

SPEAKER_250: sales force and they pump in the data to the data warehouse every night okay so they have sales forces

SPEAKER_00: where the data resides did you cross-reference it with any other data they have the county system mr it's the legacy account system oh so you had the legacy accounting system do you know what name

SPEAKER_250: of that is it's not quickbooks or something or yeah for us it's the transfer i i guess oracle net to do something perfect data coming direct to the warehouse and we access the data from the warehouse

SPEAKER_00: so while you're figuring out your ideal customer profile you're going to have to figure out how many people have sales force and this accounting thing and maybe start with that group now you have identified a subset maybe in the future you want to go in and take every piece of data from every system and give this magical you know here's how to run your business like it's almost like a shadow ceo a shadow cfo advising people it's like a clone right you've got this like perfect clone that's out there working as an agent 24 hours a day trying to figure this stuff out but maybe we start and say you know what there's enough people with sales teams and sales data uh and customer engagement data that we could just go in and tackle that first so you have a feature you can say to people hey you got salesforce you have over 50 sales people we can really help you figure out how to make decisions in your sales group then you say to the marketing group hey we know your cac we know where you're spending money we can help you spend money more efficiently to then get it into the sales group then you say okay now we're going to work with our accounts and our tax people we can tell you how to save money internationally figuring out your tax status and where to put these sales etc but you start with one then you build the adjacencies does that make sense

SPEAKER_250: sense i think makes sense yeah so we get a lot of custom some people is the early stage of the data journey data maturity journey so we are in the waiting list still so makes sense to me yeah i mean

SPEAKER_00: the the good news also is and most vcs will not say this because they really want you to scale and not build custom software right because custom software is custom and it does it's not repeatable but if you did some client engagements where they needed your help with some servicey kind of stuff and it was customy and it was bespoke if that bespoke um work gets you a lighthouse customer i'm going to say go ahead and do it if that bespoke custom work for them and consulting if they're paying for it and it makes your product better and more scalable for the next customer and you own the ip for that stuff i'm going to say go ahead and do it because this is going to be years of you grinding it out to get this data and normalize it and if you can make a little bit of money along the way to keep the lights on and have to raise less money from vcs that can be good too because you keep more of your equity now a vc would tell you don't do that you know build the platform we'll give you the money we get your equity but it's a way for you to not do it mark you have any thoughts on here and advice but i think you've got enough to go on here you know let's try to define that ideal customer profile and then i want you to also bear hug them did i ever talk to you about the bear hug strategy yeah we we learned

SPEAKER_264: from the uh accelerator program got it okay so just for people who are listening the bear hug strategy

SPEAKER_00: is when you're trying to find these lighthouse customers the one who shine this beacon of light that other customers follow oh you know we got this company um that's got a lot of sales people in it it's uh or it's ibm and ibm uses salesforce and ibm's got this glow or it's kpmg kpmg's got all these sales people all over the world selling you know audits or whatever and you know we now have them as our lighthouse customers so ernst and young and you know other groups might follow their lead um if you can get one of those and then you can embed yourself at their office so they have this problem they got data problems you say hey you know what we want you to be our lighthouse customer you're super upfront with them would it be possible for us to get like a war room a conference room at your office and we just come there five days a week four days a week we work with your team we clean up this data we give you insights and we'll do this consulting arrangement or we'll do it for free but now you're sitting with them and then other opportunities emerge and those other opportunities could inform you like these could be circles you didn't in your ikigai didn't anticipate emerging so i like the

SPEAKER_01: idea of like getting really close to a couple of people who love your product and learning from

SPEAKER_09: them and you'd learn so much being embedded in that way there's things you can't pick up just on a phone call or resume people don't know about themselves and their own business that you'd pick

SPEAKER_00: up being in their face all day if you were canavision or you were the red camera company or one of these it would be the equivalent of saying like i make these incredible cameras uh you're making a movie or a television show can we send a couple of technicians to hang out on set with you yeah and answer any questions you have and you know when you keep dropping the thing because we the handles don't work well and you know they keep slipping out of people's hands we're going to make a grip that doesn't fall out and you know you you gain some incredible knowledge so great job and we wish you

SPEAKER_01: great success thank you too much uh i mean maybe we'll do one reddit rapid response oh okay we got

SPEAKER_09: we got a few of those we got a few of those you were hanging out uh so jason was hanging out on the

SPEAKER_01: r slash anti-work subreddit yes capitalist in the anti-work subreddit yeah

SPEAKER_00: jason do you show all that just like i can imagine you know what i have been we've been working on return to office for our company you know and uh have a certain philosophy extremely high performers can be remote but some jobs need to be in person so we've been slowly working on this getting back to in office and um i guess because i was researching active track which is like uh productivity software and we have to lock all our computers down i started i think the way i stumbled upon anti-work was people were talking about active track in there which is tracking software that you put on your corporate laptop and it watches everything you do watches everything you do but it's it's really for a finance company also to secure your laptop so if somebody downloading the database

SPEAKER_13: sharing it with people who shouldn't be basically like so you know anyway people were talking about

SPEAKER_00: active track on there and i saw this um thread and it just resonated with me so maybe you could queue

SPEAKER_09: up sure the person lon from user electric horsepower they're asking why the big push to return to office uh i get a sense that the majority of domestic employers want everyone to return to office i understand that leases on buildings need to be maximized but is there anything other than money that would make a company have all of its employees come back to the office yeah so i just thought i

SPEAKER_00: would explain to them what are some of the other reasons that people are actually doing this and the why and a little bit of my philosophy so maybe you could just read a little bit of my response if there's typos or things in there please feel free i usually leave my typos in now like grammarly tries to correct my typos i'll clean up egregious ones but i leave a couple of typos in so people

SPEAKER_09: know it's real though it's not ai it's exactly uh so jason wrote i wrote a couple of podcasts all in this week at startups and a venture capital firm launch of out of university over the past year we started a return to work for everyone but ehps extremely high performers who live outside of austin we did it because one we're in a competitive space and being in person makes us faster at everything two energy level intensity and pace is different three after four years of working for home people had lost their intensity the culture had disappeared four after starting to meet with founders in person again it was a huge advantage five on the margin we had 10 to 20 of folks abusing work from home uh which you figured out via active track uh great software for teams of high performers because it exposes folks who are phoning it in or abusing the system uh however that's just one data point important to keep in mind and finally creativity when folks are in creative meetings in person they bring their a-game but when they're on zoom they could get distracted they could disappear or whatever uh and then you you filled it out with some other important you know

SPEAKER_280: personal sort of information said happy to do an ama yeah so thoughts on my response i think you're

SPEAKER_09: correct uh i actually chimed in and responded to to this comment myself and i was i was very skeptical i was a i loved working from home i thought that was like the dream yes like i can hang out in my pjs all day just at my computer i don't have to commute yes and i i enjoyed it for a while but after several years i think exactly what you said about being distracted losing some of the intensity and focus and i'm i like to work i don't you know you're a worker babe for sure hard worker yeah i'm not somebody who's like naturally like i don't want to do that i'm going to hang out for an hour but even i found that after a while it's very easy to get distracted when you're in your house when you're never face to face with your co-workers when everybody is just like a little line of text on your chat app instead of being in your face you just lose that personal connection and when you're in an office with other people they're your peers and your co-workers you raise your own game to keep up with all of them yeah you don't do that when you're at home you set your own energy level and

SPEAKER_197: everybody kind of has and i think it just slowly atrophies i know it did for me if you are a young

SPEAKER_00: person i think and you've been doing this for a while and you're convinced like it's you know you're it's some crazy capitalist and they're forcing you to come to work it's actually in your benefit i think

SPEAKER_01: not socializing with people is making a generation of very weird people i've been talking to some parents who have kids older than us who lost their entire college years or lost their high school years to the

SPEAKER_00: covid lockdown yeah so they literally lost graduation of college or graduation of high school you should demand as a young person to be in office and to be near the locus of power and to be mentored and to be professionally developed you should be demanding that you're getting ripped off alex and i came up at a time you know me a little bit earlier where we were in rooms with editors reading our work out loud telling us we sucked telling us how to be better we got to watch other people do the job yeah and we we had people model at first and the professional development that's happening on when we have our monday editorial meeting for found university which i've been at two or three of them i mean what the

SPEAKER_01: the learning on the feedback i'm getting back from people is like whoa that is like the best part of the

SPEAKER_09: job i mean your first couple of jobs you you don't know how to be a good employee yet you haven't done it it's your your first couple of jobs and yeah i can't imagine starting my career in a work from home like i was doing it after a decade of being in an office every day being told exactly what to do

SPEAKER_296: i can't imagine just starting your career from that i want to i want to double click on something

SPEAKER_141: jason said though being near the locus of power is the real hack here people talk about mentorship and culture and all of that to some degree but if you want your career to accelerate what you want is time with the svp or the ceo or whatever and they're never going to have time for you on slack but you can find them in the office you can make you guys collide and then get to know them lever that i mean if you're ambitious i i don't think promotes for you if you are an individual contributor who has a defined role and you're very good at it sure but i mean for everyone else who's not bad i mean it's kind of for senior status employees i feel i think i think at this point if you're like

SPEAKER_00: a extremely high performer in a specific vertical with a very tight skill set with a tight arrangement you're going to do x y and z perfect i'm trying to be the return to office armist person right which is somebody asked me kindly here a young person i'm going to new york i'm going to a wedding i don't want to use one of my vacation days i'll work really hard remote but i i don't want to go see new york i've been to new york a million times they don't like the city so that's a bit of an insult

SPEAKER_85: i'm from there but i get it i was like i kind of get it shout out to maddie and maddie was like

SPEAKER_308: can i work remote one day doesn't want to spend any time in new york i was devastated i was like

SPEAKER_00: i'll give you 10 things to do it doesn't even sleep but i think she wants to save the day all right hey listen a proper vacation you know what i said to her you're a high performer certainly fine just let the team know if you need to take a remote day at least go to cassis deli or something

SPEAKER_316: there's some chinatown get some peaking duck that's what i go for a walk in central park i

SPEAKER_252: haven't had lunch yet and it's killing me for alex wilhelm the amazing he's at alex on twitter cautious optimism go give him the hundy get his insights every day on his newsletter mark jeffrey

SPEAKER_00: from hash rate the pod search for hash rate right now pause our pod go to hash rate and sign up and learn and you'll be a little out of your depth but you'll catch up pretty quickly and lon harris he's at lon's you're at mark jeffrey on the x you're active you're a trump supporter yep you have trump

SPEAKER_77: dedication syndrome tds and alex have trump derangement syndrome you have trump dedication

SPEAKER_324: syndrome and i call balls and strikes see you all next time bye-bye