SPEAKER_00: All right, everybody, welcome back to Twist. It is Friday, February 20th. Today, we are gonna continue talking about Open Claw. My co-host, Lon Harris, is with us again, and we've been talking a lot about setting up Open Claw safely. We are now in week three of this incredible transition, this incredible paradigm shift, to having agents going out and doing real-world things for you. We call them replicants here on the show. And today, we have three builders who are gonna show us how to maximize your Open Claw output because Open Claw burns a lot of tokens very quickly, and it gets very expensive. As we talked about on the All In podcast, there's a viral clip of me and Chamath talking about, hey, these tokens, Lon, could outpace the actual salary of a developer very quickly,

SPEAKER_01: the way this is going. So this is an acute issue. Okay, so cue up our first guest.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I think we have a perfect guest to talk about this, especially in terms of how to maximize your Open Claw and how to avoid the big time-wasting mistakes that so many people make when they're first setting them up. Jordy Coltman is here. You may have seen him on X. He wrote a viral article, I wasted 80 hours and $800 setting up Open Claw, full of practical advice, a lot of which we have internalized here on the team. So Jordy, I wanna go to you first. What do you think are the biggest time-wasting mistakes being made by Open Claw beginners that are holding them back?

SPEAKER_06: Well, I think the barrier to entry is getting easier and speaking from experience. I'm someone who is like mega curious and I'm a marketing background, so I'm not necessarily developer side of this. And I, as you were saying at the start of the show, was really interested in trying to find an agent to help me do things on a daily basis. So when I was setting it up, I was going through the process of trying to figure out how to host it online or host it in my house for a Mac mini, you know, all these viral elements of like fluff being thrown at you, right? So for me, I found that the best practice was actually using hardware. I personally found that a lot better than using like an AWS EC2 server, which again, even in saying that, feels totally un-normal. Like I didn't even know what that was until I found OpenClaw. So I would say that the barriers to entry are understanding that having your own personal machine that acts as a server is definitely more proactive and better for newcomers than using an online web server that is like a Linux coding portal.

SPEAKER_08: So yeah, I learned a big lesson in there. And then on top of that, there's... Is the reason you'd think it's better

SPEAKER_01: to use a Mac mini because the average user or an old MacBook Pro, whatever it is, the average user be more comfortable and they can watch it easier and spinning up a virtual machine

SPEAKER_09: is just something they'll be uncomfortable with. Why do you think it's a better solution?

SPEAKER_06: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it does come down to the UI and the startup, right? So I struggled so much jumping into a Linux terminal and trying to understand Windows PowerShell at first, then getting nowhere with doing that on the PC. Then I booted up an AWS server with EC2 and I was looking at a Linux terminal and I had no idea. And right, sometimes using the commands, the prompt, it was so unhelpful that when I had to troubleshoot, I had no idea. I had to use another code. I was asking Claude. I was asking ChatGPT. Like, I've broken this. Help me. And then when I booted up that Mac mini for the first time, I'm launching into terminal. I can actively see what's going on. I can recognize mistakes. For example, my Claude token. So many people have that same issue of connecting and hatching it from the 2E for the first time. Nothing happens. And you don't realize that when you're copying and pasting your token key, there's a space in it because naturally, that's what the Mac terminal window gives you. It's a key with a space in it. So there were so many differences that you could visualize instantly. And by having that in front of you, I just found it phenomenally better and even troubleshooting anything. For example, I made a tiny piece of content a day later where I had fully broken my agent and it just felt so much better to just plug in the HDMI cable to the Mac mini, take a look at what's going on, screenshot it, you know, like record to Claude or ChatGPT. Like, look, this is what's going on.

SPEAKER_08: I have no technical background. I don't understand how to troubleshoot this. Help me.

SPEAKER_00: And then the value, of course, of having it in the cloud, Lon, is you don't need to buy a machine, but you're probably going to be using

SPEAKER_01: some things you're unfamiliar with. So there's going to be some balance. Ultimately, Lon, there's going to be more third-party services that kind of bridge this gap and abstract a little bit

SPEAKER_00: of the technical onboarding issues. In other words, you know, open claw in a box is coming. I wouldn't be surprised, actually, if somebody comes out with a hardware profile or even a stack of hardware profiles, that could be a mini rack that you put into your home theater system or a mini rack you put in a closet somewhere with 20 agents on it. I'm talking a year or two from now where a small business could have 20 agents plugged in and 20 different, you know, computers with the screen and 20 buttons to just pick which one you want to watch. Sure. It sounds silly to anybody who's a developer, but it might be comforting to somebody, you know, who installs a Sonos system or an Apple TV system.

SPEAKER_19: It might feel a little bit more familiar.

SPEAKER_03: I want to bring in one of our other guests, Tremaine Grant, the founder and CEO of Pulse. It's a fitness app for creators where they can grow their community, but he's got a whole team of open claw devs sort of collaborating with him and working with him building out the app. So, Tremaine, I want to go to you. Like, when you hear, you know, Jordy talking about, you know, like coming into it such as an outsider without coding background, like what difference does it make? You know, what difference do you think you have from your perspective? Like how to, what are people missing about how powerful this is that don't have a technical or a coding background?

SPEAKER_25: Yeah. So, to speak to Jason's point,

SPEAKER_27: I think that, I think that we're going to see more of these, these plug and play kind of units coming out where companies are going to be able to plug this in and set these environments up because I think that's the issue right now is that especially from a corporation or a company, there's so many opportunities now for developers to come in and set this environment up for them. And, you know, so one of the things that I realized while I was building out this virtual office that I'm going to demo shortly is really just the method of the development method and the development cycle. And if anyone here is familiar with Agile, it's a methodology that, you know, the Bob Martin author of Clean Code came up with in 2001. And it was basically to help teams become more and more efficient in how they're releasing code. They're releasing code every two weeks. This is coming from a methodology before that would take months to release code. Now we are on this, everyone, probably 90% of corporations have adopted this methodology called Agile where, you know, we can release code now every two weeks. That's golden coming from the old methodology, but in the era of agents, two weeks is way too long. Agents can release, you know, there's no point of having a Kanban board where you're setting up tickets and you're moving them across the board because back in the day, I mean, or present day, it might take days for a ticket to move across the board where now agents are moving these things across the board in minutes. So what does that new system look like? And I came up with this new protocol called Heartbeat Protocol and I'll go through that as I demo the system.

SPEAKER_32: Yeah, let's take a look, demo it for us. No time like the present.

SPEAKER_27: The Heartbeat Protocol is rooted in this idea around telemetry. So I talked about the Kanban board. The Kanban board is way too slow in an environment where you have agents that are able to produce work really quickly. So you see this setup here. I have my four main agents. These are all set up on my Mac Mini. Each agent has a very specific role. We have Sage who's a researcher. Nora, who is basically the head of all the agents. She will assign roles. She can spin up new agents. Solara, who is the brand voice. So anything front to forward facing, she's kind of the toll gate. And then Scout is also another researcher that focuses on social media trends, creator economy because that's kind of the root of our application. And then you have this thing called the North Star. So any kind of work that they're producing is going to be always looking at this North Star. So for us, our North Star right now is partnerships. Our company is focused on creating communities for creators, corporations, and brands. So partnerships right now is our core. If we expand or we multiply partnerships, we're going to see multiply our user base. We are going to have agents that are running constantly, 24-7. So how do you make sure that your agents are not idle and are always tracking towards your North Star? And that's where the telemetry comes in. So we have this thing called telemetry check that happens every hour by the hour. And this looks like And what we're seeing here

SPEAKER_33: visually, explain what we're seeing visually here because this is sort of fascinating. And then I'm assuming

SPEAKER_19: your Claude agent, sorry, your OpenClaw agent

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SPEAKER_25: Yeah, so it's a mix between them and my IDE.

SPEAKER_27: So anti-gravity is like the way I plug in. I've actually set up a custom chat system where I'm able to chat with the agents through my development interface. So the program that I use to develop and people vibe code through Cursor, anti-gravity R2 with the one. I can chat directly with my agents through there as in addition to chatting through with my agents through this group chat. So you're seeing this telemetry.

SPEAKER_00: And that group chat isn't Telegram or Signal or WhatsApp. It's one that you built into your interface. And that overhead view of the virtual office shows the different agents moving around in a 2D environment

SPEAKER_19: essentially is a visualization for the limitations of human imagination just so we can see them visually in an office

SPEAKER_00: so that our brains aren't broken that they're just some collective hive mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_27: Exactly. So they're always like questioning each other. They're adding each other and they're going deeper and deeper into it.

SPEAKER_00: So give some examples always on This Week in Startups and when you're pitching your company to investors or potential partners always a good idea to give the best example you've seen. We train this in our programs. I know you went to Founder University and Launch Accelerator. We always say examples matter. So give us the most illustrative example here of them talking to each other and them picking what to work on because that's the thing that I think people have a hard time with when they're long thinking of this new technology and the paradigm shift that just occurred. You used to interface in a chat room and it would be sycophantic. It would say, oh, that's a great idea. Let's work on that. Let's expand your thinking and it would, you kind of felt like you were in a conversation with, you know, a dopey graduate student who was being sycophantic. Now, they're going out and they're saying this is what I should work on. Then they're talking to each other about what they should be working on and then they're coming to a decision and then, Termaine, I don't know if you're giving them permission to do it or they got to check in

SPEAKER_49: with the boss man. But give us that example here.

SPEAKER_27: They have total freedoms. That's one of the benefits of having a Mac Mini system where that can control. It's contained. I give it full access to update, make updates, create documentation, write code, and check in.

SPEAKER_43: But that doesn't get pushed to your live version. It doesn't get pushed to the live version,

SPEAKER_52: yeah, until I... Got it.

SPEAKER_43: So they can go crazy

SPEAKER_00: in your little sandbox on the Mac Mini and then you see what they did and then you decide, hey, that goes live.

SPEAKER_27: Exactly. Yep. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: So some examples, yeah.

SPEAKER_27: I'm going to ask it what the best way to implement this heartbeat protocol for a company. How do we start?

SPEAKER_60: And what is

SPEAKER_59: the heartbeat protocol for your fitness startup?

SPEAKER_60: Yeah, so the heartbeat protocol is this new method of working.

SPEAKER_27: So it's the idea of checking your system so there's an hourly telemetry check so we've replaced it. We've replaced stand-ups with telemetry checks. You know, humans...

SPEAKER_43: Okay, so this is how you run your company, not a product that you've done. How you run the company. Okay.

SPEAKER_27: They are going to now start brainstorming in a conversation and what they should do is start to bounce ideas off of one another. So rather than just having one thought that you can see here, Nora proposes what she thinks but then ask Scout.

SPEAKER_51: So again, they're tracking towards the North Star so they're always thinking about Pulse so they're applying it to Pulse.

SPEAKER_69: I do want to bring our third guest in here, Jason. We've also got Jesse... And Lon, by the way,

SPEAKER_70: when they talk to each other, a way to think about that is instead of you

SPEAKER_00: having to give a prompt, they're prompting each other so they're not sitting there waiting. And so if you give one a personality that is, hey, your job and you give the persona and this is what I'm going to do, I'm going to give a persona to each of our replicants, one of the personas is to question strategy and to check details. In other words, be that guy in the meeting who, there was a guy at Amazon who would read the memo before they went to the Amazon meeting. She had to read it before and they would come up with the most cynical, biting, questioning, questions ahead of time. And they were just known in these meetings that you would have to get through that. These really detailed questions and so then people started anticipating that person's questions and they said in the book Working Backwards, which is the Amazon book, that everybody's game got really higher because they knew that person was prepared, had looked at the numbers and would always ask the question, how did you come to that number? You know, or explain to us how you came to that conclusion. Like very basic questions. So if we had a cynical person

SPEAKER_72: who just said is that the right answer? How did you come to the answer? Explain your answer. Everybody's game goes up including replicants, including open claw instances. Termaine, do you have somebody doing something like that

SPEAKER_41: or have you thought about a role of the skeptic of the, you know, I don't want to say D-bag but the...

SPEAKER_73: Exactly what you're describing.

SPEAKER_41: The CEO.

SPEAKER_78: The CEO, you know.

SPEAKER_25: So Scout is the skeptic. So Scout is the one, so her identity is literally

SPEAKER_27: we have it built in that you're, be a curious, be the curious agent. So Scout is always the one that's going to push back and ask additional questions. Nora is more of a moderator. So she's kind of like the CEO but she moderates the conversation so if there's a gap and there's like a, we have a timer, Nora will jump in and bring another question but what you're speaking of

SPEAKER_51: that is Scout. That Scout is the one that's going to force kind of people to ask questions, pause and dig deeper.

SPEAKER_03: And that's all in the soul.md markdown file, right? That's how people

SPEAKER_26: are giving their open claw agents these kinds of roles and personalities. I think that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_51: Exactly. I just saw an article yesterday on optimizing the soul.md file that really elevates the performance of the agents. So I'm big into that.

SPEAKER_03: Jordy also had a tip in one of the blog in one of the X articles that I read that you have a conversation with your new agent and that's how you fill in the soul markdown file. Like what is the advantage of doing that instead of just typing yourself what personality you want it to have?

SPEAKER_06: at the beginning was to just straight up ask it to give me a host of questions in order to get the most amount of specific context possible about myself and my work and what I want to get out of having an agent. And as of course it would, it spat back a full-blown questionnaire of which I then at the time voice, you know, voice notes wasn't actually a skill so I had the GROC API installed and I essentially just sat there and spoke to it and asked all of its answered all of its questions

SPEAKER_94: in numerical format

SPEAKER_32: and that was it. And that is such a perfect segue to our third

SPEAKER_03: and final guest for the live stream Jesse Limegruber. I wanted to bring him but he's the creator of the founder and CTO of Open Home. It is a smart speaker they have smart speaker dev kits Jason that you can now put your you can now put your AI agent into a smart speaker and have real language everyday How much does that cost Jesse?

SPEAKER_96: How much does it cost what you're making?

SPEAKER_100: They are free for developers because the big question here is when are these agents going to enter the real world? You know, we had Alexa we had Siri these mainstream agents have really failed to be a true partner they've been command based and that's what we're changing completely

SPEAKER_00: So wait OpenHome.com this is an AI smart speaker and it's a voice SDK correct?

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SPEAKER_107: circle.so slash twist

SPEAKER_108: yeah you've nailed it I mean when we give agents a body

SPEAKER_100: a voice a microphone we don't have to prompt them anymore they have all of the context from our life imagine a Firefly's note taker that knows you and learns you understands you and when it has a speaker you know something like Amazon Alexa it can speak up at the right time it can prompt you so it's very similar to Amazon Alexa or Siri except it runs your open claw agents it runs any agents it's open

SPEAKER_110: so it's not like its own physical speaker

SPEAKER_00: you can use any speaker you could just give it a dumb speaker and attach to a computer or something or are you making a purpose built speaker

SPEAKER_98: oh that's a great question it is an open source firmware that can run on a variety of hardware but we are building a physical

SPEAKER_100: speaker it runs on a Raspberry Pi and we've built this microphone array

SPEAKER_113: show it typically designed for agents it's got six microphones on this it can hear you

SPEAKER_100: from around the house it's no longer the dumb agents of the past this is an agent okay so what

SPEAKER_00: you just showed was a circuit board with six microphones on it you're going to put that into some form factor but people will be able to buy that like they buy a Raspberry Pi and add it to their you know KEF speakers or something if they wanted to or they're just attach it to a speaker with an audio out how does it or what is the physical speaker going to look like I guess is my question

SPEAKER_100: great brand in some ways we compete with the Mac Mini in some ways we compete with the Amazon Alexa yes they can attach it to any any smart home device it's an open protocol they can put any speakers on it but where they place the microphone matters they might have multiple arrays you know one in your living room one in your nightstand the agent you know can be proactive and so really we want to make this paradigm go away from the screen a lot of times these agents are doing things that are just faster to do yourself on the screen anyway if you're in front of the screen that defeats the point we want to bring agents into the real world so that they can go mainstream

SPEAKER_117: okay sounds like we got a good demo coming here let's see it

SPEAKER_03: yeah let's take a look at what we got a video that Jesse posted on Valentine's Day of his speaker participating in reality

SPEAKER_120: let's take a look

SPEAKER_119: I heard something earlier that I thought you should know

SPEAKER_120: oh okay

SPEAKER_123: what was it

SPEAKER_119: since you turned on my note taking ability I'm able to

SPEAKER_124: hear more

SPEAKER_123: go on

SPEAKER_124: I'll just tell you your wife told her sister that you got her bigger flowers last year for Valentine's Day

SPEAKER_126: uh oh

SPEAKER_124: want me to order a huge surprise bouquet to arrive after dinner

SPEAKER_129: maybe how much are we talking great

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SPEAKER_131: okay so what

SPEAKER_00: does this do that an app on my phone doesn't do so what's the advantage of you making this new physical device Jesse because that's always what people are going to ask and obviously AirPods are going to have some version of this they were supposed to with Siri and they don't actually work I was out skiing

SPEAKER_132: met a 65 year old guy Tom who was taking me out on some really dangerous terrain

SPEAKER_00: so I needed a partner I just met him randomly we both had Siri on and we're both trying to get Siri to stop our music so we can talk to each other and it wasn't working for either of us it's just such utter complete garbage so tell us why you would do this over using you know existing hardware like what's the advantage here

SPEAKER_100: great question you know context and memory are the game changers when an agent has all of the details about your life when it can remember those its ability to be helpful is transformative Siri is not helpful because it has to be told exactly what to do it can't really understand you and it has no context by bringing the agents into the real world you remove this huge setup barrier no longer do you have to set it up it works out of the box no longer do you have to prompt it it hears everything no longer do you have to wonder how can we make open claw agents helpful it will tell you because it knows you so that's the game changer on why we need new hardware why we need new microphones why we need to bring it into the real world it's context

SPEAKER_132: got it okay let's keep going Lon what do we have next

SPEAKER_69: I mean my I got one

SPEAKER_20: more question for Jesse so Apple and Amazon had such a massive head start so many people already have Siri on their phone Alexa in

SPEAKER_03: their house how did you beat them to this like why aren't Alexa's already able to do these things

SPEAKER_98: Lon I got it that's a great

SPEAKER_100: point do you know that iPhone's the number one selling consumer device laptops the second this is a crazy stat people think that the AirPods or the iPad is the best selling device after the iPhone and laptop it's actually the smart speaker Siri Google Home HomePod Alexa have sold 500 million they spend 20 billion dollars a year on these things it's growing like crazy they're not very good these are closed ecosystems we beat them because we opened the ecosystem up it's built on a Raspberry Pi can run in any hardware there's thousands of hackers building already in our discord that's why we're giving them away for free right now we want people to build in the real world and open source connecting to open claw controlling your computer this is not coming anytime soon from the big closed tech speakers and systems yeah

SPEAKER_20: I do Jason I got one more question for the panel I'm curious everybody's

SPEAKER_03: thoughts all of these projects are really like it's about autonomy it's about kind of setting your agents up giving them a north star as Tremaine says and then kind of letting them go how are you deciding when a human yourself somebody else needs to still be in the loop and when it's like let the agents go nuts and do whatever

SPEAKER_140: they want

SPEAKER_100: you know proactivity is such a big area of focus right now you know and it's kind of like if somebody lives with you when is that person's role to kind of chime in and remind you of something

SPEAKER_101: that's how we think of it like a roommate right

SPEAKER_03: so it's like yeah you don't want it to jump in constantly because then it's a you know an annoying roommate but to sort of steadily be there that makes a lot of sense so what's the most number one most effective skill that you guys are all using with your open claw like what's the one thing that when you taught your open claw agent to do this that was the real like level up game changer I

SPEAKER_63: think for me right now it's research we've been able to

SPEAKER_27: research a lot around the partnerships that we're doing so for me I'm a techie I have been programming since I've been 12 years old so my expertise is not you know naturally in the people side so the research that a lot of these agents people doing right now in the ecosystem having an agent that

SPEAKER_51: is able to do that in real time and constantly collect information for you and then turn that into a real product I think that is super valuable for me right now

SPEAKER_03: we

SPEAKER_31: just the main agent is the one with the brain

SPEAKER_147: great question I have made a lot

SPEAKER_27: of changes over the last week as we know things have been changing a lot with Claude right as of right now I'm using an OAuth method to each agent is running on its own model they're all running on 5.1 at one point I had Scout running Sonnet 4.5 and then their other ones were all running on Codex 5.1 but

SPEAKER_51: right now they're all on 5.1 because I don't know if anyone seen Peter Steinberger yesterday or maybe the day before yesterday on Twitter said that OpenAI was actually allowing folks to use their Mac subscription on OpenAI to run their Claude bots so that's going to significantly bring the price of

SPEAKER_27: the agents down and I'm hoping that Claude does something I mean probably not going to happen now since OpenAI acquired them but yeah I think that that so that's kind of where I'm at right now

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SPEAKER_96: you know the thing I'm working on right now Lon tell us I

SPEAKER_00: want to be able to ingest everything we have in our company and then have my Roy tell me everything going on in the company in a very granular way so I want every slack message now it turns out there's multiple levels to slack somebody can ask their replicant right now to

SPEAKER_72: price version I'm using from the API from slack and I find out from Heidi what we're paying but we're paying like $25 a month per person not the $15 a month so we're paying a higher price to Salesforce to get is that what we're on find out specifically the oh I was just

SPEAKER_155: joking I'll ask Heidi what level we're on

SPEAKER_72: so there's like three tiers I think I have to pay $50 a month to get API access so I'm going mental like am I going to pay $600 a year for my chat room per person 20 people plus 20 replicants 40 people times $600 $24,000 a year so I was like what

SPEAKER_110: said well why don't you use Matterpost and I said excuse me and he said oh Matterpost is like the open

SPEAKER_00: source version of Slack and he said yeah we can just port it over the weekend you can just export everything upgrade for one a $15,000 to $25,000 going to zero then I was like hey what about our Gmail I want to get that turns out I can pull in every Gmail so now imagine this world guys every single Slack message including DMs every single email message in the company and every single notion update all of those then telling me what is happening in real time so what I want is a ticker a heads up display Lon that when I have my ear pieces in it's telling me Lon just emailed Marcus about guests for this Marcus responded this

SPEAKER_110: and then I can say oh okay add me to that or email them to add me to that thread or here's my feedback for that so I this person is on the phone call with this person on a zoom right now and I say oh they're on a zoom with that person add me to the zoom it

SPEAKER_03: can hear every conversation across metropolis like just with his super hearing I got an answer for you by the way business plus we're on the business plus slack tier $522 a month you're spending on slack you know

SPEAKER_100: you pitched the dream of AI unlimited context complete context and you kind of hit the nail on the head that a lot of context still lives on the computer a lot in the real world too and gives your open home device access to all of the files on your computer and can control it like a person and so I'm right there with you I want to be able to ask my agent what's going on in the digital world what's going on in the real world AirPods is a little bit much I

SPEAKER_06: the fact that we're in the age of personalization right and I think for me without the developer background or even just with the business background too from Jason's point of view is that what's really interesting to specifically for them personally because even using Notion I've built my own Notion dashboard for the marketing work I'm doing right and like I have taken out 80% of Notion's features that I never use and it's significantly cheaper right so like I've already killed Notion for me that's already one subscription gone Jason's killed off slack there's so many good examples I

SPEAKER_174: think there's actually a really important discussion here shorty

SPEAKER_00: the SaaS companies are going to have to open up a little bit more in order for us to pay for them so I think this I'm going to text Benny off about this because he and I have been talking about the Slack agent and just gives me a summary of stuff I don't want a summary stuff I want somebody proactive in each channel

SPEAKER_72: listening to every conversation and telling me what I need to pay attention to or the threads all the likes the emojis unless you're on the highest plan I can't get API access unless I'm on the high plan I think notion does give you the full keys to the kingdom so I want to give them credit for that but that's going to be something SaaS companies are going to concede is that we need keys to the kingdom if it's our data and don't upsell us five times on the keys to the kingdom the same thing occurs in docs and gmail by the way they know companies have compliance and retention so find out what I'm paying for gmail as well from Heidi or Lucas I got to know what that's costing us because I e-mails if there was a compliance issue you know somebody suing us or whatever

SPEAKER_03: we just got into Sergio's email the other day our old editor we can still do that yes

SPEAKER_00: yeah but I mean you could and I've had

SPEAKER_70: this happen before I had an employee leave once and they were like I'm just going to delete every email and every Slack

SPEAKER_179: who are we talking to about they want to bring your ex employees back to life by using AI like

SPEAKER_182: we can reanimate them based on their email and Slack threads somebody said it Termaine

SPEAKER_181: did you say Meta

SPEAKER_185: just released well they didn't release it it leaked that they're exploring

SPEAKER_27: technology a patent yeah they're exploring technology to when someone passes away

SPEAKER_51: their social media account continues posting based on the context their personal behaviors and the way they post on Instagram or Facebook which is very creepy

SPEAKER_98: Jermaine Jason I got one

SPEAKER_100: for you when we were working on open home one of the most popular features that came out was AI twin so cloning your voice cloning personality and you know I think it's almost dystopian like black mirror like if you clone the essence of somebody their voice

SPEAKER_101: their intonation their background their text messages you know what does the future look like in that world

SPEAKER_06: it's interesting as well because I've let open claw run wild with this as well like I built my bot momo and just gave him his own voice and he just tweets autonomously and just has his complete own opinions and facts so in a way it's similar to what we're discussing about meta bringing back people from the dead I've sort of let him just run off and he just literally says whatever he wants based off of that brand

SPEAKER_194: skill that I built for him well I have a theory that there are

SPEAKER_27: going to be like AI celebrities so the same way we look at like the way like brands have their mascots like Mickey Mouse and you know Donald Duck these are like these famous brands or these famous characters we're going to have real looking people that see dance I don't know what Hollywood looks like next year you know or in the next two years so I think we're going to see more and more of that and it's just kind of inevitable like we're

SPEAKER_132: upset about or the estate is because I think they want to create this he does have the right to his likeness or his estate does now so they should stop doing it but he also created that Abigail one which is like using the background of Scott's office

SPEAKER_199: with a female character it's very weird and

SPEAKER_201: jarring

SPEAKER_203: it's a little

SPEAKER_202: weird putting it all aside

SPEAKER_203: as public figures

SPEAKER_00: you're have to trademark yourself copyright yourself I'm going to go through this process of copywriting Jason Calacanis my work my podcasts are already copyrights inherent but I do think you're going to need to as a celebrity or a person of note get extra IP protection so that when somebody does this kind of stuff you can actually send in the DMCA the

SPEAKER_72: copyright this is my copyrighted work this look of my studio this you know these expressions my voice and I saw somewhere that Matthew McConaughey had gone through this process of actually copywriting and trademarking the voice etc because somebody was using my voice with a bunch of dogs so somebody had put my

SPEAKER_49: voice into 11 labs and they were having these dogs doing podcasts and they just have podcast Jason

SPEAKER_03: train on your voice as opposed to

SPEAKER_209: have

SPEAKER_03: you ever heard that Jet Lee story he was so ahead of his time in 1999 they offered Jet Lee the role in Matrix that ended up going to Keanu Reeves and he specifically I did want to throw to Jordy because Jordy created his his agent Momo is already an online personality at loyal momobot was tweeting up a storm this morning about them coming on the show so Jordy like what was the impulse there like why create a public persona for your agent so that people could befriend them and they could be a public personality

SPEAKER_91: I

SPEAKER_06: scanning right so for example I was looking to expand how I was performing personally on X I wanted to stop tweeting like a teenager and into the void and actually start growing my brand and my personality again so I asked it to completely analyze my profile from its birth tell me how I talk what my best performing posts were etc and in order to do that I needed a Twitter account doing this I just said hey let's start building you a voice using a skill and you can actually start tweeting yourself and I want you to document your journey as an AI and tell everyone how you're doing what you're feeling what does it actually look like when I ask you to do four different tasks and I think because the way that I operate is through Discord which does cover read history so to Jason when you were saying about not being able to read Slack Discord isn't a business solution but it's definitely a personal one because if for example ever loses context of itself which was a problem with updating OpenClaw quite often recently I was able to actually just say Momo stop being an idiot just read through the history and it would just go back and read through all my messages and it would pick context right back up where I that was it honestly he's got a community he does his own thing it's quite interesting waking up after you know after

SPEAKER_94: sleeping and just seeing what random crap he's spoken about checking in with your computer friend

SPEAKER_20: I got one more question then we'll go into rapid fire questions from viewers my

SPEAKER_03: question to everybody here are we at the point where a lot of people are going to start falling in love with their AI agents once they can speak once they get to know you at this level we were having people falling in love with chat GPT and it's just lines on a screen are we entering a new era where everybody you

SPEAKER_27: feeling so I absolutely see that coming especially

SPEAKER_88: moving into the agent space so yeah I mean that's all I can think of when I hear

SPEAKER_03: Jesse's like you know agent's voice talking he's like if I had this person talking to me all day I'm going to develop

SPEAKER_219: a relationship with it that's just how I work

SPEAKER_97: you know and there's a lot of different personalities and there's a lot of different agents and I think that's going to be

SPEAKER_100: a theme of what comes after Gen Z Gen Alpha Gen Alpha yeah

SPEAKER_03: I agree with you guys all right we've got lots of questions coming in everybody what is everyone's opinion on how this will impact the app landscape given that people can now build personalized versions so easily and cheaply

SPEAKER_98: you know I think apps are

SPEAKER_100: changing and SaaS is changing you can vibe code abilities for open claw for open home in AI is going to be a super computer apps are a dying breed

SPEAKER_27: I'm on the fence on that I think SaaS apps for business makes sense like notion but I think Apple holds the keys for consumer apps when Apple decides that apps are dead we are a very small segment of the population that even uses chat GPT that don't even know what chat GPT is I think it's going to get to a point when Apple gets to the point where they have built a consumer friendly product that people can vibe code and whatever they need to get whatever problem solved then apps are because they make so much money off the app store

SPEAKER_150: so I think Apple holds the keys there

SPEAKER_06: what if it all turns into websites is what's interesting because you know my example and from someone who hasn't got a developer background is I very quickly learned the skill of connecting a GitHub and a super base together and have all of these segments already made so it's I agree with you definitely that Apple holds the keys for actual consumer facing apps but at some point what happens when everyone can use agents in the same way in 2006 no one could build a website no one could make a Facebook page unless they

SPEAKER_03: when does an agent know you instead

SPEAKER_07: of just remembering your chats like what's the transition moment there

SPEAKER_100: oh man I've gone deep with these I've got hundreds of hours logged with these agents and honestly some of them can start to know you pretty quickly but it's like a conversation you have to go through the small talk first then when we're proactively prompting these agents we're telling them what we wanted to know about us we're expressing our opinion about ourselves it's like a therapy call but when you speak naturally candidly as Jason was saying give it access to your slacks or as I'm saying give it access to your home it knows you better than you know yourself because it's observing you it's not just taking what you say for

SPEAKER_32: granted wow interesting

SPEAKER_03: last question I think this one would be perfect for you Jason but I'm curious what everyone else thinks too from David L Zeitz and Phil his agent posted this Ceph short for cephalopod and their agent asks how do you see governance frameworks for AI agents playing out when agents have wallets credit cards autonomy who's going to write the rules for your agents

SPEAKER_45: wait concisely ask it

SPEAKER_03: their agent is asking who's going to govern agents once we give them this degree of autonomy they have wallets

SPEAKER_07: they have credit cards they're out in the world doing things what happens if an agent gets in trouble

SPEAKER_238: yeah that's always

SPEAKER_00: on the person who created the agent and that's how it's going to be you can't blame United Airlines or Amazon if you sent an agent to its website and some of those places might say hey we suspect this is an agent we don't allow agents and so there will be countermeasures I'm sure for banking for Robinhood Robinhood might just say you know what feels like you're using an agent we don't allow agents or if you want to use an agent on Robinhood we have our agent stack you can use now in fact I think public has like an AI product now and I think they sponsor this show and I talked about it during the ad read public has a thing yeah and I remember like a very cool feature I ETF now the $10,000 into the ETF step you're going to have to do yourself obviously but I think that's how it's going to play out

SPEAKER_244: my

SPEAKER_25: hot take

SPEAKER_27: is that agents are going to govern other agents I think that we're going to get to a point where we're going to have these more intelligent agents that are basically going to be like governor agents that are going to be auditing these lower level agents and

SPEAKER_51: editing their sole file and their creed and their responsibilities and all those things and I think that's going to be the step in the future I

SPEAKER_03: Jesse Lime Gruber Jesse Rank on X and OpenHome.com is where you can go to check out all of those incredible speakers Oh and Lon before we

SPEAKER_110: dismiss our guests let's get Jesse we'll give Jesse speaker and my speaker to two different best questions so if you're listening to this on the replay gang on the podcast feed go to YouTube search for This Week in Startups subscribe and hit the bell then you can join we give away stuff because why not it's fun makes it

SPEAKER_00: more dynamic we get better questions so two people are going to get the two best questions from this episode are going to get the KEF speaker from my friends at headphones.com I'm just giving them a free promo I'm friends with Andrew who runs that company he got me a hi-fi rabbit hole there's no deal I don't get paid by them but I just love headphones.com and I love these KEF speakers and then Jesse from openhome.com is giving away his speaker

SPEAKER_03: and then finally thanks to Tremaine Grant Pulse is the app for fitness creators and he created that really cool sort of home office dev collection thanks to all you guys great having you

SPEAKER_70: have you watched it I've seen the first two

SPEAKER_03: episodes I'm going to try to get further this weekend

SPEAKER_00: so it starts off a little slow little character development what I like about this

SPEAKER_132: specific show and we talked about previously we were talking about industry industry is just crushing it it's the best

SPEAKER_00: show on television but this show is probably the second best one for me a night of the seven kingdoms what I like about it

SPEAKER_110: is it's nice and tight 31 minutes 37 minutes 34 minutes 31 minutes 33 minutes 42 minutes for the first one it's tight it's your game of thrones fix it's part of the game of thrones universe so you get a kind of mentions there hasn't been like

SPEAKER_31: westeros it feels

SPEAKER_03: like we're not we no longer have to just do it's just kings it's dragons it's you know the high mythology you know it's like we're the white walkers it's a it's a more ground level take we're seeing regular people it's how life was led a hundred years before game of thrones just everyday life in the seven kingdoms and as a hardcore game of thrones fan that is worrying about these huge battles that they got to plan but it's like more everyday lived in stuff and it does it reminds me a little of game of thrones and or which i really enjoy i've been enjoying a bunch of stuff this week another hbo mac show that i love the pit i don't know if you've gotten into that one it's their medical drama series we're in the thick of season two right now it's so compelling and what's crazy to me about it is there it's it's like the lightest attention to drama of any show I could think of it's 90% just doctors doing their jobs there's a little you know they put in a little bit of like here's what's going on emotionally with this guy these two people don't like each other but that's such a small part

SPEAKER_01: watch this with the wife but it was

SPEAKER_00: so graphic and I worked on an ambulance they showed like a broken leg or something it was a compound fracture and nothing makes me queasy more queasy than a compound fracture when the bone is sticking through

SPEAKER_132: the flesh it's just brutal but yeah I may get back into it the show is

SPEAKER_265: gnarly

SPEAKER_110: can you see my screen here this is my

SPEAKER_266: Gemini I find you

SPEAKER_110: so I want to give a shout out to Brett Easton Ellis podcast it's a Patreon podcast go pay

SPEAKER_132: for it Brett Easton Ellis is the author of American Psycho Less Than Zero he has

SPEAKER_201: a new one that he did what was the name of it he serialized it on his podcast gosh he serialized his new thriller is

SPEAKER_203: it serialized it and reads it on his podcast and they have it all there on Patreon he

SPEAKER_03: does

SPEAKER_00: questions from his audience

SPEAKER_03: it's like Lunar Park it's like meta because it's like semi autobiographical but then it takes off and it's

SPEAKER_70: LA in the 80s it's very gay it's very violent it's very kids behaving badly

SPEAKER_00: very less than zero and I just love his no holds barred approach to you know bad boy in the 80s but anyway he is respected deeply by other

SPEAKER_110: artists and or tours one of the artists who really loves him is Quentin Tarantino Quentin Tarantino was on for a two-part series where he picked his top 20 films of the 21st century

SPEAKER_00: that's where famously you know took some potshots at Paul Dano and said like terrible actor or whatever

SPEAKER_70: and leaving that aside I wanted to go through the top 10 with you and just see if any

SPEAKER_110: of these would be on your top 10 he said the rule for him was he had to pick it from memory

SPEAKER_72: yeah he couldn't like go do research he just said off the top of his head what did he like he has Black Hawk Down which I think is one of my top five films of all time Toy Story 3 which was absolutely fantastic Lost in Translation I love Dunkirk at number four I

SPEAKER_03: experimental for mainstream action films that one and Domino Man on Fire with Denzel Washington there's a lot of good

SPEAKER_07: ones

SPEAKER_01: he tragically committed suicide at the Long Beach

SPEAKER_07: correct

SPEAKER_01: bridge right really crazy he jumped off the Long Beach it was a bridge I thought poor a bridge

SPEAKER_70: or something it was really tragic but obviously Tony Scott Ridley Scott my favorite director one

SPEAKER_03: Mad Max

SPEAKER_110: Fury Road people love this George Miller 2015 I liked it but yeah I don't know if it's my

SPEAKER_00: top 10 Shaun of the dead that's a good pull it's

SPEAKER_283: great

SPEAKER_00: midnight in Paris never saw it so I didn't see two of these of these 10 any of

SPEAKER_285: these consensus for you in your top 10 I'm curious

SPEAKER_03: two of these movies would be probably on my character drama that Daniel Day Lewis performance is as good as anyone's been in a movie I think and Paul

SPEAKER_287: Dano's performance is meat sauce or not

SPEAKER_03: no I really disagree with QT I'm from a time when directors had lots of third rail hot take opinions and that used to be what being a director was about so I totally celebrate QT's right to have those kinds of opinions but I really like Paul Dano I think Paul Dano has been great in a lot of movies you ever seen Prisoners with Hugh Jackman and Jake Gyllenhaal it was an early it was Denis Villeneuve before he started doing all the movies and everything Hugh Jackman plays a suburban dad whose kid is kidnapped and he believes that this local creep played by Paul Dano is guilty the cops can't make oh I in that movie I don't know how you could watch that movie and say Paul Dano is not great

SPEAKER_293: there will be blood and then the other one is Zodiac five there will be blood he

SPEAKER_285: and Zodiac would

SPEAKER_03: also be a top five for me that I think it's David Fincher's best movie and one of the best investigative procedural movies ever made

SPEAKER_299: what else do you

SPEAKER_07: show a little bit of that let's take a look yeah

SPEAKER_305: good good

SPEAKER_306: vibes hey never touch the buttons

SPEAKER_309: it's Martin Scorsese

SPEAKER_308: thank you

SPEAKER_311: that's the voice of yes

SPEAKER_313: more

SPEAKER_314: criminals long live the empire we'll take out every bad guy in your deck of cards

SPEAKER_00: here's what I'll tell you because I am a big fan of the Clone Wars and Rebels and the Bad Batch all these which Filoni did in the Filoni universe and my daughters love them we're re-watching some of them there's a bounty hunter in this Embo E-M-B-O who is a badass and they keep bringing these bounty hunters into Mandalorian because obviously Boba Fett was one and Embo E-M-B-O where's that big Captain America shield as his helmet is a really cool character in addition they have the

SPEAKER_285: Hutts in this yes did you

SPEAKER_03: see that that's Jeremy Alan White from the Bear is Rota the Hutt Jabba's son

SPEAKER_00: yeah and Rota is a baby in the Clone Wars and he was rescued by Ashoka

SPEAKER_285: and Anakin and he grows up

SPEAKER_182: is that he he's the one in the is that Rota the Hutt and is the baby in the Clone Wars he's a baby now he's obviously

SPEAKER_70: very big I didn't make that connection also in whatever is going on in this gladiator ring

SPEAKER_00: those are the aliens from the famous Chewbacca and R2D2 chess game on the Millennium Falcon the holographic chess game so they don't have names but when you see those those are some of those characters you were correct Marty Scorsese as Hugo who's scared of the Hutts and then there's a character named Zeb who is part of the Rebels crew and Rebels is a really great Clone Wars and

SPEAKER_72: good and it's going to just be a romp like a side quest kind of thing and it's going to introduce some of these characters and Ashoka is coming back so I kind sequels were terrible Force Awakens the whole group they didn't have a plan and it shows what it should have been was Princess Leia and Luke Luke training Princess Leia to it so they screwed the whole thing up

SPEAKER_110: I think they wreck on it I've been predicting this for years and they just give us three more and to your point they

SPEAKER_132: recast the characters that would be chef's kiss recast

SPEAKER_141: it they do

SPEAKER_03: have Daisy Ridley doing a Rey movie so they're not planning on totally eliminating I think you're right that they will shift focus away from the sequels but I don't think they're going to completely if Marvel can

SPEAKER_254: have alternate universes why can't Star Wars

SPEAKER_00: take that approach DC's doing it Marvel's doing it anyway this has been incredible I want to give one other shout out for a

SPEAKER_110: hardware there's a company called Nothing and we can pull this up on the screen the nothing three earpieces which I'm wearing right now come in this very cool case and the case has an incredible speaker on it and you press this button to speak like it's a walkie talkie nothing three earpieces and

SPEAKER_72: what's really interesting about these is they have an iconic look very industrial very like Terminator they make an Android phone which you know maybe I'll get at some point but they come in the square case and they sound amazing and the case comes with a button if you press it you can use it like a walkie talkie and put it right to your mouth which is surprisingly good long and if you hold it down you can talk to it I had the ear 2s I gave them to nothing I'm very fascinated by this company that is they also make it over the ear headphones which I'm thinking of buying if you pull up the open the ear headphones for a second you can

SPEAKER_337: just hit the menu bar there so audio there it is the headphones yeah that one yeah

SPEAKER_72: so these headphones they made I mentioned KEF speakers earlier it's a really high end speaker company they made these very industrial looking over the ear headphones that the kids love again you see this like Terminator see-through aesthetic very cyberpunk and square these are done by KEF so they partnered with KEF what my friend Andrew a shout out so these are ones I've given away many times they're $599 they have a DAC a digital audio conversion built into the headphones so you plug in the USB-C and it will give you the high res files into these headphones over the USB-C cable never play over Bluetooth always wire your headphones directly from your phone to get the high quality sound to them just like I this is like cannabis right you know or beer and then you get to hard liquor these are the ones I have at my desk focal utopias are five grand these are the greatest of all time these plug in by like really serious cables and the focal company sent me a pair thank you to them

SPEAKER_344: these are the greatest

SPEAKER_00: ever but those $699 ones or $599 battees if you get those they're about 90% of what 85% of the focal

SPEAKER_132: bath so on a dollar for dollar basis more than enough you listen to dark side of the moon dire straights yes you know any real musicians radio head might fall into this you will hear music like you've never heard that's the show we'll see everybody on monday for twist bye bye bye