SPEAKER_00: All right, everybody, welcome back to All In at Davos. We're here at the World Economic Forum. For some reason, they invited me and I'm here interviewing all the most important people in the All In style, which is full contact. We're always debating investment ideas on the pod.

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SPEAKER_06: who take it seriously. Most of us agree going into 2026, stable coins and AI, crypto having a huge

SPEAKER_08: resurgence. And we were lucky enough to get two of my friends, Brian Armstrong from Coinbase and Jeremy Allaire, who's the CEO and co-founder of Circle. We've known each other for 30 years.

SPEAKER_09: Yeah, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_08: What a long, strange trip it's been.

SPEAKER_09: I know. It's great to be with you again.

SPEAKER_11: Yeah. And this is not your first time at Davos. You've been here a couple of times.

SPEAKER_12: Yeah. I started coming with my last company, Brightcove, back in 2008, 2009. And a very different time, both for WEF. It was a different time in the world. There was a great financial crisis breaking out everywhere. And that was, you know, an interesting backdrop. And, you know, also notable, I always reference that same week was when the first block of the Bitcoin blockchain was minted with the, you know, Chancellor on the Brink bailout kind of embedded in the blockchain.

SPEAKER_14: Yeah, it's fascinating. I think it's Game of Thrones. Chaos is a ladder.

SPEAKER_15: Chaos is a ladder.

SPEAKER_16: Yeah. And for guys like us who've been through this, I guess, three times now, we went through it in the dot-com. Boom. I think we're too young to have, we were, you remember obviously that Black Friday in 87, but we were in college. And so we had our dot-com, great financial crisis. And then we had COVID. COVID. Yeah. Which was also pretty spicy. That was a great disruptive. But when you have those moments happen, I'm guessing for you and many of the founders I talk to, you just think

SPEAKER_12: this is the time to build. Yeah, totally. I mean, constraints have a huge impact on what an entrepreneur does. And, you know, even in the history of Circle, we've had extraordinary up and downs, some of which are endogenous shocks, exogenous shocks, all of this. And, you know, back to that 2009, that was, that year actually, I got my company profitable, Freikov. And then not long after it went public. And so, you know, we deal with

SPEAKER_14: what we're dealt with constraints. Yeah. Yeah. Constraint makes for great art is, I think,

SPEAKER_08: the old expression. So let's talk about your journey with Circle. Stablecoins, obviously, are top of mind because we had the Genius Act. My bestie, David Sachs, who's our crypto and AI czar for America, who's here with me at Davos, or I should say I'm here with him. He invited me to come. This technology is important. Why? I mean, look, when I got started working

SPEAKER_12: on this almost 13 years ago, Bitcoin had emerged. And it was from my perspective as an internet technologist, I was thinking about, wow, this seems like a new infrastructure layer for the internet, like a missing infrastructure layer of the internet. The internet had ways to represent data, media, audio, video, software. But there was no notion of money on the internet. And there was no protocol for money on the internet. And it was very clear at the time that that was going to happen. And when we started, I wasn't convinced that everyone in the world is just going to use like a new commodity money like Bitcoin. My view is that we needed a bridge. We needed to connect kind of the existing fiat system to crypto and to these new networks and build like what we called like an HTTP for dollars on the internet. And that was the idea. And eventually, that's called stable coins. Early on, we talked about we're building fiat digital currency or fiat tokens or all this, stable coins stuck. But I mean, the basic idea is we now have a general purpose, general architecture form of money on the internet, digital dollars that can move just like everything else and can transact peer to peer, which is super, super powerful and provides a huge amount of value to people. And really importantly, because of the technology of blockchains, we actually have programmable money. And so we're right at the front edge of kind of, I think, a renaissance in how money is used in the world. We'll come back to AI, I'm sure, because it ties into that. But fundamentally, we need a native way to have money on the internet. We need a very safe form of dollars on the internet. And

SPEAKER_30: that's what stable coins provide. And variability and not knowing how much your dollar is worth

SPEAKER_08: when you open your wallet or your bank account was a blocker for consumers.

SPEAKER_12: Yeah. I mean, volatile cryptocurrencies, no one's going to buy a cup of coffee with a Bitcoin, etc. Yeah. So that's where the word stable coin came from. It's like, well, it's a coin, but it's stable. How do you actually achieve that is a whole different thing. And that's where the model that we built, which is fully reserved with ultra safe assets. And we have regulators look after it and

SPEAKER_36: auditors look after it and make sure it's all done the right way.

SPEAKER_38: And I remember talking to you offline about this. It was the easier decision for

SPEAKER_39: most people in crypto to go to the Zug. What is it? Zug? Zug. The Zug here in Switzerland. Or just be based in Zurich or be based in maybe Dubai. And yeah, just YOLO it. And don't worry

SPEAKER_42: about regulations. And don't worry about audits. Don't worry about regulators. You made a different decision. You told me, no, I'm going to do this buttoned up and proper. And why didn't you go for

SPEAKER_08: the quick, you know, I'll just do this offshore and give up my United States citizen? Or even go

SPEAKER_48: to jail. Why not? Yes. We have many crypto people right now watching this show. Yeah. From San

SPEAKER_53: Quentin. And yeah, I mean, look, shows popular there. I actually, you know, going back to like,

SPEAKER_12: even in the founding of the company, when I looked at like, okay, if we want to like establish a new way to put like what we think of as regular money on the internet and we want to actually build a new

SPEAKER_10: internet native financial system that the whole world uses, like actually uses. Like businesses, are you going to use it? And, and people are going to use it. And we're going to like do loans in it. We're going to do all these things with it. Like if you want it to work that way, well, you know, you have to integrate with the existing system and you have to work with policymakers to figure that out. There's just no other way. So I testified to the Senate in November of 2013. And you know,

SPEAKER_12: if you read the testimony, it's saying all the same stuff now as I, as I did then. And it was received slightly differently. It re it really was. Yeah. I mean,

SPEAKER_58: well, I got a lot of hate. Yeah. Explain, take yourself back to that moment in time where you're, you know, you're in the right, you're trying to explain how to do this correctly.

SPEAKER_16: And you get a reaction that is different than what you maybe anticipated. Well, I think with,

SPEAKER_12: with a lot of technologies on the internet, you know, I was around, I think we were both around in early stages of, of the internet, early stages of the web. And there's, you know, there's sort of a, a, a very kind of hard libertarian, you know, view. And, and then there's the, you know, obviously like the statist view at the other end, and of that. And, you know, I lean libertarian. But I think also, you know, in the early days of the internet, it was like, well, if, if we want to allow companies to get on, well, we need to have like regulation for ISPs, and we need to be able to have secure transactions, secure transactions and SSL. And well, then we're going to need people who are, you know, making decisions about who's a valid site and who's not a valid site. And these were

SPEAKER_10: really controversial things at the time that I think the, you know, more anarcho side of things was,

SPEAKER_12: was against. And now crypto itself, cryptography and crypto kind of birthed out of that. And so, like, these are people who wanted to be outside the system, wanted to be outside. Yeah. And so,

SPEAKER_10: you know, and I think circle has always kind of tried to find this middle way, which is open public networks, permissionless innovation, building on public blockchains, using open source infrastructure, and really what you can do with something like USDC as a dollar and as a technology is far more open than the legacy payment systems and the legacy money systems. And so, there is a very deep commitment to those fundamental internet ideas. But at the same time, like, if you want, you know, BlackRock to use it, or you want to, you know, you want the biggest tech companies in the world to use it, or you just want someone to hold it in a digital wallet and be like, yeah, this is actually a dollar and I can rely on it. Like, you end up needing to have this kind of structure around it.

SPEAKER_12: For trust. For trust. Yeah. Trust, you know, remains a key thing. And obviously, I think, you know, people talk about in code we trust is sort of what you, you know, kind of put

SPEAKER_64: around a pyramid. Easy for a developer to feel that way. Easy for somebody who is extremely technical

SPEAKER_08: to feel that way. Right. But for, you know, a civilian. Right. Non-anarchist. Right. Yeah. Maybe you want to understand how the dollar is actually backed. That's exactly right. Yeah. So,

SPEAKER_12: I think we just took that path. And that was like a harder path. It took more capital. It took more, I had to hire, you know, my first executive was a general counsel and chief compliance officer.

SPEAKER_73: Right. Well, you had to bring those in house, I suppose, because if you went to a law firm,

SPEAKER_19: they would be like, we don't know. Totally. And don't take this risk. Yeah. I mean,

SPEAKER_12: one of the stories actually is that before, you know, Jim Breyer and General Catalyst would give me capital when we were starting the company, they were like, we really need to know that if you do this, it's like, it's not illegal. Like, we're not going to have some kind of liability issue. Yeah. So I personally, you know, on my own, with my own money, like hired like the top kind of regulatory advisory firm in the world to like, go look closely at this, like talk to people at the U.S. Treasury Department, talk to others, like really figure out like, can we do this? And actually, we could. There was a path to do it. And that's because the U.S. Treasury Department actually had given guidance about how to deal with virtual currency in the banking system. This was in March, 2013. So super early. But yeah, I mean, we needed to like know, like, you know, is there a legitimate legal pathway to accomplishing what we want to accomplish? It's always been, you know, important.

SPEAKER_08: And as we've seen, there's things that are legal and then there are incumbents. Incumbents will use the legal system to try to stop innovators. You've also faced a little bit of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_12: Yeah. I mean, I would say in the entire history of building this, it's been just, there's been huge uphill battles with regulators and incumbents. And what's interesting is that

SPEAKER_10: I found over the years that if you come into a policymaker or a regulator and you say, hey, there's a new technology. It can improve things in this way. We're trying to figure out how to deal with the risks. There are real risks. Like, let's not pretend there aren't risks. And like, let's come up with ways to address that. Like, actually, people are pretty interested in talking. And so I think there's, you know, that's there. But generally, when you go to like the incumbents and say, hey, we want to like work with you or integrate this because we kind of need to work with you to make the whole thing happen, like a lot more skepticism and I think kind of constraint there. And so that's changed now. I mean, we're in a very different world now.

SPEAKER_08: Now, it's gone from a threat to an opportunity. But there is still a little reticence to stablecoins and crypto by I think some of the major banks and the big players because they're, maybe they're, my perception is they're a little concerned that you're too

SPEAKER_42: good at what you do and you might be too far ahead. And if you weren't so dexterous at doing this and capable and they started, you know, five years ago, they might feel differently about it. Is my intuition close to your assessment or am I wrong? I think that that's, there's some truth in that,

SPEAKER_12: for sure. But it's interesting, like, it's both you and I have this kind of juxtaposition against these other areas of the internet. And, you know, when digital media happened and it was like, hey, you could stream media or you could put up content on the web and you could do all this.

SPEAKER_10: There are all these digital media startups and the media companies were like, well, we can do that, too. And okay, our business model might have to change, et cetera. And digital advertising, you know, okay, well, you can transform advertising into this, you know, it's more targeted, you know, all this stuff. And, but then there obviously were companies that kind of executed like fundamentally

SPEAKER_12: different technical execution, software execution. They built completely different types of utilities with completely different unit economics that kind of turned the product user experience and the

SPEAKER_10: economics upside down. And those, we know those companies. Craigslist to classifieds, Google ad network to New York Times advertising. Amazon marketplace, you know, and many, many more like that. And so I think that we're in a similar place right now where, you know, a lot of media companies absolutely, and communications companies as well, and enterprise software companies, there's big buckets here, retailers, like sort of said, okay, this is like a new paradigm. It's better for customers. I can deliver a better product. Like the economics are better. We just have to do this. And we're going to, you know, innovators dilemma, blah, blah, blah. And they make that transition. And it takes like five to 10 years. It takes them three times longer than probably

SPEAKER_42: the innovator like Walmart and Target actually do an exceptional job now. The United Airlines app

SPEAKER_96: is not terrible. Right. I mean, it's not Uber. Yeah. But

SPEAKER_10: And this is the difference between like a software driven company and we're a software company, like, you know, fundamentally. Of course, we're going to go faster. Of course,

SPEAKER_08: we're going to understand UX. So the banks, now my understanding is some of them are threatened by the concept of a stable coin, having the ability to generate points, incentives, or in interest, essentially. And that's kind of the sticking point. The genius act says, hey, you can have rewards, but you can't have interest. And that was, I guess, where this was able to get through the

SPEAKER_12: legislative process. Explain that to the audience. Yeah. Yeah. So a couple things. So if you go back a few years, when stable coins sort of emerged, the sort of all the biggest like regulators, bank regulators around the world got together what's called the Financial Stability Board and said, we have to have regulations around this. Like, this can't just go crazy. And that was also when

SPEAKER_10: Libra was coming out and all this didn't come out, but tried to come out. Meta tried to do their own

SPEAKER_42: project. Right. And they gave up on that project based on my insider information because the government felt they had too much power already with their platform. And Zuckerberg said, I have enough heat on this company already. I don't want to have another group of people thinking

SPEAKER_24: I have too much power. And he shut it down. That's what I was told by interns. Yeah. And it's interesting is, you know- Is that your understanding as well?

SPEAKER_12: I have a variety of insights about it. But I think, you know, we're kind of like a neutral company, right? We're not a giant big tech, et cetera. But kind of coming

SPEAKER_10: back to your question, regulators got together and said, hey, there is this payment system innovation. It is this thing called stable coins. And they all kind of said, here's some recommendations for how you could regulate this. And actually, all around the world, that happened. So it happened first in Japan. There's stable coin laws. And then it happened in Europe years ago, actually, stable coin laws. And then, you know, in the UAE and Hong Kong, and then in the US with the Genius Act. And in all of these, stable coins are designed as like a cash-like instrument, a payment instrument. They're designed as this form of money to be used in the payment system. And that's really at the heart of it, right? And that's how these laws have been written. And it's pretty consistent around the world. So Genius Act does that. But it also, I think, provides. So, you know, as a result, under the Genius Act, Circle, as a payment stable coin issuer, we're prohibited from paying interest directly to stable coin holders. It's the same thing in Europe. We're regulated in Europe. Same rules. Same thing in Japan. You know, all these markets, it's the same. But at the same time, like, we're building a business. We do generate revenue. And we work with lots of different types of platforms and markets and distributors and brokerages. We work with everyone from Robinhood to Revolut to Coinbase to, you know, Visa and lots of companies. And so those companies, you know, stable coins are really important, too, because they are how people hold money, how people make payments, how people trade, how people do a lot on those platforms. And so they want to be able to have the ability to pay rewards or have loyalty programs or incentives and other things. And if they're making money from their relationship with us, they want to be able to do that. And that's what the Genius Act captured. And I think really, I think it's good. I think it's a good model. So you're happy with it as is? We think it's a very solid model. And I think really, there's some ongoing discussion about, well, is there a specific set of things that qualify for that kind of those kinds of like loyalty and rewards and other things? And how prescriptive should the law be? And it's kind

SPEAKER_47: of getting relitigated a little bit. The banks, my understanding, maybe want to try to kill it. Maybe some of them who feel the most threatened. Is that the back channel

SPEAKER_12: here at Davos? I think banks see stablecoins as both a threat and an opportunity. I can say we're

SPEAKER_10: having more engagement with more banks in the world than we've ever had before. And major banks, global banks, regional banks, banks all over the world who want to integrate this and use it in payments. They want to use it in how capital markets work. Think about, I need to post collateral on an exchange to trade. And I'm trading different assets. Stablecoins are a better way to do that. And so whether it's in capital markets, in trading, in wealth management, in payments, there's uses for this. And so definitely banks see a lot of opportunity.

SPEAKER_113: Because it's faster and cheaper. It's instant and it's free, essentially.

SPEAKER_12: Yeah. I mean, if you talk to like a global money center bank, you can imagine one of those. I might say JP Morgan.

SPEAKER_10: Something like that, or a city, or one of these banks. And if you ask them,

SPEAKER_12: how many different payment networks are you integrated into as a bank? And they'll tell you like over 200. They integrate to over 200 different payment networks.

SPEAKER_116: And it's all over the planet.

SPEAKER_12: It's all over the planet. And it's all different standards, I would assume?

SPEAKER_10: All different standards, all different systems, et cetera. And so if you go to them and say, well, stablecoin networks are like a new payment network. They're like, I get it. Like this is, oh, it's on the internet. Oh, it has the attributes of how the internet works. We understand that.

SPEAKER_119: And this will be your fastest, cheapest, and most trackable version.

SPEAKER_10: That's right. And so we actually, we have, there's a global systemically important bank we work with who's actually moving their own money between their own global branches using USDC, because it's faster than going through the corresponding banking system. They trust it more. Yeah, in those cases. So bottom line is, there's a lot of opportunity for banks. Bank, it is not, it's not, this is not a black or white thing. I think, I think,

SPEAKER_117: you know, we'll figure out this rewards thing. I'm very sure.

SPEAKER_47: Yeah. And Amex figured it out. And video games figured it out. There was a little rattling

SPEAKER_42: even in those cases where they're like, hey, is this a currency? Because people are trading it on eBay. You've been trading my sword from World of Warcraft or whatever these nerds are up to. And they were like, ah, is that like you have your own currency? It's like, they're playing

SPEAKER_48: video games. Who cares? Like, can we just move on? There's more important things to do in the world

SPEAKER_42: than sweat Amex points being traded somewhere and pretending it's a currency. You're up against a

SPEAKER_64: offshore platform that has, I think, maybe three times the amount of under mass management. Who's counting? Tether. Who's counting? Three, four, five times. But you have been catching up

SPEAKER_19: pretty quick. Yeah. Yeah. USDC amongst the largest stable coins has been growing faster.

SPEAKER_12: You're number two. For two years straight. Yeah. We're the second largest. Tether's first. And we are, we are by far the largest regulated stable coin network. Right. And our, you know, kind of growth in the amount of transactions happening with USDC is growing, you know, quite a bit faster as well. So yeah, we feel really good. I think our view has been to the earlier question. If this is going to be part of the actual economic system, if households and

SPEAKER_10: firms and corporations and financial institutions are going to use this and depend on this, whether you're a remote worker who's a software engineer working in Pakistan, or you're a small business that's importing products from Vietnam that's in Brazil, or you're a hedge fund in the US that's,

SPEAKER_12: you know, trading derivatives, like you're going to want to know that you have something that is safe, fully reserved, audited, compliant, liquid, available in and out of the global financial system. And, you know, when we think about that opportunity, that's an enormous opportunity. Yeah. The TAM of legal electronic money today is about $120 trillion, and growing because of monetary easing and things like that. But of that, there's about $60 trillion, which is physical cash and non-interest-bearing demand deposits. So kind of working capital money sitting out there, right? So there's a huge amount of value stored and used as a store of value, as a payment system money. And stable coins can grow into that. And there's going to be, you know, an infrastructure

SPEAKER_136: for that that's well integrated. And the business is there's a float on this large base of capital

SPEAKER_08: that gets to underwrite your business. If interest rates are high, it's boom times. Tether's making over $10 billion a year on their float. You're making, I'm assuming, billions of dollars or low billions of dollars on your float. I'm not sure if that's public knowledge.

SPEAKER_137: We're a public company. You can look it up.

SPEAKER_69: Yeah. So I mean, I'm assuming it's billions. Yeah. Well, I'm not sure if you break it down by that. We talk about reserve income. Got it. And it's billions.

SPEAKER_139: It's a significant amount. Yeah. And so, but if we go into a zero interest

SPEAKER_69: rate phenomenon, this could be challenging for the business or not? Well, a couple of things. I mean,

SPEAKER_12: if you actually look at what's happened, when interest rates were actually very low, we saw 1,000% year over year growth two years straight. So growth was off the charts. When interest

SPEAKER_10: rates actually started to rise, we actually saw declines in circulation. Why? Well, it's really the price of money, the opportunity cost of money. Got it. So interest rates set a kind of cost to holding money. Ah, so the incentive matters. Yeah, the incentive matters. And so what's interesting is that if you actually look at from like December 2023, when basically the forward curve, which was sort of the kind of short-term kind of price of money, in a sense, the forward curve kind of being the market's view of the short-term price of money, when that started to fall, because the expectation of interest rates came, USDC started to grow. And actually, from the peak of whatever was five and a quarter, five and a half down to where we are, which is three and a half or whatever it is now, that's, I don't know, exact percentage. Let's call it 35, 40% decline in the interest rate. We've had a multi-hundred percent increase in the amount of USDC in circulation. And so there's an inverse correlation there. And so I've, and I've said this publicly, I've said this publicly in the media, I've said this many, many times. I have wanted, when interest rates were really high, my view is we really need

SPEAKER_12: interest rates to come down. We really need them to come down, because that will help us grow. That will put more velocity of money in place. The pie gets bigger, yeah. The pie gets bigger.

SPEAKER_10: Which also impacts adoption. It impacts adoption as well. So more people are investing capital in technology to transform their businesses, to grow. Tech on, right? And so that is a catalyst. And so my view has been that is really important. And so, you know, I think our view is there is some conceptual neutral interest rate. And given the persistence of inflation of around two and a half percent or whatever it is, some people argue, is the neutral rate, should the neutral rate and the kind of baseline of inflation be two and a half or 2.8 or whatever?

SPEAKER_73: You know where the two percent came from? I talked about it on a previous All In episode. I don't know if you've heard it. I do, but go ahead. Yeah, New Zealand. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_153: There was a politician in New Zealand who was talking to their central bank, and he's like,

SPEAKER_154: what should it be? And he's like, I think two. And he's like, yeah, how'd you come up with the number?

SPEAKER_155: It's like, my instinct. And America has been 2.8. 4% unemployment, 2% interest rates.

SPEAKER_10: Both of those are going to be challenged. Both of those are going to be challenged because of very significant technological and macro forces. Yeah, job displacement,

SPEAKER_153: globalization have had impacts on this depending on the country, the unemployment rate. And also, how many people choose to be employed? I mean, when you have a society that is doing as well as ours is or the European Union is, some people just choose to not work. I think labor participation now is 61% or 62%. And then when you and I were coming up, it had peaked at 68%, 69%. So it was like

SPEAKER_160: 15% higher. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting to think about that. Big structural changes.

SPEAKER_08: Yeah. Tether as a competitor would not be able to operate in the US. Lots of reports. I'm going to be judicious here. Claims, reports, concerns from politicians to the press and everywhere in between and regulators that they're doing some stuff in the dark areas that maybe you wouldn't want to touch in terms of the dark web, dark economy. But rumor is they're going to do a US version of Tether and maybe try to go legit and audited. How do you think about them as a competitor given that they've been banned in multiple GOs and there was some very big concerns that they might have a run because they

SPEAKER_163: weren't dollar for dollar backed and people had all kinds of claims about, hey, maybe they have Chinese paper and all these different concerns and they wouldn't do an attestation. But they would do an attestation with a bank and somewhere in the BVI that nobody's heard of and a big KPMG maybe doesn't. You seem to know a lot about this.

SPEAKER_42: I was not a tether truther, but I did go down the rabbit hole because I reported on it on the pod

SPEAKER_153: and talked about it. But they are a significant player. I'm wondering how you think about them coming to the US and becoming more legit and maybe trying to catch up with you in that way.

SPEAKER_12: I mean, look, the beauty of having the Genius Act is that it creates a level playing field. It defines a federal law that you have to come in, not just be audited, but you're regulated by, if you're large, by the national bank regulator, the OCC, which is a very serious regulator, a serious prudential regulator. And we've received conditional approval for something called First National Digital Currency Bank, which is a national trust bank that we're setting up to be part of how we operate USDC as well. But again, level playing field. If you want to comply and build

SPEAKER_10: a product under that regulatory framework, you can do that. And I think many people will. And this is like when net neutrality happened and common carrier rules came. Anybody can get into providing data services to the internet. Anyone can build these things. So that's great. And so free market, clear rules, love it. So my view is there's absolutely going to be more competition. And my view is also that the structure of this market, stable coins are network businesses, meaning they actually exist as platforms and utilities on the internet. Like the USDC and our stable coin network is literally the software protocols, but it's also the tens of thousands of applications that have integrated to

SPEAKER_12: the APIs. And every time an app integrates, you know, Cash App just said, hey, we're adding USDC support. That's great. Now all the coin base has it. Revolut has it. You know, banks have it. Visa's

SPEAKER_10: using it. Every time someone adds it, you know, Stripe merchants, Shopify merchants can use it. Every time someone adds that, it adds utility to the network and it adds network effects. And then the next developer who comes along and says, hey, I want to build an app that uses digital dollars, et cetera, which one should I use? Well, I have interoperability with all this stuff. Great. So you have these network effects that are really key. And then you also have, you know, what I call liquidity network effects, which is the ability for one to easily get it and use it within banking systems all around the world. So we've built out this incredible liquidity network by being regulated in Singapore, you know, in the UAE, in the European Union. And this is an easy thing to do. I mean, this is a huge build. Yeah. It's a huge build. And now it's at a point where- And it's defensibility. It is defensibility. And we have, you know, pipes in a sense where, you know, some of the biggest capital markets participants in the world, companies like BlackRock can enable a tokenized fund that enables USDC to come in and out of it. And their institutional participants know that'll work, right? So I think it's a long-winded answer, but the answer is essentially, we feel like we've built a great platform and a great network and we have really strong network effects and they're accelerating. And we've been publicly audited as a corporation, as a New York Stock Exchange governed, publicly listed SEC supervised company now for a period of time, but more broadly for a long time. And when companies are going to choose what they're going to build on and what they're going to use, they're going to look at all that. Yeah, the footprint matters. It does. And so the marginal value of a net new dollar stablecoin coming into the market is

SPEAKER_12: essentially zero. You need, you know, all these things are needed.

SPEAKER_47: And what do you think about this concept that everybody's going to have their own stablecoin, there'll be an Amazon one, obviously PayPal's added one. Do you think that's realistic? Or do you think people are going to be like, that's just, I might as well just use Circle?

SPEAKER_10: Yeah, I don't see that. I think this is a lot like other internet platform markets, like everyone doesn't need their own data center. Everyone didn't need their own vertical search engines. You know, everyone, you know, there's a lot of things that people thought, everyone didn't need to build their own video platform. And so internet scale utilities, you know, achieve network effects, they achieve unit economics, they achieve developer flywheels, like all these things. And they tend to lower their prices over time.

SPEAKER_12: It tends to get more and more economical and more and more capable. And so, you know,

SPEAKER_10: there's a lot one would need to do to do that. And I think even the biggest banks who have pretty big

SPEAKER_12: technology budgets may reach that same conclusion. What worries you now? What's 2026 forward looking

SPEAKER_08: like? What keeps you up at night? The opportunity is obvious, I think. You've explained it perfectly.

SPEAKER_12: Yeah, I mean, look, I think we're at an interesting place where we have a big piece of the regulatory clarity done. There are more pieces that are needed. So there's work, you know, sort of related to markets, related to how digital tokens work. That's actually really, really important because we believe in kind of tokenization as a phenomenon, smart contracts as a way that people are going to,

SPEAKER_10: like, intermediate things on the internet. So there's more that's needed there. And I think now, you know, I think one of the things that concerns me is sort of the changing geopolitical,

SPEAKER_12: geo-economic kind of landscape, right? Which is there's lots of different points of view that are being taken on kind of where economic alignment is, et cetera. And as a global company that is building technology that we want to make available globally, that introduces new complexity, right?

SPEAKER_38: Yes. We're entering an era of new alliances and national champions.

SPEAKER_194: Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_08: And you're an American company and America first. And so, yeah, you might be looked at differently

SPEAKER_196: based upon how the American, yeah, enterprises, you know, generally done.

SPEAKER_12: Yeah, that is very true. Our headquarters is Freedom Tower in New York City, you know. And and at the same time, you know, the technology of these networks, there's an opportunity actually to to develop versions of this that are more geopolitically neutral, geo-economically neutral, so that if you're from India or you're from Brazil or you're from Southeast Asia or you're from the

SPEAKER_10: Middle East, like you can build these are high growth markets that you're comfortable building on this with a variety of different nexuses of economic relationships. And so that's something we think

SPEAKER_16: about actually. Yeah, like a euro-based stable coin. We have the largest euro-based stable coin. How many currencies have you done that with so far? We've really only focused on dollars and euros.

SPEAKER_12: Why? Well, I think those are those are two widely adopted currencies for both, both as a store of value and as freely floatable, circulated, tradable currencies. And we have a big commitment to the European market. And so it's also part of just being

SPEAKER_10: committed to that market. We think it's a big opportunity. And then for everything else,

SPEAKER_86: we've really built we've built a technology stack for other stable coin issuers from other markets now

SPEAKER_102: that there's laws around the world. So if they want to do their national stable coin, absolutely centralized. Are you doing that with Bermuda or some sort of partnership?

SPEAKER_12: The Bermuda partnership is related to helping them kind of have digital dollars and have economic activity, commerce activity, treasury activity all happen on chain.

SPEAKER_205: Got it. So that's infrastructure play. I don't know what their dollar is.

SPEAKER_12: Well, they're a dollar. It's a dollar backed currency. They're already their own stable coin. Yeah. But in other places, in the Philippines or in Mexico or in Brazil or in Japan and other markets

SPEAKER_10: or Australia, Korea, there are stable coins coming. And we want to make sure that we can provide

SPEAKER_12: technology so that they can do all the same things. To the government or to banks? Well, more to the private sector because stable coins are private sector innovated. But these companies all need to be regulated by the government. They need to be following the same rules.

SPEAKER_47: So easier for you to partner with a major partner in those markets?

SPEAKER_10: Yes. Yeah. And we want to see that grow and flourish, this idea of an internet financial system

SPEAKER_12: where all the economies of the world can be on chain. And all of the contracts and financial

SPEAKER_183: contracts and markets and capital formation, lending, everything can happen on chain.

SPEAKER_06: It's obvious that small businesses and people who are very—and poker players—people who are

SPEAKER_08: concerned about their fees and are focused on that are being driven to stable coins. They get it. They're like, yeah, I'm doing my design job for—I'm a designer in the Philippines working for somebody in India or America. People are figuring it out. They're starting to figure out, hey, I don't need to pay these. And then consumers are starting to figure it out. Maybe if they're like me, a poker player,

SPEAKER_218: you're sending a lot of wires. Every year I send tons of wires back and forth for different poker games.

SPEAKER_19: Yeah. Well, now Polymark and Kalshi, both you fund your account with USDC.

SPEAKER_64: Right. Speaking of that kind of thing. And well, that's because that audience understands because they're always looking for edge. Speed, fees, yeah.

SPEAKER_08: But they're looking for edge. In a poker game, if you were a novice and I was an expert, if I was Jason Kuhn and you were Phil Hellmuth, whatever it is, it's got a bigger edge on him. It's an inside joke. Anyway, point is, you might have a 1% or 2% advantage,

SPEAKER_163: but it compounds after 100 poker games to be a bigger number.

SPEAKER_226: It does. It does.

SPEAKER_218: This is why the rake matters. And gamblers and people like to wager things.

SPEAKER_12: Well, you know who the biggest users of USDC are?

SPEAKER_218: Yeah, that's what I was kind of getting at.

SPEAKER_12: It's actually, it is a form of gamblers, which is, it's the biggest electronic markets firms in the world. Got it.

SPEAKER_10: The guys who need, they need every edge in terms of milliseconds and cost and capital efficiency

SPEAKER_12: to be able to move capital in markets. Because at the end of the day, they are algorithmically trying to figure out the very next best thing to do. Right. And if they have dollars that operate with the physics of the internet and the cost efficiency of data, they have an edge. And so they love it. They love it. And then the people who are sending money home to their family.

SPEAKER_15: They love it too.

SPEAKER_233: Yeah, because they're like, wait, I'm paying Western Union 12% of this? This is a bullshit.

SPEAKER_15: Right. They can have a wallet they directly send to their counterparty.

SPEAKER_10: And it's like, wait a minute, this literally arrived. And there's proliferation of these digital wallets now that also can, where you can hold it in USDC, but spend it through Apple Pay. That are being issued all around the world too. So people can store value in digital dollars, use it through payment terminals. And that's pretty cool too.

SPEAKER_203: What's the QuickBooks TurboTax thesis there? Because that seemed like there's something underlying that, that I wasn't getting to. I mean, it's obvious that like, okay, there's money flowing through there. But what's the big picture there?

SPEAKER_10: Well, Intuit's an amazing company. Obviously they've been around for a long time. They have

SPEAKER_12: franchises that are huge. Credit Karma is a huge franchise, actually. Huge. They're growing what they provide to people through that franchise. QuickBooks, obviously,

SPEAKER_10: we all know if you run a small business, you use QuickBooks. And actually QuickBooks, they invoice people through QuickBooks. And it's actually trillions of dollars of transactions a year that are invoiced through QuickBooks. And if you can invoice people and settle in USDC, that's better than ACH. And it's faster. And you can imagine a world where small businesses can gain an advantage from something like that. And reconciliation is so fast.

SPEAKER_240: If you're a TurboTax user and you file your taxes and you get a refund, imagine being able to get your

SPEAKER_10: refund instantly. So I think there's a lot of cool stuff. Intuit's a very innovative company. It's a

SPEAKER_12: tech company that is in these financial technology adjacencies. And so we're super excited about the

SPEAKER_203: collaboration that we have. I don't want to say there's a loser in this, but there are people

SPEAKER_08: who are going to be challenged by it. How does American Express and Bank of America look at

SPEAKER_237: Circle and stablecoins in your mind? Because they must call at some point or do they not?

SPEAKER_12: I think all of these companies have an opportunity to use this technology. They have an opportunity to

SPEAKER_10: use this technology to improve how they provide payment utility. They have an opportunity to use it if their customers want to interact with the whole on-chain economy and on-chain investments and

SPEAKER_12: what's happening there from a wealth management perspective. I eventually think that there's going to be more credit products that are actually built using stablecoins. How would that work? Well, basically- And what's the advantage? Well, so already today, there have been trillions of dollars of loans made in stablecoins through DeFi protocols. So you take your USDC and you effectively deposit it into a protocol. And on the other side of that protocol is a borrower. And you're paid an interest rate for the amount of time- You become the house. You become the bank.

SPEAKER_10: Well, the protocol does actually. I mean, these are, as someone years ago said, these are like self-driving banks, meaning it's software machines where the risk management, the collateral management, the liquidation, all of the liquidity that's there is all just smart contract machines that we can all observe in real time, perfectly auditable in real time, transparent. You don't have that with a bank. So you have a really interesting thing there. And right now, a lot of that is lending to people who are borrowing to do things like investing,

SPEAKER_16: like margin- It's like margin loans. If I own a million dollars in Bitcoin and yeah, I want to spend $100,000, but I want to liquidate any Bitcoin, somebody else can make some

SPEAKER_10: number of points. And you can borrow USDC against your Bitcoin and so on. But I think this is the early stage of that. And so I think our view is that if you have these digital cash things like USDC,

SPEAKER_12: that you can create lending protocols that are lending for, I want to hire a new employee, or I want to, I need some new equipment for my kitchen and my restaurant.

SPEAKER_10: So factoring, equipment leasing. All of these forms of lending, right, can be done. And the risk that is taken, there's real risk there, can be underwritten. And the insurance on the risks failing can be priced. And so you can build credit markets entirely in software, entirely with software machines. No storefront. AI coming into play. AI plus these sort of smart contract machines and stable coins, I think creates a really interesting little cauldron for credit market innovation. Yeah. And I have a glean in my eye, which is imagine a credit market that worked like AdWords. Imagine something that was that efficient and clear and settle credit decisions at the speed of which an auction happens for attention. And so like those kinds of things will become possible. And that probably would be pretty good for people who are on the other side of credit need.

SPEAKER_47: Yeah. If you think about also monetary velocity and the economy, you can get more things moving, more jobs created, more chances, more swings at bat, more shots on goal.

SPEAKER_10: So money velocity increases. And I think these kinds of credit intermediation models powered by AI and blockchain networks can actually further increase money velocity. And we have a mission statement to increase global economic prosperity through the frictionless exchange of value. That is literally our mission statement. And that people, a lot of times they think exchange of value means like, oh, like making a payment. No. Value exchange is the sort of time value of money transformation.

SPEAKER_12: And it's sort of, I have value I don't need right now. You have a need for that value. And I'm going to use time to transform that and then create new things from it. And that's where actual growth comes from. So that's what we want to see.

SPEAKER_73: One of the interesting things since we're here talking politics at Davos, you and I are talking tech,

SPEAKER_153: but politics is one of the big topics here. So we'll sort of end on that a little bit and get your ideas and your thoughts on it. There's a movement towards socialism in New York City, my hometown. It's kind of heartbreaking for me to watch. California is seizing the billionaire's assets, literally asking them to write down and audit everything they own, put a value on the painting or the piece of jewelry they bought for their spouse. And yeah, we'll just take 5% of it once. And they lost 200 billionaires and a trillion dollars worth of... And they don't seem to have any problem with it. As a technologist, a builder, and a capitalist, as long as I've known you, what do you think about this moment in time us Gen Xers are living and watching this socialist movement?

SPEAKER_272: That's interesting. I just moved to New York City just in time.

SPEAKER_273: Just in time, yeah. By the way, that's costing you, I think you're going to have to pay 2% more a year. But I don't think you're an income guy. I think you're more of a cap gains guy.

SPEAKER_19: Yeah. Look, here's what I would say is, and actually, I was with Dario from Anthropic a

SPEAKER_12: couple of times over the past couple of days. And he obviously talks a lot about the economic disruption, labor market disruption, what's going to happen with AI. He's not a doomer, but he has deep concerns. He has deep concerns. And I also do, which is when I look at the very positive thing, which is that I think we're going to see an

SPEAKER_10: acceleration of GDP growth. Pick your time frame, 3, 5, 10, 15 years. We're going to see, I think, an extraordinary period of economic growth acceleration.

SPEAKER_12: Even more than the internet and PCs. More than the internet and PCs. This is a very, very, very big transformation. But where most of the labor is actually executed by AI machines, and the capital accrues to the capital owners. And that's just kind of there in front of us. Yeah. It's the fundamental nature of capitalism. Fundamental nature. And I think that is just going to challenge us in ways that we haven't

SPEAKER_10: dealt with in a long time, since other periods.

SPEAKER_12: Labor was necessary for capital to succeed. That's right. Yeah. The industrial revolution was mechanized human labor. This is mechanized AI.

SPEAKER_08: And by the way, the CEO job seems like ripe for AI doing a better job than we would do at times,

SPEAKER_69: right? I don't know if you've- I use AI all the time. And my employees- And do you ask it?

SPEAKER_287: I don't know if they realize what they're interacting with.

SPEAKER_16: No, but I mean, literally when I was talking to Brian from Coinbase, our friend,

SPEAKER_203: he said he's got all of his data into a proprietary LLM internally. He said this on the program,

SPEAKER_08: I'm not speaking out of school. And that he asks it, what do I need to know about my organization? It's like, oh, there's non-consensus about this important issue in the corner over here. And he's like,

SPEAKER_203: I didn't know that. Like, whoa, was that a coach? Or is that like a parallel, like another CEO? Is

SPEAKER_294: it a duplicate CEO? Did you clone yourself? It's like, how do you think about that?

SPEAKER_19: I mean, I think about it all the time. I'm pushing very hard to encourage that we

SPEAKER_12: are all inside of Circle doing more with AI. We're making sure, obviously with safety and compliance in mind because we're a regulated company. Commissions matter. Yeah. So there's a lot of work. We invest a lot in that. But nonetheless, creating the avenues so that that awareness and understanding can be there. And that as leaders, we can turn to that. I put a Slack post in a Slack channel recently that sort of said, if you want to become a great manager at Circle, probably one of

SPEAKER_10: the best things that you can learn how to do is manage AI. And so, you know, invest in how you manage AI and AI agents. Actually, that's how you might actually become a better manager and leader

SPEAKER_08: through that. And I mean that. It is one of the, if you think about the tasks of these product managers who would run the stand-ups or, you know, your mid-level manager historically, it's to keep tabs on a group of people and their targets and their timeframes and who's excelling and who's got

SPEAKER_42: blockers. AI is kind of better suited for that. Really good. And so, a great middle manager, which is a derogatory term, but let's just say it used the word manager. A great manager should be able to manage 10 groups using, say, Claude's co-worker. I don't know. Have you been playing with

SPEAKER_301: it yet? It's incredible. It's really incredible. I mean, it's out a week and I'm like, I'm sitting

SPEAKER_86: there like… We haven't deployed that inside the company yet, but I've outside looked at it.

SPEAKER_12: Yeah. What impresses you about that? I mean, look, the ability to take tasks that I have to do and just teach them and then it just can do them is extraordinary. And I'm trying to get this deployed in my household too, but it's really amazing.

SPEAKER_303: Interesting way to do it is because I went down this rabbit hole, like estate management stuff,

SPEAKER_08: when you have to deal with this, when you get a second home or however many you wind up having. Notion is, I think, the best solution right now because Notion put AI into it. Do you use Slack

SPEAKER_203: personally too for your domestic affairs? I don't have a domestic Slack.

SPEAKER_08: Okay. I have a domestic Slack and a domestic Notion. So I took the stack from the office and I just did it at home. And what that did for us was the people who bridge the family office and this, they know the same tool stack. Then Notion has been investing in their AI so much that when you do

SPEAKER_203: a query, like an AI query of your Notion and you're like, hey, this house with this HVAC, you know, this issue, it's like, bloop, answer. You know, like, oh my God, that would have taken

SPEAKER_08: like three phone calls in an hour. And I think it's going to change everything about how we work.

SPEAKER_313: Yeah. What else did Dario think? I think I might have cut you off before you-

SPEAKER_60: Yeah, I mean, look, I think the big picture there was just like, whatever your politics are,

SPEAKER_12: whatever you think about taxes, whatever you think about the social contract, all that's, I think, in the coming years going to kind of have to get thought about again. Yeah. In different ways. And I don't think it's going to, it's not going to be the straightforward answers that we've turned to. No. It can't be. And so that's why I, you know, my answer is like, yeah, there's things California, New York, et cetera, are doing. But I think when we look at that in comparison to the broader political economy that we're going to have in front of us, those will seem modest in comparison

SPEAKER_153: to what we've got to think about. By the way, we fixed it in startup land long ago. It's called stock options. And if you look at the Trump accounts, which Invest America, Michael Dell did and Brad Gerstner and a number of our friends, if the 42% of Americans who don't

SPEAKER_42: own an equity and, you know, are not part of that, let's just say it's 50 because some of them own them kind of passively. Hey, half the country doesn't own equities. If everybody had equities in a superannuation fund like they have in Australia and they're watching them go up,

SPEAKER_322: then you're not like, well, screw those guys at Amazon and Apple and Google.

SPEAKER_324: Being stakeholders in the success of this technological transformation is critical.

SPEAKER_42: Yeah. That would, I think, solve so much of the problem. Jeremy, I could talk to you for hours. You and I have talked for hours in our lifetime about all these paradigms. Continued success.

SPEAKER_203: Thank you, Jason. And it's just a pleasure to spend time with you. It's always like one of the

SPEAKER_328: great discussions I have. It's awesome. I can't believe it. George Kurtz is here. He's the CEO and co-founder of CrowdStrike. This is your second Davos. Yes. Why are you at Davos? Obviously,

SPEAKER_331: everybody knows CrowdStrike. We'll get into it. Why are you spending the week at Davos?

SPEAKER_334: Well, I have all the world leaders here and all the best company CEOs are here. So really, it would take me a year of activity and flying around the globe to meet all the people that I need to meet. And it's just a fantastic opportunity to meet customers and get business done.

SPEAKER_335: Yeah. It's efficient. Very efficient. It's this tiny little ski town. It's not fancy at all. This

SPEAKER_338: is in Aspen. And everybody's within five blocks once you get through security. Speaking of security,

SPEAKER_328: AI has had, or is going to have, I want to get your opinion on this, a profound impact on defense and also offense, black hat, white hat, everything in between. What is the attack vector that AI is most

SPEAKER_334: effective at sitting here in 2026? Well, there's a couple of different areas. One is if we think about the adversaries, I kind of create a pyramid where you've got nation state at the top, very sophisticated, but less of them. The middle band of the pyramid, okay, is e-crime. More of them, a little less sophisticated than the top. And then the bottom is just hacktivism. Okay. So essentially, you're minting new adversaries because you don't have to have all the knowledge that you had to have in the past. You can ask any number of LLMs and you can get answers back. So what's happened is the attack timeline has been compressed. You can automate all of these sort of attacks and you can do it with a level of sophistication that looks like a nation state. That's one of the greatest areas of exposure is the speed and the sophistication has dramatically increased. Because the answers have

SPEAKER_39: been compiled. Yeah. The scenarios can be run even by somebody who is a level six hacker out of 10.

SPEAKER_338: I'm just making a number up here and they can become an eight. So just like a developer using

SPEAKER_328: a co-pilot goes from being an average developer to an above average, the same thing is happening

SPEAKER_334: with hackers. Absolutely. And one of the things that we're seeing is autonomous malware. So most people are probably familiar with malware, runs on your computer. Typically people would use antivirus to protect against that malware. But what we're seeing now is prompt only autonomous malware. Meaning I can drop the prompt on your computer by a variety of means. And then it will autonomously interact with an LLM. And it will give a unique fingerprint every time it runs. So your computer is different than the next guy's. You have different data. And it will begin to prompt its way to getting to what it needs without ever phoning home to someone controlling it. Oh, wow. So just to unpack that

SPEAKER_39: and translate it, I did a little hacking in my day in the eighties. Okay. A little phone freaking mainly. Okay. We'll get into it offline. All right. Haze modems. I had a Haze 2400, guilty as charged. I started with the Ventel 300 bod. I think we're of the same era. I had a 300 Haze.

SPEAKER_355: You had the 300 Haze. It was a tank. It literally had such a great form factor that's never been repeated. It's great like rectangle. But we're old. But we are old. People are now saying,

SPEAKER_338: hey, I'm going to use the Comet browser by perplexity. ChatGPT's got a browser. Claude has an extension. And it's really wonderful to say, hey, get all my emails from LinkedIn and then put that into a database and add it to my CRM. Wonderful. You watch it work. Get me the cheapest flight. The same thing can be used by an adversary to get on your computer. And one of the great ways is detection in security. You're in the business of detecting the attacker. But what you've just informed me, which kind of blew my mind, even though it's completely obvious, is the LLM could say,

SPEAKER_358: I'm going to do a thousand attacks today and I'm going to make each one different and unique.

SPEAKER_359: And unique. Absolutely. They're unique. So scary.

SPEAKER_334: They're not actually code because they're prompts. Right. And traditionally, malware would phone home. They would be like a tether. Right. So you'd always be able to see the signature of something phoning home. Now these can run autonomously without ever phoning home.

SPEAKER_363: Like a sleeper agent. You drop them into America. 20 years later, they start pursuing,

SPEAKER_338: but they never have to return to base. Exactly. How does one counter that? Well, you need AI to counter it.

SPEAKER_334: OK. And I mean, that's been a big part of the success at CrowdStrike. When I started the company, I found it in 2011. It was using, we'll say AI, but machine learning at the time to detect malware that's never been seen before. Now, obviously that's evolved into Gen AI and really leveraging basically the large data set that we have that we've amassed over 14 years to train our own models, to be able to counteract with the speed that you need, what the adversary is doing. So we took, if you think about it, there's only a few ways to break into a bank. I'll use this analogy, right? You can drive there. You can walk there. You can use a gun. You can blow the safe. But at the end of the day, you got to get the money and you got to get out. Yeah. And these, it's the same way in the computer world. There's certain we call indicators of attack. We've trained our models to look for these. So it doesn't matter kind of what you look like or what car you're driving. We can identify that. A big part of our success has been the AI we've built over the years with this tremendous data set. Yeah. So you might be able to get into the bank,

SPEAKER_370: but at some point you got to leave with the diamonds and you got to get to the safe. Exactly.

SPEAKER_39: That's where you can catch them. Exactly. You mentioned state actors

SPEAKER_338: and you mentioned for profit. When we look at a country like North Korea, they need revenue. Yep. Hacking is a pretty great revenue source. They were even using AI, my understanding, and I'm sure you've been following this, to get developer jobs in the United States,

SPEAKER_00: convince Americans to put laptops in their homes so that they could remote work. Talk to me about

SPEAKER_363: that attack factor, actually infiltrating companies as employees because of this remote work nonsense.

SPEAKER_334: Well, we were one of the first to ever find that. So we were actually going through developing some new AI algorithms. Yeah. And we saw something that was called signal, which basically strips the noise from the signal. And we saw the signal and we said, this is really weird. And we investigated it and we said, okay, this looks like somebody using remote tools to, you know, what's going on here. And we went further and then we said, we think it's North Korea. And we think that it's an employee or the company thinks it's an employee. So when the R and D team came back to me, they said, okay, we want to notify our customers and we want to say, we think we found this, but we have to tell them that the employee that they think is an employee isn't really their employee.

SPEAKER_377: Yeah. The phone calls coming from inside the building.

SPEAKER_334: Exactly. So for us, it was, you know, when, when you have a piece of malware, it's like, okay, that's bad. You can detect it. But when you have to tell a company that their employee may not be their employee, there's, you know, you have to be gentle, like you have to be gentle.

SPEAKER_39: It's you're letting them know just how incompetent they are when it comes to security. I said it,

SPEAKER_334: not you. Okay. Well, it, it, it's hard to find these guys, but in any event, we, we found 40 of them. We were right for that. That's for the first run. We found hundreds now over hundreds in America.

SPEAKER_25: Yeah. Now they were doing it. My understanding is for the high paying salary to fund stuff in North Korea. Is that correct or not? They were doing it to get trade secrets. They were, they were doing

SPEAKER_334: it to buy access. Why, why break in when you can just log in? You know, so it's a lot easier to get somebody hired. So true story. So we, we actually say, we think this employee is not an employee company investigated. They investigate it and they go, yeah, you were right. I said, well, tell me the story. And they said, well, we, we went to this person's boss and we said, we don't think that's, that's a real person. And they went through all the reasons why. Finally, they said, it's, you know, we think it's a North Korean and the guy, his boss said, well, do we have to get rid of him?

SPEAKER_388: Cause he did such good work. Oh my Lord. So the value of a top tier developer is so high

SPEAKER_391: that you'll take a spy. Yeah, exactly. You know, we kind of need him to ship. Yeah. He was doing such good work. He was, he was shipping. This is one of our best

SPEAKER_338: performance. What now? I mean, remote work has opened up so many factors. You believe in remote

SPEAKER_349: work. Do you support it in the company? We do. Yeah. We started the company in a remote first,

SPEAKER_392: but this opens up all these attack vectors. Well, even without remote, well,

SPEAKER_334: best practice really. And what we see companies doing is we'll take a simple one, meet whoever you hire. Wow. Shocking. Shocking. But you know, with COVID and remote work and things of that nature, there's a lot of people that get hired that people never met. And you know, you never see them on the screen and, but the work would get done, you know, emails would get written and then, you know, these things happen. So what we're seeing now is the best companies are actually embedding a security person in the HR group where they're pre-filtering all these resumes. Cause the resumes are AI generated, the LinkedIn profiles are AI generated. So you want to catch them upfront rather than in the interview. Here's a crazy idea. Hey,

SPEAKER_338: for your final interview, can we fly in or Hey, week one, you're going to be at HQ. That's it. That's it. You solved the whole problem. Cause then they don't take the job. They move on to the next person. That's it. Okay. So we're looking at state actors, Russia, still number one state

SPEAKER_334: actor, China, Russia. I mean, it depends. Like if you, you know, pure intelligence and pure ability, Russia, Russia. Why are they so good? I mean, like the cold war you could say is over, but you have really smart people that went to work in various areas, right? Obviously from a nation state, but also from an e-crime perspective, um, they're smart. They know what they're doing. Typically they're, they're what we call low and slow. The Chinese over the years have been a little bit noisy, kind of a smash and grab. They've gotten better. Um, not subtle, not subtle, but much better now, but the Russians are very targeted. They're patient and, um, they're not always gathering IP information to steal it, but they're, they're gathering intelligence for reconnaissance, for nation state activities and, or then they moonlight for, you know, for e-crime.

SPEAKER_328: And let's go to China then. This is, you know, we were sitting here 10 years ago. We'd be talking Kumbaya, China. We're all going to win together. Uh, the decoupling has happened essentially.

SPEAKER_338: Do you have operations there? Do you work with Chinese companies?

SPEAKER_334: We don't have, we don't have operations there. We don't have any revenue. We don't sell into China. Never have, never have from the start of the start of the company.

SPEAKER_328: And what's your take on the decoupling? Let's go a little geopolitical here. Like they are our adversary, obviously competitor, you know, their technical ability is pretty strong. We're seeing

SPEAKER_409: that with AI. Are they the, the future competitor and the future attack vector that you have to worry

SPEAKER_334: about China? Well, I don't know that the future, cause I think it's already there. And it's been here for the last, you know, 20 plus years. I mean, some of it may not have been talked about in the early days, but they're, they're very, very prolific. They're very good. And you know, it's one of those areas, obviously nation state is always going to be nation state versus nation state. You know, that just happens. The big thing with China is there's a commercial aspect to what they do. So if the government breaks in and steals a trade secret from some company in the U S they'll just give it to another company in China. Right. That doesn't happen

SPEAKER_415: necessarily with all nation states. Yeah. We're certainly not breaking into China to steal their

SPEAKER_328: trade secrets. It's going and giving them to a U S company. Yeah. The CIA is not breaking in to, to figure out what BYD is doing to give it to Tesla or something. Correct. So it's, it's a one

SPEAKER_338: way relationship there. Now there's also something very unique. They make hardware. They ship a lot of

SPEAKER_328: hardware, our laptops in some cases, Huawei, other countries. They're putting spyware or backdoors

SPEAKER_359: into all that hardware. Yeah. In your estimation. I mean, over the years, there's certainly been cases

SPEAKER_334: where people have had concerns on, you know, what was actually shipped and supply chain is, can be problematic, whether it's actually shipped with something or, you know, in some cases, packages get diverted somewhere else. The malware gets installed and it gets reshipped out. Right. So you've seen that. So it's important like to have a good hygiene on whatever equipment is being brought in. And you know, the provenance of that manufacturer and that software that goes on it. And that,

SPEAKER_421: that applies really around the world. Do you trust signal and, uh, your iPhone to protect you

SPEAKER_409: as a corporate executive? Like what measures do you take? Well, cause you're a target. Yeah,

SPEAKER_359: we're target. I mean, we, our team spends a lot of time making sure that we try to do the right

SPEAKER_425: things. Uh, you know, what's that signal? What about those two? You think those are attack

SPEAKER_359: vectors that people can do insertions there? Well, I, you know, I think you have to look at the privacy versus the, the actual attack vector. You know, if you're clicking on links that are in

SPEAKER_334: different, you know, cause you've got a link and signal doesn't mean the link is secure, whether it could be signal or something else. Right. So there's a lot of ways to get implants on these devices. I mean, I would say, you know, an iPhone is more, is safer than just a regular computer because of the way it runs. Um, but you know, if you look at the nation states and some of the creative ways they can actually get into a phone, as an example, if they want to get in bad

SPEAKER_328: enough, they're going to get in. How do they get in? What's, what's the attack vector? They get you to click on a link, they insert something. That's the typical one. Yeah. Typically what they'll do

SPEAKER_334: in there is there's a whole, uh, black or gray market on the value of a zero day. So there are zero days in all software. And if you have one, say for Apple iOS, that's super valuable. And generally if you click on something and it's not known zero day, you just by going to a browser, explain in plain English to the audience, what a zero day is a zero day is a, yeah, sorry. You know, we're talking

SPEAKER_432: technical jargon. Not everybody's got the hacker. I know not everybody's a haze guy, but yeah,

SPEAKER_334: if there is a software vulnerability that hasn't been found and patched, it means that they can exploit that and then they can run code. And in some cases in the past, um, there was a vulnerability where they could simply send you an SMS message. Like you didn't even know, you didn't have to click on anything, but the SMS message would process this information and then they would put an implant

SPEAKER_328: on the phone. Biometrics, two factor. This has changed everything in the industry and made it

SPEAKER_366: much more secure, secure, but not much more. Yeah. If you look at a lot of the attacks,

SPEAKER_334: their identity based attacks. And what you see is that even when you have a credential or if you steal a credential, uh, or if you have a session token, which means that you've already authenticated. Yeah. Right. So even if you have two factor, if you have the session token, yeah, you can replay that and get access to a system. The crypto people learn this the hard way. Yeah. They basically were

SPEAKER_328: using two factor over SMS. People call the phone company. Yep. Reset the SIM. Yep. And then they gotcha. And game over. Yeah. Game over. Now your Bitcoin wallet is emptied. Correct. Where there's money, the hackers will go figure out a way. They figured out and the humans are normally the, the,

SPEAKER_338: the, uh, weakest link. Yeah. You know, the way I was able to get my first exploit was I called the New York public library. I knew they had like a VAX system with the dial up. Okay. And I just said,

SPEAKER_00: Hey, uh, it's Joe from it at the 34th street branch. Yeah. I need the number for the dial up. Yeah. Literally. The person gave it to me at it over the phone. They want to be helpful.

SPEAKER_363: I dialed it and then I can search the stack. There you go. Search all the books. That was the only thing you could do. What year was this? 87. Okay. Yeah. I was at Fordham and they had Bitnet. They had the internet there and I was just starting to see these things, but it's almost

SPEAKER_00: universally that calling somebody on the phone, meeting somebody, compromising somebody. That's it.

SPEAKER_384: That's it. Normally the, the weaknesses between the keyboard and the chair,

SPEAKER_00: the keyboard and the chair. What is the best practice then for you when you're advising your

SPEAKER_455: customers, uh, explaining to them just how the human factors part of this is the most important

SPEAKER_334: one to focus on? Well, there's certainly an educational element and you also have to look at how people get paid in the motivation. So typically they're going to call a help desk. Okay. How does a help desk get paid and what are their metrics? Their metrics is get a call, open a ticket and close it as quick as you can. The incentive is speed. Right. Particularly if it's a third party. Oh, in another country. Right. So their, their whole job is to open a ticket, solve a problem, close the ticket. So if you follow the money and the incentives, you can see why there's a problem and people want to be helpful at the help desk and hence they get into the situation. So, um, you know, first start with the education piece and then having the right controls, identity protection, things like what CrowdStrike bills is going to be additive to making sure those

SPEAKER_459: sort of things don't happen. People using their own devices, bring your own device. This is the other major attack vector of corporations make the mistake on you. Yes. Um, that, you know,

SPEAKER_334: your own device could be like, uh, assess pool if you let your kids, you know, use it. Um, or it could be pretty good, but that's the reason why now there's enterprise browsers to kind of contain what people do. Even if you bring your own device. Yeah. The enterprise browser is running

SPEAKER_461: on a virtual machine at some headquarters. You provide that kind of situation. Um, that,

SPEAKER_359: that's sort of the old school way of doing it. So what we've done, we actually just acquired a

SPEAKER_465: company, uh, called Seraphic. I saw that explain to me the state of the art there. Yeah. So the

SPEAKER_334: state of the art is not switching out a browser because if you use comment or, you know, Firefox or whatever you want to use the browser you have. So it's actually running beneath the browser in, and it will support any browser, which basically looks at the interaction with the browser is doing. And if there's sort of malicious activity in the browser, or there's an identity that's compromised, you can stop it at the browser and you can wall off what you do with the browser, including what data you take out of it. So it's, it's the front door now for how people work and how

SPEAKER_467: adversaries get in us through the browser. How should companies implementing AI in the enterprise,

SPEAKER_328: putting their data into these clouds and working with partners, uh, Claude co-worked this week, kind of blew people's mind. I don't know if you saw the announcement or played with it.

SPEAKER_415: Yeah. And, uh, I was using it earlier this week and I'm authenticating,

SPEAKER_471: Gmail, Notion, oh yeah, my desktop files. And I got like halfway through this. And I was like, this probably isn't a good idea, but they can be pretty slow. Well, let me, let me tell you a story, not specific to that, but, um, we don't want to throw them under the bus, but it was a lot of

SPEAKER_334: authentications I did. Exactly. Exactly. They're doing great work, but, um, there, there was a, uh, a customer who basically created a whole suite of AI agents to help their automation, their IT department, right? So they had one agent that was looking for sort of IT problems, software bugs, and it, it found something, you know, while the code was being before it was committed. So the agent said, Hey, I found this bug. I want to fix it, but it didn't have access to fix it. So it, it went to the Slack channel that had the other 99 agents and said, Hey, does any other agent have access to this thing? Because I need it fixed. And there was an agent that raised his hand and said, Oh, I have access and I can fix it. Do you see how scary this is? These two agents are reasoning and they went right

SPEAKER_429: around the guardrails that were put in place. This is unintended consequences. And these LLMs are

SPEAKER_338: essentially guessing what you want them to do. They're reasoning it. Oh, it is reasonable for me to go ask for help. Right. It is reasonable for me to give help. Now, what if it pushes the wrong code? What if it makes a mistake? And then how do you ever track that down? Who's monitoring these agents?

SPEAKER_479: The agent technology has unlimited upside, but my Lord, you're going to be in business for a long

SPEAKER_384: time. Well, this is it. It's called AIDR. AIDR. Yeah. AI detection and response. Got it.

SPEAKER_334: So there's a concept that's been around that we helped pioneer, which is really endpoint detection and response. So on your computer, most companies have it. You can monitor and see what's happening and prevent bad things from happening. We have to do that now with an agent. And this is why it's a huge opportunity for us because on average, each employee is going to have about 90 agents they control. So we're going to have protection and visibility across all of those agents, whether it's from a third party or whether it's a homegrown agent. And that, you know,

SPEAKER_409: is a massive TAM opportunity for us. Do you trust the LLM operators with CrowdStrike's data

SPEAKER_334: or do you want to stand up your own large language models? We, well, we have our small language models and we do work with just about all of the large language models. But we've built our own guardrails around what gets shared, how it gets shared and how we process any of the data back. The key...

SPEAKER_479: Are you concerned about it? I can see you're kind of like thinking like, hmm, yeah, like maybe there

SPEAKER_334: are some concerns here. No, no, there is. But we tried to engineer for that. Got it. Right. Because you want to leverage and this is the thing, you know, it's tokenomics. There's an economics to how you use the tokens as well. Plus you want to get the right data. So we've built small language models for things that we control with our data and then for other bigger, you know, frontier type models. I mean, you're not going to replicate billions in R and D. You want to leverage what's out there and take the best of it. Yeah. You're also a race car driver.

SPEAKER_363: Yes. And, hey, you've done well in your life. You got to buy a piece of an F1 team. I've been going to F1 races. I went to three this year. Okay. Tell me everything about it. Where do you want

SPEAKER_39: to start? How did you get the bug? When did you get the bug? Because this has been an American thing in the last couple of years. I can't believe the rack at these F1, you, well, you guys are doing. Somehow you made this the most important thing in America ever. I tried to survive.

SPEAKER_338: That is a big driver. And then it's a luxury experience. So now I've gone to, what did I do? Miami, Austin and Vegas. I've been to three in the last year. Okay.

SPEAKER_334: I hadn't even heard about it five years ago. That's fantastic. Well, I mean, a little backdrop. I grew up, I had zero money as a kid. I always liked. Where'd you grow up? New Jersey. Oh, really? I grew up in Brooklyn. Yeah. We used to play Fordham. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, um, I always liked cars and fast things and never had the opportunity to do that. First car?

SPEAKER_363: First car was a Toyota Celica. Toyota Celica. Yeah. 73 Mustang, Grande, 351 Cleveland. Okay. 351

SPEAKER_400: Cleveland engine and slightly more horsepower than yours. I know. Mine was just a, I had a commute in

SPEAKER_334: the thing. Yeah. Okay. It's functional. It worked. It's functional. Yeah. But, um, so I never had the opportunity to do it. And then I got into, I mean, I always followed sports racing. Mostly it was indie. And then, you know, got into racing later. We talk about that, but I've been in formula one since 2018 because CrowdStrike became, well, Mercedes became a customer of CrowdStrike. Nice. And then I met Toto Wolf who runs a team and he said, Hey, why don't you think about working with this? You got in at the right time. Yeah. That was a good trade. It was a good trade. So we got in then. And then, um, over the years I built a great relationship. And then just last, uh, fall, I put a deal together and own

SPEAKER_479: 5% of the Mercedes team now. Congrats. Yeah. And now you ride yourself. You're in the bronze league, I hear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_334: So I race, uh, in fact, I got to go back for a race in Daytona. Nice. I've got the 24 hours. What do you drive? What kind of car? Uh, LMP2. Explain what it is. Uh, it's a, it's a full fledged race car. I mean, it looks like a, like an F1 car with, with, with, with covers

SPEAKER_511: over the wheels. Got it. So it's safer. Yeah. What do you think of this new Corvette ZRX one?

SPEAKER_512: Have you seen this beast? I'm trying to get one. Yeah. It's fantastic. I know. I got a contact. Okay.

SPEAKER_295: At GM. Everybody's got a guy. They, they gave me an E-Ray to play with. Yeah. Which is kind of the precursors. You know, they took the E-Ray and they put it in the ZRX one. Yeah. And, uh,

SPEAKER_39: my Lord off the line, it's like having the Tesla acceleration off the line. And then you have the, you know, 600 in that one, I think it was 600 horsepower plus 150. You got about 800.

SPEAKER_515: This new one, it's a thousand horsepower plus 250. It didn't cost $200,000. And for the money,

SPEAKER_334: it's, it's, it's, it's a tremendous car. And you know, I, I still think to this day, I mean, someone will keep me honest that the ZR one will, and we'll still have a warranty, even if you track it. Really? Yeah. It's one of the rare cars. At least it used to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_338: They said you can take the ZR one in the, with the E-Ray version, you could change the driver profile,

SPEAKER_328: lower the RPMs, you know, the, when it shifts and everything. So you can actually talk on the phone, you know, and have a conversation and not make the passenger throw up. You want to hear the engine. I think that's right. I had a C6 convertible in that generation, which was just

SPEAKER_358: dynamite. Canary yellow. What color are you looking at? This is where we're going to get real. You saw that crazy green. I like the blue. You like the blue. Yeah. Beautiful. They, they have like a, a really beautiful, vibrant blue. Yeah. That's a, I was looking at the silver and I don't usually like silver on cars, but it looks on that car. It looks tremendous. I keep all my Mercedes silver.

SPEAKER_363: You do? Yeah. Interesting. All right. Listen, the question everybody wants to know,

SPEAKER_523: Greenland, what should we pay? You know, how do we make a deal? I'm sure, I'm sure there's lots of deals that's above my pay grade, but I think whenever you see the geopolitical tensions go up,

SPEAKER_334: there's always more security activities. So it's a good, it's good for business. So

SPEAKER_25: seems like something we should, the Trump administration is spicy on the margins. You

SPEAKER_529: may have seen, uh, but they've been good for business. Yeah. Supportive of the business community.

SPEAKER_359: I think so. And you know, when you think about what the administration is doing with security,

SPEAKER_334: they're taking a business first approach. You know what that means? They want to save money. They want to consolidate. They want platforms. They want better outcomes, right? And they don't

SPEAKER_475: want this piecemeal buying across the government. So absolutely. I think they're doing a great job

SPEAKER_338: on security. I've been asking people's perceptions and it's overwhelmingly been, yeah, they're calling us up there. They're at the table, they're engaged. So whatever you think

SPEAKER_532: politically, you know, all these cultural issues, they're listening and they're engaging the business community, which I think is a great thing. All right, brother, thanks for doing it.

SPEAKER_533: Thank you so much. Talk soon. Transportation, of course, is one of the most important

SPEAKER_00: parts, uh, in the business sector and VTOLs. We're promised flying cars. We still don't have them, but my guest today, who's spoken and is a friend of the all in podcast, uh, is going to tell us how close we are to getting rid of these noisy helicopters buzzing around and having VTOLs, nice and quiet ones. Adam Goldstein, CEO of Archer Aviation. Welcome back to all in. Thank you. Good to be here. Two years ago, you were at the summit. You promised us we'd get flying cars. When can, I mean, that's, let's just get to breast tax. This is all anybody wants to know. When can I go from Manhattan to JFK? When can I go from San Francisco to Oakland airport? When is this going to happen? And is it going to happen in the United States first? Or is it going to happen in the UAE or Saudi or maybe China?

SPEAKER_540: The hardest part about bringing these aircraft to market are, is the certification. Like we have to prove that these aircrafts are really safe. It's not, you can't blame the regulators. It's not a regulatory thing. They actually have to be very safe and reliable. So the rules got put in place, but the most important thing that happened in the most recent history was that President Trump issued an executive order that was fast tracking the program through the regulators and really starting to create a platform for us to launch. And so they are now five cities going to be announced in the first quarter. And then we'll start flying in the summer. And that will be the first time you'll see these aircrafts flying in around the cities on a regular basis. That will allow the general public to get comfortable with this. And they will certify us sometime after that, because the political side of this is not a Democratic Republican thing. It's a consumers have to feel comfortable with this. They have to work with this. And so we don't want to be fighting that. And so they're giving us a

SPEAKER_328: chance to go do that. Okay. So it's 2026. We're sitting here January of 2026. You guys are going to announce five cities? The government will, DOT will. Oh, here in the United States, they're going to, and these are for all veto companies, Joby, yourself, all the contemporaries will get to do

SPEAKER_363: those five cities first. Correct. You got any guesses of what they could be? What are people thinking?

SPEAKER_540: And how are they selecting them? Well, my big push has been around Huntington Beach in right around Los Angeles, because you live there. I don't, but we won the exclusive for the LA 28 Olympics. And so that was a big deal for us. So we need to start trial operations, really ramping up the ops, because

SPEAKER_550: it's challenging. We also recently bought the Hawthorne airports right outside of LAX to help

SPEAKER_552: give us a hub. Ortho on the private, I've flown out of it many times. Exactly. So that's humble brag. It's a, it's a great platform. You bought it. Wait, let's just let this soak in folks. Archer

SPEAKER_556: Aviation bought an airport. We did. Can you just buy airports? It's a privately owned enterprise,

SPEAKER_540: Hawthorne. What did that cost you? Yeah, you can, it's, I'll call it a sort of buy it. You can

SPEAKER_550: control it. So there's a runway that's owned by the municipality. There's all the property around it. And then there's the control of the master lease. It is very hard to do. They come up for sale every 50 years. So if you look back, what did that cost you? It's around $170 million for everything,

SPEAKER_442: including the FBO and all the real estate around it. So you own all the real estate. That's got some

SPEAKER_00: residual value. Right. But this gives you a massive opportunity because Los Angeles is, yeah, known for its traffic. So that would be a place where you could have a home base for these?

SPEAKER_550: Exactly. It also happens to be home to a lot of the Elon companies. And so it borders SpaceX. The original Boring Tunnel was there. Tesla Design Center is there. You have a lot of good connectivity around people trying to change the, you know, the future of transportation.

SPEAKER_565: Oh yes. I'm sorry. I was thinking Van Nuys. Hawthorne in the south. Yeah.

SPEAKER_328: Funny story. Name drop. Elon was like, hey, I'm thinking about renting a place for my rocket ship company before it had a name. Want to come down and see it. I went down to see it. It was at Hawthorne. And I said, he had just gotten the Falcon. And I said, can you land the Falcon here?

SPEAKER_338: He said, yeah. I said, get this office space immediately. So you own the SpaceX office or

SPEAKER_556: you're the... That's on the other side of the fence. Got it. And so we have the airport side. They have some hangers. What a perfect location. Because if memory serves me, it's just south of LAX.

SPEAKER_550: Yeah. About two miles from LAX, about two miles from SoFi Stadium. So the goal is to make that a

SPEAKER_571: hub of Los Angeles. Imagine a Grand Central type of facility. Yeah. You go down to San Diego, Laguna, just so many places to the south, Manhattan Beach. And let's push our imagination here.

SPEAKER_540: Boring Company is also based there too. And so maybe we can convince Elon to start digging some holes around LA. Yeah. And all of a sudden you could really transform LA. What do you think the other

SPEAKER_575: cities will be in America? And how are they picking them? Well, FA and DOT are going to be the ones that choose.

SPEAKER_540: Okay. So the companies have submitted, in partnership with the cities, these different bids. And I think it's going to be a mix of urban areas, rural areas. I think it's probably going to

SPEAKER_550: be a lot of red states you'll see. So my guess is you'll see something in Texas. You'll probably see something in Florida. Maybe you'll see something in New York. Red states because Trump's a Republican

SPEAKER_213: or because they're easier when it comes to regulations? I think both. It's also just easier to operate.

SPEAKER_540: Got it. And so if you want to land a helicopter in California, there's a lot of rules. You want to land one in Texas. You put it on the grass wherever you want. You know, it's interesting when I got my ranch

SPEAKER_431: in Texas, they were like, this is a perfect place to put a helipad. And I was like, hell yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_363: Like you can really put a pad down and they're like, yeah, it's your ranch. You can do whatever

SPEAKER_338: you want. Now in LA, it used to be that people would land helicopters in their backyards. I don't know when that stopped, but what are the rules in LA now? Each municipality has different rules around,

SPEAKER_550: you know, the different permitting you need, the different amount of time that takes to get done, how you certify the helipad. If you need to certify the helipad. So you basically can't do it. Yeah, it makes it very hard. That being said, this is a safer platform than what already exists, helicopters. So I think there'll be a lot of loosening of that because it's just increasing

SPEAKER_00: safety to something they already do. Now, New York City, that's the big one. I think Joby made announcement that they're going to be at one of the ports. Yeah, you're contemporary. I don't know if I would describe you guys as competitors now, because like the early days of say EVs or self-driving cars, if this works, man, we're going to need 10 Archers and Joby's to do it, but they're going

SPEAKER_550: to be out of Manhattan soon, yeah? Yeah, we both will operate out of the city. I mean, it's a wonderful place. It's already the biggest helicopter market in the US. So there's three big heliports that exist already, the west side, east side and the downtown Wall Street heliport. So it's already naturally kind of configured. It is very complex, congested airspace. And so I also think, you know, the way that this will come to market will be in, you know, relatively low volumes, will gain the trust of the public. They'll allow us to keep scaling this stuff up. So you can start

SPEAKER_579: with maybe tens of aircrafts and then, you know, maybe over five, 10 years, you scale it up to

SPEAKER_442: hundreds of aircrafts. Which is like the robo-taxi and Waymo story. You start slow, build trust. Are you guys on the clock? You've been working on this for a decade, yeah? Yeah. So it's,

SPEAKER_550: the tech actually goes back to NASA 40 years ago, how to use multiple electric engines to fly airplanes. And then really kind of thanks to Larry Page and the early work at Xero, they really helped, you know, bring a lot of that technology. Yeah. Larry bet on two or three, right? Yeah. So he's been super involved. He was a huge part of the industry. And then if you go back, really Uber did a great job when they had the Uber Elevate platform, which really put it into the mainstream. That was around 2016. With Blade, right? They were doing or? Yeah. They, they kind of, well, they really were like almost a research project to showcase what

SPEAKER_597: the business model could be. Oh, right. I remember when Travis did that. Yes.

SPEAKER_550: Yeah. And then 2018 Morgan Stanley had a hundred page initiation report saying it's the next $9 trillion market that opened up the capital markets to everybody. And so that, that allowed us to do

SPEAKER_363: this. You guys SPAC right after or during COVID, yeah? 2021. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Okay. So right after COVID started to wane. And was that the right decision? I know these SPACs have been up and down, being public can be a distraction. And you guys are a deep tech company with a long runway. What's it like trying to deal with shareholders in a public company when, you know,

SPEAKER_591: you're in a multi-decade rollout of a product like this? Well, I actually give a lot of credit also

SPEAKER_550: to the Reddit community because the retail army really helped allow Archer to raise the money it needed to raise in order to get to where it is. So we've raised around $4 billion of capital today.

SPEAKER_604: Four billion. Wow.

SPEAKER_550: Yeah. And we'll probably, you know, over time, you'll raise more, but the stock is super liquid because it has such a huge fan base in the retail market, it creates liquidity, which allows the institutional investors to play, which allows the whole kind of cycle to keep going. So as long as we keep performing, there's this pot of gold at the end of the, you know, the Morgan Stanley sort of pot of gold, we should be able to keep stair-stepping up the valuation, keeping everybody

SPEAKER_560: happy, raising the capital, keeping it going. Deep tech is extremely capital intensive. Yeah. And this

SPEAKER_328: was the right avenue for us for sure. It's really interesting when you think about it, who is a better base of investors for long-term public markets, institutional investors,

SPEAKER_338: venture capitalists, private equity, or the lunatics on Reddit. It turns out the lunatics on Reddit,

SPEAKER_39: all due respect, I say that with like peace and love, like they actually probably get it right because they know what consumers want. Yeah. And they're willing to go for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_550: They're also willing to kind of look past the quarterly earnings issues. Right. And really to say like, this is a technology they want. I mean, who wouldn't want it? It's safer than helicopters, they're super quiet. They cost less. It's convenience for everyone. Like nobody loses

SPEAKER_00: here. This is a win-win type of product. Where's your product out? You guys are flying runs, obviously. Where are you flying the runs currently? So two core places we fly. One is in

SPEAKER_550: Northern California in the Bay Area. So we fly at a Salinas, the airport there, which is about 90 minutes south of the Bay Area. And then also in the UAE. So we have a great partnership with Abu Dhabi. Mubado has been an investor. IHC has been an investor. Oh, Mubado is an investor? Yeah. They've been a wonderful partner. Ibrahim. Yeah. Yeah. It's really opened up the country.

SPEAKER_415: They're a long term. Yeah. They're thinking in 50 year cycles, I think. How often do you fly this

SPEAKER_615: thing? What's the distance that it flies? And are there humans in it? Yeah. So we fly most days,

SPEAKER_550: piloted flights. And so you can't fly them without pilots. It's actually pretty easy to fly the planes, autonomously or remotely, or automated is a better way to really describe it. But we fly them piloted. And the goal is to work towards enough flight hours, enough confidence from us, from the regulators that we can start operating commercial service. We're getting there. It takes time to do that. I mean- How often do you fly in it? I haven't flown it. Just the pilots do. What? Why? They won't let you? You're the CEO. No, you could. I mean, if you look at, and we're just sort of honest about flight test programs, there's a dangerous part until you kind of cross every T here. And if you go back in time, I mean, most of the big aerospace companies have had crashes with early platforms. So you really try to be careful with just the test pilots,

SPEAKER_579: very serious testing until you get to the point where you're close to the certification side.

SPEAKER_237: Virgin Galactic, another SPAC, they had a tragic instance. And yeah,

SPEAKER_338: aviation is dangerous in the early days. When will you be willing to get in one? I guess is the question we all want to answer because we're not getting it until you do it every day. Later this year. That'd be my- Later this year? Yeah. Now you married, you got kids? Married two kids.

SPEAKER_363: Okay. So we have the conversation with the wife, I assume. I'll probably tell her after. What's our- Oh, but what's our position? When will she let you go in it?

SPEAKER_623: She's a huge believer and supporter of everything I've done. Okay.

SPEAKER_624: So I think she'd trust me when I think it's time I would do it. She'd be okay.

SPEAKER_338: Listen, continued success with it. It's obviously going to work. It's obviously going to change the world. What do we need to know as we wrap here about safety and why these are much safer? Because the idea of even having a pilot seems a little bit performative. Is it just to make the passengers feel

SPEAKER_00: a little bit better? Because these things obviously are going to be flown by computers

SPEAKER_455: much better than pilots eventually. And eventually, I mean, by the end of this year.

SPEAKER_550: Yeah. The challenge with autonomy is regulation and infrastructure. So even if you couldn't do it, there's no rules in place to get that done. And even if the rules were in place, how does the system work? Because today air traffic control is very, very manual. If you listen on ATC,

SPEAKER_560: when you fly in somewhere, they're guiding you in, turn 10 degrees to the left, drop a thousand feet

SPEAKER_213: in altitude. That makes total sense. So the infrastructure doesn't allow for autonomy.

SPEAKER_594: Yet. Yet. Even though autonomy, we would both agree, would be safer this year than a pilot.

SPEAKER_550: Would you agree with that statement? Assuming you could work your way into the air traffic control system? Definitely. The actual, you know, humans make mistakes. Computers make a lot less mistakes. And so maybe no mistakes. And so it certainly, that's the dream. That's the goal. With the advancements of LLMs, it actually allows this interesting period of time where you can now communicate with the machine in a way you couldn't really before. And so there's this probably middle ground that happens where there's pilots talking to machines, machines talking to pilots. And so you can start to implement different systems. And that's where I think it goes first, actually.

SPEAKER_592: Ah, that's fascinating. So when you're clearing with the tower, it's just that the VTOL is talking to the

SPEAKER_540: tower. Yeah. It's think about like, um, you know, instead of like looking at your map,

SPEAKER_550: looking at the weather, you know, understanding, uh, you know, all the different trackers you have to follow, the machines can just do that and make the decision and say to do this. So it actually is easier for a machine to do it than a human. And again, I would encourage you listen to air traffic

SPEAKER_635: control. Oh, I've listened to it. I'm obsessed with it. There's an incredible channel on YouTube called Blanco Lirio. Have you ever heard it? No. So go on YouTube and Patreon and throw this guy five

SPEAKER_00: or 10 bucks a month. He's, he's based out of, he's a pilot, commercial pilot, and he's based out of Lake Tahoe area. And all he does is break down every aviation incident. And it's amazing. And I've

SPEAKER_338: become a little bit obsessed with it. And, uh, he just breaks it all down. It's almost universally the pilot makes some series of incredibly poor judgments. I'm talking about private aviation as opposed to commercial aviation. And, um, yeah, it's just great that there's somebody like him out there. Now, how many rotors on the thing? Uh, 12. 12. Now is that six with two in

SPEAKER_564: each or is it like 12? It's 12. Which means 12 motors. Yeah. There's actually redundant motors.

SPEAKER_560: There's actually 24, but we, for simplicity, call it 12. So there's 12 redundant motors, 24. And then

SPEAKER_338: how many blades, how many, um, are they double blades? Like one on the bottom, one on the top?

SPEAKER_569: Um, there's five blades on the ones on the forward part of the wing and four blades on the ones on the back. Why? There's lots of different reasons. Why is there a difference?

SPEAKER_550: One are used just for, um, the, uh, lifting portion. So the ones in the back and then they stop. And then the ones in the front are used for both lifting and the cruise. So they have different,

SPEAKER_338: uh, configurations. What scenario do you have the most concern about and then work on the most? Because with 12 of these, anybody who's flown, you know, just a toy drone, if you come up to it, you push it, you hit it, it just immediately gets back. Uh, now with 12 of these and 24 and your technology, I'm sure it's even smoother and better than that. So what do you worry about? Like some catastrophic electronic failure or are the electronic systems redundant? The battery

SPEAKER_569: failure? Everything is redundant. Like you have to, what do you worry about? Um, from a safety perspective today, I would say the biggest thing is the pilots. That's probably

SPEAKER_645: the pilots out. Now, what are we worried about? Um, you're always working,

SPEAKER_550: worried about just different cascading failures. Got it. So, you know, there was an incident in the industry where one of the companies had a, um, a propeller blade dislodge and it cascaded their aircraft. You don't really know that unless it actually happens. So blade comes off, hits the other blades and then the whole thing cascades. So you don't really know if that's going to happen until it happens. You have the math behind it that you can try to predict, but in when scenarios happen, you know, so there's, you know, you try to protect against cascading.

SPEAKER_648: How many of these 12 could go out and the thing could safely land?

SPEAKER_550: Well, one of the beauties is we're also building it to be able to take off land conventionally. And so you can lose a lot. We have a big 50 foot wing. You can glide. The glide ratio is huge. You can get up to max 10 miles of glide. So you can do a lot of things here. That's the only way to really certify at the standards. The FAA wants you to do it. So it gives you a pretty big,

SPEAKER_429: good. So you have those nice wide wings. You can glide in. Yeah. What height, what's,

SPEAKER_550: what's the ceiling on these now? They can go up to 11,000 feet. There's no real reason to.

SPEAKER_644: It's not pressurized. You really want to fly helicopter range, 500 to 2000 feet.

SPEAKER_338: What do you take from the helicopter industry away from, you know, when they have accidents, what happens? It seems like those pilots particularly are really skilled, but also maybe on the margins, maybe I'm reading into this. Cowboys, a little bit eccentric. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_550: I mean, it depends. I mean, every scenario is obviously like pretty different. The beauty behind these aircrafts is the redundancy allows you to just have a capability to certify with near zero single points of failure or zero single points of failure where a helicopter doesn't have that. So, you know, if you think about one big rotor, there's a lot of parts that go into making that one big rotor work. And if that one part fails, you have a, you have a catastrophic event. So that can happen. They're mechanical complex machines. Yeah. And so, you know, the, with the eVTOL side, you reduce that, uh, complexity. By what, if you were to say it's X times

SPEAKER_39: more safer without us, like, you know, holding you to it, if you were to ask the 10 engineers

SPEAKER_338: working across the 10 companies in your field, not you, but what do you guess those 10 engineers

SPEAKER_294: would say it's the currently this times more safer than helicopters? Well, that will be a standard that

SPEAKER_550: the FAA, um, you know, makes us certified to. So the question will be, what's the ultimate standard? So 10 to the minus seven, 10 to the minus eight, 10 to the minus nine, one in a billion, one in a

SPEAKER_431: hundred million. Yeah. But you think it's twice, what would your, it'd be an order of magnitude safer.

SPEAKER_338: So three, four or five times safer is a pretty reasonable goal, 10 times a reasonable goal.

SPEAKER_363: Why are you here at Davos? Um, you virtue signaling about being all electric? What's going on?

SPEAKER_662: Uh, selling aircraft, aircraft. You're here to do business. Yeah. Who are you selling to just

SPEAKER_550: nation states? Yeah. So geographically, obviously easier to sell stuff in the U.S. or kind of close to the U.S. Here, you get to meet, uh, different companies and countries. Um, the Middle East, GCC has been, you know, very active. Um, Africa has been very active. Asia has been very active. So there's a lot of great folks to go see where you can kind of line them all up. So we'll announce, you know, deals, you know, here, we'll, you know, sign things, uh, here that will ultimately get announced. So it actually is very beneficial from a business standpoint to come here. And most of the companies here are AI. And so there's a lot of AI talk. We're a non like AI predominant company. There's a lot of AI in what we do, but we don't sell AI. And so we sell infrastructure and it's the perfect place to meet the ministers of transportation. Perfect. Yeah. Super efficient. Yeah. The heads of state. So there's lots of opportunities to,

SPEAKER_39: you know, kind of bring Western tech to these countries. I think they see having VTOLs as a point of pride for their country. Yes. Some countries like this is, I don't want to say ban any project, but it is something they can point to and say, Hey, look, we got here first.

SPEAKER_665: Yeah. And they could see the UAE. I could see Saudi. I could see Qatar. Absolutely. Kuwait,

SPEAKER_550: all feeling that way. Like, Ooh, we have this. Absolutely. There is another element where, you know, Davos is sort of a non-defense oriented. They don't like you to talk about defense here. We should, we do have a really strong partnership with Anderil. And so we've been building the new, um, kind of autonomous, attritable aircrafts. We talked about, uh, one of the programs. Wait, what was the second word you choose? Autonomous?

SPEAKER_666: Attritable, they call it. Attritable. What does it mean?

SPEAKER_550: It's not a 20 year plane. It's not expendable like a one time missile, one way type of product. They call it the space in between. They call it attritable. If you lost it, it wouldn't be a big deal. Yeah. So you, the goal is, so the, the, one of the programs we've talked about is, one is called the project Nix. It is an autonomous collaborative, uh, tack helicopter, uh, drone. So think like, um, sort of like, uh, um, you know, an Apache type of platform. So there'll be a big manned asset and they'll have a bunch of drones that fly with it. So that's a program we're, we're working on with Anderil. We build the core aircrafts and Anderil missionizes it. So think

SPEAKER_415: sensors or munitions, those kinds of things, but it would fly with a bunch of little drones around it

SPEAKER_550: to protect it. Um, we are effectively the, they're not little, but we're it's, you know, these are huge aircraft. We, it's almost like, think about it this way. If you have an Apache, which is a 50 to $70 million asset and it has a person in it, you're, you don't want to risk it for lots of reasons. One, there's a person, two, it's super expensive, three, very hard to replace. If you're not willing to risk it, it's not that much of a deterrent. And so when you do risk it, you want to be certain you can have these things come back. But what if I could make an aircraft that does the same thing, the same fighting power, maybe more fighting power at 90% lower cost with no,

SPEAKER_338: with no pilot. Wow. Cause these pilots are worth $25 million each. They literally have a friend who was in special forces. And he told me that they put a number on each of them, how much they invested in the replacement cost of a Navy seal of a, he wasn't in the Navy, but one of these kinds of type groups,

SPEAKER_328: you could actually know the replacement costs of a person. Uh, and they called them assets,

SPEAKER_673: you know, these top elite folks. So you have no problem working in defense. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_674: Yeah. I'm a country. I'm a Patriot. I'm a super believer in what the U S is doing. Um,

SPEAKER_550: and they've been, you know, as a country, extremely helpful, um, to new industries like Archer and

SPEAKER_676: eVTOLs. And so maybe more so than the last administration. A lot more. So just the quick

SPEAKER_550: example on that was, I could not get a meeting with the former secretary of transportation. Couldn't get a meeting. Wouldn't take a meeting. And I know he's busy. Wait, wait,

SPEAKER_678: you're a publicly traded VTOL company who's meeting with the Gulf monarchies being courted.

SPEAKER_564: Zero meetings. And you requested meetings, requested meetings. How many times? Multiple times. And they literally, this is Brian Armstrong story. He wanted to meet with

SPEAKER_550: the sec. They're like, yeah, no, we're good. Uh, secretary Duffy comes in and all of a sudden, like monthly it was, it was, we want to make sure we can re-industrialize America. This is important. Um, aviation leading the world is important and modernizing air traffic is important. And if you can help in all that, we want to hear from you. What, what can we do to help you? And that's, was a resulted by the way in the executive order that came out. And so that helped the industry because I showed them a path because we won the exclusive, uh, for the LA 28 Olympics to fly air taxis around, uh, you know, that city during the game. And so we'll sort of control the air during that. And I said, I need a path to make sure I can do that. This will be a huge opportunity.

SPEAKER_682: I think people have not taken the democratic party has not taken this to heart yet. It's not about

SPEAKER_338: being subservient to the technology industry or capitalism or corporates. It's about winning the

SPEAKER_39: future. And part of winning together for American companies is at least meeting with them and hearing the vision. Like how does that hurt the previous secretary of transportation to meet with the VTOL companies? How did it hurt the SEC to meet with Brian Armstrong or any number of crypto companies?

SPEAKER_455: It was, they were in contempt. It seems in hindsight of the entire technology and business industry.

SPEAKER_630: Yeah. I mean, in the end, if this works, imagine the jobs we will create. Imagine the, you know,

SPEAKER_550: GDP contribution we will create. I mean, the, the FAA administrator, you know, kind of publicly keeps saying 11% of GDP touches aviation. And so it's capped because of air traffic. We have to upgrade that system. I'm red pulling, pulling myself as we speak here. But it's like, if you're, if you believe that, then you would think you want to unlock that and it will help everybody. Like literally no one

SPEAKER_690: loses. So you would think you'd want to do that. It was almost like they had like an ax to grind

SPEAKER_00: with capitalists for some crazy reason. And the opportunity to embrace the industry was always there for them. Yeah. Whether it was incompetence or intentionality, the result is the same. They set back the industry years by not engaging. Greenland, how much should we pay? What do you

SPEAKER_415: think? What do you think it takes? I don't know. I will tell you.

SPEAKER_552: Jump into it and make yourself an interesting guest. We should take it, right? We should just take it or

SPEAKER_689: we buy it. I saw something that said, um, there is an offer that was more than the GDP of Denmark. And so I was like, I mean, there's 55,000 people. Let's make a deal. How much do you all want?

SPEAKER_550: Well, the funny thing of my meetings here, so I come to sell, you know, aircraft. That's what we come to do. And I will get asked that question nearly every meeting. And I mean, literally back in Silicon Valley, like no one, I mean, yes, we've heard it on the news. Of course. Yes. Of course it's important, but people aren't talking about it on a every hour basis. I come here at every meeting, there's people commenting on it. So there's definitely an obsession here.

SPEAKER_39: And Trump negotiates by tweet or by truth soldier, whatever they call that, a platform,

SPEAKER_363: by truth, by post, say what you will. This has been on the agenda for America for a century or two, and it's a critical deal. If President Trump gets incredible enjoyment out of negotiating a deal and solving a long-term problem for America, I say, let them cook. Yeah. Let them cook. I agree.

SPEAKER_552: Greenland, we're here. 51st state. Let's do it. All right. Listen, continued success. And thanks for coming on the pod again.

David Friedberg: We're very lucky to have Chase Lockmiller with us. He's the CEO and co-founder of Crusoe Cloud, C-R-U-S-O-E, not Caruso, Crusoe Cloud. You got it. Which is, or was, the first Neocloud, really. You were kind of...

SPEAKER_705: We were part of an early contingent of Neoclouds, you know, between us and CoreWeave and,

David Friedberg: yeah, Lambda. How did, did that occur because you had anticipated buying a bunch of H100s before everybody else and you had the inventory? How did that start that you got such a good lead?

SPEAKER_709: Well, so we had started well before Hopper came out. You know, we were, you know, Crusoe's a business that's always taken this very energy-first approach to developing computing infrastructure and really changing, you know, the motion from trying to co-locate compute in these network hubs and really focusing on where we can access abundant energy. So, you know, we, you know, we're experimenting a lot with, you know, the Amper generation, which preceded Hopper, so a lot of A100s. We built out this, you know, high-performance cloud platform that was meant to enable AI innovators to, you know, do incredible work. You know, we launched before ChatGPT came out and so, you know, sometimes you're in the right place at the right time. Yeah, timing was good. Yeah, timing worked.

SPEAKER_708: And your biggest customer by far is Oracle and OpenAI? Correct. So, you know, we're a vertically integrated business, which means we're focused on not just the compute layer, but also the energy

SPEAKER_709: development, the data center development, as well as the, you know, application layer where we're, you know, running things like our managed inference service. And, you know, as this boom really took off, you know, the scarcity of data centers became very apparent and our ability to build those large-scale AI data centers very quickly became a very in-demand, you know, skill set. So, please, yeah.

SPEAKER_717: Hey guys in the back, if you're talking, can you just take it outside because it's going to get picked

SPEAKER_608: up on the pot. Appreciate it. Three, two. So, why West Texas? Is it because the politicians there and

SPEAKER_719: are pretty permissive in terms of giving permits and you can build quickly, like Elon experienced

SPEAKER_721: with his big factory in Austin, or is it because of energy? Yeah, it was really an energy-driven

SPEAKER_723: decision. So, you know, in Abilene, Texas, we had, you know, it's an area where a lot of actual

SPEAKER_709: renewables had been built out on the back of production tax credits. So, there was an abundant amount of wind and solar that was there that actually had issues with transmission. So, power prices were actually frequently negative. There were renewable energy producers that were having to curtail that could be producing power, but actually were shutting down because there was no marginal

SPEAKER_727: demand. So, the grid didn't need their energy. Exactly. That's wild to think about. It's also

SPEAKER_721: wild to think about that Texas has the largest solar base of any state in the union, yeah?

SPEAKER_709: Absolutely. And, you know, we went there and we said, man, you guys have too much energy. Hey, buddy, I got a, do I have a, do I have a command for you? And so, we, you know, we have a 1.2 gigawatt substation there. We've also built a 350 megawatt gas plant on site to energize one of the largest

SPEAKER_733: clusters of GPUs in the world. So, was there gas under the actual data

SPEAKER_709: center or they're shipping there? No, no, no. We had access to a pipeline that feeds into, you know,

SPEAKER_734: 10 gas turbines that are on site there. Amazing. And the gas turbines, those were a blocker for a while too, huh? They still are. I mean, you know, gas turbines are a massive supply chain constraint

SPEAKER_709: as people look to energize compute infrastructure. I think a lot of people, we were really one of the first groups to be focused on, you know, natural gas power data centers, doing things behind the meter, off grid. And I think a lot of people have sort of followed this pathway, which has created a lot of supply chain challenges with some of the major producers, folks like GE Vernova. You know, Caterpillar has a company called Solar that we work with very closely, you know, Siemens, Mitsubishi.

SPEAKER_723: And we actually recently did something with an incredible company, Boom Supersonic.

SPEAKER_717: Yes. Boom Supersonic was making the Concorde replacement, Blake. Correct. The CEO. Yeah.

SPEAKER_740: And they're making their own engines that go pretty fast. And so what was the idea there?

SPEAKER_723: Yeah. So, you know, they had re-engineered this, this turbine for supersonic jet travel. And,

SPEAKER_709: you know, Colleen, my co-founder and I were talking to Blake and said, hey, you know, could we use that to generate power instead of, you know, transport people over the ocean at supersonic speeds? And, you know, now we're, you know, their first large purchase order for $1.2

SPEAKER_742: billion of gas turbines to power AI, critical AI infrastructure.

SPEAKER_745: It's wild to think about. The gas turbines and jet engines are not super dissimilar.

SPEAKER_746: No. I mean, I think this is the full playbook of, you know, GE historically, right? I mean,

SPEAKER_709: the reason GE for Nova exists is, you know, their leadership in terms of, you know, air transportation as well as power generation.

SPEAKER_745: Yeah. And I wonder if it's really interesting about that opportunistic thing for Blake to do from Boom Supersonic is that now that will allow him to fund his Concorde replacement. Yeah.

SPEAKER_709: Absolutely. You know, power is a great business and, you know, we think he can make a lot of money as, you know, the scaling up of AI infrastructure occurs. And hopefully, you know, he's able to build

SPEAKER_754: those incredible supersonic jets that get us to Tokyo much faster.

SPEAKER_757: And the Stargate project is a $300 billion project. What's the number? Because there was big announcement at the White House. And there's been a little bit of, you know, wink, wink, like,

SPEAKER_717: these are numbers were kind of estimates. What's the realistic footprint of this?

SPEAKER_759: So, you know, I think Stargate has been a term that's been used to describe a lot of different

SPEAKER_709: things at this point. You know, initially, our campus was called Stargate and then, you know, Stargate was then a company for a while. And then I think OpenAI sort of described it as all of their spend on compute is just sort of broadly labeled as Stargate. So I think the number is 500 billion. And this incorporates, you know, chips, data centers, energy to ultimately power

SPEAKER_723: this intelligent infrastructure that's running and scaling both ChatGPT and all their other core

SPEAKER_608: services. One of the blockers in addition to the turbines has been electricians and construction workers. Yes. My understanding is you're paying two to three times what they were getting paid

SPEAKER_727: before the data center. No comment on exactly what we're paying the electricians,

David Friedberg: but they're very well compensated. Am I in the right zone that their salaries in the industry

SPEAKER_723: have doubled or tripled? Look, I think it's an incredibly exciting career path for, for, for anybody looking to do work with their hands and, and get well, hundreds of thousands of dollars a

SPEAKER_734: year. Yes. So, you know what, I mean, let's think about that for a second. No, no college degree.

SPEAKER_745: Yeah. Just have to be an apprentice as an electrician and you can make hundreds of thousands dollars a year. And you need how many thousands, hundreds? Correct. So we, uh, which one thousands

SPEAKER_759: or hundreds? Thousands. So I'll, I'll get into it in a second. So, um, it, I'll give you an example.

SPEAKER_723: So in Abilene today, we have 8,000 people onsite every day. They're working day and night to bring this facility online as fast as possible. So we can energize this until, and that's three hours

SPEAKER_709: west of Dallas. Correct. So it's in West Texas. Um, you know, Abilene is a town of 120,000 people. So, you know, when you're hiring 8,000 people to work in that town, you can't source everybody

SPEAKER_763: locally. So we've actually had to bring in a lot of labor from all States. And housing, I would

SPEAKER_709: assume. Yeah. Housing, you know, housing, you know, the market's actually fairly efficient. There's a lot of people, um, that won't be longterm permanent workers there, um, that are actually, you know, they bring mobile homes, you know, they collect a stipend. Uh, it's, it's, it's kind of a very, you know, uh, efficient process in that regard. Um, but, uh, you know, longterm, we're going to have about 2000, uh, permanent workers, uh, at the campus. So there's both, you know, short-term job, you know, spike and boom in terms of demand for the construction and installation process, but there's also great long-term permanent jobs to operate the facility. And we have a power plant there. There's a lot of mechanics that are going to be operating this facility. Um, but this is just one campus. Um, we have another campus, uh, in Armstrong County, Texas that, you know, has close to 3000 people on site every day. We have another, uh, project in, outside Cheyenne, Wyoming, that we've announced we're planning to build a 10 gigawatt campus. Why, why, um, Wyoming is a state that, you know, is very rich in natural resources and energy. Um, and, you know, there's been really favorable, uh, you know, um, public private partnerships in terms of making this project happen. Uh, you know, there's a tremendous amount of, uh, gas there to sort of support, uh, what we're doing. And, uh, one of the very cool things that we're focused on is actually trying to, uh, bend the arc of energy production towards sustainable

SPEAKER_723: resources. So even with the gas, uh, Wyoming is a place where you actually have a primacy on what's called class six wells. They're, they're post-combustion carbon capture and sequestration disposal wells, where you can actually take the carbon that, that comes out of, you know, the, the, the, the combustion process of, uh, a natural gas turbine, and you can pump it underground and permanently sequester it. Ah. And there's actually a incentive there called 45 Q, where you get paid by the government to do this. And it doesn't quite cover the cost of doing it,

SPEAKER_709: but for customers that care about sort of the impact and the sustainability of the campus.

SPEAKER_784: And they're not putting the carbon into the atmosphere. Exactly.

SPEAKER_709: They're putting it underground. They can produce power from gas in a carbon free way, which is a really exciting, you know, value proposition we can use.

SPEAKER_719: How are batteries? Uh, I, I think we saw Elon bought a, and his building, um, he's got his own lithium refinery and he's building obviously his own batteries. And, uh, they're one of the larger battery manufacturers. How do batteries play into all this currently? Um, there's a bunch

SPEAKER_709: of different ways batteries play into it. I think, uh, you know, you, you sort of need batteries in these low voltage UPS systems that sort of, uh, you know, uh, help operate the electrical system of, of the plants, uh, or just to normalize and base load or. Yes. Um, well, actually one of the issues that we're seeing is, you know, when you think about these large scale AI factories, uh, when you're deploying giant clusters of GPUs, uh, you know, the entire data center is acting as a single computer. It's running one single workload. That's training some breakthrough foundational model. Uh, and what that results in is actually massive load fluctuations in the actual power draw, because what they're doing is the chips are basically running compute cycles and then publishing the data over the network to all the other, you know, GPUs, they can sort of be in sync with one another. And this causes this massive fluctuation and sort of overall power draw. Well, utilities

SPEAKER_723: hate that it's terrible for the turbines. So you really need a way of actually normalizing.

SPEAKER_709: Yeah. You got to smooth it out. Exactly. So we've actually been able to solve that with a, uh, a one hour battery. Um, that's actually a medium voltage battery energy storage system. That's something that we've deployed. Um, you know, there's a lot of other use cases for batteries. I'll give you another example. We're actually working with, uh, Elon's former co-founder, uh, and partner at Tesla, JB Strobel. Oh, he's doing the recycling of them. Correct. So he has a business called Redwood materials. Um, that's, uh, focused on recycling of batteries. And he has this massive supply of end of life, EV batteries, batteries coming out of digital cameras, all these, like, you know, this, this whole collection of, of batteries that are sort of at the end of their life. And so as a demonstration to show people what we could do in terms of, you know, cost competition as well as, you know, deployment, uh, we actually deployed a fully off grid solar plus battery energy storage system that powers an AI data center 24 hours around the clock with a power price that's lower than the power price in Northern Virginia. Um, and we're able to do that because you're, you're, you're basically taking these batteries that, you know, uh, were, were in an electric vehicle and maybe the range was 300 miles and now it's 250 miles. Uh, so the, you know, the owner trades it in and it's like, okay, this car is done. Right. But there's still a lot of juice left in those batteries. It's a lot of worse life in those batteries. So we're able to really make use of them in a second life, uh, to power these AI data centers.

SPEAKER_791: You're under massive pressure to deliver these data centers, correct?

David Friedberg: Um, yeah, yeah, you could say that compared to where you were like two or three years ago, maybe let's say three or four years ago, you were knocking on doors saying, Hey, do you need a data center? Now your door is being knocked down. Um, I think there's just,

SPEAKER_723: I think it just really speaks to, you know, the demand for compute. I think people

SPEAKER_709: are constantly having this conversation of like, are we in an AI bubble? Uh, you know, I think there's just an incredible, you know, there's no, nobody has enough compute. None of the, you know, leading labs, none of the leading application companies can get their hands on

SPEAKER_723: enough compute. And that's just driving an incredible amount of urgency to deliver infrastructure,

SPEAKER_757: both the chips and the data center. So even this year, going into 2026, you're seeing the same

SPEAKER_75: amount of inbound. Hey, we need more, we need more, we need more. What do you got? Or was last year like people put in their big orders for the next couple of years? Um, no, we're seeing things

SPEAKER_795: accelerate. Who are the new customers? Because obviously Elon, Sam Altman, I'm sure AWS, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_766: Or, well, I think Google does their own. Yeah. Um, Google, I think, uh, well, I don't want to speak

SPEAKER_791: for you directly. This is all in. If you want to be on all in, you got to speak candid. Just tell us

SPEAKER_799: what you heard at the cocktail party. Google does, does a mix of, you know, self-performed development

SPEAKER_709: as well as, uh, sort of outsourcing. So they do do some outsourcing. Yeah. Correct. Um, but you know, I think all of the leading labs were seeing a tremendous amount of demand. Uh, so, you know, anthropic open AI, you know, Google, uh, you know, Elon builds his own, Elon builds his own.

SPEAKER_721: Um, what, what, what was your take when you saw him build Colossus under that short time frame?

SPEAKER_719: Like your team must be like, that's just not possible. And then he did it. Uh, no, I don't

SPEAKER_769: think we thought that at all. I think I was like really, you know, rooting for him and cheering for

SPEAKER_163: him. No, but did, did he do, my understanding is he did it in half the time anybody else had ever

SPEAKER_723: done something like that? Um, it, it, I mean, it depends on how you sort of measure these things. I think Colossus was a, that Colossus one was sort of this unique case where he had this in

SPEAKER_709: large scale industrial building, he had power to the building. Uh, and really what he was doing was what I would call like the tenant fit out, which is basically the, in the data hall build out of the cooling distribution units, the RPPs, the electrical systems, the hot aisle containment systems

SPEAKER_723: that really, and then you sort of roll racks of GPUs into these. Right. Uh, so they were able to execute on

SPEAKER_719: that incredibly fast and, you know. Yeah. Jensen said he'd never seen anything like that. Yeah. He seemed to think it was like, um, a unique thing that occurred in your industry. Yeah. I mean,

SPEAKER_723: Elon's the goat of, you know, a modern industrialist. So, you know, right. So, but

SPEAKER_719: hat tip to, you know, him. You as running, not competitive to him, but building the same things, you have to look at that and study it a bit. How did he get it done so fast? What do you think?

SPEAKER_723: How do you think he was able to do it so fast? Um, I think Elon does an incredible job of, you know, breaking down, uh, you know, a, a large industrial process into, um, a lot of

SPEAKER_709: sub processes and understanding constraints and really taking a first principled approach of, you know, how do I build things as quickly as possible? How do I parallelize things as quickly as possible? Got it. Um, and. Has that informed some of your thinking? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, he's been an inspiration from, you know, building the gigafactory to everything he's done at, you know, uh, SpaceX and, uh, Starbase, you know, it's all, all incredibly inspiring. And, you know, we try to channel that same sense of incredible urgency, uh, you know, parallelizing a lot of the work. Uh, you know, we, we, we self-perform a lot of, you know, procurement functions and engineering functions, uh, and then, you know, work with a, uh, a lot of, you know, very ambitious folks on the, on the construction side. Uh, there's actually a bunch of folks that worked on the Tesla gigafactory, uh, in your new hometown in Austin, um, that are working on, uh, our campus in, in Abilene, Texas. So, um, there's a lot of, uh, overlap in sort of methodologies.

SPEAKER_719: There's been a lot of talk of, and I think Brad Gerstner kind of started this discussion on his BG2 podcast when he had Sam Altman on, how does a company with 20 or at the time, 12 billion, now it's 20 billion run rate. How does open AI pay for a $500 billion build out in your contract with

SPEAKER_163: them and your relationship with them? I'm assuming this is being done in stages, not one giant

SPEAKER_799: hundred billion dollar contract, but stages. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I think it's important to understand,

SPEAKER_709: like, you know, in, in a lot of ways, my role as CEO of Crusoe, um, like half my time is really spent on like risk management, you know? Yes. Uh, the amount of capital going into this is, is just enormous. And you know, all that capital is not going to come from like dilutive equity capital that we're raising at the parent company. We have to raise project equity. We have to raise a lot of debt. Um, and what debt, debt folks are focused on is how is this person going to pay me back? Um, and so it is very much something that's being evaluated in the capital markets. Um, and you know, this has actually been a major role that we see these large scale blue chip investment grade businesses, uh, play a major role in sort of catalyzing the capital formation you need to

SPEAKER_723: build these giant infrastructure projects. So when you have a, you know, a company like Google or,

SPEAKER_719: you know, a company like Microsoft or a company and they're sitting on a hundred billion in cash and they throw 10, 20 billion to the bottom line every quarter, they can just fund it from their existing businesses. But Elon and Sam have new businesses or even Anthropic, they have to come

SPEAKER_723: up with that money somewhere. Yeah. Correct. So, you know, in our case, I'll give an example in, uh, in Abilene, Texas, cause that's the most public one. Uh, you know, we have a long-term lease

SPEAKER_709: agreement with Oracle, right? So we have a long-term, you know, 15 year offtake agreement with Oracle. Um, and so they're committed to sort of paying us for that, you know, timeframe. Uh, so that helped unlock a lot of the construction debt, uh, and the capital we needed to build this project. Uh, so we worked with, uh, JP Morgan on, on, uh, and number of other folks were in the syndicate, bank of America, Apollo, you know, uh, SMBC, you know, a bunch of different, And they must be very excited about this opportunity. Yeah. I think everybody's really, really excited about, you know, the opportunity to, you know, build the infrastructure that's going to power the economy in the future.

SPEAKER_800: And there's, this is collateralized by a data center, which has inherent value. If

SPEAKER_719: a customer of yours was unable to meet their commitment based on what you've told me today and shared with the audience, and I appreciate your candidness, um, that is the currency of the all-in brand as candid as, um, it would be somebody else to take that capacity. Yeah. I, I think,

SPEAKER_723: you know, that's, that's the biggest argument I make when people ask about the AI bubble is like, well, it, you know, imagine a scenario where like open AI went out of business,

SPEAKER_769: which I don't think is going to happen. There are people saying that that could happen. Sure. Okay. I'm not saying that you didn't say it. Imagine, imagine they did go out of business.

SPEAKER_709: The reason they'd go out of business is because some other model company, whether it be, you know, Anthropic or Gemini or Grok, like really blew them out of the water. Well, and they're kind of in

SPEAKER_745: fourth place right now, according to some of the benchmarks. Yeah. I mean, you know,

SPEAKER_709: put parking that all aside. They have an incredible adoption, incredible platform. Billion users. But if, if that were to happen, the group that massively surpassed them would have so much demand for that product. They would,

SPEAKER_723: they would jump, they'd be jumping for joy to step into the seat. Absolutely. To take over that compute capacity. So I think, you know, if you believe that AI is going to be an

SPEAKER_709: important, uh, aspect of, you know, the operating system of the economy in the future, um, you know,

SPEAKER_828: this infrastructure is going to be very useful and valuable to whoever the winners are, uh, in that

SPEAKER_757: future state. And people don't know this, but you've also made a bet on startups. You've been

SPEAKER_719: incredibly generous to give credits to startups. And maybe you could talk a little bit about how you made that decision to play the long game, because I would think there's probably some people on your board or in your own organization says, Hey, hey, listen, we got some big fish here. We got whales. What are we doing with the minnows? You're specifically targeting

SPEAKER_723: up and coming startups to be their provider. Yeah. So, you know, I really think about Crusoe,

SPEAKER_709: you know, being a vertically integrated business is like we offer three core things, right? We can, we can build the data centers and we can rent those to, to customers. We really only focused on a small subset, maybe five customers, these very big tech, uh, tech companies. Um, and that's really their key bottleneck, right? That that's, that's their key pain point. They're not, you know, renting out capacity from clouds because, you know, meta doesn't know how to run a GPU cluster. Like they, of course they know how to run, you know, big clusters of GPUs. They need data centers, right? So we're trying to unblock that critical pain point for them. Um, on our, uh, AI cloud platform and our infrastructure as a service platform, we offer managed clusters of high-performance GPUs and we're a very large partner with NVIDIA. And that's really critical infrastructure for the startups that you're talking about. This is the development of new AI native applications, uh, you know, coding assistant tools, uh, you know, managed inference solutions, video generation, image generation, uh, you know, all sorts of chat bots and, uh, you know, AI applications that are sort of, uh, proliferating in the world. Um, you know, we offer great, uh, sort of managed GPU clusters there. And then we also offer serverless, uh, AI services like our managed inference product, where we're charging people on a dollar per token basis. So we can kind of charge on a dollar per KW rent on the data center, dollar per GPU hour on the, on the GPU or dollar

SPEAKER_835: per token on, on sort of the managed service. Yeah. And that's thousands of customers,

SPEAKER_719: tens of thousands eventually. And that's where you're going up against Azure AWS and Google Cloud. Yeah. Uh, correct. Those are some pretty significant competitors. How do you compete with, with those

SPEAKER_723: kinds of folks? Um, you know, I, I think, I think when you look at those, uh, really large hyperscalers,

SPEAKER_709: they're, uh, you know, they're, they're incredible platforms and they've been able to accomplish so much, uh, but they really are the outsourced IT solution. That's meant to be everything to everyone. Uh, which means, you know, their, their lowest common denominator isn't AI. It's, it's every

SPEAKER_841: yes reason. You have email server, you need storage, it's everything. We are relentlessly

SPEAKER_709: focused just on the AI use case in the AI application to deliver the most reliable, most high-performance, uh, computing infrastructure directly for the AI use case and application. That's all we care about, which means all of the optimizations we're making on the high-performance networking system, the compute side, as well as the storage and how people access their data, um, is, you know, entirely in service of, uh, AI use cases.

SPEAKER_719: There's going to be some technological advancement in the coming years that really ramps up what we're able to do in building large language models and doing inference. What do you think that'll be? A lot of people have talked about optics and just the transfer, transport layer, some people talking about the raw horsepower, other people talking about cooling. Where do you, when you talk to some of the hardware providers, where do you think we'll see the next step function in the next, let's call that the three to five year window. And because you must be

SPEAKER_163: thinking about that skating to where the puck's going because you did that with your current company

SPEAKER_723: your current offering, I should say. Yeah. So, um, look, I think what's so fascinating about this space and what gets me so excited is that it's actually like the culmination of like the, the, the, the, the, the, the, like so many different engineering disciplines. And it's like the pinnacle of human achievement across so many different engineering disciplines from, you know, the cooling systems and the chemical engineering and, uh, you know, the electrical systems and, you know, the, the, the physical electrical engineering that needs to go into these chips to, you know, the silicon systems and the chips, uh, and the networking and the, and the software

SPEAKER_709: engineering, it's, it's really a full stack solution that ultimately produces intelligence. Now get into specific challenges that we see, uh, in specific trends, we're seeing, uh, everything go to higher density configurations. So more power in the rack, um, a traditional data center, maybe, you know, five years ago was like 15 KW, you know, 20 years ago was probably like four KW in a rack. Um, you know, the current generation of Blackwell chips, uh, is 130 KW in the rack. Uh, the next generation Vera Rubin is going to be 250. Um, and then Vera Rubin Ultra is expected to be 600. We're ultimately going to get to one megawatt racks. One megawatt to give a perspective is roughly the amount of power of a thousand homes. Yeah. It's like a small town in a data center, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_849: Um, so a rack will be a town of an rack will be a town and then exactly a couple of dozen of those

SPEAKER_799: will be a city. Yeah. It'll be a New York city in a, in a data. Crazy. Um, and you know, we,

SPEAKER_709: you know, uh, Crusoe has, uh, over 45 gigawatts in our pipeline to, you know, and I know you're from New York. That's about like, you know, eight to 10 New York city's worth of power, depending on how you, uh, measure it. Um, so, uh, you know, it's an, it's, it's an incredible amount of energy infrastructure. That's going to need to come online, uh, to help energize this, this layer of compute. And there's, uh, like I said, there, there's challenges in every, you know, domain from,

SPEAKER_723: from cooling to networking to, you know. Yeah. As that density arrives, this 10 to one density

SPEAKER_608: you're talking about, the heat also arrives. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, a lot

SPEAKER_757: of exciting stuff happening. And what do you think, uh, of the small modular nuclear getting

SPEAKER_745: close to hydro? Yep. What do you, you know, obviously gas is the layup at gas. It's everywhere.

SPEAKER_719: We're leaders in that solar. That feels like a layup and battery, that combo to add. But

SPEAKER_709: hydro, uh, I don't know if there's much left. We're actually doing a lot with hydro, uh, you know, in, in the Nordics. Um, so Norway, uh, in Iceland, the fjords we have, um, in Iceland, you know, there's abundant geothermal. Uh, it's like this sort of geological phenomenon and there's ultra low

SPEAKER_858: cost geothermal energy energy and also a lot of hydro there. Um, so that's a one, two that you

SPEAKER_796: get the one, two punch there. Yeah. And I don't know if you guys heard, but America just acquired Iceland. That was like the rim shot off of the, uh, Greenland. We, yeah, that wasn't a mistake.

SPEAKER_864: Yeah. We're taking, we're taking both. I mean, or you're giving us both. It's, it's, it's like Greenland. We don't ask for much. Yeah. We don't ask for much. Okay. It's a very simple

SPEAKER_867: request. We have a little Iceland, a little, we have data centers. You may have heard of big data, big data centers in the fjords. Listen, uh, but yeah, to your comment on small modular nuclear

SPEAKER_727: reactors, we are very bullish on SMRs and have you signed a contract yet? Are you in negotiations?

SPEAKER_709: We have four, uh, contracts that we've signed. Wow. We're actually hoping to energize the first AI, AI factory powered by an SMR in 2027. 2027. That's next year, brother. I know. Um, and, and one of the ways we've been able to do this is, is it's actually going to be at the Idaho

SPEAKER_723: National Lab, um, where you actually are, you're, you're, you're outside of the, uh, regulatory domain of, of the NRC. Uh, it's considered, uh, experimental technology. So. Oh yes. Um,

SPEAKER_858: who's the partner on that? Um, I don't think we've made it. No, it's okay. We're going to make some

SPEAKER_719: news here. No, I know because I, I was told this exact same insight by the company that's doing it, but I won't say the name of it. Yeah. Yes. Well, I think, I think we can announce it. Okay.

SPEAKER_709: Let's we, we shouldn't, we shouldn't, uh, uh, the partner is all low energy. So, uh, they're an

SPEAKER_721: incredible partner. Isn't it amazing that for solar, it was something we haven't been able to do since the seventies and now it's like, yeah, we're going to do solar. It's absolutely necessary.

SPEAKER_881: So we're going to do it. Yep. It's what do you attribute that to? Um, I, you know,

SPEAKER_799: I think there's this like human ingenuity and sort of the passage of time and sort of the

SPEAKER_723: relentless pursuit of efficiencies. Like I, I just think, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's really incredible if you look at the cost curve of solar, just how much it's come down over the course of

SPEAKER_709: time. I think you're going to see a similar thing play out in SMRs next gen, uh, geothermal. Like,

SPEAKER_723: we're really excited about like innovations, like Fervo's made, uh, in terms of like being able to produce, uh, geothermal at scale at a very competitive price point, uh, leveraging a lot of

SPEAKER_757: the technology from fracking and oil and gas. And we're not going to have this impact consumers

SPEAKER_723: electrical bills. Yeah. I think that's a, that's, that's such an interesting story. Um, you know,

SPEAKER_709: when we look at this problem, we say, look, a lot of the, you know, power on the grid is, is very saturated. Um, a lot of the data center capacity is saturated. So it just makes sense for the technology industry that wants to bring online all of this new infrastructure to also bring online the power to, you know, that goes with it. And you know, the incredible opportunity from my perspective is that when we bring on new power generation to support an AI data center, we're sizing it to the peak demand of the data center, which means, you know, and we're only using peak demand and call like 0.1% of the time. So you might have some access 0.9% of the time. Yeah. We have excess power that can be, that can support the local community that can create an abundance of energy that drives down the overall cost for rate payers in the local communities. People who have lower cost power, we're going to have advanced intelligent infrastructure that's driving massive efficiency gains in the economy. It's going to be like a incredible future we're building towards.

SPEAKER_757: And this is something that I think the technology industry could be self-aware enough to understand if we're making this incredible, uh, new business, it's a great way to share it with other Americans.

David Friedberg: Hey, maybe your energy bill will get lower or eventually free. Absolutely. And you're already

SPEAKER_709: seeing this trend unfold. I mean, we've taken this energy first approach. You saw Google, uh, recently make the acquisition of intersect power. Uh, you know, Sheldon and his team there incredible group of, of, uh, energy developers. Uh, and they're doing that because they know they

SPEAKER_723: need to build the energy infrastructure. That's going to support their compute needs in the future.

SPEAKER_895: Yeah. Well, really appreciate you taking the time chase and continued success. Uh, and what an amazing

SPEAKER_719: story, man, you, you really got there early and one of two things can happen when you get there early. You can just fail fabulously or you can just absolutely crush it. And it's been the latter

SPEAKER_757: for you. You, but there might've been some moments where you stared at the ceiling at night as an entrepreneur and said, are we too early? It's mostly been up, up into the right, you know,

SPEAKER_709: yeah, no real, no, I'm just kidding. Yeah. There's been, uh, you know, tons of complex problems and

SPEAKER_723: challenges and, you know, moments of doubt throughout the, the company's lifetime. But, um, you know,

SPEAKER_690: I wouldn't have want to do anything else with my life. It's nice to move from will the customers arrive to, okay, uh, we've got too many customers. We really need to deliver. Yeah. It's actually,

SPEAKER_757: it's a, it's a whole organizational mindset of like, will the customers ever show up in this like

SPEAKER_900: fear to, oh my God, I hope my customers are happy and delighted. Totally. But scaling people,

SPEAKER_799: scaling culture, scaling technology, it has its own set of challenges and problems. The culture part is important. It's difficult. Yeah. Yeah. It's difficult to go from a small startup of, you know, tens of people to, you know, more than a thousand people.

SPEAKER_903: And adding, what are you adding? A thousand a year?

SPEAKER_723: Uh, we're going to add 2,400 people this year, full-time employees, and then tens of thousands of

SPEAKER_905: contractors. Yeah. I've seen that movie before. I know. I mean, I watched it with Uber and Robinhood

SPEAKER_719: as they were adding, you know, one person a day, then it was five new people. And then now you've just got training and recruitment and just trying to keep that culture tight and make sure you hire the right people. Well, listen, uh, you have to go, uh, and we're way over time. I appreciate

SPEAKER_728: you taking the time and being so, man. I appreciate it. All right. Give it up for Chase. Thanks guys.