David Friedberg: if you like the ai coding tools you have today you're going to like them a whole lot more down the road as well as being hyper competitive bitters is also extremely cooperative how much money do you need to raise to put together a compelling subnet pitch pre-launch it's less

SPEAKER_04: about the amount as a fixed total it's more about validation you might be an amazing ml engineer you might be an incredible full stack dev but bitters is adversarial and the miners are like very very intense they're going to tear you apart you could get wiped out and lose your initial capital this

SPEAKER_06: race is going to yield a lot of steel on steel sharpening as we say sure we actually have some

SPEAKER_04: news that we want to break right here on this week in startups with you guys all right hello and

SPEAKER_09: welcome back to twist my name is alex i'm joined today by my dear friend lon harris lon how are

SPEAKER_10: you doing great happy to be here all right april 22nd 2026 or as we say here at twist a-o 86

SPEAKER_14: how many days it's been that's what we say when we when we remember to say 80 we're we're almost at the exact three month open claw point and i feel like open claw mania is dying down that's how i feel

SPEAKER_06: dying down a little bit hermes agent is doing quite well people are talking about co-work um but i will say and we're going to get to this at the end of the show there are some really awesome open weight models that have come out that are incredibly price and intelligence efficient lon yeah so people might want to take a second look at open clock but on the show today we're talking spacex and cursor the biggest deal in the news in the last six months i want to say uh and then we have a couple of folks from the realm of bit tensor we have the folks from bit starter and then we're going to talk to the people behind subnet 11 that's ning ren it's gonna be an absolute bop yeah

SPEAKER_19: uh but lon break down for us the uh the headlines here of the big xai spacex news well i think first

SPEAKER_21: we should give a shout out to our good friends at plot i don't have my plug it's the first time

SPEAKER_23: i've made it on the show i feel naked my plug pit is over there on the desk and i'm not going to interrupt the show to go right over to get it but plot folks incredible technology we all have a note pin i have the note s pin and what's so amazing about it is that it will it it works in the background you just hit the button it starts recording it puts a little the little light on

SPEAKER_21: so everybody around you can see you're recording it's not this is not a spy camera technology and it not only records notes from you while you're going about your day bits of the conversation whoever you're talking to but it sort of organizes them thoughtfully it's got that ai powered brain so it's not just you know transcribing everything you hear in a big block of text it's giving you the context everything you need to go back search through what was being said find the nugget of information that you need it's really like having a you know second brain that

SPEAKER_14: you can store things in if you are a little forgetful like myself yeah it's incredible for

SPEAKER_28: me to not forget things also mine is currently charging because i use it all the time i forgot to take it off the charger and put it back on for the show that's the message we're both using our

SPEAKER_21: plot pins so much that we're having trouble getting them together for the show because they're in use

SPEAKER_32: currently folks and they actually have really great battery life so i think this is more just you and i

SPEAKER_06: be disorganized but if you want to get your own plod note pin s you can go to plod dot a-i-p-l-a-u-d dot ai slash twist use the code twist save ten percent stop forgetting things take excellent notes put ai to work for you plod we love them thanks guys for sponsoring the show as jaykel says

SPEAKER_23: we applaud plod back to the space space yes so the big news yesterday everybody freaked out in the afternoon it was it was like right after we recorded another show and it was like ah so we'll talk about it now spacex and cursor are partnering on ai models of course cursor the popular ai coding model and harness company they're going to work together to create and i quote the world's best

SPEAKER_21: coding and knowledge work ai as a team or as cursor put it we're partnering with spacex to improve composer so the idea is that it's it's sort of a collaboration but it's also sort of an early announcement of a potential acquisition spacex is going to either pay cursor 10 billion dollars for this model collaboration that they're working on or they're going to at the end of designing this

SPEAKER_23: model just buy cursor out for 60 billion dollars by the end of 2026 at some point so it's an

SPEAKER_21: interesting like the original announcements were all like as spacex buying cursor and like maybe at one point maybe sort of trial running it for the next few months so why does this deal make sense

SPEAKER_09: from a headline perspective it's pretty simple cursor has done a very good job competing with

SPEAKER_06: codex from open ai and also cloud code from anthropic as those two coding products lawn have become really the de facto of the industry cursor has continued to grow it's reached i think two billion in annualized run rate as of earlier this year a very impressive number and i would say most critically they released composer 2 which is their latest model that they built for themselves it was announced a couple weeks back and it does seem to perform quite well against industry standard benchmarks i.e it's competitive with the models from the best companies yes all right so why does that matter if your xai which is now part of spacex well xai had a really big hit coding model called grok code fast one right it was incredibly cheap it was incredibly quick everyone used it it took over open router for a while but since then the company has not been at the tip of the spear as we might say in the ai coding game so what does xai have a lot of compute what does cursor have a model that's quite good and the chops to make more you put the two together you take xai's gpu clusters and composers ai model making skills and in

SPEAKER_23: theory lon it's a match made in heaven yeah well i mean we've seen so much discussion just in the last few weeks there's more in the docket about this about how every one of these companies now feels like they need their own ai coding product that's locked in that's best in class like that's what's driving so much of this industry everybody again as you said trying to compete with the clawed codes of the world the codexes of the world we had that google all hands red alert from uh sergey brin the other day he's basically saying the same thing like where are we why isn't gemini best of class and the thing every developer is using so i think it's interesting sort of looking at it from outside that that particular tool that that form function of the ai coding assistant has become essentially what's driving the

SPEAKER_41: entire ai industry at this point absolutely here is the benchmarks that uh cursor put up when they

SPEAKER_06: put out composer 2 their recent model and as you can see if you're on the audio version it's basically a little bit behind gpt 5.4 but it's ahead of opus 4645 and composer 1.5 right of course the

SPEAKER_45: preceding generation this was not updated for 47 though how dare they no no it's it's not it's

SPEAKER_22: it's not our fault that anthropic's been cooking quite a lot in cursors those teens in discord who

SPEAKER_15: are already using mythos i hope they can tell us how that stacks up i don't know if you followed that

SPEAKER_49: sir oh yeah we'll get to that but the other thing that's really important here is that cursor has a lot

SPEAKER_06: of developer market share yes and what that unlocks for the company is a lot of information about how people are using its models in a production environment uh you can learn from the logs the traces call it what you will there is an opt-out built into how cursor functions lawn so you can't just expect them to have every piece of data from every single user or customer but probably there's enough people opting in to share that they have a pretty good corpus of information on a day-to-day basis yeah so xai doesn't have that because their coding models have not been as well received as those from other companies right so data and models from cursor and then a lot of compute from xai spacex i think that there's two prices here that are different so the 10 billion dollar number is very

SPEAKER_09: expensive like to partner with a company to work on for a single product if you're like we got this new

SPEAKER_23: model out of it we really love it like 10 10 peanuts is a big number yeah 10 peanuts is a big number and

SPEAKER_09: we don't know exactly how cost will be shared you know is cursor going to pay for some of the power

SPEAKER_06: bill over at uh xai's colossus you know supercomputers or not but 60 billion dollars is not a large number because as we've seen recently cursor is considering raising capital today at a 50 billion dollar right

SPEAKER_23: and so exactly to the end of the year presumably you would be well above the 60 billion so theoretically spacex could be getting a little bit of a discount on that by where we expect cursor to be in december

SPEAKER_41: absolutely so it's kind of a call option on buying cursor yeah it's a big old big old call option so

SPEAKER_06: the risk that i would say spacex xia are taking is what if this partnership doesn't bear the fruit they're hoping it does and they're still on the hook for 10 billion dollars right i did have one

SPEAKER_14: other financial question and i i look to you alex as somebody who's a little bit smarter about this

SPEAKER_23: than me we also have been hearing a whole lot about a spacex ipo in the imminent future is there a chance that this is narrative in some way that this is part of the storytelling as we go into the ipo like look at these massive deals maybe if you were a little skeptical about xai because of the model situation well now you have this very reassuring news that they're going to be teaming with one of

SPEAKER_57: the leaders in that space and so forth yeah hiring can be its own full-time job and hey guess what i already have a full-time job i make podcasts and i invest but when you're running a small company we both know every hire matters you don't want to waste any of the seats you have at your company and the best partner you can have is linkedin hiring pro why there's a billion people using linkedin all the great talent are there if you're proud of your work you build a linkedin page and you update it linkedin hiring pro is going to streamline and simplify the entire process for you nearly 60 of companies using linkedin hiring pro you're going to get an incredible candidate to interview in the first week and you know we're looking for a new producer for the pod we did shout outs here on the show we posted it on my social media we asked friends you know where we found our next great hire linkedin and it was competitive we had like three or four really good choices so hire right the first time post your first job and get a hundred dollars off towards your post at linkedin.com hiring pro offer that's linkedin.com hiring pro offer terms and conditions apply so spacex going public by itself

SPEAKER_09: is a two-part business it's a launch company and it's also a satellite internet company and the latter

SPEAKER_06: half of that's been very very profitable for space that's based on what xai and x i mean if that's also sort of part and part and then then you have the other two things xai and x as you said x let's just go ahead and say it's breakeven probably somewhere in and around that or the losses or profits from it are not really material compared to the scale of space launch starlink and xai but the problem is xai brings a lot of costs with it it brings i think a little bit of debt it spends a lot of money on gpus it is not cheap to build essentially overnight one of the world's largest compute clusters so if you're an investor looking at this kind of elon conglomerate if you will there are some clear financial winners today and there are some bets that may pay off later on but you're going to pay for those bets now right so i think you're dead on this is a way to change the narrative a little bit xai is not merely the third or fourth place company in the current ai model game it is now the partner potential owner of cursor a multi-billion dollar revenue company that has a lot more developer mind share so it does i think ameliorate some concerns but it's doing so at the cost of 10 or 60 billion dollars and we don't know long today if those sums are predicated on cash stock or a mix

SPEAKER_62: because it could either be debt you have to raise cash you have to burn or shares you have to issue

SPEAKER_21: yeah or a combination as is so often in the ai industry it's sort of purely theoretical at this

SPEAKER_14: point we could talk about it it's on paper but it it's not really anything concrete that we can sort of look at the look at the numbers and break down at this point it's a problem i also it is it is a

SPEAKER_06: promise but i i do think that when you're thinking about the size of the prize it's worth taking some expensive swings and so the reason why i'm not shouting about the 10 billion dollar fee essentially is because i do think that if you get very good at writing a creating ai models that can do coding you're much closer to recursive self-improvement right which is when an ai model can work on itself and improve itself so right now i think we consider the the cursors and the cloud codes of the world as individual accelerants for developers and development teams but if you want to build the ai model that can improve itself long term you're going to need to have at a minimum state-of-the-art coding shops if

SPEAKER_09: not the market leading option and and xai just isn't there right so a way to trim the page it's that

SPEAKER_23: flywheel it's that the more developers that are using it to code the more data you're getting about good coding the better the model becomes and so and so as we look to potentially agi or

SPEAKER_67: models that can write brilliant beautiful code without a human in the loop ever whoever has the most data theoretically wins and then there's the uh the future component to this

SPEAKER_28: here's a tweet from uh jason who's out today uh he'll be back later on don't worry he's not off the show just off for today we kicked him out uh he said i mean everyone gets a day off here

SPEAKER_06: hostile takeover folks hostile takeover so jason says uh fire emoji wow very strategic and bold move colossus which is the xai supercomputer is a super weapon for space x already can you imagine when it scales to the stars right so the i the other part of this is let's say you do get let's say let's just say xai buys cursor spacex buys cursor the the experiment works out they take all that data and learning and model prowess and they make something fantastic okay then what right now xai has i think the the only example of a compute glut in the ai game but if they make a model that is as good as they

SPEAKER_28: hope that's going to become a compute shortage overnight as everybody switches over from the

SPEAKER_23: clods of the world to the groks of the world and then all of a sudden they're there at the center of

SPEAKER_28: everything yeah but today anthropic is you know throttling blocking turning people off trying to

SPEAKER_06: just keep itself online github uh copilot stopped signing up new individual paid accounts to you know hold

SPEAKER_10: back compute everyone's struggling i'm not even doing writing code i'm like doing tweets and claude is

SPEAKER_23: like hang on brother i need a break give me 45 minutes like and i'm not i'm not taking apart

SPEAKER_06: our back end or anything i'm just but if you do believe that spacex has a chance at building orbital data centers which we've talked about the uh star cloud which was 500 company then you can kind of

SPEAKER_10: sketch out a future in which they have the best coding model and the most compute right which is a lot

SPEAKER_14: a lot of clearly that's elon's vision as we become a you know i forget what the what the russian name is like as we pursue becoming a various higher level civilization and powering our data centers

SPEAKER_23: directly from the sun obviously we would need to have the best compute and the best models in space

SPEAKER_10: we're trying to become a kardashev level two civilization and if you don't know what that means you are not spending enough time reading science fiction fix that um this is a data set from

SPEAKER_06: open router and what it shows is the most popular coding models i think this is the last week maybe the last day but lon if you take a look at this you see some open models from folks like moonshot which

SPEAKER_09: is chinese minimax chinese step one chinese nvidia anthropic uh open ai and that's it and so i think that this is probably the fire they're trying to put out they have to get back on this board they have to

SPEAKER_06: become competitive and so maybe a 10 billion dollar bet for a company that's supposed to be worth 1.25 trillion is and this is an odd thing to say it's it's pocket change it's not that much money in that context it's three mlb teams i guess given the recent sale price it's still a lot of money but

SPEAKER_23: yes in in perspective of what these companies are doing it might make more sense well no matter what

SPEAKER_06: uh i think the takeaway for folks out there is that if you like the ai coding tools you have today

SPEAKER_09: you're going to like them a whole lot more down the road because lord above there is more improvement coming this race is going to yield a lot of steel on steel sharpening as we say and i think it's

SPEAKER_06: going to turn everyone into um i mean just superhuman developers i can't wait we're already seeing it i

SPEAKER_21: mean these these products are coming out at an insane insanely rapid rate open claw i feel like

SPEAKER_23: is updated every other day there's a new version so yeah like the the drive to become the new clawed code is massive and incredibly intense as as intense as any race i think we've seen in tech since i've been

SPEAKER_06: following it in fact you know alan why don't we talk to a couple of folks from the world of bit tensor and see what uh ai coding model and harness they are using i would love to so i want to bring up here to the stage uh our dear friends chris zaccaria and uh brian mccrindle from bitstarter and they are in

SPEAKER_90: the gen z hype house podcast studio with mood lighting boys welcome to the show look at that

SPEAKER_91: thank you very much great to be here yeah doesn't it look beautiful it does what does orange lighting

SPEAKER_93: signify what what mood is that our logo is orange so actually it looks like we set it up this way

SPEAKER_22: but um that was pure chocolate completely plain yeah i feel like it's it's calming it's giving me it's giving me a calming soothing vibe i was getting halloween vibes uh but listen guys before we get into

SPEAKER_06: what bitstarter does i'm curious for your own development work for the company what are you

SPEAKER_95: guys using these days you mean in terms of ai tools yeah yeah opus 4.7 tooled up to the max code and co-work 24 7. they're too good maxing alex i'm like i'm like consistently on like three

SPEAKER_99: instances of cloud code and composer and like making them fight against each other wow oh wow yeah um

SPEAKER_06: so what would it take for you guys to swap out your anthropic um and uh composer models for

SPEAKER_28: something from xai like how much better would they have to get viz the starting story of the show oh

SPEAKER_100: well brian's the founding engineer so i think uh that's one for you um yeah honestly for me it's

SPEAKER_99: always just like ease of use in the sense of like whatever one of the most valuable things is not impeding someone's workflow like i wouldn't want to go have to download another tool that's not cleave based or something that's you know isn't clearly better like there's a bunch of people who are like at the edge of everything and they want to use absolutely every single tool but that's not the vast majority of engineers right it just needs to be known to be the best i need to see it on the leaderboards i need to see it on on places like arena if you guys know where arena lm arena oh yeah oh yeah you know it just needs to be like i think there was a whole push for cloud code um and it was very very clear that it was the best and then i moved over and said yep that's that's obvious

SPEAKER_09: uh i have some arena data here for anyone curious so this is a uh a rundown of the leading ai labs in

SPEAKER_06: the coding context uh grouped and so the current leaderboard is anthropic then z.ai the chinese company behind the really solid glm 5.1 model alibaba with the quinn family open ai of course gpt 5.4 codex google moonshot xiaomi minimax then xai then deep seek so that's the top 10 in the world today uh that's kind of a shocking list a lot of chinese companies they're doing quite well i'm encouraged by that but guys let's talk about bitstarter so we have been going deep in the world of bit tensor i've talked to so many subnets we've learned so much and it's been an absolute treat to see how the economics function but you guys have put together kind of an on-ramp if you will to bit tensor via bitstarter which you guys kind of called the kickstarter uh program so what we want

SPEAKER_112: to know is why couldn't we use kickstarter for this why is there is yeah is there something in

SPEAKER_115: the kickstarter rules it's like no subnets here's a startup truth bomb a lot of founders have no idea what's actually going on with their money if that's true of your company hey no judgments i know you're busy hiring building your product go to market all that important stuff but your company needs a reliable financial partner not a lifestyle brand okay grasshopper is a real federally chartered digital bank that's not trying to win you over with a rewards program instead they're building deep integrations treasury products that are going to actually help you expand your runway and innovative tools like an mc-based ai connector oh man that's awesome we can connect it to all of our agents and do reporting and that will put you in command of your money as a twist listener you're going to get five hundred dollars cash bonus just for opening an account think of that you open an account boom there's five hundred dollars in it so leap on over to grasshopper dot bank slash twist and use the promo code twist as a twist listener you're going to get a 500 cash bonus just for opening an account grasshopper dot bank twist i'd i'd love to see someone try and maybe that should have been the

SPEAKER_95: prototype but for a decentralized network bit tensor's launches back say a year ago were really opaque and had an information asymmetry where it was investors who were in the know who could um decide whether or not a team got launched and it was retail chasing after once the subnet had already gone to um the protocol and was already pumping so that was one big reason why we wanted to create a system whereby hey what if we could launch teams together in a distributed way and give uh retail the same chance as investors get the same otc style terms that you'd normally only get if you're an investor

SPEAKER_04: in return for crowdfunding a team to the protocol and getting them over that um initial investment hump

SPEAKER_06: and building on bit tensor okay so it's kind of community it's kind of being a a purpose driven product in terms of it does one thing very well i guess my question is how much money do you need to raise to put together a compelling subnet pitch pre-launch and then is that raised in usd a stable

SPEAKER_04: or tau right which is the bit tensor token if you didn't know great question so it's less about the um the amount as a fixed total it's more about validation and what i mean by that is would this actually work on bit tensor you might be an amazing ml engineer you might be an incredible full stack dev but bit tenser is different it's adversarial you're designing for a game theoretic ai environment and the miners are like very very intense they're going to tear you apart so you might think you've got an amazing business idea and a great white paper you've got the github repo but if you don't validate that it's going to work in a distributed adversarial system then it's more like you could get wiped out and lose your initial capital right so yeah go ahead alex well the the reason why i i like

SPEAKER_09: this lawn is that it sets up a way to kind of screen out the crap and then therefore allows people to have more confidence in both backing new subnets but also investing in the ones that have already made it but here's the thing it doesn't feel super decentralized to need um bespoke on ramps if that

SPEAKER_06: makes sense so tell me tell me if i'm being overly precious here but it does seem like when i talk to folks in the realm of bit tensor we talk about community and kind of caring for the ecosystem which is all well and good but it sounds a bit more like a gardener pruning a tree than letting a

SPEAKER_01: forest grow wild well i want to get brian's take on this as well but my take on it would be bit tensor

SPEAKER_04: alex is absolutely right it's meant to be that way it's meant to be super competitive right but bit sense is also as well as being hyper competitive it's also extremely cooperative in that there's a lot of like cross-pollination there's a lot of openness between the teams there's a lot of collaboration there too right there's a lot of like shared resources we go to the same conferences people know each other and it's the combination of the two it's the integration of competition and collaboration that really succeeds the thing that was getting me about the um about launches was that because it um the funding to get the subnet slot was really concentrated in about maybe four different types of investors a subnet slot can cost say quarter of a million dollars maybe more in tau and that's burnt now so that's that's a sunk cost so if you have to go to investors to say hey can you give me that initial startup capital their terms are often like okay we'll give it to you we'll give you that

SPEAKER_95: initial 100k but you have to give us 20 of emissions in perpetuity and then suddenly you get like a small group of investors owning like 80 of the teams on the protocol right hence hey what if we crowdfunded it

SPEAKER_04: that way you don't have these investors who have to put up that first uh quarter of a million and the teams aren't weighed down by having to give away 20 30 of their emissions forever which means less to

SPEAKER_21: spend the same yeah that's an insane cut there are only like 128 i believe subnets on in total so

SPEAKER_23: how competitive is it for each of those slots is there like a long waiting list for like some company has to go out of business for you to take over the subnet like what what is that marketplace like

SPEAKER_99: yeah i mean there there definitely is a process of like submit deregistration right um so you know there needs to be there there is like people have been deregistered in the past sorry about that um people have been deregistered in the past um but really when it comes down to it is that like you know the competitiveness comes down to like the price of actually registering a slot um fluctuates it's not a fixed cost right it's this dynamic number that changes like if i register okay well it's going to double the next time someone else wants to register so there's like a market value to registering and it becomes basically like can you register something before

SPEAKER_139: somebody else at a certain amount of money and if you need that amount of capital

SPEAKER_28: yeah so it's a bit like the the sports franchise model like um there's a new nwsl team they had to

SPEAKER_06: pay a 205 million dollar fee to join a limited number of teams so you're kind of buying you know the the boston basketball the equivalent slot as part of the business or subnet group exactly and some

SPEAKER_95: slots have more liquidity than others so one of the first subnets if you get say you know one of the

SPEAKER_04: the first 20 or 40 subnets it will probably have a lot more alpha in it than um a subnet that was registered later so handshake 58 what you're on now this is on subnet 58 this slot has a lot more um alpha on it than say subnet 120. so that means more liquidity which means more capital to spend

SPEAKER_95: up front on the things that you need so there's also competition there why does it have more alpha i

SPEAKER_09: thought alpha tokens were the the subsidiary tokens on a per subnet basis that were used to incentivize the miners and validators i didn't know that they were that they varied in quantity based on subnet

SPEAKER_04: number no like i'm missing something here it's what it's when they were registered they start emitting alpha so some of them got registered over a year ago so they've emitted more in that time they all

SPEAKER_148: have the same fixed total yeah there's always a new corner in the tensor land for me to look around

SPEAKER_149: and go i didn't know that well can you imagine starting a subnet alex and not knowing this stuff and being like wait hold on a minute what i think there's um there's like some really strong intrinsic

SPEAKER_99: value to what bitstarter is trying to do right like there's you know so i i um primarily work at macrocosmos um you guys have had will and stefan on here in the past great folks and just learning how to go through the process of creating a subnet and doing everything from two years ago like when there was almost nobody in the ecosystem and people knew and like but there's a lot of tribal knowledge like bitstarter was like the very first really official and uh initiative that was trying to give back to the community and say okay i there's this whole treasure trove of information that you

SPEAKER_139: need like you need to go from zero to one really really fast and that's how you're going to be

SPEAKER_141: successful yeah so you guys add credibility and guidance but also i feel like if if a subnet goes

SPEAKER_06: through bitstarter given your guys you know place inside the ecosystem it's a really big stamp of

SPEAKER_95: approval it's credibility essentially instantly yeah we we try and bring together a mixture of

SPEAKER_04: experts of the best people on the protocol to give free discretionary advice to the applications that come in the ones that pass our initial review we help them build up their proposal we then share it with across across um section of the ecosystem people have run validators miners um jacob the co-founder of bit tensor is on the advisory panel and it's through their advice and their um commentary that helps improve the application if you're a subnet um a prospective subnet owner you don't have to take their advice but it means that lots of senior people in the protocol have had a chance to help you if you want it and then even if not you get to pitch it live on air through our show so that you can find your people and at the beginning it can be really hard to get attention on your subnet like lon said there are 128 of them so by starting out by you've got the best people in the protocol looking it over you've got backing from people who've built it before to improve your um uh your proposal and then you go live on air with a uh crowdfund behind you we've gotten like up to 2000 people before it was like the second most spot show on bit tensor after novelty search which jacob posts so you get a chance to find your people make your case and then hit the ground running notion is the

SPEAKER_57: ai-powered connected workspace for teams it brings all your notes docs and projects into one space that just works and with ai built right in you spend less time switching between tools and apps and more time creating great work and now with notions custom agents busy work that used to take hours or never got done at all runs itself custom agents automate all of your team's repetitive workflows and they live inside notion already maybe you want to keep track of what everybody's working on maybe you want to see which pages are getting edited maybe you want an analysis of what your team is working on i'm constantly constantly getting disturbed by pings and pings from slack by team members with all these questions now notion's q a agent can research the answers from anywhere on the platform and get back to those people directly in slack you can design custom agents on your own but notion has a bunch of pre-trained ones ready to go try custom agents now at notion.com twist that's all lowercase letters notion.com twist and when you use our link you're supporting our show and keeping it free and vibrant

SPEAKER_21: notion.com twist have you uh noticed any i mean you've run a lot of these competitions now or a lot

SPEAKER_23: of these sort of projects are there certain kinds of projects or certain kinds of pitches that get everybody's attention and sort of do better naturally on the system like i know kickstarter always worked

SPEAKER_60: that way people are always like oh you got to put like a horror short the horror does great over

SPEAKER_95: there you know that kind of stuff right yeah that's the exciting thing is that what are the parameters what are the best startups for building on distributed systems what does a community like

SPEAKER_04: bit sensor really respond to what turns them on and a lot of it actually comes down to the founders and the founding team and there was a team we launched um back in january we did it live from davos and no one had heard of them they've been in stealth mode they were two tenured professors from an east coast university and then the the other one has a chair at harvard in philosophy and they also have an ai podcast and run a hedge fund and they've got it they had a business already um built and launched in the same sector that they were going to build the southern end and that we we completed their raise in under an hour that was 600 tau so that when you have great founders no one's heard of them there's this element of like surprise we dial people in from different um parts of bit tensor to give their perspective that can be great but long term what you're looking for is what are the types of problems that are best solved in a distributed system and what do they need to succeed when they hit the protocol there's the liquidity pool management there's the social media aspect there are managing the miners and the validators so it's a really complex entity we're tracking every team we launch so we can learn as we go what really leads to success it's a little bit like subnet

SPEAKER_21: university it's a little bit like with these for founders but for for people specifically in subnets

SPEAKER_06: that's what it makes me think but you know if jason gives you money he gets stock in return so i'm curious bitstarter as a project makes sense to me now really appreciate the explanation is it designed to be a revenue generating business or is it more uh a community arm of the bit tensor folks to help get people onto subnets that are being either misused or underused we we take three percent of

SPEAKER_04: emissions for the first 90 days after they get to um post-launch um that's a lot smaller than what a lot of other incubators take but we our mission was to build bit tensor better i know that actually subnet owners only get 18 of total emissions because 41 goes to miners 41 goes to validators if you take more than that right what tends to happen is that they don't have as much disposable capital to spend on things like recruitment or infrastructure which means that they tend to

SPEAKER_95: struggle a bit more when they get to mainnet whereas my gamble was well if we take less from

SPEAKER_04: them and we bring in more partners at the start they can spend the money on the partnerships that will

SPEAKER_169: help them to thrive they'll be less weighed down by someone taking passive income from them yeah and i

SPEAKER_171: think there's there's also a big a big bet in there too right where you're you're investing in

SPEAKER_99: them taking less with with the hope that their alpha also appreciates right like you want them to be successful you want them to go through the whole process of like being creating something state-of-the-art

SPEAKER_100: creating something that's going to change a bit tensored or change technology in some way um because then the relative value of that three percent is way higher yeah yeah yeah but it's kind

SPEAKER_28: of staggering that people would want to take 20 or 30 percent of emissions in perpetuity and you're

SPEAKER_06: taking three percent for 90 days is how do the economics work out on your end because that could be

SPEAKER_28: a a smaller sum of money if those tokens don't appreciate greatly in the future so are you willing to just kind of eat the work just for the sake of the the networks overall at the beginning it was

SPEAKER_04: really important to prove that this works no one ever tried this on bid tensor before you're you're pledging tau for future alpha emissions and we wanted to prove that it would work the 90 days three percent thing it's perfectly viable but it's harder to work with teams long term what happens when we launch 12 teams or 20 right we'll be able to work with each one long term so um we actually um are setting up a venture studio so that we can put up front more of the investment in launching a team and then be able to incubate and accelerate teams for much longer periods of time and in fact we actually have some news that we want to break right here on this week in startups with you guys all

SPEAKER_95: right let's do it news look at that which i i wanted it to be enough of a surprise i didn't even tell you guys beforehand like in the uh backstage but um thanks by the way there's nothing like doing things

SPEAKER_04: live huh so uh we our second team that we launched summit 24 quasar um they do long context models and intelligence that means that they're looking to expand context windows for llms we launched them in january three months later they're about to release their own model and they were there they're close to being in the top 10 subnets they have a fully diluted value of about 84 million dollars um uh and uh what they were doing impressed um jacob so much that he decided to back them himself and um that happened to another team that we launched as well and so when we were talking to jacob about it jacob said i want you guys to help bring more machine learning research teams onto the protocol and i want us to be able to build like a full fully decentralized tech stack for bit tensor where we bring in the top machine learning startups and research teams to build on the protocol so jacob has given us funding to register subnet slots um for machine learning research teams in a new machine learning uh track on bitstarter where we'll be working with teams across the protocol to deliver state-of-the-art across a number of benchmarks working with teams like macrocosmos like targon who have already pushed the boundaries to bring in the best machine learning researchers incubate them

SPEAKER_28: and help them to succeed on bit tensor so to help them succeed on bit tensor though implies that well

SPEAKER_06: one congratulations should have started with that uh but it implies that there's enough room for them and one thing that i keep kind of looping back to is this hard cap of 128 uh subnet slots i know it was 64 back in the day but to to get all these ml engineers that you're hoping to have into the ecosystem to me implies you're going to need more total parking spots so is that something that's being discussed is that coming or is much like the 21 million bitcoin cap is 128 the the end of it it

SPEAKER_04: definitely isn't the end of it there it will expand and when jacob was on um uh novelty search to talk about conviction um he said that it will they're definitely going to expand it to five six soon i think when we went up to one to eight it um the quality got a little bit uneven and was spreading out emissions over more subnets there there isn't really a hard limit it's already a very very large chain bit tensor for a layer one but it can handle more and it will go up again subnets get deregistered right now every couple of weeks and other subnets are for sale so we've had a lot of new entrants in the past week alone we've had about three new subnets come in so the recycling is actually quite strong it's like what you were saying earlier alex it's really intense competition so

SPEAKER_100: with the deregistration we can get a new team in every month yeah it's okay there's a um sustainably

SPEAKER_99: it's very hard to run a subnet like the the the process of trying to do everything from the marketing to the engineering to the socials to the to the organizing of your own company right like there's a lot of different components there so like it just naturally the churn is going to be high uh yeah so you know like institutions like or like microcosmos or or yeah like targon or the shoots or the the quasars of the world you know they've gone through that process and been able to be successful and again that's what you know um bitstarter is trying to do is to like pull out you out from the churn right but there is there's still a lot but yeah fundamentally like you should be able to go to like you know eventually it'll be to 256 and then it'll be 1028 and whatever that whatever that comes to being but there's definitely space within the ecosystem of bit tensor to have more machine learning like i think for me for what i've seen in the past couple years there was like a few really good nuggets of ideas and research llms and then we went through this huge massive product phase of like expanding the number of subnets and people trying to find product market fit and finding revenue and doing all these sorts of things it almost feels in some way shape or form like the the predominant energy feels like okay we need to do more machine learning we need to do more of this stuff and like that doesn't necessarily mean that there won't be more products in the future of bit tensor but there definitely is a lot of space a growing space to do more like fundamental research to do more collaborative research to do more like fundamental things on bit

SPEAKER_139: tensor to like you know push the field of machine learning and artificial intelligence forward well

SPEAKER_179: this answers the question that lon and i had in our notes which is you know how many more ideas are

SPEAKER_06: feasible for this adversarial decentralized model and it sounds like even inside of the very niche

SPEAKER_09: area of ml in particular because there are different projects out there uh tons of space left to build to to work and to host these competitions yeah so lon i i guess you know maybe we're going to end up

SPEAKER_10: with you know two five six subnets out there more more faster another try to make better stuff your

SPEAKER_99: twist episodes i'm happy to hear it yeah yeah i think i think also too just like putting a um another note in there right like i think the founders um jake and ala and particularly jake like they're very amenable to what the next generation is going to look like right so yeah something happens in the ecosystem and they want to make the right move as fast as they can right and sometimes that that goes well sometimes it goes poorly but i think like that gradient of improvement is really fast it's accelerating and if we find ourselves in a situation where like oh we have so much talent we don't have the space like that that day will come where we just we increase it yeah yeah um i wanted to just touch on

SPEAKER_01: what people actually will get when they submit to the incubator if they're chosen because we will

SPEAKER_04: register the subnet for them so that's the upfront cost that's several hundred tau paid for

SPEAKER_01: we also have a partnership with subnet for targon which is run by manifold labs they're offering free compute to our uh incubated teams um for their uh post-launch period we're also in talks with crucible

SPEAKER_04: labs which is run by um ala who's the other co-founder of bit tensor with jacob um exactly it's confidential compute targon just published a paper um with intel um they are about to launch targon os they have the targon virtual machine and by all accounts it's highly reliable which is what you need when you're doing say pre-training of a model um quasar already have a partnership with targon and it's helped them to train their models so we're creating a system whereby we've got a cross protocol um selection of existing infrastructure that can help power the latest ml researchers to success long term for these other subnets it's good for them commercially and it helps to create like a network

SPEAKER_194: effect of uh machine learning research on bit tensor so there's several kind of like individual

SPEAKER_06: loops that improve things as you make better models you can bring those to bear another subnet competitions therefore those will yield better results therefore bring in more people competition for emissions goes up tau becomes more valuable the ecosystem is worth more and then suddenly more people show up yeah it's a it's a great idea here's the thing that i want to flip around though jason's a huge bull we talk about it all all the time on the show what's bit tensor's weakness like if you had to pick one like the thing that keeps you up at night what's what's the other side of this

SPEAKER_99: of this coin with it with every technology that there's there's always there's always some weakness i think one of the things is like it's very difficult to find the right project um right like i think it can be very difficult to find parameterize your problem in the right way to get the actual most benefit out of it um it's it's kind of an art and it takes a lot again it takes a lot of time to figure out what that looks like sometimes you can find a problem where if you know you're not expressive enough like you just won't be you won't be better than the version that you created because you've been the one thinking about this problem for many months if not years and trying to launch it on bit tensor if you don't do that in the right way you won't end up in in a good place right so again like places like bitstarter are trying to circumvent this where you know you can talk to someone like myself or talk to someone else in the community and be like oh obviously that won't work and you can you can go further with this um yeah do you have anything that you want to say chris i think

SPEAKER_01: its biggest weakness is the same as its biggest strength and it's captured in this phrase which is

SPEAKER_04: if your system only works when people play by the rules your system doesn't really work bit tensor you

SPEAKER_95: have to design your product as if as if it's for the people exploiting it because you know that they're going to get you it's going to get exploited you have to think in this really unusual inverse way where you're like you have to design it with the exploit in mind so that it's almost like a jujitsu move whereby when people go to exploit you you use that power against them and it gets stronger right and thinking like that is very unusual we don't think like that in most of life because your miners are your

SPEAKER_21: users and normally you'd be like we got to do everything we can to make this as smooth and clean and enjoyable for them as possible but in this case it's like yeah but they're also trying to screw

SPEAKER_23: me and so i have to like navigate around that in advance yeah so so you're creating you're not

SPEAKER_95: launching a business or a startup you're launching a network right and actually networks are the more appropriate home for ai than a business which is limited proprietary closed bot that's not where ai is eventually going to live and the clue is in nature right look at how intelligence develops in in natural in the natural world it didn't develop in a single place it developed through the survival of the fittest natural selection in a distributed system of predator and prey that's exactly how we're building intelligence on bit tensor minor validator right you're creating you're distributing the roles and you're creating the adversarial environment for that to grow so it is the better home for it it's just if you thought running a startup was hard try running a bit tensor subnet running the process

SPEAKER_06: of evolution yeah i was gonna say darwinian evolution via natural selection aka bit tensor that's gonna bring in all the founders man it sounds super easy but if people do want to find

SPEAKER_09: out more about the program you've just announced uh apart from going to bitstarter.ai your main site

SPEAKER_04: where can they go to learn more so we will be um opening submissions next week um we have a submissions portal for that um we are going to be um incubating three teams a quarter so uh applications will open app.bitstarter.ai you can also follow us on x i'm at macrazac also uh at bitstarterai so we'll be announcing the eligibility process there and we already have a couple of applications that we had

SPEAKER_169: beforehand that we put into the track and we'll be publishing the guidelines as well all right well

SPEAKER_09: guys we're super stoked about it when you have your first three uh come back on the show and tell us all about them because we're always here to learn more about awesome subnets thank you both so much

SPEAKER_19: for your time and you can now turn off the uh the halloween light behind you thank you very much next up we're going to bring ning ren up from trajectory rl ning welcome to the show yeah hi i'm very happy to

SPEAKER_10: join the podcast we're delighted to have you we're absolutely stoked so we're going to go from the macro

SPEAKER_09: picture of the bit tensor economy down to a single subnet uh what we'd love to hear from you first is the pitch what does subnet 11 trajectory rl do yeah okay let me introduce myself a little bit so i'm a

SPEAKER_214: founder and ceo at the trajectory rl so today i also is the new like a company running on bit tensor

SPEAKER_215: so if i put one sentence to describe the trailer so it is a new type of software company software company is building softwares for not for humans but for ai agents so nowadays we call it we call them skills but the future like when we come up like a better name but uh now like we um like running a company like continuously producing such skills on softwares for ai agents but like i said like now everybody is talking about like cloud code hermes and you talk about co-workers like everybody using it so if you think about this so we are in the middle and very early days of a paradigm of platform shift like those air agents become the new like computer platform it becomes a new smartphone come new the operating system just like any other existed opportunities operating system before like they really need software to power them up to be useful like now like if you see around like there are some skill hubs like all around one like people still writing skills by hand like using them by like coger tools like yeah like but like we envision like future most of those skills will be written not by him but by ai agents so this is the yeah for some people out there who are a little bit behind

SPEAKER_09: um a skill is a skill.md file it's essentially plain text it's it's the written word not code and it's

SPEAKER_06: essentially a set of instructions to help an ai model or agent do one thing in particular is that

SPEAKER_215: fair ning oh yeah so like it's not necessarily be only a skilled md it can be a combination like a skill like some like md files combine some python file like code examples i can some like logic to tell the agent how to do some like a business in a domain yeah i think it could be like your personal

SPEAKER_223: crm it could be a twitter post like a writing tool it could be a website creating tool yeah we've had

SPEAKER_28: a lot of these in our open clock conversations for example um so we just had the folks on from

SPEAKER_06: bitstarter talking about the economics of running a subnet so tell us how trajectory rl uses bit tensor

SPEAKER_112: to create and encourage the creation of better skills if you think about this it's very like an

SPEAKER_215: interesting problem like how we can organize so basically we use bit tensor to our our chest treat like the agents all over the world to compete to collaborate to write a good skilled md or the like a skill pack like i think the first challenge we have is to create a good benchmark tools because now if you see around there is no good way to measure like how a skill like running on a agent right people just like many people don't always use like this is a very like innovation we create and so we basically we create a sandbox like like technically we call it sandbox but you you can think of it as a puzzle puzzle box like the agent come an agent can come like called hermes can come and open the the puzzle box and there are some tools included in the in the box and it just i gave a puzzle to solve like we we just compare like compete this solving like the like the miner can you can write using any technique to write a good skill the md and the power of agent and to solve this puzzle we just rank and the score

SPEAKER_179: but in this sandbox though each agent would have the same model and harness so that way the individual

SPEAKER_28: skill file would shine versus something else influencing the performance basically same model but like a

SPEAKER_215: different harness so we compare across different harness like harness like the harmony yeah but we want basically know like the skills how it performs like with like different harness as well yeah okay

SPEAKER_06: so lon is a writer and i'm a writer which means that skill files make a lot of sense to us because when it comes to typing out words and sentences that's our bag but i'm curious if that inherent method of creating skills these these markdown files these text files gives them a lower ceiling uh in terms of improvement than if they were done with code or alternatively does it create a higher

SPEAKER_28: ceiling for improvement because they are written in english for example versus in code so i see the

SPEAKER_215: like there is a higher ceiling for the skill so you if you see like there is a theory called the the fact skill scene harness like it means so true like people think that the harness yeah it's more like the operating system is only handle like the file reading and the like talking to the different ims the the like the the input output and there is a core component called resolver to just decide the right time to load the right md file and all this does like the harness doing this well and and the other the rest really magic happen and all the intelligence will happen in the in the skill layer in the skill space like like if you think it's like open you can you can think like you the people will have their own crm like it's a it's a skill like different people people will have that will have different crm a little bit and like like eventually there will be like infinite kind of

SPEAKER_21: kind of skills i mean i guess my question would be i i have a few skills that i've made and i'm not

SPEAKER_23: a coder but just like hey help me with youtube titles or whatever and the way i make them is you know i sort of work on them with claude together until we're happy with how the skill is written up and then it's trial and error i'm trying it oh i forgot to tell it to capitalize or it's using too many m dashes or and we sort of vibe code the skill together for a few hours until it's like perfectly tight so is that essentially the same process that your agents are now replicating or is it more of like thinking about it in advance and taking out the sort of vibe coding time waste period

SPEAKER_215: yeah it's kind of like a similar process but just like nowadays like like you like using right to the skills time deep by hands like but uh we want to rip like replace by you by using agents like uh we designed the mechanism like minor already using agents to write in skilled md this way when they use agent they also use the web webconic tool but they run their benchmark like they matter or the the result of the of the of the skill md and they use the agent to iterate like like you do but they deliver like they have more and more work to the agent to automate this flow this workflow so this is

SPEAKER_09: what i think i think i get this the question then becomes what skills are the most interesting to

SPEAKER_06: set up competitions for to improve because lon just mentioned he's got this youtube title skill a bit niche interesting a lot of people make youtube videos they all need titles true

SPEAKER_10: maybe it's a good point is that is that the the the type of skill that is a good fit for trajectory

SPEAKER_06: rl or is it more general skills that are going to be the early product market fit use case good

SPEAKER_215: question good question so there there can could be like a very different type of of of skills and so we are still we are also exploring like which one could like it's better to mirror and the so so so uh that's why we we started set up seasons like the the first few seasons we want to explore something like a meta skill like it's easy to measure and it's more widely can be widely used like the self-learning skills that this is the first season so we just launched our first season for like less than a week and yeah i can so i can please can share it to you yeah so you can see there are like a different type of skill we can we can measure so like the first season we do like do some like a meta skills called the self-learning and we want to enable the the agents can just uh when when they like encounter some errors they can learn and they can fix them themselves this is the

SPEAKER_223: first season we just launched it for like that's a that's not a week so you can see we create our

SPEAKER_06: benchmark yeah tell people what this chart um shows because a lot of folks ning are on the audio

SPEAKER_215: version so tell them what they're seeing here so basically we bring like some popular self-learning skills because they are already on the skill hub like many other places like to run our benchmark and we also pick the the winner in our like subnet to do a like side by side i post to i post comparison like how um like like how how they work so because because because we can mirror like we create a benchmark so we know so we so we can improve like if you can you you can normally cannot improve so we can so so uh if you see the leaderboard like we only run for a week we already see some that very promising without like our subnet winner already performs a little bit better than the the sota on the market so just by keep running this season we will get our very good like sota self-learning skills yeah so to answer your your question to back to your question yes so we will like compete on more and more different type of skills but we will start from the the like the meta like more like a general meta skills first so we have companies in the world line building ai models

SPEAKER_06: both open and closed source we have bit tensor having several subnets that are working on training models in a decentralized basis and open cases and now with trajectory we have a way to apply the same competitive logic to skills essentially turning each skill file or skill that you can use into an improving process similar to what we see elsewhere okay so the result of this ning is that everyone's agent is going to be more capable and more performant out of the box because the skills you can bring to them are already better okay that makes a lot of sense to me and i would love that i've made some skills too they're garbage so i would love to get some help from the experts yeah i think that

SPEAKER_21: leads to my next question which is i mean conventionally the way i think of skills they're

SPEAKER_23: basically free like somebody designs a skill and then they tweet it out and then they're like hey i wrote this x article about how i trained my new open claw skill and try it out yourself here it is and uh so i mean i think you're sort of looking forward to a future where skills become a lot more dense and a lot more valuable and then there also is is money sort of they're they're they're actually worth something and people would pay you for a skill is that is that the vision and how much do you think people are going to be willing to drop on a really amazing right out of the box skill so i think in

SPEAKER_215: future there definitely will be the business value inside and skills so if you remind the early like 90s early pc days there will be a bunch of free softwares but later like you like the smartphone like app app store like but later there will be super software there will be instagram yeah like like there there so if you like like uh our current mission is to maximize the distribution and installation of the skills and later like there are hundreds ways that you can figure out to to the

SPEAKER_262: like a monetization and do you need to monetize them learning because the way that i was thinking

SPEAKER_09: about the competition uh the bit tensor subnet kind of sell funds via emissions so could you create a

SPEAKER_06: system here that doesn't actually need to have a business on the back end and instead it's essentially

SPEAKER_09: just a recurring competition to create better and better skills and then everyone can use them because you know tau emissions filtering down to the subnet compensate everyone for the work they're doing

SPEAKER_215: already yeah good question so this is actually exactly what we are doing now so we are leveraging the bit tensor incentives to drive the agents to to like submit to optimize the skilled md but like my my thought would be like in the end of the day is that we will still need to find the p the pmf like with you to like um like make money like make a real real product and so we uh we just like take advantage all our way to take benefit from the bitensor to like uh like a co-start us like incorporate us to a state like uh we have like a super massive adoption and we can like uh find a way to to charge to either to like user pay or there's also another very good angle like just track the data so when we run like so many skills and collect so many data those data are also valuable as well so we can sell this to the model we can even try and like find our models to like uh yeah i got i got one more i got one more

SPEAKER_23: question then we'll let you go nick um what is the most valuable or useful skill that's been designed so far on trajectory can you can you walk us through like i want to get a clearer example of like how how intense and awesome these skills are going to be oh okay yeah so since we just we're relatively

SPEAKER_215: new we are like about more than one month on b tensor which launched our first season about less than one week and the first thing about self-learning so we all are already see a good self-learning skills like just about one one week is it's very impressive so people already find some good good good way to write have learning skill though time d so now you can go to our website and and try those skills self-learning skills to just make your agent so if you use them day to day make them like make less mistake and save your tokens solve like a problem more effectively all right well we really

SPEAKER_09: really appreciate it ning um what's the website and uh tell us when season two begins oh since so

SPEAKER_215: so the website is trash rl.com like the rl.com yeah so the season two will be hold like in about uh one month so we so we we we plan to like hold the season one for one month and like it's going to start after that but in the future like as i said we want to drive this process all by agents and we

SPEAKER_227: want to continuously roll up new seasons just by agents we want to build a native company ourselves

SPEAKER_28: well i i freaking love it because i need better skills i think everyone does and i think that this

SPEAKER_06: is such a lightweight easy to share format that if you make a better one the whole world gets to benefit from it so to me there's a lot of really like human positive gains to be had here and that's

SPEAKER_273: just super encouraging you know and thank you thank you guys yeah all right well ning thanks for coming

SPEAKER_09: on the show uh after season two come back and tell us what people have built and tell us how much you're improving the world because uh i want to stop working very soon so i'm hoping that ai gets me

SPEAKER_165: there thanks man appreciate it thank you bye i like thinking about companies in terms of seasons you get to talk about it it's like it's like tv like man i can't wait for season two of trajectory rl they're

SPEAKER_09: gonna really up the stakes i mean that the thing that really blows me away here lon is the simple fact that we're now seeing essentially a decentralized network designed for ml competitions yeah coming together to have the nerds battle it out to write the best sentences in english yeah it is it's funny that

SPEAKER_23: skills are just just marked out i did not even realize that when i was first teaching them open claw i thought it was writing code in there it's like hey claw here's what i want you to do first do that

SPEAKER_06: like oh i could have done this myself i remember when anthropic first announced these i i was reading through the announcement this is back in like what mid 25 late 24 somewhere in there sure and they were like a skill.mg file is a text file with words in it and i'm like what am i missing here this sounds useless why would you ever want that that doesn't do anything and then it turns out that one

SPEAKER_10: they were right now is wrong but also the power of the written word i think that that a lot of the power of

SPEAKER_23: open claw initially to doofuses like me like i'm sure the coders got it immediately like why it was valuable but it was just that it was finally delivering on the you can literally just tell the ai what you want and it'll just do it like we've been promised that for so long and then you would use opicon you would just be in your slack and you'd be like do this and it'd go okay it wouldn't always work but it would say okay yeah and it would like act like it understood you you know what might

SPEAKER_280: be a good model i we should have kept ning on for this but whatever i'll just say now before we move

SPEAKER_23: on have you heard of the the humble bundle model yeah the the gaming like valve games if you buy them you get a bunch a bunch of indie games for one low low price and then you can try them all out

SPEAKER_06: yeah you can get like you know 15 20 games for like 10 bucks and so to me like i love to um contribute to projects that i that i enjoy things that i really love to use if you're a metal band that i follow i i own several heavy metal christmas tree ornaments not because i really need them but because i wanted to support the bands you know so if they did a humble bundle of skills i would so

SPEAKER_21: happily contribute to paying 15 20 or even like 100 bucks frankly i i do i will say i notice how much my skills get better over time as i iterate like every time i notice something i don't like i go back

SPEAKER_23: and fix the skill to like make sure that doesn't happen again and vice versa and so if that if doofus me who's barely paying attention can bring that kind of iteration over time i can only imagine that people who were really focused on and incentivized to make these skills much better they could be 100x better i'm only making it or 3x better because i got other you know one you got to stop you got

SPEAKER_06: to stop with the putting yourself down you're oh i'm a doofus oh i'm not a coder you have been deep in the open claw trenches to the point in which i know the name of your agent which is a weird thing to know it feels a little bit too personal it's like the everyday for blade runner but you you

SPEAKER_293: use open claw a lot you use ai all the time you've made your own skills i did i did use open claw but

SPEAKER_23: my open claw is locked in an aws rack somewhere and he has a lot of trouble getting out like people are very dubious about a bot that's inside aws they're like get out of here you so i actually have switched i'm mostly using claude co-work now because it's much easier to just you're just like here take you're in my notion now and claude goes okay and yeah gaff is like i can't i can't get him what

SPEAKER_06: are you trying to show me can you copy but the same skill and d file the same skill and d file works on both which is incredible it is incredible that that's the power of them all right uh before we go a couple of other things to note folks from the news tickers out there uh angelist just dropped right before we got on air a new product called usvc which is a private market fund designed to give individuals we who have 500 which is the minimum uh exposure long to a number of major names in

SPEAKER_162: the world of venture capital sorry yeah i love this is super just who have 500 is like this is an

SPEAKER_06: exclusive group no i mean that's the whole point it's not like like i mean everyone has well i'm not going to say that and get made fun of on the internet but most people can find 500 somewhere and then they could take part in uh venture economics i got to read a little bit of the prospectus and what i learned is this actually operates a bit like a venture fund you put money in you can't take it out right they will be some repurchases on a quarterly basis but mostly you're waiting for exits yeah i see they have

SPEAKER_23: here on the website the power law one investment has the potential to generate a higher return than the rest of their portfolio combined this is why usvc intends to build a bundle not a single bet so

SPEAKER_42: the idea is you even your 500 it's getting spread out so you're not all in on one thing and then you

SPEAKER_09: lose your you lose your shirt yes yeah i think it's a great idea we'll have more about it this is actually one of two products robin hood has a publicly traded venturing fund thing um so this

SPEAKER_10: does seem to be a growing product category as companies stay private i did notice with the

SPEAKER_23: robin hood one they're they're kind of locked out of a lot of the most sought after private companies i wonder if that's going to happen with this as well like like open ai they're not exposed to open ai and the robin hood venture fund and a lot of people were like why not that's what i want do you know

SPEAKER_06: do you know where a lot of venture capital funds run their technology angelist oh well you know what that means angelus has a lot of access there you go so i'm hoping that this is actually actually magic yeah frankly lon my expectation is is high your expectation is magic i'm sorry high expectations are a gift they're welcome uh next up uh the compute the compute wars continued to absolutely go crazy uh two things of note here for everyone out there paying attention lon first of all anthropic and amazon pinned a new deal this week five billion dollars of investment five gigawatts of compute 100 billion dollars of the spend over the next 10 years anthropic to aws and maybe maybe this will solve

SPEAKER_19: the the claude crisis in which everyone gets locked out after 10 minutes theoretically i mean i think

SPEAKER_21: eventually anthropic's got to be worried about how people will eventually solve it which is find another

SPEAKER_23: model to you like i feel like they're they have they have a limited window here to solve this problem

SPEAKER_14: before people are like ah okay i'll try codex you know like it's it's the gap is the gap is closing

SPEAKER_06: and we're talking about ai time frames so whatever you were thinking divide it by 10. yeah exactly you know it's brutal uh the other thing and this came out today is that google has two new chips they make tensor processing units don't forget a scalar is a zero dimensional vector a sorry zero dimensional tensor a vector has a one dimensional tensor tensors have multiple dimensions anyways it matters if you care about data shape versus flatness but their tpus are now on generation eight and they have two different versions one one built for training yes get this tpu-8t and then there's tpu-8i which is for inference i think this is brilliant and i think it goes to show that nvidia is not going to make all the money in the world yeah there's there's going to be i mean we're seeing

SPEAKER_23: there's so many of these companies now that are working on their own isn't there there's trainium

SPEAKER_13: amazon has trainium yep they should really work on the name for because it's just it's like yeah it's not it's inferencing yeah it's like it sounds like a mineral unobtainium from avatar like we'll go one

SPEAKER_06: level deeper on that we'll go we'll go get the pickaxe out and figure out what's going on uh there's also a lot of companies in the startup world etched is working on um a llm sorry a transformer

SPEAKER_165: specific asic right for example cerebrus has those like massive room-sized chips they're working on

SPEAKER_09: the wafer and they refiled to go public uh last friday oh wow it's a very interesting uh return to the markets uh and then i guess lon just one last thing before we go should we just talk for a moment

SPEAKER_90: about uh apple getting a new CEO yeah tim apple is out john apple is uh is it i i'm insisting can we

SPEAKER_23: call him johnny obviously to call the new guy his name is john turnus but i think we should just switch over to calling him john apple now i think that whoever's the ceo of apple you get that becomes

SPEAKER_14: your last name i think that's only fair explain explain why why donald trump messed up one time

SPEAKER_23: and called tim cook tim apple and it's i i i'm not i literally am not even here to make fun of our president i just think it's a very funny thing to call the ceo of apple uh tim apple or john apple so anyway yes apple ceo tim cook uh he's stepping down his executive uh he's up again as ceo and he's going to transition to being executive chairman of apple's board of directors john turnus now john apple uh the current senior vice president of hardware engineering he's stepping into the ceo role i know that a lot of people were very excited that it's it's a hardware guy and and a lot of people are thinking this is going to represent you know rather than somebody who's sort of trying to like squeeze as much money as they can out of the jobs legacy by releasing you know these these new versions of the classic product lineup that here's a guy that's going to like rethink the whole company based on you know silicon and new devices and where they are right now also someone with

SPEAKER_06: incredibly deep dna in the world of apple i went to his linkedin and i pulled this image

SPEAKER_09: um went to school at upenn 93 97 had four years as a ver as an engineer at virtual research and then since july of 2001 uh he's been in apple which is nearly 25 years and that's an impressive run at one company and just goes to show that in the old days you could work for one company yeah for a while you

SPEAKER_21: didn't get laid off all the time i read that he was one of the lead sort of minds behind your new

SPEAKER_23: macbook your macbook neo he was one of the champions of that which has been a well-regarded sort of a rare new apple product that people like and feel good about so there you go it's it's magic

SPEAKER_300: it's magic because it's the first apple product i've ever owned that if i drop a dr pepper onto it

SPEAKER_13: and completely ruin it i don't have to cry i feel like that's very free i feel like i could drop a dr pepper on my iphone and it would stand up to that i don't i don't oh i mean something with a

SPEAKER_14: keyboard oh okay yes yes fair enough yes wait like if i if i torch my like my m3 max pro viper i'll be saying i need i i know we're wrapping up i need to stop you right there so what about the macbook neo

SPEAKER_21: if you dropped it if you poured a dr pepper on it how would it be fine i don't understand oh i don't i don't care it's cheap oh it's so cheap i understand okay i thought you were saying

SPEAKER_332: it's like it's something about it like a new kind of aluminum that repairs dr pepper no no no no

SPEAKER_06: no my my pink macbook neo does not have special anti-soda properties to it you're just saying you

SPEAKER_14: could afford to buy another one because they're not the most expensive thing in the world i paid like

SPEAKER_10: 600 bucks for it which for a laptop yeah no that's really usually means you're getting some from hp right that's plastic and terrible and has gunk all over the infamous company that there's

SPEAKER_94: that video of turnus on stage introducing the thousand dollar uh computer stand so you're you're here you're uh your new macbook costs less than that stand yes well there is two markets for apple

SPEAKER_06: products there's sane people and insane people and you know what they sell the sell to all types um one quick note here from our producer salat who says that dr pepper tastes like medicine salat you're fired i love that and with that uh twist we'll be back on friday we'll see you guys then lawn and

SPEAKER_09: absolute treats we appreciate everyone tuning into the live show the noti gang we're back on friday noon texas time 1 p.m eastern y'all are lovely see you then bye