SPEAKER_00: hey everybody it's tuesday and we've got a big show for you today there's a long read about the battle of the bobs eiger and chapek at disney and we have a new segment long reads made short

SPEAKER_01: and in this a 24 minute long read will be narrowed down to two minutes by professional broadcast from mollywood it's incredible and then we're going to gossip a little bit about it because

SPEAKER_04: it's just so fun we're also going to cover two record-breaking ftc fines against the same company epic games got dinged over some fortnite behavior collecting uh kids information some children's by privacy violations and these dark patterns we will explain what those are and then it's possible

SPEAKER_06: that a tangent occurs a big j cal tangent coming these dark patterns where you cannot unsubscribe

SPEAKER_00: from the wall street journal equinox or the economist you know this collection of horrible companies uh that make great products but then ruin their reputations by not letting you unsubscribe and they use these dark patterns this is dark user interface the worst human beings on the planet

SPEAKER_01: we are going to read recent complaints about equinox the economist and wall street journal and shame these shameful companies and teach you how to get your revenge on them it is a tangent and it is

SPEAKER_00: a j cal blow up it's got to be top five in the history of the show it's it's epic if you will

SPEAKER_04: nope hey see what i did there and then we go back to the light we have a startup founder interview with stan huysman of climate camp who is doing great things in the world building wonderful things climate camp has developed a greenhouse gas accounting platform to help decarbonize supply chains this is the this is the problem that every business has right now and stan is on it namaste molly thank you

SPEAKER_01: for the palate cleanser it is going to be a great show and i didn't mention it during the opening here but i mentioned the three now four jobs that j cal believes you should never quit that's embedded in

SPEAKER_16: the show somewhere the four jobs you should never quit it's going to be a great show stick with us this

SPEAKER_17: week in startups is brought to you by squarespace turn your idea into a new website go to squarespace.com twist for a free trial when you're ready to launch use offer code twist to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain and blueground is revolutionizing the rental game with its global network of designer furnished apartments that can be seamlessly booked for a month a year or longer get up to ten thousand dollars off your booking with blueground visit promos.theblueground.com twist for more info feel at home free to roam with blueground molly it's tuesday

SPEAKER_20: it's been a busy week there's so much to catch up on oh my gosh so much so much and i love a good long read a long read on the internet for those of you who don't know is like a classic magazine

SPEAKER_00: article in the new yorker or vanity fair or once in a while the new york times magazine section wall

SPEAKER_20: street journal and they tend to take more than 15 minutes to read in other words tldr it's just too long to read yeah so we're starting a new segment here we're experimenting with it which is tldr long reads we'll come up with a better name you can help us workshop it you know how i

SPEAKER_16: am about segments but there was a great dishy long read about our favorite ceo bob eiger yes maybe after

SPEAKER_24: this long read yeah people might think a little less of bob eiger not me not me i love bob eiger

SPEAKER_29: even more after this tell us molly it's a good one okay so what we have done in the interest of this

SPEAKER_11: segment to try to make our like what is it like tldr made short or something it's or long reads made

SPEAKER_04: short how about long reads made short there you go we're making a long read made short so we made a little bullet we made a little bullet list of what happened but so of course we've been talking non-stop about the two bobs at disney we were on this story quite early i think yes um and bob chapek coming in being handpicked by eiger so what we're going to do is uh we worked with the producers to make a series of bullet lists or bullet points about what was in this long read because i love to give and take credit i made sure to note the parts that we had already noted we called it and then some new information about how this all unfolded this is basically the inside story of what happened from

SPEAKER_34: before bob eiger left to him coming back so this is going to take you 15 20 minutes to read i'm going to start a clock now and molly is going to make a long read short in three two go okay here's the

SPEAKER_03: background bob chapek was handpicked by eiger as his successor eiger didn't want to leave and delayed

SPEAKER_04: his departure multiple times and then all of a sudden eiger scampered right out the door right before covet hit chapek took over and immediately stopped including eiger in key decisions there was a rift chapek then started making some questionable decisions that were heavily scrutinized such as jacking up the price of the parks passes that whole scarlett johansson black widow lawsuit a hugely unpopular reorg and then of course getting in a big huge fight with ronda santus and progressive customers over the don't say gay bill okay then all of a sudden on the other hand we have bob eiger he hates being retired he's bored he's lonely he's sad he's out on his 150 foot yacht and his wife wouldn't even come with him it stinks he is about to take a new job as like a big hedge fund advisor but meanwhile inside disney not only is bob chapek annoying all of his customers and the biggest stars in the world he has failed to consider one key employee one christine mccarthy that's right christine mccarthy disney's chief financial officer who is so devoted to disney that she had cancer and she was showing up at work after her chemo treatments she blindsides bob chapek in a board meeting with data and numbers that he claims he hadn't even seen where she had to give the board really bad news about how the company was doing under his leadership he said he didn't see the numbers the wall street journal said they were totally sent out beforehand either he was totally unprepared or christine pictured here totally knifed him and then it's christine who calls bob eiger personally and says please come back and eiger says i would love to and the board boots chapek brings back eiger the story ends with eiger taking his victory lap around the park back at disneyland elbow bumping customers looking quote ecstatic oh chef molly molly i love

SPEAKER_45: the last paragraph here in this an exceptional job by the way taking a long read from 24 minutes or so

SPEAKER_01: of reading to two you save the audience 22 minutes a long read made short and in our first half we're

SPEAKER_47: very very good uh i give you i give you an a i give you a 9.5 no thanks okay it could be a little

SPEAKER_48: bad i'll give you a nine it could be a little better yeah there's always if you do a little

SPEAKER_00: practice on it i think you could even go faster uh and you could you could kind of add a little uh you

SPEAKER_50: know we want people to keep up we want to keep up i think people might have this already there could

SPEAKER_52: be more drama it's true could be more drama here's the last paragraph and i want to just give the flowers now i'll give a little flowers to the writer this is good writing a long read is good writing that's

SPEAKER_01: another aspect of a long read is you got a little more prose in there listen to this end uh on a

SPEAKER_00: saturday afternoon in december mr eiger walked main street in southern cal in southern california's

SPEAKER_06: disneyland flanked by executives his wife and security guards wearing earpieces and so this is good because it takes you to that moment descriptiveness right giving you a little color oh right his wife who didn't come on the boat with him walking down main street we've all seen the main street in disneyland and then the security guards with the air pieces right it really paints a picture that's

SPEAKER_20: what a great long read does is paint a picture i love you passing fans yelled plural multiple fans some stop for selfies and autographs those are very tight sentences right you see the writing style there

SPEAKER_00: is uh short right so they went from a long first sentence with a lot of commas in it what they call a compound sentence and then to short punchy ones now that is uh a gear shift for a writer for those of

SPEAKER_20: you who don't know they gave the long sentence now they give them the short ones mr eiger look ecstatic

SPEAKER_57: leaving associates to wonder if he ever plans to leave

SPEAKER_01: chef's kiss kiss to the writers my god writing is so terrible in the world and content farms

SPEAKER_00: everybody's under complete pressure joe flint robbie wheelen eric schwartzel emily glazer and jessica

SPEAKER_20: toon kill tungle tungle tungle tungle i guess anyway t-o-o-n-k-e-o those are the writers on this i

SPEAKER_52: don't know who wrote the end but that is a classic long read great wrap up that's fine writing at its

SPEAKER_04: best it's a kicker it's a kicker as we say because that thing associates to wonder if he ever plans to leave puts us right back at the top where he undermined chapek from the very beginning by not

SPEAKER_03: really wanting to leave it's beautiful it's beautiful just beautifully done now listen this

SPEAKER_01: leads me to my hot take i have talked about this before many times there are four things you never leave in life it used to be three but today i added a fourth you never leave a winning tv show

SPEAKER_20: you remember david caruso nypd blue remember him yeah you're barely a big movie star only because

SPEAKER_02: i remember him leaving the show that's literally all i remember about him is that he left the show

SPEAKER_20: and then that was it biggest mistake of his life nypd blue is the best show on television everybody knew it and this dummy david caruso sorry david i don't mean to twist the knife he got csi miami eventually or

SPEAKER_00: whatever whatever season's of my baby blue his ego got in the way number two you never leave a winning movie franchise robert downey jr did the right thing he started the franchise they said can you do a cameo here cameo there be in this one be the lead be second he's like i'm here i'll do it forever now spoiler alert

SPEAKER_01: obviously you know he goes away in the last film uh after i don't know was that the 20 or 25th movie he never left that franchise he'll be back anytime they want him yeah they have a multiverse yeah other people have left winning franchises i don't want to be typecast right uh there's many people who were supposed to play superman they were supposed to play batman they didn't want to take on the franchise you never leave a franchise and you never leave a rock band roger waters who wrote i think dark side of the moon wish you were here and the wall i think all three of those were you know obviously the rest of the band participated but i think he left after those and then roger waters i just saw him in concert i had the first row incredible incredible i believe those were the best albums dark side of the moon wish you were here and the wall i think are like one two and three for me of all the and then i guess some people like animals you can have this debate all day long but roger waters left the band and he's got a great he never had a solo career but he does play those songs at his concerts and

SPEAKER_45: if he didn't nobody would go i'm adding to my list a fourth you know i have my lists like uh things i'll

SPEAKER_00: never do a cruise while you can eat buffet or you can eat sushi and buffets like there's a list of things i don't do this is a link list of links list of things you should never do in your career and the last thing in your career is you never leave the ceo job at disney it's the best gig in the world

Chamath Palihapitiya: yeah you go to disneyland yeah you got marvel you got star wars you got pixar you can get your friends into disneyland you can throw a birthday party at disneyland for any of your friends you

SPEAKER_06: can have any one of the marvel superheroes except maybe scarlett johansson who's got to do a little bit

SPEAKER_00: of extra work to get her back in the fold black widow shout out you know what he needs to do he needs

SPEAKER_06: to tell scarlett johansson we're going to have black widow day at the parks and we're going to make a black widow experience ride and we're going to make a black widow tv series and whatever you want

SPEAKER_00: is now on the plate because you got to do what's right for the artists right you got to shake hands you got to love the fans you got to love the job it's the best job in the business worst job right

SPEAKER_09: business ceo of twitter best job in the business ceo of disney exactly if those two things are an

SPEAKER_89: option it's a pretty easy one pick disney the pretty easy one pretty easy things you never quit by jacal

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SPEAKER_11: so there you go that's the inside story of the breakdown with the bobs i think we can all agree that the takeaway here is never underestimate christine well i mean she is literally like

SPEAKER_98: the united all the way through she did you know who she reminds me of you remember secession yes

SPEAKER_101: exactly uh-huh and is she she's the cfo don't you think she had wait a second now i will take credit

SPEAKER_104: for zooming in i zoomed in on christine here yeah is that jerry that's jerry she's jerry

SPEAKER_96: jpeg messed with jerry you don't mess with the jerry you don't mess with jerry with a g by the way if somebody spells jerry with the g and an i you don't mess with him no can we get a side by side

SPEAKER_16: and christine we can do this this is the same person they're both cfos they both

SPEAKER_00: i would work through chemo uh they're both dedicated to their boss even when their boss retires

SPEAKER_110: yep and they both will knife you hard core these are hard core cfo ladies never

SPEAKER_04: christine that was that that was to me the only actual new information like we had talked about or speculated about every other part of that the new information in there was that jpeg missed one opportunity to make a friend and it cost him his hit i'm in love with christine i'm gonna pattern my entire life after christine i need to know everything about her look at this you can zoom out too i zoomed in on christine because i wanted to really get her killer eyes

SPEAKER_00: it's in the eyes listen it is it's in the eyes also by the way great hair great hair if you want to be a cfo like this there we go you need to have you got to get your hair blown out dude how did we

SPEAKER_43: not realize power suit and you got to have eyes that are samurai sword eyes yeah these are samurai

SPEAKER_16: these are laser eyes like these women will cut you and pursed lips red lipstick red lipstick and

SPEAKER_00: pursuits and you know what they don't they don't have to say a lot they just when they do say something it's gonna sting i mean you can just tell they're both looking at somebody explain they're both looking at men explaining some exactly they're like i can i know this look i've gotten this

David Friedberg: look as a ceo but they just look at you and they're like really i literally i'm not going to say

SPEAKER_00: anything i'm just going to look at you i told you 10 times already bob chapek let everybody have their budgets this is the look that says i will clean this up again i will clean it up no i i guarantee you what happened was chapek came this is what i'm going to just do it here chapek came and said oh you know what we'll do uh we want a cost cut so nobody has a budget all the budgets go from one place we got one p l and she's like okay i understand where you're coming from this conversation i had it with

SPEAKER_01: eisner i had it with eiger i've had seven other people do it here's where we came to the nine times we have this conversation with the board i've been here through three regimes uh changes it it's a reasonable thing mr chapek but you know the people who we hire if you want to have exceptional talent they need to feel some autonomy and so this is going to make people feel like you're the god king and they won't have autonomy i really in the strongest terms i don't advise it it'll blow back on you we've tried it um and if there's any additional resources i can get or people you need to talk to to not make this great decision um you know let me see if i can help and you know what bob jabic said i'm in charge i'm in charge for your feedback go execute it and he and he diminished her in that moment that's my belief of what happened yep and then she went oh okay bob whatever you say

SPEAKER_47: and then you know what she said beep beep boop mm-hmm mr please jerry call me bob we've been working

SPEAKER_01: together for 20 years just call me bob mr eiger i'm not comfortable calling you bob um how's your retirement oh you're alone on your boat um how about you bring the boat back to dock and you come home

SPEAKER_47: this is never going to work with mr change all due respect would you cut would you consider coming back

SPEAKER_45: do i have your support i'm calling you because you have my support you know you always have my support

SPEAKER_09: mr eiger that's that's how jerry gets you yeah that's how you get jerry'd yep that's how you get

SPEAKER_11: jerry'd you don't you do not play that one right you you overlook jerry at your own peril you got jerry'd

SPEAKER_04: i'm about to start i'm about to become christine stalker i'm going to stalk her entire career and just find every move that she ever did and just mimic the whole thing she's incredible don't make me

SPEAKER_133: treasure jerry and christine next to each other in a side by side i need you to push her you don't do

SPEAKER_135: and i need you to give me the no see you're smiling you don't have it yet you're not you're not you're

SPEAKER_138: not you have to be a little more i'm too cynical i'm too young you're not bitter and cynical enough

SPEAKER_09: yet i'm really not i'm sorry i'll travel years of you know diminished by the patriarchy and you'll get

SPEAKER_04: exactly exactly so close creeping up creeping up all right uh in other news we had a couple of record-breaking ftc fines tell me more in the tech industry and they were levied on the same company same company got two record-breaking fines from the federal trade commission and it is fortnite maker epic games which has really yeah uh-huh they'll like the one guys i know turns out not so much they uh got a record-breaking fine for invading children's privacy and then another record-breaking fine for tricking players of all ages into making unintended purchases the two fines together add up to 520 million dollars well that's quite a speeding ticket usually speeding tickets are a little bit

SPEAKER_118: less that that's real cash half a billion is for real that's for real yeah it's uh the 200 with the

SPEAKER_04: the children's privacy fine is based on copa the children's online privacy protection act that is 275 million dollars and then the second fine is 245 million for these illegal dark patterns which are uh things like deceptive sign up tactics like saying oh you'll get a super cheap deal in the first month and then jacking up the price or encouraging you to keep subscribing or making it really hard to unsubscribe in the case of actually fortnite they said that they used these tactics where they actually even sort of threatened people who were trying to cancel like oh you'll lose your access to the game forever oh yeah they obscured cancel and refund features to make them more difficult to find and then according to the ftc uh when epic agreed to unlock an account so they would if customers disputed these unauthorized charges with their credit card companies allegedly epic would lock their accounts and then even if they agreed to unlock the accounts then they would say you'll be banned for life if you dispute any future charges and then she said this led to hundreds of millions of dollars in unauthorized charges for consumers and then in terms of the the copa violations i think that was about

SPEAKER_52: collecting personal information from this is the neologism is that the fancy word neologism like a new

SPEAKER_00: word that was created neologism neologism i don't know the pronunciation you know um this concept of deceptive design dark patterns as they are called uh in the industry um is a neologism so this has existed um in u ux for a long time it's deceptive design some people call it some people call it a dark pattern a dark design um dark pattern is the term now it is a deceptive design pattern it is got the goal of uh confusing the user right and to make mistakes when they click on things we've all experienced this uh if you've gone for a gym membership or you've subscribed to the wall street journal specifically you've been in these dark patterns uh if you've used one of mark zuckerberg's pattern i was trying to turn off notifications in uh instagram uh because of that new feature we talked about yesterday the notes and it allows you to turn all notifications on at once but you have to manually turn them off if you want to like granularly turn them off those are designed dark patterns they're they're things that are designed to either bait and switch you um or to misdirect you um uh or to change you in some way right this direction the rich motel is part of this where like to keep you inside of a particular product

SPEAKER_06: and i just want to point out you know um the cognitive dissonance for the journalism industry

SPEAKER_00: i i was like when i heard y'all uh talking about this i was like wait a second put it aside kids which you made that point in our private chat unsubscribing should be as easy as subscribing and i did a search for wall street journal unsubscribe on twitter i'm the number one

SPEAKER_06: two and three results so go on your twitter right now uh and just type in like wall street journal unsubscriber answers world journal oh that's hilarious wall street journal story that we were

SPEAKER_00: talking about and it is the worst unsubscribe in the in the world and they make you call on the phone to unsubscribe and you can subscribe when you're uh you when you're online and they and they do deceptive ones like the one dollar introductory price and then it pops up to another price so literally journalism media is the worst offender in all of this and it's really like i think as journalists hate this because it makes journalists look really stupid when they have to admonish people for doing deceptive stuff and their publishers who they report their editors report into are doing the most deceptive stuff in the world on the other side i asked the woman on the phone this is like i'm trying to unsubscribe from wall street journal they make a call on the phone i said can i ask you a question i subscribed online why can't i unsubscribe and she's like oh that's for security reasons i said may i ask you another question i understand you're just the operator

SPEAKER_01: but taking my money is where like their damage could be done in terms of fraud if you're taking my money

SPEAKER_00: that would be like concerning to me i'm asking you to not take my money and you're saying you're not doing for security shouldn't you do it the other way she's like it's a fair point i was like

SPEAKER_06: don't worry i'm not recording this um but let's pull up the first paragraph here this first paragraph of the wall street journal story is the most epic subtweet as you pointed out in our private chat

SPEAKER_67: i would like you to give a dramatic reading of this journalist can i get the journalist name here i scroll up a little bit this is a journalist katie dayton dayton sorry katie dayton yes i can see it

SPEAKER_03: there uh from december 1st uh 2021 uh yes on dark patterns on dark patterns and i quote signing up

SPEAKER_04: for a membership has always been easier than canceling it while subscribing to an app newspaper gym or other service may now be as simple as pressing a button on a smartphone many companies still push customers to dial a number and speak to an agent to cancel this was written in the wall street journal the worst offender of said practice ever and i love that katie included the word newspaper like i want to hear the conversation between her and the editor who were like we have to put this in here yeah we have to because otherwise this guy jason calicanis is going to be a lot over us like white on rice talking

SPEAKER_00: about how we do this and she put newspaper between app and gym she's referring to the other worst company in the world equinox i would like to take another moment to tell equinox how horrible they are um there is an overpriced fitness or is it where they abuse their customers massively i can say this without them being able to sue me because i was on the other side of this abuse pattern where i signed up with my wife and they make you come in to cancel they then talk to you about your health and fitness goals you can't just sign up for equinox you have to go in and take a tour you have to sit there with a high pressure sales person type in equinox a customer support subscribing cancelling gym memberships they the person lied to me when i was talking to like yeah you can you can you can cancel anytime it's easy breezy don't worry about you can also pause if you move if you get injured it's no problem then you try to unsubscribe equinox is the worst company in the world tied with wall

SPEAKER_01: street journal for how they treat their customers now when you go in and you use the scented towels and the bathroom is perfectly clean it's a nice experience but when you try to cancel that's when

SPEAKER_00: you know the true character of a company and equinox and wall street journal the business leaders there with these dark paradigms are the worst executives in the world horrible human beings horrible executives anybody who builds this kind of stuff is an incredibly evil human i hate you all i hope that you uh lose your jobs i hate hate from the bottom of my heart equinox and wall street journal

SPEAKER_01: executives who create these things i wish nothing but bad luck and i put a dark spell upon your dark patterns

SPEAKER_40: may lena khan come for you all

SPEAKER_04: the only read this i toured the further location in september 2022 and signed up for a one-week free trial the sales associate bleep informed me that i could cancel after that week without locking into their 12-month commitment following the one-week trial i verbally told bleep that i no longer wish to sign up for equinox and to please cancel my membership i believed my experience was over by then however i learned that equinox decided to ignore my cancellation request and instead charged me for three months which exceeds six hundred dollars when i confronted equinox staff about the issue they made it seem like it was my fault for failing to vigorously cancel my membership when a simple statement should have satisfied afterwards they have ignored my attempts to reach them regularly

SPEAKER_89: leaving the office for the day after they said they would call me back this is a shameful way to run a business let's read the business response that was on better business review yeah two weeks ago by the

SPEAKER_06: the way we are considering using equinox listen to j cal listen to j cal equinox is an evil company run

SPEAKER_20: by evil people do not subscribe do not fall for it listen my dream when i was younger was to be a digital nomad but back in those days you had to be in an office you had to be in an office on time there was no remote work well now with blue ground that is solved right remote workers have an opportunity to live the digital nomad lifestyle and if you are leading that digital nomad lifestyle where you work

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SPEAKER_20: slash twist it's in the show notes you got to use this link promos dot the blue ground dot com slash twist that's promos dot the blue ground dot com slash twist for up to one thousand dollars off

SPEAKER_04: i'm looking at my freaking amazon subscriptions because the other one that drives me crazy is amazon like everything i've ever subscribed to via amazon because they make it so easy i find out you're like a year later i'm like why am i still paying for this stupid thing like i could swear to you that i canceled kindle unlimited and now i'm on my amazon subscription page and they're

SPEAKER_180: like no no you're still it's gonna renew on december 28th i'm like what no i'm not paying for that

SPEAKER_00: anymore if you do cancel with them and you write them an email i guarantee you they take care of it right quick the apps used to have the cancel problem because it was hard to find in the interface apple fix that because apple is a customer-centric company if you go into settings they fix it goes

SPEAKER_82: california made a law and that's also because california made the law california got wind of

SPEAKER_06: this and when i was on the phone with the wall street journal purse uh trying to unsubscribe this time i said to the woman i said i know the california law and i'm going to click record since

SPEAKER_00: you're recording and i want this unsubscribe right now and i'm going to publish to my twitter feed with 500 000 people uh this audio uh this is like another phone call i have with them i said and i know the california protection law means that you need to do this right quick and i'm going to get a huge reward if you don't and she's like your pro your unsubscribe has been processed so you have to

SPEAKER_01: literally tell them you understand the law and you have to be in a confrontation with people like equinox and wall street journal this is why people subscribe to the wall street journal through the iphone you know you can subscribe through and so economist also falls into this bucket shame on the economist economist is a nightmare wall street journal and shame on equinox i think these are the three

SPEAKER_11: worst offenders i mean shame to be fair epic did get a half billion dollar fine so or 275 million so maybe they're up there i'm just saying they might be up there i'll pick up there now too sure if you

SPEAKER_82: could please everybody if you could please tell anybody who will listen to you to never join equinox

SPEAKER_01: this is my revenge for all time because they did this to me this is my revenge uh consumer revenge files do a search for equinox if you have a bad equinox story please tweet it facebook at linkedin it and please write a review online you must do your duty it's your civic duty to make equinox pay for what they did to me over 10 years ago thank you this is the end of the message jace vindictive jason i'm so

SPEAKER_00: vindictive i hate these people they waste so much of my freaking time it's the time thing it really is

SPEAKER_06: the time thing it's not a money thing it's a time thing and i will say you cancel your credit cards

SPEAKER_00: every year did i mention that on yes or just yesterday show yeah have a 22 card with you know one you know uh miles program bonvoy the next year have one with united cancel it every year here is

SPEAKER_16: my new make sure this is my new credit card why because i just canceled my last year's card i'm opening it up on the air i'm opening up my new card here it is you think i'm joking i'm not joking

SPEAKER_11: there's a new card i believe you it's awesome i don't play these games anymore because of equinox well i was one of the parents who got like a 250 port night charge so yes

SPEAKER_01: i'm familiar my new united business card i love you united you're always giving me upgrades i love united i get my points i cancel my card all of you trying to play games with me equinox wall street

SPEAKER_199: your own economies ha ha ha ha try now i love where this started and how none of it is related to this

SPEAKER_04: enough sugar miss sugar all right we uh have i think that's enough news for today actually we have

SPEAKER_181: a cool interview startup interview coming up can we read one more review of equinox please can i get one

SPEAKER_157: more there was it you had one of but you had an economist one can you read an economist yeah i want

SPEAKER_163: to read the economist economist because i have just give me one or two more moments of joy

SPEAKER_04: it's its own thing i think yeah the economist is a nightmare i spent two years trying to try to cancel the economist and it is so expensive economist so expensive and you would have to call them now they actually have a chat like here's this so there was a tweet that we found from from

SPEAKER_02: november 29th 2022 and i would have been thrilled to have a chat wait a second this is last month the

SPEAKER_207: economist this is last month and the equinox one was less than five or ten years ago no two weeks ago

SPEAKER_209: okay they're still doing it point out this is still happening equinox economist shame shame shame give

SPEAKER_112: me the please molly the economist has improved it actually will force you into a live chat now instead

SPEAKER_04: of a phone call you just have to call them okay so the tweet says i know this is a first world problem but i gotta say unsubscribing from the economist was such a bizarre experience like who does this in the 21st century after we are sorry to see you go and let us know what we can do better pages they want me to go to a live chat and then you can you have to either chat with them or call now i'm here to tell you that that's an actual improvement because the two years i spent trying to remember because i would like try and then it would be like you have to call and you have to call and it would be like

SPEAKER_100: london hours or only east coast hours like eight to five east coast and i'm like oh okay that's part

SPEAKER_157: of the dark pattern or wait times right and so then now they have a chat and then the other dark

SPEAKER_06: pattern is to explain to you why you shouldn't i hate these people oh i don't think it's better

SPEAKER_20: oh let me see pull it up let's go i want please we are going this is a new cause celeb we're all in

SPEAKER_04: i think i'm using that don't waste my freaking unobtainium i should get to charge companies who waste my time like this i should get to send them a bill okay this is going to become a reoccurring

SPEAKER_00: theme i just want to keep reading these because there's it's so much pleasure for me because i have power now because i'm an influential podcaster this the pleasure i get from reading complaints about equinox and you get from economist and i get from wall street journal let's just do this on

SPEAKER_03: a regular basis let's shame these three shameful companies go ahead molly all right then can we

SPEAKER_04: do health i want to do the whole entire health industry which owes me thousands of dollars and wasted let's go we're going to call it you owe me all right initial complaint 4 13 2022 about the economist i have been trying to cancel my online subscription to the economist since january 2022 i see you friend i only intended to have one month of the subscription and i've tried to cancel multiple times in every month since the initial subscription month however the economist will not allow me to cancel their website directs you through a maze of buttons where you are then bombarded with upsells and finally told to contact the economist to cancel the subscription their website advertises that cancellation is possible using the quote 24 7 available live chat the first issue is that the live chat is not available 24 7 the next problem is that the actual experience and process of canceling if you are lucky enough to connect to live chat i have gone through this process and tried to cancel approximately a dozen times since january 2022 to no avail reminder that this was written in april under the guise of processing your cancellation the live chat attendant tries to upsell then i've been purposely disconnected by the economist live chat employee every time i have tried to cancel the live chat attendant will ask for information then after 30 seconds while i'm ready the response to the live chat attendant asks are we still connected following by me being disconnected from the live chat and

SPEAKER_220: unable to cancel my order i am completely flabbergasted yeah this is insane this is insane okay this is insane

SPEAKER_20: i just here's the good news i want everybody to have this url ready to go we can fix this ourselves okay there is a very simple url and this is a live free ad read ftc.gov complaint ftc.gov complaint and i think there's a california one as well we are going to put in the show notes and every time we talk about this issue we're not just going to talk about this in the abstract we're going to tell you how to take

SPEAKER_01: action yes i want you to go to ftc.gov complaint if this has ever happened to you is happening to you and then there's a california one as well look in california protection act or california better business whatever complaints let's all work on this together and then um then i want you also to use the hashtag equinox sucks pound economist sucks and pound wall street general sucks on your twitter handle until such time as this stops so feel free to bond with each other with that the hashtag sucks

SPEAKER_20: this is been a message from jason and molly we have had enough of nonsense and i think right now the this week in startups account has just tweeted uh equinox sucks at jason at mollywood

SPEAKER_52: i hate you equinox we're just gonna be like what happened on that show you're still doing it years later uh and anybody doing this kind of stuff get your head examined the end okay and there's many

SPEAKER_06: other companies everybody do a better job somebody doesn't want your service take that as a learning the only thing that should happen when you click the unsubscribe button is you have been unsubscribed

SPEAKER_00: if you made a mistake click here and we would appreciate feedback of why you unsubscribe so we

SPEAKER_01: can make a better product you don't use it whatever and then a little box that says any other feedback

SPEAKER_60: that's it enough of the dark what are these things called dark design patterns no more dark patterns enough with the dark patterns everyone's just trying to scam us all the time we're just trying to

SPEAKER_00: live this is just trying to live bait and switch misdirection roach motel stuff zuckerberg stuff you know we sit here and complain about zuckerberg and the complaints are valid but wall street journal and

SPEAKER_01: economist yeah like come on and if you're a journalist and you work for these things like have some if you work at the wall street journal if you work at the economist and this is happening and you're complaining about everything else on the web and i you know i don't want to have you lose your job

Jason Calacanis: but you should just say this is lame i don't even i wonder if they even know anyway all right i like this new segment i think we should adapt you know that movie bob roberts there's that funny like a

SPEAKER_04: little folk song that they do uh it's like tim robinson and he's a candidate bob roberts and then

SPEAKER_40: there's there's just an amazing little folk song where it's like and they complain and complain and complain and complain and complain and complain and complain and it's amazing and i think that we should

SPEAKER_04: borrow it for this segment as it goes on absolutely um back to the positive you know we've been talking to people who are actually building cool things building the future and so we have another fantastic startup interview with stan he is a man i love this guy he's dutch and he is in brussels and he has got a startup called climate camp where they are doing scope three like supply chains emissions tracking starting specifically with breweries and they have signed up they've existed for like one minute and they've signed up 15 of all the breweries in brussels to really figure out where all the carbon emissions are coming from in the entire supply chain love and they hope to expand out and he's just like so methodical so thoughtful it's a great interview you know what's great about that interview

SPEAKER_06: you're taking a smart person you're using their cognitive ability and their skills to make the world

SPEAKER_20: better as opposed to equinox which is making the world worse they're literally smart people at equinox

SPEAKER_00: using their powers to do dark pattern stuff if you're one of those people doing dark patterns listen

SPEAKER_20: to this interview and then think about what a horrible choice you've made in your life to work on dark patterns as opposed to going to the light you are sith lords and sith lords lose eventually thank you for uh doing this interview molly i really appreciate you it's great now on to the light

SPEAKER_236: same guys in the light stan his amunds is co-founder and chief executive officer of climate camp how

SPEAKER_240: did i do yeah hi everybody hi uh good evening thanks good morning for you actually uh let's see

Jason Calacanis: mid-afternoon although i've sort of lost track of time here yeah stan where are you located

SPEAKER_29: uh belgium basically so are you happy about france advancing or do you have that belgium frame and you

SPEAKER_246: are not french clearly but so so still belgium excited yeah so still disappointed belgium didn't

SPEAKER_250: make true um uh we were actually sporting uh morocco right now um so as kind of an outsider i think

SPEAKER_251: everybody wants to have the outsider going ahead but i had that feeling also i had that feeling also

SPEAKER_236: um all right well let's talk about work for a minute uh you are as i mentioned the co-founder and chief executive officer of climate camp tell me what climate camp does so we provide insights

SPEAKER_250: in supply chain emissions of companies by collaborating actually with the suppliers together so that you can act together with your suppliers collaborating to reduce the emissions in your whole supply chain and we do that by bringing an ease of view solution which is integrated with your suppliers and which also drives based upon actual data not benchmarks but to really get the real insights

SPEAKER_236: from your suppliers so give me an example of who the customer would be and what kind of suppliers

SPEAKER_250: they're trying to track yeah so currently as a startup you need to pick your battles right so we currently go to market in food and beverages and the customer here is really that organization that says look i want to get my carbon accounting in order which means i need to have a good view on my own emissions but also my emissions in my supply chain and once that customer becomes to a certain level of maturity where they say look i want to go beyond my own emissions i want to look at my total impact on my value chain that's when we start talking to them and so our customers really are those that want to track that emissions in the supply chain and the supplier so to speak are our collaborators

SPEAKER_236: active collaborators in the climate camp ecosystem and so this is tracking what we sometimes call scope three emissions it's the ones that are not you know it's not a result of the thing that you're actually making where you're making it it's all of the kind of the halo correct right yeah and this is

SPEAKER_244: yeah really hard to track from what i hear so um what are the tools you've created to make this possible

SPEAKER_250: yeah the metaphor i think i want to use is it's a bit like vat so if you share vat which is 100 euros euros or dollars on your invoice you put in on top 19 dollars or 21 dollars of vat and you pass it to your customers you can look at it value added tax exactly exactly exactly exactly in every transaction that you do with your suppliers and your customer there is this vat everybody knows this it's very common sense now in every transaction that in the future we will do with our partners either with our suppliers or with our customers we will also share the carbon tax so to speak so it's important that we trade transparency so that's that's a bit the high level purpose and how do we do that is we are building a carbon graph which is basically an infrastructure layer to connect the dots with your supplier upstream but also with your customers downstream so that they can easily share the data

SPEAKER_263: across using uh this connected layer so to speak and then okay there's a lot in there that i want to

SPEAKER_236: break down where what goes into the climate graph and what do what do each part of the supply chain contribute like are people volunteering this data about their business operations yeah yeah so let me

SPEAKER_250: give one concrete example we are working with quite a local brewery strong brand in belgium trappiston

SPEAKER_263: westmala and they have around 30 40 suppliers they with whom they want to engage on their scope 3 data

SPEAKER_250: okay and what what happens is first of all there is a request sent obviously for the supplier to participate in in the in the platform and they have three options and we see depending on the maturity of of the supplier either they have their ducks in a row and they already know their carbon footprint and that way they can create an account share login share their data their carbon emissions through the platform we see also that certain suppliers don't have any clue and they can use our platform to just have an eye level calculation or perhaps they want to have a more in-depth calculation and then we refer to partners microsoft sap as well lots of emerging startups have great carbon accounting platforms that's not the area where we compete so the supplier can still choose their own or use climate camp and then we see suppliers that have already very mature they don't not only have calculated it but they also have for instance implemented already their own platform or using one of the big techs and we integrate with that so some of the suppliers of our customers use already carbon accounting platforms we're creating apis to make sure that the necessary data gets gets transferred and then once

SPEAKER_236: you've gathered that data on behalf of your original customer the person who's trying to track their

SPEAKER_244: supply chain that's where this kind of vat concept comes in you will essentially assign a score

SPEAKER_250: the metaphor that we use from a vat perspective is that every supplier will need to share their carbon

SPEAKER_263: amount for the product that has been bought by the customers true truth and that's kind of the concept

SPEAKER_250: so let me give a very concrete example as in food and beverages you need to often buy raw materials right

SPEAKER_263: your ingredients and for our customer in beer malt is a important ingredient so the request goes out to the supplier that provides the malt in this case it might be they've already calculated they enter the necessary data at the level of the organization and for instance total emissions of that organization that is shared with the customer now obviously you need to still do some calculations to make sure that it's at product level because you as a customer as a brewery you're not responsible for the full emissions of your supplier only for that fraction for which you buy the product and obviously that's where also our logic comes in need to allocate it at a necessary level and very happy to be located in the eu because the eu is also forcing some standards in the european union to make sure that we have the necessary for instance uh rules on what needs to be included in exchanging that data right it's like

SPEAKER_236: in the us if you use your like if i use this room for example for my office i can write some of that off on my taxes but i have to calculate it based on a specific square foot i can't just say i use all of this right so it's so first you do the tracking and then you say this is the portion that is exactly applicable to this beer pro beer maker yeah and that you has has like spreadsheets for that like they

SPEAKER_241: have made it easy to calculate that you mean the allocation person the allocation yeah yeah so

SPEAKER_285: cool we need that well the easy the the first and easy way is it's obviously a certain unit right

SPEAKER_263: you buy 50 tons of raw materials you buy 30 000 glasses uh from your supplier and then on the unit for instance how much co2 in kilograms per unit that i bought that's the information that i'm really looking for so if it's about one ton of malt again making it concrete one ton of malt average it's around 900 kilo kilograms of co2 to produce one ton of malt now it might be that you ask this to your supplier

SPEAKER_250: and the supplier already invested in hydrogen installations to make sure that their process is more efficient which means that he can share for one ton of malt i can do it for 650 kilograms which means i get that data from that supplier and the handshake that you make is really at the unit

SPEAKER_263: level which might be one ton one unit uh baht etc right and what are the regulations in the eu that

SPEAKER_236: make this possible is it scope 3 reporting regulation requirements specifically yeah so there

SPEAKER_250: is a couple of drivers what we see for sure there is the eu regulation on uh there is this famous regulation csrd corporate sustainability reporting directive which indeed requires it's just being passed now through the european parliament requires as well to report on scope 3 but that's not the only driver i think another driver is for instance science-based targets initiative

SPEAKER_263: at a united nations level together with w worldwide fund as well w do f there is an incentive as well to

SPEAKER_250: set targets and if you want to reduce your emissions and want to be aligned to the science-based targets initiative you need to also look at your scope tree so that's definitely a second driver that we see i think there is another driver which is transparency for consumers there is consumer law also coming where every product in the shelf needs to be traceable you need to have the footprint of the products which is put in the shelf so i think the european green deal has put so much in motion and we are very happy uh that there is kind of a level playing field here yeah where we connect yeah

SPEAKER_236: it's well it's so interesting too because there is the vat concept you know that metaphor is so powerful because so many consumers genuinely don't know the what i have been calling the true cost you know exactly the true and and i think there's some opportunity to build pricing almost like you could have a website that just puts all these products together and says this is what they actually cost but you can't do that without this initial measurement no no and i think

SPEAKER_250: obviously consumers consumers decisions are based upon cost true pricing is a strong let's say leverage that we have to drive consumer decision making and what legislation has been seeing as a main driver is that it's not only i need to reduce my own emissions but it's this kind of cascading effect me asking my suppliers to drive their emissions down as well creates cascade effect down totally upstream which is an effect we need because in 2030 we need to reduce our emissions already by 55 60 percent which

SPEAKER_263: means it needs to go fast and if we continue to report every year like a good house father this is our mine emissions we're not going to get there that's not going to work so we need to have this kind of

SPEAKER_236: acceleration effects and scope 3 allows to do that could this business exist without these regulations it sounds like you're describing some accounting practices that maybe wouldn't be possible like i'm you know i'm thinking about could this happen in the u.s right now where we don't have so the same

SPEAKER_250: there is in the u.s lots is moving as well there is for instance i'm actually wondering ifrs standards are still international financial accounting standards and they have sustainability board as well which is reinforcing scope 3 so it's coming to the us as well however it's not only a regulation that's driving force right so we see also from a consumer perspective the ask the demand for more transparency and this is cascaded cascaded true as well towards the companies and we see that for instance science-based targets is a global initiative not not only european union right which also look at

SPEAKER_263: fortune 500 and you can clearly do an analysis if it starts in fortune 500 companies it triples down

SPEAKER_285: right so they do their they need to do it for their shareholders so it's not only regulation it's also consumer demand it's shareholders so i still stay positive so towards that extent uh i must yeah

SPEAKER_236: yep we all must well on that note what made you want to do this what is your background and how did it

SPEAKER_302: lead you here so i've been working in consulting in the last 10 plus years and working for

SPEAKER_250: fortune 500 companies amongst those as well and one of my last assignments was on global insurers that

SPEAKER_263: needed to calculate their global carbon emissions from japan to europe to asia pacific and to brazil and everything in between now they wanted to know as well their own scope 3 emissions as a good house father they are they were listed on stock exchange so they were obliged to get more transparency in that and they started to ask hundreds of suppliers with excel sheets hey what's your footprint what's your footprint totally not scalable and that's where also me having a background more in data and analytics

SPEAKER_305: seeing hey we can do this much much much better yeah how does the the product part work who pays you

SPEAKER_236: in this process it sounds like the initial supplier does so it's the initial customers i'm sorry the

SPEAKER_250: customer yeah yeah exactly so the initial customer that has that wants to have transparency in his in a supply chain we do as a as a supplier you can collaborate for free right so collaborating with your

SPEAKER_263: customer that's demanding the data should i think always be for free however when that supplier doesn't have any insights on his own and he still needs to ask his own suppliers for his own input that's when we also upgrade him to kind of a bait steer and for the rest it's a bait steer according to how many suppliers you can award and there is some limitations as well and then obviously if you go beyond a couple of thresholds you'll fall in uh in uh high pricing tiers i see but so there is a so

SPEAKER_236: it's a freemium model there's a free tier where like and it would it's free initially for the brewery and there's some point at which depending on how much they need to know they would have to pay so

SPEAKER_250: what we do is so young startup we are obviously always experimenting with some of the pricing models

SPEAKER_263: that that really resonates today how we go to market is you can create a free account however we want to position that as a kind of free trial for the kind of breweries or other food and beverage companies so we believe there is value for that service and we believe that it's okay to charge for that service because you will be able to get insights from the suppliers from a supplier perspective however that's where we really believe in a free a free model first to collaborate and then upgrade to more uh bait steer in the second step i'm sorry i'm not following who this is my fault no no it's it's it's

SPEAKER_316: so who pays who has to pay always it's the customer the customer it's so the brewery in this case

SPEAKER_236: exactly exactly and then the suppliers can pay depending on exactly how much data they need to process basically yeah got it yeah okay i got it or whether they need to as well go to their own

SPEAKER_263: supply chain because they don't have it yet right so then it starts over again because for for us suppliers are also hot leads so to speak because if they don't get their own ducks in a row for us they become for us also a business opportunity right because you can sort of help them to create this

SPEAKER_236: larger tracking right okay so the more suppliers you onboard the more customers you have really uh exactly amazing brilliant and what made you start i mean food and beverage is obviously a really big industry with a really big emissions and supply chain yeah component but i wonder what

SPEAKER_250: made you start there yeah well as every startup you're running around you're testing you're pivoting you're learning and we actually started in financial services and manufacturing so to other industries and we saw that for us to get into a specific market we

SPEAKER_263: we really believe we needed to focus because we had a couple of industries where we experimented with we really needed to pick our battle and for instance being in belgium obviously you need to start somewhere and we believe food and beverage and in particular the

SPEAKER_250: brewing industry they are very proud of their products so it's not only regulation driven

SPEAKER_263: these founders as well even companies between 10 million revenue or 200 million revenue also these

SPEAKER_250: founders they they're they're they're executives they're proud of their product that they produce and they want to have bring a good product to their to their customers so that's for us an additional

SPEAKER_263: reason and that's why we got so much traction uh in uh in the beginning in the in the brewing sector

SPEAKER_236: yeah yeah did i read this correctly that you've you've got 15 of the breweries in belgium as customers

SPEAKER_250: so 15 of the volume produced in belgium of the beer production produced in belgium flows through our

SPEAKER_332: platform flows through our platform so it's a data obviously so sorry that was a cheesy but okay i love a pun

SPEAKER_236: i love a pun yeah how did you how did you do that like did you have connections in the brewing industry

SPEAKER_250: before so we actually launched a campaign which we it's called in dutch they say do some braw which

SPEAKER_263: translates uh sustainable brewing and we reached out i think it was half a year ago so through this campaign hey we can help you as a brewery to make your your sustainable we can come by and kind of corilia tactic could come by and make a vlog about their brewery how much they already do for the environment and afterwards we presented our project which means we didn't do cold calls in the beginning we really said hey we have a campaign we want to help the brewing industry in belgium first to become carbon neutral let's see what you already do and afterwards we presented our project that's

SPEAKER_250: how we called it our project which means it's a fair way to do your initial customers because it doesn't come across as too salesy per se because you give them a nice vlog as well afterwards that they can share with their customers and it's a motivation for them to do more

SPEAKER_263: so that that was our first set of initial customers but then we got traction with some of the top 10 breweries in in belgium some of the larger ones and what's really helping is this kind of

SPEAKER_250: network effect because once we have now the first suppliers on board

SPEAKER_263: entering as a new brewery will provide enormous benefits because your scope tree is basically there behind the button we just need to unlock it because we already have the data from the from

Jason Calacanis: most of your suppliers already in the platform amazing and then um tell me your seed stage

SPEAKER_236: that's the name of our little mini series here how uh how has how much money have you raised so

SPEAKER_250: far house fundraising been so we closed our first we called our pre-seed round 700k uh euro two months ago so very happy about that we did learn a lot from our investors because while talking to investors you need to say what's your focus and what's your differentiation towards the competition obviously we are acting in this kind of emerging field of carbon accounting and there is lots of players

SPEAKER_263: also those get uh series a series b kind of funding so hey climate camp what do you do different what's your differentiator yeah and we initially started as a kind of yet another carbon accounting tool but we really quickly pivoted towards the scope tree which everybody believes is a too difficult problem to to address so lots of people are running away because of the complexity behind but that's reconfirmed reconfirmed as well for us the way to let's double down uh on this so thanks to the feedback from the

SPEAKER_236: investors yeah congratulations on everything you've built so far and i would imagine you're having a really fun time visiting breweries and having beer for work well yes and we can use this well as some fun

SPEAKER_250: examples as well as a kind of a asset during our uh presentations obviously it doesn't stop with breweries right that's not the message necessary you want to give i think you need to pick your battles start somewhere build this atomic network i think there's a great book by one of the ex-founders from ex people working at uber basically saying how to build a network effect you need to build this first atomic network in one city it works kind of well then you deploy to the next one for us it's the

SPEAKER_263: same we want to build a strong network of local breweries and their suppliers and then you can move to adjacent markets so you really want to have that value set in that specific network up and running

SPEAKER_236: yeah amazing stan hiazaman co-founder and chief executive officer of climate camp thank you so much for the time today this is so interesting and cool love hearing about it yeah thank you thanks

SPEAKER_04: all right thanks for tuning in everyone i know that was an epic show and the week is not over more

SPEAKER_02: yet to come more epic shows yes tomorrow i'm joined by my guy scott oran he runs a company called cruise

SPEAKER_20: consulting and um you know one of the things we run into you and i molly with our startups is they make mistakes in the accounting and the finance side of the business and a lot of times these mistakes can be avoided so we started the startup basic series and i found partners one of our legal partners wilson

SPEAKER_00: censini for accounting crews like these are the best of the best of the service providers like you know top and um every year i try to do five or ten episodes just so that i have a link to give to

SPEAKER_01: founders and so we do this startup basic series this week in startups.com basics and on tomorrow's show we will talk about what to do with your idle cash you know sometimes these companies are lucky enough to raise 10 or 100 million what do you do with that cash do you buy equities do you put it in the s p do you put it in bonds do you put it in a interest-bearing account what's the right thing to do with your

SPEAKER_45: treasury and so it's a great conversation very important you know and uh i hope you enjoy it and we do them like uh like i said i do uh legal uh and we do uh accounting and i'm open to doing other startup basic series uh so check it out i think everybody's gonna love it if you haven't taken a

SPEAKER_01: moment to subscribe to molly's amazing new sub stack mollywood.substack.com or calacanis.substack.com and you will get an upsell on a couple of other lists we have one for the launch fund we you know if

SPEAKER_45: you're interested in hearing what we're doing in terms of events for founders i found a university one for the podcast and for the 12 week course and i think we have one for this week in startups so just

SPEAKER_01: subscribe to both of them and there's a chat feature and if you download the sub stack app there's chat and molly and i are chatting with like i don't know dozens of people and getting you know dozens of responses quite fun to meet the fans uh and it kind of takes the email list into a live thing and then molly's asking questions and she'll interact with like a smaller subset of people so it's kind of a fun little it's like a good community situation we're having a good time and it's a it's

SPEAKER_236: got like you keep saying it's got great network effects it's like just all of it all our universe

SPEAKER_155: is colliding it's still like i've gotten molly like i don't know a couple dozen free subscribers she's gotten me a dozen or so and it's like a nice little we're not doing paid sub stacks it's just

SPEAKER_210: for us to share our thoughts once in a while uh and i just like shout out to the sub stack team for

SPEAKER_52: making a great product you know it was kind of like a mid product you know like i was like yeah and

SPEAKER_20: then i i got the app and i'm just like actually you know what hey let's make a note of this

SPEAKER_00: producer nick can i get the uh ceo of uh sub stack back on the program and then let's do it i had him on when it started and i was like yeah oh yeah i still don't think it's a good business i'm not sure if it's a great business what they're in um making 10 but i'm kind of glad that somebody's

SPEAKER_52: making free software in the world that's kind of kick ass so i just want to have them back on and give them his flowers it's a great idea i love it all right anyway that's all coming up tomorrow

SPEAKER_364: all right see you then